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basic biographical details and definition of the topic, the etymology section that naturally should talk about the Greek origins of her name itself (duh), the first paragraph of the background section talking about her upbringing and spoken languages (naturally), the section "Cleopatra's kingdom and role as a monarch" which rightfully has to explain her patronage of
Egyptian and Greek temples (again, making it clear she was a supporter of both Greek and Egyptian cultures), and some parts of the "Cultural depictions" subsection under "Legacy" that, surprise, naturally has to mention the Hellenistic Greek character of certain artworks depicting her versus Egyptian style ones, or the alleged literature she penned in Greek. This supposed bias that permeates the entire article is thus found in a handful of spots before it's given any kind of serious treatment in the ancestry section.
2990:(2008) as well as Susan Walker and Peter Higgs (2001), two classicists who study this sort of thing for a living. It's a comparison made by examining her standard iconography issued on coins minted during her reign, as well as the surviving marble busts that have also been identified as her based on the same coinage. The use of a diadem crowning the head signifies royal status in classical antiquity, and was not depicted on any sort of random woman. The painted head at Herculaneum was even accompanied by motifs of Egyptian crocodiles, if the apparent link to the most notable Ptolemaic queen wasn't obvious enough to viewers without the anonymous artist scribbling her name underneath the head with big exclamation marks and arrows pointing at the head.
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depiction. And then there are a dozen other considerations, like the fact that the painting in the House of Marcus Fabius Rufus depicts the woman as Venus
Genetrix (with baby cupid most likely being Caesarion) inside a temple beyond its open doors. We know from Roman historiography that Caesar had a statue erected of Cleopatra at the Temple of Venus Genetrix within the Forum of Caesar in Rome. It doesn't take too much critical thinking to connect the dots here, hence the research papers that have been published on the subject by Walker and the agreement by major academics and biographers like Roller. Does that answer your question?
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length of Roller's biography, for instance. If anything the article, in the very first paragraph of the lead and later in the prose body, immediately distinguishes
Cleopatra from all other Ptolemies, noting how she was the only one who cared about Egyptian culture enough to learn the native Egyptian language. The ancestry section includes a lengthy discussion about the modern hypothesis regarding her possible (yet unproven) partial Egyptian ancestry via her uncertain mother.
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They support this by cherry picking sources, usually from the first 10 pages of a book (literally check almost any reference) and then supplementing these with notes to pile in more bias and references that are cherry picking again. It is not a matter of debate on whether the bias is true. It shouldn't be there to begin with.
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In an article, a factual encyclopedic statement should have one or two references. Not three or four, and a note with even more in included, that reference the first 10 pages of each book. This makes someone curious about
Cleopatra lost in your need to cherry-pick through literature to fit your spin.
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Articles on
Knowledge or in any encyclopedia should not deliver an overindulgence of references, notes, and have a clear undertone of bias. Whoever wrote this article is trying to make Cleopatra fit their image of a 'Ptolemaic Greek' that lives in 'Greek Alexandria' and is 'unabashedly not Egyptian'.
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Secondly, there's not a single place in the article that says explicitly that
Cleopatra was, quote, "unabashedly not Egyptian." That's just a false statement, as is this claim that only the first ten pages of any cited book were consulted, when the article is littered with references from the entire
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This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of
Knowledge than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations
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Just to echo what
Pericles said above, this is a featured article, which means that in order to reach this status it had to be carefully examined and approved by top wikipedia editors, so it can't be poorly written. Besides, that there is a note with 5 sources and a comment every few sentences, if
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Have you considered helping those of us who have done
Cleopatra research and been trying to improve this article, or just complaining? Part of the issue is almost all scholarly sources discuss Cleopatra in a Greek context. I have tried to counterbalance this with Shelley Haley and Joyce Tyldesley,
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Sorry, didn't see this until now. They're judging that based on the aquiline nose, her pronounced
Ptolemaic chin, her eyes, etc. More important than simply relating these features in frescoes to her official coins is the consistent use of a Hellenistic style royal diadem crowning her head in each
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LOL. No worries! I was slightly confused by you bringing up Haley and Tyldesley, but then I just figured you were talking about the Cleopatra ethnicity sub-article in relation to this one. I think it's safe to say this article does a decent job balancing talk about Cleopatra's ethnic origins as a
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Thirdly, the only section of the article that speaks at length about her ethnicity or Greekness is the 'Ancestry' section at the very tail end of the article. Before that, the only parts that even mention or lightly explore this topic are the first paragraph of the lead section providing the most
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Fourthly: seriously now, just investigate this for yourself by searching all the places in the prose body of the article that the word "Greek" is even used. It's barely noticeable in the entire "Biography" section that forms roughly half the article, and really only included when it is utterly
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Trying to find the reason for the sudden spike in views of the Cleopatra article, I turned to the internet for answers. Soon, someone on Twitter provided a clue: the Google Assistant app, which uses voice recognition to allow users to interact with their phones through conversation, may be
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It's a wonderfully written and researched article, I don't know how you managed to make it, and I don't know how anybody could call it "poorly researched" or "poorly written". PericlesofAthens, the prose and the sourcing is honestly just out of the world, this is the perfect article.
