2997:"I am not sure, as I said earlier, that one can persuade people that Jesus did exist as long as they are ready to explain the entire phenomenon of historical Jesus and earliest Christianity either as an evil trick or a holy parable. I had a friend in Ireland who did not believe that Americans had landed on the moon but that they had created the entire thing to bolster their cold-war image against the communists. I got nowhere with him. So I am not at all certain that I can prove that the historical Jesus existed against such an hypothesis and probably, to be honest, I am not even interested in trying.",
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2885:"The alternative thesis... that within thirty years there had evolved such a coherent and consistent complex of traditions about a non-existent figure such as we have in the sources of the Gospels is just too implausible. It involves too many complex and speculative hypotheses, in contrast to the much simpler explanation that there was a Jesus who said and did more or less what the first three Gospels attribute to him.",
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2381:" I feel your apparent attitude is not conducive to discussion and is not in the spirit of Wiki editorship, as is your appeal to rules rather than discussion to communicate. If the third revert you refer to is about the Twelve you should say so, otherwise I don't know what you are referring to. However, as of your earlier comment about you disagreeing with the 12 move, see my response.
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287:: "Then we lose sight of James till St. Paul, three years after his conversion (A.D. 37), went up to Jerusalem. ... On the same occasion, the "pillars" of the Church, James, Peter, and John "gave to me (Paul) and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision" (Galatians 2:9)."
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When I asked about an explanation for those different tonalities, I was fishing for a constructive suggest, if you truly don't find the color coding transparent, how would you clarify what the darker ones represent, Gospels, Acts, Epistles and
Revelation. If you think an explanation is necessary, how
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Communication, which is what we were talking about, is essential to our work and, if there are difficulties, they need to be clarified. When one makes statements such as yours above, one usually needs to show some relevance and some reasoning for the evaluations. Failing to do so makes them appear to
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What do you propose to be done with the "Roman and Local officials" which has the non-officials
Herodias, Salome and Pilate's wife (and "Longinus" isn't an official either)? Why do you want Herod's family to be mixed in with the Romans? The category is a hotchpotch that as is doesn't help the reader.
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I assumed you were unaware of your language. Hopefully now you know how it was perceived. Better adjective than "controversial"? Try something like "contended". So far you are only talking from your own position, so the "our" seemed somewhat inappropriate. I had hoped you'd enter into a dialog on the
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There is nothing controversial about including
Herodias, nor putting Aretas in his rightful place. I see nothing controversial about putting the Twelve in a more easily accessible position seeing as they have been separated from the gospel names and are not included in the gospel name list at all, a
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officials" and by trying to put the apostles in a more transparent position. You admit you didn't even read the rational, yet you start accusing of "bad faith" and "edit warring" with your intent to revert. The only thing I can assume is that you are too close to the material and are over-protective.
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I understand that you didn't like the the two tonality look when you changed it, though your change was contrary to a slim consensus, as
Carlaude's comment above indicates as a reaction to the initial change. I reduced the tonal difference from that which you originally edited out so that it should
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Claiming that such edits are controversial is not helpful to dealing with the matter. There seem to be logical and factual difficulties with the template. I don't think
Carlaude is in the position to use the royal plural when talking about "wasting our time". What is needed is attempts to deal with
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4. Stranger he wants to mix Roman officials with local nobility, while a clear group called "Herod's family" is rejected for this unaccountable claim: "many will not know or see a difference between Roman client kings of & more "normal" Roman officials, the box should be arranged to help people
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and neither is Pilate's wife (which recommends against anything using "officials"), which just leaves "Romans & Nobility" out of your choice as the only one possible given the current lists. There are thus two categories, "Romans" and "Nobility" or better, basically "Herod's family". You said,
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4. First of all the "local nobility" are also Roman officials as they are client kings of Rome. Second even if we lable them with some means of distiguing terms, etc., many people (if not most) will not who is or who or even what the differce if. The templete to help find article about people they
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Interesting, but I agree, we should just keep the template one color. The point of navigation templates is for navigation, and I don't see the multi-tonality really helping navigation very much here. If you want to introduce some subgrouping, then I would say do so with subgroup labels. Thanks!
