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of restrictions on the churches, he says, "Even in such a basically
Russian and historically Orthodox region as Rostov-on-Don, the Orthodox are one of the most disadvantaged groups... in the religious sector of the population" (p. 205). By contrast, Christel Lane, whose fine sociological examination of many of Pospielovsky's issues is mysteriously omitted from Pospielovsky's bibliographyc, laims that the Orthodox Church "receive distinctly more favorable treatment than other religious organizations" (Christian Religion in the Soviet Union , p. 33; also relevant is her The Rites of Rulers... The Soviet Case ). The statement about Rostov-on-Don is based on an erroneous interpretation of the statistics in his tables, as well.
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Pospielovsky. NONE. As he is a college
Professor I think questioning his intelligence is beyond the pale so what other motive would he have to re-use, repeat "pro-church propaganda published during the revolution?" So that doesn't make him a liar by repeating lies? Again obvious but not to you that he and Kirill and Christopher Andrew and the New York Times and Time Magazine and Hilarion (Alfeyev) and Yakovlev your list is growing so large so fast soon it will include everyone in the world but you.
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1551:. You calling our Priests liars is beyond upsetting however I am of a skeptical mind and would and so desire to know all of the data as I am uncomfortable shutting anyone out least of all a patriot. If you continue to fight and not compromise you can see what they will result in. Instead come here and work to give your side of it and we can include that, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF CENSURING AND OR DELETING SOURCED MATERIAL.
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in late 1921 when its leader, Patriarch Tikhon, refused to sell off church valuables to raise foreign currency needed to feed famine victims, of whom there were millions. This was the context in which some 45 priests were executed for organising resistance to
Trotsky’s campaign to seize wealth from the church. This harsh policy has to be seen in the context of a famine emergency, not as a malicious attack on the church.
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would declare that the excommunication was a misunderstanding based on the belief that these killings were officially instigated (however, they were never officially repudiated either). Later Soviet authors would claim central responsibility for these actions, however, including
Yaroslavsky (who was a participant in these killings) who justified the campaign by claiming that the church was fighting against them.
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1854:. Everyone has critics his works are peer reviewed. What you posted does not mean his work is invalided. ::::Knowledge IS NOT THE PLACE to attack and attempt to dis-credit academia. Is there a book or books that say Pospielovsky is wrong and this right about any of this? By your standard anything with a critical remark made toward it is now not credible.
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of the Winter Palace (only two more councils would occur for the remainder of Soviet history, one in 1945 and the other in 1971) Tikhon refused to take sides in the civil war, although the official propaganda presented him as well as the Church as standing in support of the whites, and killed clergy in massive numbers allegedly for this reason.
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that he knows are inflated (for example, he cites the state's absurd claim that in 1959 there were twenty-two thousand
Russian Orthodox churches, so that he can say that by 1964 the state had closed fifteen thousand). And, although I have no evidence to support me, I get very uncomfortable with the Furov document (volume 1)
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helpful. The other issue is that it uses the weasel word "alleged" rather than describing the positions of various parties directly. The next sentence it talks about excommunication but there is zero context to understand just what excommunication is being talk about. In fact, what is being referenced here is mentioned in
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more sources that discuss these events. This means that the sensational items don't need to be exclusively sourced to
Pospielovsky. Those editors who can read Russian could certainly be helpful. Now that admins are watching this article, it is unlikely that any side will be able to win purely by edit warring.
