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data that has to change in order for the final outcome to change has virtually not budged. Meanwhile, it constantly pulls away the attention of those who have the article on their watchlists, who, exhausted from the endless rehashing, decide to ignore the article, with the result that posts about genuinely new issues will be overlooked, completely drowned out by the torrent of messages from people who won't let the matter go for a reasonable amount of time. (I am not referring here to people who broach the change in good faith without having participated in or read the previous discussions, but to those who take it up, at great length without saying anything novel, at every opportunity.)
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and including a sly 'also called Timor-Leste' in its introduction, as if it's some sort of second-rate proposal. Quite simply, I'm amazed, and this won't likely change any soon because Timor-Leste is such a small country with no clout to change the minds of
English native speakers turning their nose up at all these tiny little nations insisting on their name being used right. One wonders how eSwatini got its name changed approved in the English Knowledge. —
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2780:- there is nothing that warrants putting a moratorium on open discussions regarding the naming practices around this country. Absolutely ludicrous to try to squash these talks. And quite frankly, if your watchlists need respite, remove the article from the watchlist - the idea that discussion should be halted for two years so you can "take a break" from all the notifications is crazy.
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is a false premise. What warrants it is that there is virtually nothing to be gained by holding the same discussions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over within a short interval, repeating arguments that have been rehashed dozens of times when, meanwhile, the underlying
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Thank you for your inputs. I have a personal preference towards avoiding a hook focused on history, and especially the occupation. I feel more positive about a hook that expresses something about the country as it is now. On local US Dollar coins, I can add that to the article, it does not feel undue
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Given that "Timor-Leste" was the country's colonial name under
Portuguese rule, and that it means exactly the same thing as "East Timor" so its exactly as dark, just expressing that darkness in another language, why aren't you rejecting that name as well? Colonial names are bad or colonial names are
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Our nation wanted to be called as Timor-Leste not East Timor. East Timor was Timor-Leste’s colonial name under
Indonesian rule. Af if you think that Indonesia does not speak English, the government actually translates geographical names to English. I know it’s the common English name for my country,
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Because we do not necessarily use the official name. Our country articles use the name in common usage in
English. It is the current consensus that English usage is "East Timor". If you think that English usage is actually "Timor-Leste", it is up to you to prove that. Note that the country itself is
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I favor a two-year moratorium. If actual usage shifts in favor of "Timor-Leste", then
Knowledge should reflect that, but any measure on which that would be based is inherently fuzzy that it isn't as though there will be an exact day on which the shift happens, and there's nothing so urgent about it
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has set: evidence for usage of the proposed target title should not simply outnumber the current title, but do so in non-official and non-officialese sources (e.g. not just texts from international organizations, or NGO texts that often perfunctorily ape UN officialese style; see our discussions in
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People were calling it "East Timor" before there was a
Knowledge, and most people have never looked up the article in Knowledge. Finally, "Timor-Leste" is Portuguese, and Portugal was the actual colonial overlord, so anyone desperate to have Knowledge rename the article "Timor-Leste" must really be
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I feel like I should clarify - I'm well aware of rhe history on the page name here (and the equivalent on the Ivory Coast page), and I'm not proposing that we launch yet another move request. My previous comment was more because I found the two comments opposing the notion above to be unhelpful and
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I know you're being facetious but that sort of attitude really isn't helpful here - someone asking you to call them by their preferred name is absolutely not the same thing as claiming they know
English better than you, but we should also not be treating some forms of English as better than others.
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I'm actually amazed
Knowledge doesn't use the official name. To me, it smells like lingering remnants of colonialism. I think a lot of sources think the official English name is East Timor precisely because the largest encyklopedia in the world features the name *East Timor* as the *correct* name,
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the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the
Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
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You're completely wrong. It's as though you've never read
Knowledge's guidelines on this topic, about which there's nothing colonial. "One wonders how eSwatini got its name change approved ..."—there's nothing to wonder about, it's because your premise is wrong in the first place. Discard your
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before continuing here without substantial qualitative and quantitative evidence. Too often this discussion is characterized by assertions (from both sides) about predominant usage out of thin air. I'll be back in Jan 2024, not with a move discussion, but just plain metrics for usage in 2023.