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Perhaps then you might explain why the writer calls it a ฮฒฮนฮฒฮปฮนฮฟฮฝ in 20:18. It is a book prefaced with a forward and seven letters. The attempted argument you use is against usual understanding of the text, which should suggest that you reconsider if you want to appeal to general readership as you
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As you are so willing to talk about edit warring as you call it, I guess you are expressing your own desires. I made it clear what my intentions were (if you cared to read the edit summaries), by introducing a missing figure, by attempting to clarify the hotchpotch that was mislabeled "Roman
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I have made each of the changes I've listed above as separate edits so that
Carlaude doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater... except separating out Herod's family: the "Roman and Local officials" category needs reconsidering as it also includes Salome and Pilate's Wife (obviously not
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To preserve the basic hotchpotch under one heading, you'll take out the wives and daughter and "Longinus". Well, "Longinus" doesn't fit anyway, but if there were two categories, "Herod's family" and "Romans", you wouldn't need to toss out anyone. Simplicity, transparency, and accuracy. --
2911:"Some writers may toy with the fancy of a 'Christ-myth,' but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar. It is not historians who propagate the 'Christ-myth' theories.",
616:, pg 253, 3rd ed., he cites Revelation 1:4-7 and Revelation 21:22 as classic examples of how Near East epistles are begun and ended in the time it was written. None the less, the current format is fine with me as many people will not know it is an epistle, and it simplifies the table.
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4. As I have said above, the "local nobility" are also Roman officials as they are client kings of Rome and many people (if not most) will not know who is one, the other, or neither. If you are discussing with me then tell me what is wrong with the six different options I gave you.
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3. He also doesn't seem to like the location of the Twelve above the gospel names for easier access, given that they have received special treatment by being separated out of the gospel list. (In the earlier versions which had captions above the lists it was less of a problem.)
2924:"Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was exicuted by crucifiction under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and continued to have followers after his death.",
2977:"I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus. There are a lot of people who want to write sensational books and make a lot of money who say Jesus didn't exist. But I don't know any serious scholar who doubts the existence of Jesus.",
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Does anyone think that it is not clear why
Gospels, Acts, Epistles and Revelation group titles have a different background tone from Jesus Christ, The Twelve and Romans & Herod's Family? If so, do you think it is necessary to explain the different tonalities? --
2413:. If you think citing rules to explain my actions and expectations some how "hinders" communication, then I cannot help that. However, if other people cite guidlines or rules, this does nothing to absolve you of your responsiblity to still follow them.
636::18, which makes it plain that it is not an epistle, calling it a book. The introductory sections should remind one of 2 Macabbees with its covering letters. Ben Sirach has a covering letter as an introduction. It's typical of the era.) --
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Hold on. Are saying now that "Longinus doesn't fit anyway" in your view? I never noticed that-- and I didn't notice you saying this the first 6 to 10 times you brought up either! It was for a totally unrelated reasons that I proposed that
2759:"The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted." -
677:'the "local nobility" are also Roman officials as they are client kings of Rome', but not one of the following Herodias, Salome, Pilate's wife and "Longinus" are "Roman officials". Now could you please respond to my original question,
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See above. Now, as you still haven't answered about using two categories, "Herod's family" and "Romans", despite being asked twice, perhaps you might try now. What's wrong with two accurate but separate categories?? An example of one
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What's wrong with having "Herod's family" separated out and "Romans", putting
Lysanias into Gospel people? It leads to clarity and accuracy. "Longinus" was not an "official" either. "Herodians" is confusing, given its use in
2739:"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Churchโs imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more.โ
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editing, as I tried to clearly indicate what the issues were, but instead of answering those issues you immediately started talking about rules. I'm all for discussion but citing rules is a talk stopper. --
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1. Did I "read the reasoning behind the edits"? You mean in your edit summaries? No-- even if you think the reasoning was there, that is not the purpose of edit summaries. I do not think you even
315:: "Please do not make controversial edits without WP:Consensus, per guidlines you can find at WP:BRD. Some edits would be fine but your constant rvting without consensus is a waste of our time."
2898:"We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place."
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For the record I think we can dicuss where to put
Longinus after the current questions are answered, since it will be simpler then. I think anywhere you want to put him will be fine with me.
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Edits are "controversial" if anyone else doesn't want them. You knew I had reveted them-- but you just ask or didn't discuss why. You just hoped I would like them better the second time.
2350:(nor helpful) to take statements of mine-- that you wasting my time and wasting your own time-- and to claim it is some sort of "royal plural" in which I am only talking about myself.
