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alphabet and ijekavica. This wasn't some fringe linguistic nationalism, this was state policy done by unitarists themselves. After 1967 the scholarly consensus in
Croatia was that Croatian was a separate language precluding any potential use of Cyrillic in the future, nevermind the fact that it wasn't even used anywhere among Croats prior to 1967.
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should most definitely not be returned in the “name in native language” field. P.S. There already is a
Cyrillic rendering of his name in the first sentence of the lede. I am not opposed to including it in the article, but it simply does not belong in field “name in native language”. That's not how you write his native language.
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False equivalence. Stalin was born in the
Russian Empire where the dominant and official language was Russian, and the infobox also includes Georgian in the native name field. Tito was born in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia where the official language was never written in Cyrillic. The Cyrillic name
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Also to remind everyone, the actual rendering of the infobox "native_name" parameter does not annotate the value as such to the readers, so readers aren't even informed that this string of foreign letters is a "native name". This argument sounds like it's for meant for editors who see that parameter
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Secondly, extending
Cyrillic to Croat-majority Croatia is a pars pro toto logical fallacy. Even language unitarists did not try to impose Cyrillic on Croatia. Croatia in Yugoslavia had its own variety of Serbo-Croatian called “hrvatskosrpski” or Croatoserb which was exclusively written in the latin
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the relevant criterion here for inclusion is the answer to the question - is an average
English reader going to commonly encounter the topic's name in this format / script, would it help them to have it noted here? As there is a body of work written in Serbian Cyrillic about him, it's fair to say
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His native name is the same as his name in
English, so this parameter would have been unnecessary but for the fact that in his native language two scripts are used, and when his name is written down in the non-Latin script it is no longer the same, script-wise. Therefore, using this parameter to
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Maclean, Fitzroy (1980). Tito: A Pictorial
Biography. McGraw-Hill. ISBN 978-0-07-044671-7. is pure hagiography. it likely does list the bare bones facts and has lots of photos, but even though its from a western mainstream publisher, its entirely pro tito, so not a balanced account. i question
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I checked the article history and I see the
Cyrillic spelling has been in the lead for several years now. It should stay unless we can identify complaints from an average English reader to this effect. Note average English reader, not the average Tito supporter or detractor.
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To remind everyone, the
Serbian Cyrillic wikipedia exists for Tito. It does not contain any representation of his name on Latin characters, but it does contain a Latin translation of the same page where this is a significant information in the same infobox we are discussing
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Serbo-Croatian
Cyrillic script is far more pertinent to Josip Broz Tito than any other leaders you mention. Tito is notable not for being born/raised in Zagorje, Croatia or Slovenia, but for leading a country whose primary language had two official, fully equal scripts,
2429:
There are a few things to unpack here. I removed the Cyrillic not on the presumption that Serbo-Croatian is not a single language nor was is about the “Kajkavian dialect being a supradialect under a wider language vs. its own language” which was a topic brought up by
2445:
To write Tito's native name in Cyrillic because some parts of the Serbo-Croatian sprachraum (not his birth place!) use Cyrillic is akin to writing Beijing-born Xi Jinping's native name in Portuguese because one specific part of China, that is Macau, uses Portuguese.
2841:: I'm not opposed to removing lead sentence clutter by putting native name stuff into annotations. As for the infobox, annotating or even outright removing inscriptions of the person's name in a closely associated language — this is not conventional practice.
2469:. Were Tito to have presided over only one republic in federal Yugoslavia that did not use Cyrillic, perhaps this would not be the case, but he presided over the whole country straight from the headquarters in Belgrade, SR Serbia. –
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dialect being a supradialect under a wider language vs. its own language are other topics that need not be discussed here. SC Cyrillic writing of Josip Broz Tito's name should be returned to the infobox.
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I would strongly suggest to include this information on English wikipedia below nationality. This would be the same as on Serbian Cyrillic wikipedia and I think it would be right and acceptable choice.