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Recently off a fairly thorough GA review, this is a—to a lay person—comprehensive article, well written and referenced. Article has previously appeared on the main page, but not in DYK and other appearances are a few years ago. Hooks are interesting, from the article, and referenced. DYK
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but it has a dark memory to the nation. Just try to be more respectful to my nation’s decision even if it needs adjustment to make it common. Because we are talking about my nation’s identity here, not your identity. For me as a Timorese, I think we need a new consensus for this.
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Listing increasing numbers of of sources that use the name you'd like to have the article moved to is insufficient. There isn't some tipping point, whether it's 10 or 20 or 50, beyond which a new name automatically prevails. What's needed is a demonstration that the new name
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as a short note. Re mobile courts, I will reword the article sentence. Re ALT1, no objection to that rephrasing. As before, also no objection to further hooks, I have been immersed in this article for awhile, so input as to what is interesting from others is very helpful.
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Here are searches from the Australian Media I could think of using Timor-Leste. Remember Australia is only a few hundred km from the island so surely that carries far more weight than some distant publication that hasn't been and will unlikely be updated in
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that we absolutely must convene to resolve in favor of the change on that non-existent specific day. Two years is sufficient time to allow to go by before reconsideration while allowing those of us with this article in our watchlists some respite.
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it is that Knowledge uses the long-standing English name for such-and-such country, while the natives of that same country use their own names for English-speaking countries and don't imagine themselves to be committing any offense by doing so.
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was occupied by Indonesia until 1999?". I also found the use of local fractional coins for the US dollar a nice factoid, especially as it goes with a picture, but this would need to be mentioned and referenced in the article
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consensus among editors that English usage is "East Timor", but there is no consensus for the same claim about "Timor-Leste", either. In such a case, WP follows the inertia principle, summed up as "no consensus to move".
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is very close to what the source says ("Geographical access to courts remains a challenge. Many municipalities have no fixed courts and rely on mobile services. The government has established mobile courts") so as to be
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The first thing is sometimes hard to accept for people who feel "affected". The second thing is sometimes hard to understand from the outside persective. The third one, well, is annyoing, but Wikipedians are human too.
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And as a native English speaker I find the East Timorese government's assertion that they know how to speak my language better than I do to be highly offensive. So I guess the two of us cancel each other out.
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given that many people probably don't know much about East Timor, any number of alt hooks are possible, even for more general facts, e.g. "... that following the end of Portuguese colonial rule in 1975,
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
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Dear IP, don't even try to prove it even you believe to have sufficient quantitative and qualitative evidence for a significant and lasting shift of common usage in English, unless your evidence is
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See the list of previous discussions on this near the top of this page, beginning "This article has previously been nominated to be moved." The core of the matter is that we go by the guidance of
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What is the idea came from the east timor's government system? I don't know in my mind if timor leste was previously listed as a parliamentary republic one time on one of the instagram post.
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Are you equally depressed that the respective articles about the United Kingdom at Portuguese and Tetum Knowledge are titled Reino Unido and Reinu Naklibur, and not United Kingdom?
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Why is the article titled East Timor? Im confused by this because East Timor is the former name. Since the official name is Timor-Leste, why isnt the article titled Timor-Leste?
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Knowledge is generally behind the times when it comes to naming and terms use because we look at past academic publications for research......but all can find it as
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and dirty tricks (like citing 10-year old corpora) in future move discussions. But this is already covered (in theory, at least) by behavioral policies, I guess. –
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2763:- Unless I'm mistaken, I'm only seeing two move requests in the past five years. That doesn't seem like the sort of volume that would necessitate a moratorium.
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I figured you wanted to focus on positive aspects. Just wanted to point out that most people might be drawn in by something more 'spectacular'. On the hooks:
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Thus intended name for English speakers is TIMOR-LESTE. As a native English speaker I find calling the country/Wikipedia page EAST TIMOR quite offensive.
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Timor Leste is also colonial name lol, the difference just Timor Leste come from Portuguese. East Timor is just translation version of Timor Leste.
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The airport is not listed as JoĂŁo Paulo II anywhere. The airport's own website calls itself simply Ponta Delgada, and has no mention of JoĂŁo Paulo.
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Then you need to launch a worldwide campaign among the publishers of English-language works to change what they're calling it. When it becomes the
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What does the word appointment means on the context of politics? I think the word appointed reminds me with the phrase dental appointment.
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80% of government spending comes from this fund, which as of 2021 had $ 19 billion, 10 times greater than the size of the national budget.