2858:"I think that there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don't know of any historians today, who doubt the existence of Jesus... So I think that question can be put to rest.",
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I think that there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don't know of any historians today, who doubt the existence of Jesus... So I think that question can be put to rest.
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Pillars & Apostles is a perfectly descriptive term, and a
Biblical one-- but I am open to finding a better one. There is no reason to remove it unless we find a better term.
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Pilate's wife is neither an official nor nobility. "Longinus" is neither an official nor nobility. Even Cornelius the centurion is neither an official nor nobility. Failed. --
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Herodias, Salome and Pilate's Wife were not officials. Obfuscating Herod's family by mixing them with Roman figures is certainly not transparency at work. --
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hinder the collaboration that would be much called for and that would ease the any efforts to preserve any good edits you have made, while removing the bad.
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look less "strange". (I don't think it looks strange at all, but then I guess I'd see why the differences are there.) So let's see if a new consensus arises.
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to rules and accusations says otherwise. It says that you are having difficulties talking. I think we can improve the navbox and I think we have. --
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3. I just dissagree. I consider the 12 better placed between the Gospels and Acts since they are figures in both the Gospels and in Acts. If you get
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who do not know the staus in advance", while one would have thought that most people, even those unknowledgeable in the field, knew about Herod.
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What's wrong with having "Herod's family" separated out and "Romans", putting Lysanias into Gospel people? It leads to clarity and accuracy.
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Yes, I think this is an inherent problem with the categorisation scheme - there's overlap between Apostles and Gospels, etc. We deleted
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598:(a) Use something like "Officials & Noblity". "Romans & Noblity" or "Romans & Herodians" would also be fine with me. Or...
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every edit in the summaries, much less explained the reasoning behind each edit... so I did not seek to "discuss" via edit summaries (
3017:, "The Study of the Synoptic Gospels", in Form Criticism, transled by Fredrick C. Grant (New York: Harper & Brother, 1962) p. 62.
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yes, it is not clear, looks strange, and should be one colour without a clear explanation for the multicolouring in the template.
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5. And exceptionally strange is including Revelation in a category of Epistles which I can't see anyone easily comprehending. --
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1. Of course this is the first you have prought this up, and the first you have discussed your edits at all. I don't refuse to
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Since we are tring to help each other, let me tell you that you are comming across as very condescending and disingenuous.
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and my comments below. I have rvted your THIRD repeat of the controversial & now bad faith edit: namly #3 above.
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2915:, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? 5th revised edition, Downers Grove: Inter-Varsity Press, 1972
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But you have not seemed to have noticed either my response or my letting you know that I have responed. It is
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I first mentioned it when I noticed it at 04:57, 23 September 2009, ie two days ago. He's Roman, but not an
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officials) along with a post-biblically named Longinus and seems only a grab-all of disparate figures. --
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I have made some changes to the template attempting to improve it, to which Carlaude quickily reverts and
2968:, The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2009, 37. ISBN 978-082862624
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2862:, "The Self-Revelation of God in Human History: A Dialogue on Jesus with N. T. Wright", There Is A God,
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Rvting Doktorspin's THIRD repeat of a controversial & now bad faith edit, per WP:BRD. Please STOP.
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5. Claiming a "book" (as John uses the term) cannot also be an not an epistle would be, for starters,
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So to me, of the six choices, you have really only given sound reasons against (a) i and (a) iii.
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You are manking this difficult for no reason. Please stop making such edits without consensus per
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This I will have to accept for the moment as I guess it comes down to different perspectives. --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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And you've still haven't supplied any reasoning. My proposal is not a mixed list, so how is it
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2964:"Jesus is in no danger of suffering Catherine (of Alexandria)'s fate as an unhistorical myth"
2955:, Introduction to the New Testament, vol. 2, (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1982) pgs. 76 & 164.
2475:. We are supposed to be trying to work together to improve Wiki; can we get back to that? --
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Please refrain from making accusations, Carlaude, when you describe your edits. You wrote: "
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Perhaps you didn't read the reasoning behind the edits because I mentioned Herodias
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If I can read around your non-answers it would seem you seem to have these views.
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than "controversial" to use in such an edit summary, I would be glad to hear it.
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because there's no evidence that it designates a particular group of people.
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I have responded to your "original question" twice above. Stop repeating it.
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It means they are part of Herod's family - see the heading on the left.
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For the thrid time, I repeat. I have responded to your question above.
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edits that have been reverted by another editor-- controversial edits.