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Thank you for checking things out in such depth. As you can see I share these concerns about the balance of the article. I agree that the title is too expansive. Indeed, as you point out, the position as regards Islam is barely mentioned and already the article has been tagged as too long. However I
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Issuing a decree was one thing, but disestablishing the church in practice was another. In places
Orthodox feeling ran high and there were instances in which congregations clashed with Bolsheviks over the control of church property. Popular support for Orthodoxy was significantly undermined, however,
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In
November 1917, following the collapse of the tsarist government, a council of the Russian Orthodox church reestablished the patriarchate (it had been abolished under Peter the Great in 1721) and elected Metropolitan Tikhon of Moscow (Vassily I. Bellavin) as patriarch 11 days following the storming
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Pospielovsky is a traditionalist historian with a strong commitment to his
Orthodox faith...the lack of an objective tone frequently detracts from the book's persuasiveness.His single-minded focus on Orthodoxy also leads him to exaggerate the relative difficulties of his church. For example, speaking
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Unfortunately, the issue of
Pospielovsky is largely a sideshow. The issue isn't whether the article should trust him completely, the issue is whether an anonymous IP can hold hostage a serious subject and deny that there was anti-religious persecution in Soviet Russia/the Soviet Union. My experience
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For the statement sourced to , I would like to see what the source actually says. If it gives an numerical estimates rather than merely saying "large numbers", I'd prefer that would be used instead. This article doesn't appear to have any mention of a death toll so that sort of information would be
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The last sentence is clearly a violation of NPOV, presenting the position of Davis (the cite) as though it is fact, and then alleging that "official propaganda" says otherwise. There is no citation for this declaration of what the "official propaganda" has said. There are sources that disagree with
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The work is permeated with an attitude of suffused indignation. Sources he likes he uses uncritically (for example, in volume 1, pages 34-36, he draws on a most suspicious "secret report" of Lenin), and seldom if ever does he question a samizdat claim. When it suits his purposes he will use figures
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Excuse me? I did not in any way question Pospielovsky's character, and did not call him a "liar". Rather, I questioned the quality of his work: the sources he uses i.e. pro-church primary sources have proven to be unreliable. Pospielovsky was not alive during the period he wrote about, so he has to
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No this is an English Wiki you can not write articles in Russian and post them here. I want you to know I despise the fact that we are bickering, as if you are Russian then we are..... at the least not to be fighting each other. YOU KNOW THAT. I would like to gather what you know and make a section
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Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev was the first bishop killed by the Bolsheviks on January 25, 1918. He had consistently opposed the revolution, and he was severely beaten as well as tortured before being shot outside of the Monastery of the Caves. He prayed for the Lord's forgiveness before being shot
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This order to seize property was carried out with ruthless violence by Red soldiers. They often opened fire on crowds that surrounded churches in an attempt to defend them and on religious processions in protest against Church persecution. Thousands were killed in this way, especially in the spring
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and can tell that page was POV-pushed in a wrong direction, instead of actual improvement. Not to challenge any particular sources, but just for starters, the newer version tells: "The vast majority of the Russian Orthodox clerics sympathized with the Whites, and many actively supported them." Not
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Most likely there are many sources available on this religious persecution. Though the IP is editing aggressively, he has made some valid points on the talk page. See the bolded items in his comment above, which are academic reviews of Pospielovsky. Anybody with a bit of time could probably locate
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did not happen in 1917 it happened 5 years after that, since according to your standard here the Russian Revolution of 1917 does not mark the beginning of the USSR? So the USSR wasn't founded by Lenin after the Revolution in 1917? I mean your saying that the Red forces could not have had campaigns
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During the Russian Civil War, the red army massacred large numbers of clergy and believers often on grounds of alleged support for the Whites; much of these killings were not officially instigated from the top, but were done on the initiative of local units of soldiers. In later years, the church
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No excuse me, and you are? But again that's obvious but it still has to be pointed out to you that you are no scholar and if you are please create an account, log in and we'll go from there. The source has the page number. You have provided no scholar or scholars that states what you stated about
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I went ahead and cleaned up the citations to a short-footnote version, so the reference list wasn't completely cluttered. Went ahead and added ISBNs and formatted the citations to the updated Knowledge style. Several references left for whoever wishes to tackle this next that need searching for
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He does not make any pretence of neutrality; he is on the side of the believers. Anti-religious struggle, Pospielovsky emphasizes, is central to communist thought from Marx to the present Soviet leaders. He sometimes seems to exaggerate the priority which the rulers have given to anti-religious
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In the beginning of the USSR, a campaign began to be done to make the state atheist by removing the influence of all religion, and the Russian Orthodox church especially, from Soviet society from the earliest days after the revolution in 1917, continuing until the fall of the USSR in 1991. The
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actually made a lot of effort for the Church to remain neutral, and only later was forced to take an anti-Bolshevik position. What exactly Tikhon did is not really described in this article. The page mentioned many different episodes, but it does not provide a coherent description of all most
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Pospielovsky's book was not peer-reviewed or published by an academic press... Rather, it was issued by a commercial publisher and even contains a lot of grammatical and typographical errors. Pospielovsky bypassed the process of peer review because his work is unscientific. And the scholarly
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policy when this conflicts with other objectives. It is misleading, for example, to say that Lenin made atheism 'the immediate political task of the party' (p. 18); he was much more concerned with winning and holding power, and appealed for support to religious minorities such as the Muslims
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I added the tag because this article relies heavily on Pospielovsky, yet does not mention this man once in the article itself. I have a feeling that this article may need a complete rewrite as well because as the above section notes, there's no mention of the Jewish pogroms and the Tsarist
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The material is problematic in that there is no attribution to the allegations. The way that it is written comes across as sensationalisc, with talk about drunken orgies. Even if sources were cited, it would be inappropriate because the text is clearly derived from primary sources.