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it's possible that they'll encounter it, so we should keep it. There is a much larger volume in Latin scripts (both English and Croatian), so the real nuance here is whether this is worthy of inline
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Pavelić presided over a country with a similar percentage of Serbs to Tito's Yugoslavia. Your point over where he presided from and his notability is irrelevant. The infobox asks for his name in his
2649:(per Manual of Style), and there has been a lot of interest in them among authors who used this language and alphabet. The distinction between Latin and Cyrillic scripts here may mean something you
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The native name parameter needs a standardization at a Knowledge-wide level. I'm not aware of a biography that presently denotes native name languages in the infobox (cf.
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There can't possibly be two major World figures with presented native name on Serbian Cyrillic, both born in Croatia, unless there is some interest in this presentation.
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whether it should be in further reading, and i would question its use as a source for this article. i havent checked to see if it was used. (user: mercurywoodrose)
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Looks to me that Barack Obama was born on Hawaii, and I see no Ōlelo Hawai official language representation of his name. Hence, we have a double standard here imo.
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Looks to me that Barack Obama was born on Hawaii, and I see no Ōlelo Hawai official language representation of his name. Hence, we have a double standard here imo.
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On the Evaluation section of the article, it includes a statement by Dominic McGoldrick. I did some research into who he is, he is a law professor.
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is Tito's own personal diary. Written in the latin alphabet. This should be conclusive proof that his native writing was indeed the latin alphabet.
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language. Not the language of the country or place he ruled from. Tito was raised in an environment that used and still uses the latin alphabet
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Then we should change the parameter. I would not object to the use of another parameter that does not denote the Cyrillic as his native name.
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and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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record the native name in the aspect in which it differs from English is consistent with the purpose of the parameter. I agree with Vipz. —
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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The Cyrillic form in the infobox should be removed as it was not "his native language". I see the exact thing happening with Tesla's name.
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The Cyrillic form in the infobox should be removed as it was not "his native language". I see the exact thing happening with Tesla's name.
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Again, there's a body of scholarly work about both of these people written in Serbian Cyrillic, because both of them are indeed
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Any yet, the " due weight" suggests using Cyrillic, but at the same time it means little to the average English reader?
2767:, interesting read. Particularly "but it's immaterial, as it means comparatively little to the average English reader".
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I also agree with Vipz for the reasons stated above. The Cyrillic form of the name should be returned to the infobox.
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is applicable here, but it's a matter of editorial discretion whether this label and text is clutter or not. --
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acknowledged as such during the subject's lifetime. Languages spoken by Tito are documented in a paragraph in
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A publication by a legal expert is an appropriate source for information about legal matters (human rights).
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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I am not the supporter or detractor but the observer of the Cyrillic spelling used on English Knowledge.
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applies here. Arguments should be based on that, not on assertions of some sort of a conspiracy. --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2916:. Is he really qualified to make this statement? He is not a historian or political scientist.
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placement or should it perhaps be in an annotation so it doesn't clutter the initial sentence.
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might also support this, while standardization of the native name parameter is resolved.
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so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please
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Is wikipedia true to itself or driven by some unknown drivers of the universe? Thanks
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Is wikipedia true to itself or driven by some unknown drivers of the universe? Thanks
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the subject's native language. This relies on the presumption that Serbo-Croatian
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I see it now, the infobox is using this: native_name = {{nobold|Јосип Броз Тито}
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Were it to become a new practice, it could be denoted for Josip Broz Tito as
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Evaluation section, why is a Law professor quoted as a source?
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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2397:The native_name is not and can not be on Cyrillic.
2558:Here is a paradox, there is a Serbian wiki page,
2373:Here is a paradox, there is a Serbian wiki page,
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2797:, would you support this?
2730:Maybe review the template
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2335:§ Family and personal life
2309:Native name in SC Cyrillic
2110:Referencing and citation:
1976:project's importance scale
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88:if needed
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