2902:, The Historical Figure of Jesus, New York: Penguin Press, 1993, xiv)
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all appear in Acts. Your edit created more problems than it solved.--
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Feel free to discuss your proposal(s) with others here. If you get
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in order to support your view. You were after all responsible for
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listed under "Roman and local Acts names" or "Epistles" or both?
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that Peter was a personal disciple of Jesus", (emphasis added)
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1. For some reason Carlaude refuses to include the NT person
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Acts now? As I said, Aretas is only mentioned in 2 Cor. --
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Without the misspelling it has no descriptive problem. --
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The Evidence for Jesus. Louisville: Westminster, 1985, 29)
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Your proposal is no more simple, no more accurate, and is
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be simply insult. You've now talked about me 1) making
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2. Aretas IV is located in a list of "Roman and local"
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the task of beginning the dicussion if you still want
2928:, The Real Jesus, San Francisco: Harper, 1996, 121.
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Of course if you think there is a better, more NPOV,
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5. There is no such verse as "Revelation 20:18," but
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with all the sleights of the WP:GAME article and 7)
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2542:I like the color coding (as it is now). Good job.
2803:harvnb error: no target: CITEREFCharlesworth2006 (
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2178:can leave out Longinus if you want to to do so.
670:"Herodians" is confusing, given its use in Mark
329:names as Aretas is only found in 2 Cor 11:32.
3003:http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.html
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2490:Let's add calling my participation 6) playing
2987:http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20090113fta.mp3
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2467:. As you show a liking for rules, check out
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285:Catholic Encyclopedia: St. James the Less
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2985:Radio Show, relevant audio available at
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614:How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth
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351:03:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
158:This template is supported by
1:
3043:Template-Class Bible articles
2694:14:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
2579:is a tiny minority view, see
112:and see a list of open tasks.
3048:NA-importance Bible articles
2680:01:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
2663:11:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
2642:17:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
2627:13:35, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
7:
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3053:WikiProject Bible articles
3001:, interview, available at
2723:18:59, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
2704:What do the italics mean?
297:18:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
280:18:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
265:06:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
246:06:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
232:all appear in the Gosples
2604:03:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
2569:17:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
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507:5. Like it or not, the
2459:, 4) coming across as
2348:WP:Assuming good faith
1577:Mary mother of J. Mark
708:. It is a good book.
138:
2999:Crossan, John Dominic
2926:Johnson, Luke Timothy
2538:color coding sections
2222:who not responded to
401:Aretas IV Philopatris
253:Pillars of the church
230:Mary, mother of Jesus
137:
124:Christianity articles
2981:, Discussion on the
2868:Roy Abraham Varghese
2839:The named reference
2651:would you do it? --
1144:Mary mother of Jesus
1138:Mary mother of James
1000:blind man, Bethsaida
911:New Testament people
591:4. So we can either:
196:. The result of the
2457:controversial edits
1647:Simeon of Jerusalem
1162:Widow's son of Nain
1078:Joseph of Arimathea
632:(Sorry, Revelation
468:want to learn about
93:Christianity portal
2610:Color coding again
1653:Simon the Sorcerer
1451:Ananias (Damascus)
720:Book of Revelation
509:Book of Revelation
399:2. So do you want
139:
34:content assessment
2949:cannot be doubted
2887:Dunn, James D. G.