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The article is almost entirely based on the work of Pospielovsky, who is not a reliable source and not reflective of a consensus on the topic. He takes a firmly pro-church approach, uses dubious sources, and gets many facts wrong. Here is the scholarly community's view of his work:
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to say that "Tikhon refused to take sides in the civil war". We should instead list the reliable sources that disagree with each other on this issue. In addition, this source is saying that the killings were perpetrated "by the Tsar’s troops" against "the St. Petersburg workers".
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For the most part, all this article does is take contents of Pospelovsky's work and present them as though they are facts of history. Pospelovsky is not in any way reflective of a consensus on this topic. His claims need to be properly attributed wherever appropriate.
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Lenin's decree on the separation of church and state on January 23, 1918 (Julian calendar) deprived the formerly official church of its status of legal person, the right to own property or to teach religion in both state and private schools or to any group of
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initial anti-religious campaign after the revolution focused especially against the Orthodox church and it was characterized by brutal terror tactics that killed thousands accompanied by legislation meant to deprive the Church of its capacity to function.
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After the October Revolution, in January 1918, the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Tikhon, issued a message to the faithful, in which he denounced the Bolsheviks as “monsters of the human race” and excommunicated all who should support the
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As anti-Jewish pogroms were a feature of the Russian Civil War, perhaps there was more than one anti-religious campaign. I think the title has been substantially removed, but I am not sure that it may need to be rephrased to something like
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Pospielovsky is not a reliable source. He himself is a staunch Russian Orthodox partisan pursuing an agenda of insulting the Russian government. He gets the facts wrong, uses dubious sources, and omits sources that contradict his agenda.
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Based on this, I think it would be a good idea to provide details on the fact that there are different views amongst reliable sources as to what exactly was going on, rather than presenting only one source and not even mentioning it.
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13. For the purpose of securing to the workers real freedom of conscience, the church is to be separated from the state and the school from the church, and the right of religious and anti-religous propaganda is accorded to every
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From there, it gives a list of "atrocities", all from one source: Pospielovsky. I'm not sure if this is appropriate for a Knowledge article, and all of this substantial quoting from a single source may be a copyright violation.
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also feel that part of the problem might arise from the way that the article is geared to focus on one side of the issue - opposition to the ROC, rather than looking at the ROC as such. So perhaps a new title might be
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You misunderstand. Macmillan is not an academic publisher, and the book was not peer-reviewed by the University of Michigan. Rather, Google Books got a copy of the book from a library of the University of Michigan.
2033:"Google Books got a copy of the book from a library of the University of Michigan." Why would the University of Michigan provide a book to Google that is not credible source material? At least without a disclaimer.
1482:Получив возможность выехать из Нижнего Новгорода окончательно, Преосвященный Иоаким отправился в Крым, к своему сыну. В 1921 году, в доме под Севастополем, где Владыка проживал, он погиб от рук неизвестных бандитов.
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archive link, as well as fixing and statements throughout. Other general cleanup, copyediting, and trimming is required, among other issues. Overall, did the best I could with such an outdated citation list.