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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and completely ignore our naming conventions; b) provide zero metric evidence except for cherry-picked individual attestations.
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https://discover.abc.net.au/index.html?siteTitle=news#/?query=timor-leste&refinementList%5Bsite.title%5D%5B0%5D=ABC%20News
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The page should be called TIMOR-LESTE. Anything else is plain wrong. The name EAST TIMOR should be used in parenthesis only.
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there is nothing that warrants putting a moratorium on open discussions regarding the naming practices around this country
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with the popularly elected president sharing power with a prime minister appointed by the National Parliament.
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No, I'm serious. And the name for a particular piece of the ground is in no way the same as a PERSON's name. --
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Yes, Timor-Leste please! Failing that drop the redirect so that at least the new nation can get its own page.
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As for why this rename keeps failing, it's depressing. At least the Australian media has moved on.
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Geographical access to courts remains a challenge and has prompted the development of mobile courts
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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FWIW, I would also like to propose to add a moratorium on sophisms, dim misapprehensions about
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instead of support such "East Timor to Timor-Leste" renaming-ism, as we are not stucking on
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Whether the name is in English wasn't my point. It was that so often people write about how
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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purely because most Australian media outlets use Timor-Leste and not East Timor. --
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I have also some quibbles regarding ALT0, as the relevant part of the article,
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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name in use for it, then we'll switch. You're asking the tail to wag the dog.
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this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
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That said, there are still several sources indicate for us why we should
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over the old one. What does a similar search for "East Timor" reveal?
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The country calls itself TIMOR-LESTE on its English language website:
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an unlimited moratorium on move requests that are a) solely based on
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The historical baggage that comes with names and words is irrational.
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Even with metric evidence, everyone should be aware of the bar that
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The collective dynamic lying behind common usage is irrational.
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So please stop with the conspiracy theory-style accusations.
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problematic rather than constructively explaining the issue.
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government expenditure comes from the country's state-owned
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government expenditure comes from the country's state-owned
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the ones who are pining for the days of colonialism, right?
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yes, I've read the discussion. Like I said, depressing.
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The CIA lists the country as TIMOR-LESTE not EAST TIMOR.
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https://search.nine.com.au/?q=timor-leste&site=news
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Talk:East_Timor/Archive_7#Requested_move_6_January_2023
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The UN lists the country as TIMOR-LESTE not EAST TIMOR.
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Knowledge Did you know articles that are good articles
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a one-year moratorium for reasons I expressed above.
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's
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https://www.news.com.au/search-results?q=timor-leste
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Template:Did you know nominations/Formed Police Unit
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1941:Otherwise all is good to go. A fine article!
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2012:The meaning of word appointed
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1184:and see a list of open tasks.
1079:and see a list of open tasks.
970:and see a list of open tasks.
758:and see a list of open tasks.
656:and see a list of open tasks.
55:Put new text under old text.
2737:13:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2719:11:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2700:14:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2657:06:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2340:11:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2264:11:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
2246:11:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
2042:See any dictionary, such as
1328:Template:Regions of Portugal
1320:Category:History of Portugal
7:
2949:GA-Class Indonesia articles
2849:08:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
2212:11:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
2188:10:40, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
2173:06:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
2152:05:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
1769:: Other hook ideas welcome!
1714:: ... that the majority of
1642:Knowledge talk:Did you know
1634:this nomination's talk page
447:The text of the entry was:
63:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
10:
2990:
2964:GA-Class Portugal articles
2490:This is the Murdoch press
2137:19:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
2114:19:19, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
2095:19:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
2076:17:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
2062:East Timor or Timor-Leste?
1988:14:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
1216:project's importance scale
1111:project's importance scale
1002:project's importance scale
957:WikiProject Southeast Asia
688:project's importance scale
2924:GA-Class country articles
2832:14:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2811:14:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2790:14:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2773:09:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
2756:07:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
2406:isn't still Upper Volta.
1464:was copied or moved into
1222:
1209:
1142:
1104:
1033:
995:
942:
778:
716:
681:
630:
609:
373:
369:
93:Be welcoming to newcomers
22:Skip to table of contents
2801:TL;DR: It's disruptive.
2056:10:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
2037:06:14, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
2007:10:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
1367:Help assessing articles.