2799:Charlesworth 2006
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115:Christianity
106:Christianity
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59:Christianity
40:WikiProjects
29:
2983:Infidel Guy
2864:Antony Flew
2555:โPreceding
2469:WP:civility
1571:(John) Mark
1469:Aristarchus
1349:Bartholomew
1253:Evangelists
963:Individuals
3027:Categories
2945:is certain
2818:Grant 1995
2801:, p.ย xxiii
2346:It is not
2000:Revelation
1918:Diotrephes
1730:Agrippa II
1607:Priscilla
1369:Evangelist
1339:The Twelve
1301:Samaritans
1289:Proselytes
1259:Godfearers
1213:Theophilus
1177:ben Gurion
994:Bartimaeus
939:Historical
610:Gordon Fee
476:in advance
199:discussion
2845:help page
2841:Dohertyms
2500:repeating
2341:adjective
2064:Full List
1936:Hymenaeus
1906:Aretas IV
1900:Archippus
1894:Alexander
1888:Achaichus
1855:Quirinius
1809:Cornelius
1724:Agrippa I
1689:Trophimus
1499:Dionysius
1493:Demetrius
1487:Cornelius
1475:Bar-jesus
1307:Sanhedrin
1295:Sadducees
1283:Pharisees
1265:Herodians
1247:Disciples
1225:Zechariah
1219:Zacchaeus
1174:Nicodemus
1168:Nathanael
1030:Elizabeth
933:Christian
474:as these
289:75.0.9.42
272:75.0.9.42
2820:, p.ย 199
2782:, p.ย 145
2686:Frietjes
2634:Frietjes
2557:unsigned
2192:official
2117:Epistles
2110:Synoptic
2100:NT Canon
2087:Timeline
2083:Parables
2079:Miracles
2075:Ministry
2020:Apollyon
1990:Syntyche
1978:Philetus
1972:Philemon
1912:Crescens
1880:Epistles
1869:Tiberius
1829:Lysanias
1823:Longinus
1781:Gospels
1761:Herodias
1711:Gospels
1695:Tychicus
1641:Silvanus
1619:Sapphira
1589:Nicholas
1583:Matthias
1517:Gamaliel
1511:Eutychus
1481:Barnabas
1389:Matthias
1102:Longinus
1006:Caiaphas
988:Barabbas
970:Alphaeus
360:Herodias
320:Herodias
257:StAnselm
238:Carlaude
190:deletion
30:template
2763:, p.ย 16
2743:, p.ย 34
2700:Italics
2509:". --
2506:mantras
2232:mantras
2125:General
2121:Pauline
2106:Gospels
2008:Antipas
1966:Nymphas
1930:Erastus
1677:Timothy
1671:Theudas
1665:Stephen
1659:Sopater
1613:Publius
1565:Manahen
1457:Apollos
1385:Matthew
1365:Beloved
1325:Zealots
1319:Scribes
1207:Susanna
1114:Malchus
1090:Lazarus
1054:Joachim
1036:Gabriel
1012:Cleopas
955:Gospels
704:. Read
516:epistle
220:Note--
213:Pillars
2866:&
2715:Anselm
2407:rather
2328:gives
2326:WP:BRD
2296:WP:BRD
2262:? --
2216:Twice.
2194:. --
1984:Phoebe
1848:Festus
1776:Romans
1767:Salome
1601:Philip
1547:Lucius
1505:Dorcas
1463:Aquila
1439:Agabus
1409:Thomas
1397:Philip
1373:Patmos
1345:Andrew
1241:Angels
1234:Groups
1189:Simeon
1183:Salome
1126:Martha
1096:Legion
1072:Joseph
1060:Joanna
1042:Gestas
1024:Dismas
930:views:
922:Christ
582:listed
568:WP:BRD
380:. --
327:gospel
228:, and
36:scale.
2504:{my}
2494:games
2473:WP:PA
2451:, 2)
2405:I am
2228:games
2071:Jesus
2038:Beast
2032:Woman
1948:Junia
1796:Felix
1683:Titus
1637:Silas
1625:Sceva
1559:Lydia
1529:Jason
1423:Peter
1405:Judas
1393:Peter
1084:Joses
1018:Devil
982:Annas
919:Jesus
702:WP:OR
672:, 2)
629:Mark.
378:twice
313:warns
222:Jesus
202:was "
64:Bible
28:This
2943:"It
2930:ISBN
2872:ISBN
2824:help
2805:help
2786:help
2767:help
2747:help
2719:talk
2690:talk
2656:spin
2638:talk
2620:spin
2565:talk
2513:spin
2479:spin
2471:and
2427:spin
2421:rush
2389:spin
2385:--
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2241:less
2198:spin
2154:spin
2150:--
1954:Mary
1786:Acts
1716:Acts
1595:Paul
1553:Luke
1429:Paul
1417:Acts
1407:)ย โข
1375:)ย โข
1361:John
1271:Magi
1120:Mark
1108:Luke
976:Anna
845:spin
806:spin
777:spin
730:spin
685:spin
681:--
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492:spin
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417:spin
384:spin
344:spin
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276:talk
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242:talk
204:keep
2334:new
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2220:you
2176:you
2073::ย (
1403:, (
586:aka
514:an
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234:and
192:on
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2711:St
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2676:โล
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2596:โ
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2123:,
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2089:)
2085:,
2081:,
2077:,
1399:โข
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1391:โข
1387:โข
1383:โข
1379:โข
1371:,
1367:,
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1981:ยท
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