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He then takes up the issue of Soviet antireligious practice from the 1920s to the 1980s. Here he relies mainly upon samizdat documents and some often overlooked eye-witness accounts from Russian emigres.
1571:)and not a scholar with credentials like a history professor at a University you will no chance at people taking his word over the Soviet archives and you are here editwarring and wasting people's time.
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of 1918. Shooting down of religious processions are well documented in Voronezh, Shatsk (Tambov province), and Tula (where thirteen were killed and many wounded, including Bishop Kornilii).
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Please share your thoughts on what else needs to be edited in this article. I'll start by trying to fix some of the things I've highlighted but if there's anything else let me know.--
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If a noted scholar says something and then is sourced, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can remove it. Provide a source in English that supports your contention.
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More mixed and unclear messages from sources at Knowledge. According to The Four Deuces from the WP:RS verifiability chat board Pospielovsky is considered a reliable source
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Source is broken. Source , Article Two of the Soviet Union's Constitution, is not being presented accurately and does not say what it's being used to support. It states:
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persecution of Muslims. If the article is going to be about anti-religious campaigns, it should be inclusive of all faiths. Otherwise, this article should be renamed to
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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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WOW it must be so easy to validate your way of thinking in that anything opposed to it is a lie. Also you can't come on here and start DELETING sourced information.
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There is no page number specified. There is no attribution of this claim's source. And basic things like dates and specific locations are missing. Why is this?
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but I have not way to confirm who he is. I would like to maybe start with an article here on him and then include him here in this article or the main article
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Please provide clarification on who A. G. Kuptsov is. Editors on the Russian wiki say A. G. Kupstov is a nutjob and no academic or anyone creditable at all.
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The final sentence isn't cited at all. It says "later Soviet authors" but doesn't name them or provide any sort of time frame to pin them down. It mentions
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the publisher is Macmillan and the origin and or where it was peer reviewed was the University of Michigan. People don't have time for this kind of things.
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get his information from other places. And where does he get his information from? He gets it from pro-church propaganda published during the revolution.
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Your opinion does not count here. Please post a citation tag and then after a month or so if no source is provided you can then remove the content.
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No your comment "Macmillan is not an academic publisher" is wrong here is Macmillan/St Martin's online (St Martin is owned by Macmillan
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that was a lie until 1922 they were hallucinations to themselves and told each other that they can't have campaigns until 1922. As the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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For example, on what sources are these allegations based? I will assume that they are derived from pro-Christian primary sources.
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This contradicts another part of the article which states that the Soviet Union was supportive of Muslims practicing Islam.
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that's after the IP comments above. Since the page is protected I'd like to add the bibliography I created for the article
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This topic is covered extensively in Russian, but not in English. So I don't have to provide an English language source.
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until after they had campaigns in the civil war right? Again why do people have to point out to you the obvious. So the
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1850:(born 1935) (Russian: Дмитрий Поспеловский, Dmitry Pospelovsky) is a historian, a professor emeritus of history at the
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Pospielovsky's sources are wrong. The fact is that he was killed by unidentified bandits. So I"m removing this part
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This incident had nothing to do with the Bolsheviks or the Russian government. The scholar Arno Mayer in his book
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International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 64, No. 2 (Spring,1988), pp. 303-304
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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1963:"Founded in 1952, St Martin's Press is one of the ten largest general publishers in the United States and an
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This is the only mention of schools in the article, and it says nothing about teaching religion in schools.
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Beyond this, there are other problems such as the fact that there is little to no background information.
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210:(USSR) on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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The second source is a link to wikisource, but it's a dead link. Googling the name of the source finds
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says that the Metropolitan's death was undirected and "unrelated to any grand design or campaign."
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say that in? Where specifically is that comment "unrelated to any grand design or campaign." from?
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I have fully protected this article two weeks due to the edit war. If editors disagree on whether
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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There was only one Russian Civil War that involved anti-religious campaign. No need for years.
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Stop wasting time and dodging the request. Please provide credentials on who A. G. Kuptsov is.