1299:Coat of arms of Portugal
873:Category:Stubs by region
426:appeared on Knowledge's
21:
2884:GA-Class vital articles
2869:Knowledge good articles
2496:This is the SMH family
1697:... that some areas of
1638:the article's talk page
1619:Did you know nomination
982:Southeast Asia articles
1323:: lots to remove there
645:WikiProject East Timor
449:Did you know ... that
424:fact from this article
88:avoid personal attacks
2398:in English. It's why
1784:). Self-nominated at
1581:, 26 September 2011,
1561:, 28 September 2005,
1508:, 29 September 2018,
1064:WikiProject Indonesia
747:WikiProject Countries
588:level-4 vital article
347:good article criteria
232:Auto-archiving period
113:Neutral point of view
1927:United States dollar
1703:have mobile courts?
1530:, 17 December 2020,
1518:, 16 November 2018,
1472:. The former page's
1384:Portuguese Knowledge
1173:WikiProject Portugal
871:de-stub articles in
457:United States dollar
399:Good article nominee
312:relevant style guide
308:varieties of English
118:No original research
1601:, 3 February 2013,
1571:, 26 October 2010,
1478:provide attribution
310:. According to the
1980:Community Tech bot
1866:That's it for now
1550:Older discussions:
1540:, 6 January 2023,
1355:Requested articles
1091:Indonesia articles
597:content assessment
374:Article milestones
99:dispute resolution
60:
2502:9News (was MSN?)
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2371:comment added by
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1262:Find correct name
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2160:is a redirect.
2064:
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1976:nomination page
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1929:, but produces
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1688:Article history
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1591:, 4 June 2012,
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1419:Watch this list
1382:Translate from
1255:
1227:Portugal To-do:
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1165:Portugal portal
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1107:High-importance
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1028:High‑importance
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524:August 30, 2009
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504:August 30, 2006
496:August 30, 2005
492:August 30, 2004
466:
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2707:Oppose for now
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2649:Liuxinyu970226
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2431:Please have a
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1790:will be logged
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1212:Mid-importance
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1137:Mid‑importance
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998:Top-importance
994:
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973:Southeast Asia
968:the discussion
963:Southeast Asia
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934:Southeast Asia
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836:Check out the
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684:Top-importance
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654:the discussion
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625:Top‑importance
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486:On this day...
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2778:Strong Oppose
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1943:Constantine
1868:Constantine
1796:; consider
1373:Need images
1292:Os LusĂadas
889:WPCountries
277:written in
161:free images
44:not a forum
2858:Categories
2824:Largoplazo
2803:Largoplazo
2729:Largoplazo
2617:Largoplazo
2552:Largoplazo
2529:Largoplazo
2508:and so on
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2256:Largoplazo
2238:Blue Moses
2180:Largoplazo
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2048:Largoplazo
2044:Wiktionary
1922:East Timor
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2547:offensive
1925:uses the
1589:Not moved
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1082:Indonesia
1069:Indonesia
1025:Indonesia
761:Countries
752:countries
711:Countries
591:is rated
480:Main Page
455:uses the
428:Main Page
288:travelled
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
2765:Turnagra
2645:UN-Names
2461:Turnagra
2435:look at
2423:Turnagra
2408:Turnagra
2400:eSwatini
2381:contribs
2369:unsigned
2290:Turnagra
1798:watching
1758:Reviewed
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1655:promoted
1348:Requests
1274:Portugal
1187:Portugal
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359:reassess
300:artefact
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2841:Drpixie
2820:Support
2744:Oppose.
2724:Support
2711:SHB2000
2663:Support
2510:Cagneya
2427:Cagneya
2353:Cagneya
2178:great?
1767:Comment
1749:pg. 136
1679:Comment
1659:Bruxton
1474:history
1306:More...
1285:Improve
1241:history
1214:on the
1109:on the
1000:on the
846:Cleanup
797:history
686:on the
482:in the
430:in the
382:Process
304:analyse
296:defence
236:90Â days
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
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2481:years.
2332:Illchy
1831:first.
1395:Wikify
1361:Assess
1313:Review
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558:, and
404:Listed
385:Result
292:centre
284:colour
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1811:done.
1752:pg.10
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1341:box).
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182:JSTOR
143:books
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1353:See
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1101:High
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896:talk
884:add
792:edit
379:Date
175:FENS
149:news
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1881:CMD
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