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and concerns philosophy, not theology. In fact, it's not even his major work of theology, let alone one of the leading books of the school. The Ihya "Revival..." is not a work of theology at all. The closing of the door of ijtihad is not a matter of theology, but one of jurisprudence, and again, has nothing to do with
Ghazali or the Ihya. The paragraph beginning "Modern commentators blame..." is utter nonsense even from the perspective of a modern critic of the Ash`arites. Like Ghazali, while Razi and Ibn Khaldun are well known, they are not the major proponents of the Ash`ari school - rather they are so well known because they stand out from the school as their own thinkers. The Ottomans themselves and the leading official scholars were mainly Maturidi, not Ash`ari. The article does illustrate some basic tropes from a certain perspective on Islamic history, common to both 19th century Orientalists and 20th century Muslim modernizers: that the Mu`tazilites were "rationalists" and were therefore responsible for early Islamic scientific advances; that othodoxy stamped out that scientific spirit, and closed the door to "ijtihad," which is taken to mean free and rational thought. The paradigm itself is flawed - the Mu`tazilites may have been rationalists of a sort, but not such that any 20th century rationalist would recognize them, and ijtihad is a narrow jurisprudential procedure having no bearing on scientific inquiry. Our author here seems to have a weaker grasp than most on the details of his own paradigm. Thus, he conflates Ash`arism with Ottoman Maturidism - the two schools combined representing orthodox Islamic thought. He also draws on the big names from medieval Islamic thought - perhaps drawing them from the section headings of a chapter in a survey Intro. to Islam course in a Western university or a high school history class in somewhere like Tunisia, Syria, or Pakistan. Ironically, even in the modernist world view Ibn Khaldun especially is singled out as an exception to the intellectual repression of medieval Islamic orthodoxy, but our author fails to spare him. Anyway, what I meant to say is, will someone please replace this drivel - perhaps with a stub or a redirect if there's something better under another name.
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there is some merit in identifying a group of big-p "Philosophers" for whom ancient philosophy was the cornerstone of their theology - i.e. the neo-Platonists and
Aristotelians and later the Ishraqis - the Mu`tazilites, Ash`arites, and Maturidis studied, practiced, and taught philosophy - and in the case of the latter two schools, do to this day.
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do not have the time to do this myself, unfortunately. I entered the article to correct a few mistakes that hit me in the first paragraph and then realized that the job required too much effort. My view changes may clash with the rest of the article because I quit after paragraph three (or so). Thanks for your attention.
399:, and the use of the term "Western" to mean all of the Mediterranean basin, including the 'Near East' whose history is not really separable. Culture centric terms like 'Dark Ages' or even 'medieval' or 'feudal' are probably bad in titles of articles that are not specifically about what those words mean as such.
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Concerning the (anti-)rationalism of the
Asharites, the statements of the article "Is Ghazali really the Hulagu of science in Islam" are cited as the truth. Yet that article itself recognizes that its position is a minority one and that the position that it argues against is prevalent "in present-day
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If you read Ibn
Khaldun's muqadimmah you will see clearly that he was a genius who used avicennian logic which comes from aristotle (well kinda anyway), and invented many things. i reckon this one has been put up by people who want to lead muslims away from their history of intellectual engagement.