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This can be solved by instead adding a citation needed tag instead of removal of the content.
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in dealing with such fanatics is that there is very little common ground to be discovered.
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In Voronezh, seven nuns who had prayed for a White victory were boiled in a cauldron of tar
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How can there be a USSR campaign that wrapped up before the USSR was even formed (1922)?
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but doesn't wikilink to his article. The sources of that article should be of use here.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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are open to you. If agreement is reached, this protection can be lifted. Thank you,
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So the incident above does not really fit the concept of religious persecution.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090816211643/http://www.regels.org/humanright.htm
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wasn't an campaign either carried out by the Soviet. From what you are saying
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Just so we are clear if your person Kuptsov is a bogus pamphleteer (like say
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How did you come to that conclusion? Who called him a "bogus pamphleteer"?
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important publisher of trade, mass market, college and scholarly titles."'
472:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
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The American Historical Review, Vol. 95, No. 3 (Jun., 1990), pp. 874-875
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Other admins should feel free to modify my protection as necessary.
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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Godless Communists: Atheism and Society in Soviet Russia, 1917-1932
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literature above proves that Pospielovsky's work is deeply flawed.
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Macmillan is one of the biggest academic publishers in existence.
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in the article here under the title Criticisms. You have posted
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Opposition to the Orthodox Church during the Russian Civil War
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Start-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles
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because that seems to be what it's currently largely about.
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Your opinions about the literature are not very interesting.
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and blessed his executors; asking the Lord to forgive them.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Here is their public education book division for example.
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Russian Review, Vol. 49, No. 3, (Jul., 1990), pp. 371-373
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the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force
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No.. Here is one of his books here used in the article
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Anti-religious campaign during the Russian Civil War
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Russian Orthodox Church during the Russian Civil War
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Slavic Review, Vol. 47, No. 4 (Winter, 1988), p. 753
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This article has been checked against the following
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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
2166:A lot of good work here! However, I am looking at
2051:Изъятие церковных ценностей в России в 1922 году
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1998:http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=6232857
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2602:Low-importance philosophy of religion articles
2455:This message was posted before February 2018.
2142:Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union
1549:Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union
2341:With this information, I'm not sure if it's
2597:Start-Class philosophy of religion articles
2176:important events in chronological order...
1953:http://www.palgrave.com/aboutus/martins.asp
19:
2637:Low-importance Start-Class Russia articles
2607:Philosophy of religion task force articles
2425:I have just modified one external link on
2234:so that we can have a more rounded view?
1992:books published by St. Martin/Macmillan.
1697:. Well...............As so now Professor
2707:Low-importance European history articles
2360:Moving down a bit, we come across this:
2249:Article relies too heavily on one source
1209:was not a Soviet until like maybe 1922?
741:This article is within the scope of the
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2647:History of Russia task force articles
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1475:Ioakim, Archbishop of Nizhni Novgorod
1125:Template:WikiProject European history
764:Template:WikiProject Military history
2447:http://www.regels.org/humanright.htm
1102:This article is within the scope of
997:This article is within the scope of
589:This article is within the scope of
458:This article is within the scope of
311:This article is within the scope of
200:This article is within the scope of
95:This article is within the scope of
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1273:] of section starting at line 139?
208:Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
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2486:(last update: 5 June 2024)
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2287:this. From
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720:World War I
597:WikiProject
30:Start-class
2551:Categories
2518:Report bug
2146:LoveMonkey
2120:EdJohnston
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2055:LoveMonkey
2035:LoveMonkey
2014:LoveMonkey
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1569:Tony Alamo
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1505:LoveMonkey
1455:References
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1435:Arno Mayer
1411:The Furies
1358:LoveMonkey
1211:LoveMonkey
1203:Red Terror
1192:Oh so the
330:Philosophy
319:philosophy
269:Philosophy
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2071:Protected
112:Socialism
103:socialism
59:Socialism
2507:Cheers.—
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2343:WP:NPOV
2144:here.
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724:C‑class
646:on the
548:History
518:on the
357:on the
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139:on the
2405:Leutha
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619:Russia
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543:Russia
36:scale.
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