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Firstly, this is a Featured article vetted by the Knowledge community of editors, and that includes its referencing; radical changes to the article should be avoided or discussed among the community of editors here, not just executed at the impulsive whim of an anonymous
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Macedonian Greek with her being a ruler of Egypt who embraced Egyptian culture more than the average Ptolemy. I'll leave it there and consider this conversation to be over, since our anonymous commenter seemingly has no desire to return or respond in earnest.
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except this sentence. Something about how it follows the previous one makes it a bit confusing in the flow, perhaps because there are 3 he's in the previous sentence, although on re-reading (and confirming at the Arsinoe article) Antony is the correct
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Dude be mad all you want, but someone citing extra sources doesnt exactly prove them wrong. Anyway the information is true dispite you disliking it. You didnt even say what information you thought was true. Just an overall "NUH UHH"
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A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the datesĀ !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)
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In the section "Reign and exile of Ptolemy XII" the first image has the description: "Most likely a posthumously painted portrait of Cleopatra with red hair and her distinct facial features, wearing a royal diadem..."
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2919:, thanks for saying that! Much appreciated. I genuinely don't take offense, because the person above just came here to troll and leave without responding in earnest or making serious suggestions for improvement.
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To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?
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or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.
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We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.
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It's worthless references, plain and simple. This article is encumbered with someone's passion project to turn Cleopatra into their image.
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Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Knowledge, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .
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I'm sorry that I don't ever comment on here. But this has to be said. This article is uniquely horrible. Please fix it.
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and related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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necessary (for instance, noting the only known possible writing of hers to survive in Koine Greek: Ī³Ī¹Ī½ĪĻĪøĻĪ¹,
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but sometimes it is what it is in regards to ancient data and the availability and nature of scholarship.
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history on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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3044:-- this phrase is redundant because, for popular purposes, Cleopatra and Nefertiti "look Egyptian". --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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soon. If not updated before age exceeds 30 days, the chart will be hidden until it is. See
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2014:"2022 wasn't the year of Cleopatra ā so why was she the most viewed page on Knowledge?"
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Yep, a logical fallacy there indeed.Ā ;) That about sums up this conversation.
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The rationale behind the request is: "Very important person in history".
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here. Improving it might involve editing the surrounding sentences too.
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For some reason I thought this was the Cleopatra race talk page lol
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2063:: size=102, age=19, days=60, min=136348, max=153424, latest=144241.
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the "Egyptian" look similar to the queens Cleopatra and Nefertiti
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is a biogeochemical process, because...reasons! That's why!).
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anything, shows that it is not, in fact, poorly researched.
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of this article to be created. For further information, see
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Hello. That's a judgment call made by the Egyptologist
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He carried out the execution of Arsinoe at her request
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What exactly is distinct about her facial features? -
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2668:6 May 2022
2071:should be
2059:Pageviews
1958:discussion
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348:identified
3005:Rooiratel
2984:Rooiratel
2969:Rooiratel
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1963:Etymology
1954:etymology
1925:Etymology
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372:Cleopatra
339:Cleopatra
88:if needed
71:Be polite
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2653:Untitled
619:Military
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508:Promoted
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186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2074:updated
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1832:on the
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1891:Women
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1348:Egypt
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572:This
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263:color
169:JSTOR
130:books
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