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I am an
Islamicist at Yale University and would like to inform the powers-that-be at Knowledge.org that this article is completely inaccurate and should be removed until an expert can rewrite it from scratch. I suggest looking at the Encyclopedia of Islam article on the Ash`arites for inspiration. I
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Ugh, I was hoping maybe "Early Muslim
Philosophy" would prove better, but the same drivel is abbreviated there. One important point, while it is relevant to discuss Mu`tazilism and Ash`arism in the context of Islamic philosophy, they are not philosophical schools. They are theological schools. While
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Has this article been replaced yet? What is the title? This is one of the worst pieces of work I've ever seen on
Knowledge. In addition to what was pointed out above, "The Incoherence..." is not really a work of systematic Ash`ari theology, though al-Ghazali was an Ash`ari. Rather it is a refutation
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so was a copyright violation. There was other material copied from the same site in quotation marks but excessive quoting, ie anything much above 220 words, is considered a copyright violation by our policy, which is stricter than copyright law (note that in any case quotes form the same source are
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I am not expert enough to recognize all the possible errors. One error that might be missed by an Muslim re-writer is the statement that Europe was not producing honest histories in the 13th century. There are a dozen counter-examples beginning with the
Heimskringla. To judge by Ibn Khaldun's weird
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applies to editors, not sources. The answer is simply for us to use the site sparingly and mention, very clearly, when Ash'aris.com is simply providing a translation - which again, they are both skilled and honest with - and when the site is making polemical, non-neutral claims. As a hobbyist in
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As someone who reads and speaks Arabic fluently, I have never, at any time, found inaccurate translations on the site. They have been academically honest in showing the texts and making some valid criticisms of the Ash'arite school which have already been made by earlier authorities in
Islamic
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Abu Mansur Al-Maturidi, Al-Kawthari are
Maturidi's, not Ashari. In fact, nearly all of the Shafi'ites of the classical eras were affiliated with the Ashari school of though, while the Hanafi's of the classical era were affiliated with the Maturidi school of thought. Of course, there are a few
446:. In this case the 'early' Christians would be 1st to 5th century, and the 'early' Muslims are 6th to 15th century. Hopefully that's ok, as the point is to discuss the impact on Muslims and Christians, not to help boneheads who think there is such a thing as 'early' civilization in general.
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This statement is incorrect because Ibn Rushd was most certainly not a Mutazilite and his response was not shallow since he wrote a whole book to address Al-Ghazali's objections. "The famously responded" thing seems to be a quote from the beginning of the book.
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As to the article. There should be a careful and accurate description as to what Ashari literature before al-Ghazzali has actually come down to us. Wolfson seems to be reduced to quoting Ibn Hazm (whomm, I imagine, must also be included) constantly.
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I merely reorganized the article so that it is easier to be edited by those who have more expertise on the subject. I didn't check anything factual or conceptual about the article, but still I have to say it's a BIG MESS.
897:). I note the long list of scholars lacks sources and is apparently simply the belief of various editors as to what belongs. They should be sourced and if removed due to lack of sources shouldn't be replaced. Besides
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theology, in addition to showing that the early Ash'arites are quite different from modern Ash'arites (which isn't a controversial claim in academic Muslim circles). Now that being said, the site is polemical. Per
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according to our criteria. It should not consist of large numbers of quotes, and particularly not large numbers of quotes from religious sources. Using primary sources in that way is basically what we call
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I am against using polemical, biased and dishonest websites like Asharis.com. They often provide wrong translations and misunderstandings. Such a site should not be used without further examination.
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Ibn Rushd, a Mutazilite, famously responded that "to say that philosophers are incoherent is itself to make an incoherent statement." But this shallow response could not refute Al-Ghazili's view.
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Islamic theology who also has access to physical copies of most of these texts in question, I will volunteer my time to verify any of their translations should a dispute arise.
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The article also dwells a lot on history unrelated to Ashari thought in many cases (e.g. Khilafa downfall in 1924, Andalus fall in 1492, history authors in Islam, ...etc.)
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Ash'aris have nothing to do with the closure of the gates for ijtihad. It was in late medieval times, mainly under the Mamelukes and the Ottomans that this came into being.
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The article sucked, so I copied and pasted the Encyclopedia of Islam article. It's a bit outdated but can be added to. Please format the article if you know how. Mercy
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Don't know why on earth anyone got the idea that ibn khaldun was anti-rational. 21:21, 15 Jan 2007 __________________________________________________________________
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Statements about Ataturk's moves and motivations could be better documented, but of course he didn't exactly say 'I'm trashing your culture deliberately' to the
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it follows the convention of naming articles about the historical impact of a term or name of school by the name of that shool alone, as an adjective, e.g.
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I've reverted them again - the IP restoring them was almost certainly another sock. Some of the material was directly copied without quotation marks from
893:, editors deciding what quotes prove what points. In fact, nothing in our articles should be written to prove a point but rather to discuss the subject (
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It references most of the important conservative philosophers of Islam in this period, and is meant to parallel the article on the rival school of the
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Ash'ari theology and thought, how they developed as a response to Mutazilis, its main proponents, and contrasting it with Salafi and Maturidi thought.
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Since it's been repeatedly restored with the copyvio intact, I've rev/del'd the offending edits. This means that only Administrators can view them.
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idea of Europe the Europeans knew more about the Muslims than vice versa. In the 13th century. In the 10th things might have been different.
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in the meta, and whether its framework could be applied to editorial standards, so it's reasonable to say it's relevant to
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The lack of sources is yet another bad issue. I guess it isn't of Knowledge's spirit to just cram opinions over opinions.
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This is really a terribly written and uninformed article. Why hasn't it been taken down? 01:47, 21 September 2006
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I agree - unlike Mutazila article which is well researched, This one is full of misinformation and inaccuracies.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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And the connection between Asharites and Ottoman Empire is definitely wrong. The Ottomans pushed Maturiditism.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The eponymous guy changed his views from Mutazilite to the independent thought of his to the abandonment of
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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often used in many articles, which is technically a massive violation). Material added should be from
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this is an important topic and cannot be left like this. Either take it down or redo it properly.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Biography of Abu Al Hassan Al Ashari, the founder, his life, his debates, his works, his thought.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130216162405/http://www.shafiifiqh.com/imam-abu-bakr-al-bayhaqi/
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Could you maybe be more specific as to which parts of the article you feel should be changed?
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when European innovation finally surpassed and eventually overwhelmed that of the Muslims."
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itself needs a detailed article with deep analysis, like other influential papers, e.g.
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altogether. Now that may have caused confusion about who is to be called an Ash'arite.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Why do a few famous Maturidi scholars categorized as "Ashari" in this article?
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near the top. Knowledge articles regarding Islam is not very reliable yet.
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Ibn Rushd is not a Mu'tazili. He is philosopher. There is a big difference.
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Matn Ibn Ashir المرشد المعين على الضروري من علوم الدين - متن ابن عاشر.jpg
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literature". Thus, citing its position as the correct one is against
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Ibn Khaldun did not have a part in the rise of Ashari thought at all.
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The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences
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I was adding some content and it went wrong, someone fix it please
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should be better documented and raised in that article. Likewise
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This article as it stands today needs to be entirely re-done.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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SOMEONE SHOULD LOOK AT IT! and that is CAREFULLY, falks! --
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Also, wasn't that same guy who talked about the concepts of
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Knowledge level-5 vital articles in Philosophy and religion
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I deleted the following, because it is speculative: "
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It should be broken down into two separate articles:
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Knowledge vital articles in Philosophy and religion
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http://www.shafiifiqh.com/imam-abu-bakr-al-bayhaqi/
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1006:Sourcecheck
923:Doug Weller
908:Doug Weller
801:Asharis.com
771:Jagged case
673:—Preceding
444:City of God
404:Mutazilites
1155:Categories
1076:Report bug
832:MezzoMezzo
695:MezzoMezzo
558:AGretlein
434:view over
1059:this tool
1052:this tool
903:WP:VERIFY
777:) listed
618:Copyright
598:Kleinecke
531:Khalid B.
485:wikipedia
440:Augustine
389:Platonist
39:is rated
1065:Cheers.—
858:unsigned
785:dixit. (
714:Columbus
675:unsigned
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333:Theology
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296:Theology
244:Religion
222:Religion
175:Religion
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945:Ash'ari
895:WP:NPOV
827:WP:NPOV
775:Cleanup
748:WP:NPOV
656:Wayunga
584:abdulnr
436:Gnostic
420:ijtihad
360:on the
271:on the
150:on the
41:C-class
1000:failed
783:Rursus
414:using
408:hadith
47:scale.
899:WP:RS
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635:kalam
451:ulema
416:isnah
412:kalam
379:Notes
123:Islam
114:Islam
70:Islam
28:This
1143:talk
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1096:talk
1086:Oops
996:true
927:talk
912:talk
866:talk
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779:here
760:talk
741:NPOV
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683:talk
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352:High
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