1453:(which in this case would involve the use of quotation marks and more direct, in-line attribution). That's it. Everything else is secondary to that consideration. But no encyclopedia entry is totally neutral, simply because translation and selection always involves some degree of what to privilege and focus on for the sake of space. In teaching texts like this, one can easily learn (and help students see) how much tacit interpretation already goes into what seems like a straightforward summary. That's not to say that Ruse is incorrect, but it does mean that his gloss of Bloch is his own work, and not how everyone would interpret him. To give just the most obvious example, the fact that the Oxford entry finds the idea of reality as mediation "baffling" (and thereby turns immediately to Naturphilosophie for an explanation) is a tacit way of downplaying a Hegelian influence. Again, my point is not that Ruse is incorrect or that we should privilege one particular interpretation of Bloch, but we
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this page and happy that people are working on such an important topic, so please carry on, by all means. I do think it's a distinction worth making that my point is not about style (so the judgment on "bad writing" is not really what I'm after) so much as a point of policy. Forgive me if I misread your initial objection, but it did strongly seem to me that you in fact didn't think it constituted plagiarism; I felt it necessary to explain the reasons for why I thought it was.
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influence of
Naturphilosophie, the role of teleology, the subject/object mediation) would help remove this problem and put the material back into that section. (Although to be honest, I don't think the Oxford entry on Bloch is very good, since the author seems baffled by his own subject matter, but that's a larger question.) Please let me know if you have any questions about this. Cheers,
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is factually inaccurate. It isn't controversial what Bloch thought, and Ruse isn't "arguing" anything in that passage: he is simply stating what Bloch's known views are. "Ruse has argued that..." would be a proper addition if Ruse were offering a controversial or original interpretation of Bloch, which he is not.
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was written for a work of reference, and seems to be already ideal for such works, so what worthwhile changes could be made? Probably none. I'd have nothing against using a different source entirely, however, as I don't have such a high opinion of
Michael Ruse either. The obvious alternative choice is
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It seems to me that the edits by the other IP address are degrading the quality of this article. It really does not help to have the name "Joel Kovel" thrust at the reader in the lead. If the IP feels so strongly that the "greatest utopian thinker" claim must be attributed to Kovel, then I suggest to
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You are of course perfectly free to propose a reworked version of the material on
Naturphilosophie, teleology, and the subject/object mediation. In fact, I'd encourage you to, if you feel up to the task. Frankly, however, it's not clear to me that this material could be reworked in any useful way. It
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Notable to the article is what I meant I wasn't referring to
Knowledge:notability. Its important to know who called him the greatest and that it exaggerates the idea of blochs importance by not saying who. Do you know anyone else who called bloch the greatest modern utopia thinker or is it only joel
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I have changed it to "Joel Kovel called Bloch the greatest of modern utopian thinkers." instead of "Bloch has been called the greatest of modern utopian thinkers". the citation for him being called the greatest of modern utopian thinkers is from a joel kovel book, and it is a matter of notability as
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What you are recommending is simply bad writing. The words, "Michael Ruse has argued that...", are a perfect example of the kind of verbiage that I loathe and avoid when possible. In some cases, that sort of expression may be appropriate and necessary, but not here, because it implies something that
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Again, I should stress that it's plagiarism irrespective of intention, and I have no doubt that your intentions were sound. The point is just that we can't reproduce someone else's work without making it clear where their voice ends and ours begins. Reworking the language of the relevant claims (the
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This is a classic case of a certain kind of (often) unintentional plagiarism, where a writer (or student) thinks that naming the source means they don't have to make it clear for a reader what wording and ideas actually come from that source. But all standards for this sort of thing are pretty clear
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Did you even bother to check the source before deciding this isn't plagiarism? With one small alteration, it's a word-for-word quotation from
Honderich's book without quotation marks and necessary framing such as, "Michael Ruse has argued that ." In any context at all, that's plagiarism. Here's the
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What I did was not plagiarism in the sense that I, or I think most people, would define it. I'm not actually interested in discussing how plagiarism should be defined. What matters is that I'm not going to restore text that is seen as problematic. At this stage, I don't see any useful way that the
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If you are going to edit
Knowledge, it helps to use terms in the way in which they are used on Knowledge. As I said, anyone who wants to know who called Bloch the greatest modern utopian thinker can simply check the citation. There is no need to mention the name in the lead. Bloch happens to be a
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That said, I'm interested in reworking this article, but like I said in my first post, this isn't something I can get to for awhile. Since you have an ear for style, do you have any ideas about how we might reincorporate the points made in the Oxford entry while respecting wikipedia's attribution
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I'm sorry you see boldface as shouting and browbeating; that was certainly not my intention (caps seems to be the more common choice for that). Rather, it was to make a long paragraph easy to navigate instantly (by you or any other editors) at a glance. And I'm very interested in collaborating on
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I was disappointed to see that the "Thought" section did not describe any of Bloch's thought. I have attempted to correct this. In the process, I added a new reference and moved most of what was already written to "Life," which makes more sense to me. There is still plenty of work to be done.
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Do you see me restoring the text you removed? No. So you have nothing to complain about, as far as my behavior is concerned. Stop shouting at me in bold text, and discussion might become easier. Rest assured, I am quite capable of understanding written
English without its being placed in bold
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If your only interest is in brow-beating me, then you can have the article to yourself. I certainly won't touch it (though I will be interested to see what you can - or can't - do to improve it). I'd be happy to collaborate on improving the page, but you don't seem interested in this.
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that just citing the source doesn't eliminate the necessity of distinguishing the voice of the text proper from the voice of one's sources. It needs to be rewritten not for the sake of rewriting it, but to credit the specific wording and ideas of the scholar who wrote the Oxford entry.
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and yet I think it does exaggerate his importance by not including who said he was the greatest utopian thinker and that it is worth adding a couple more words into the lead. I'll ask I dream of horses to arbitrate this, I don't think we can settle this discussion any other
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Respectfully, that's not plagiarism. No one is ever guilty of plagiarism if they acknowledge their sources. I fail to see any respect in which that passage either could be rewritten or needs to be rewritten. Rewriting it just for the sake of rewriting it is foolish.
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him or her that he or she remove the material from the lead entirely and place it somewhere else in the article. It would be OK to have something to the effect that Kovel called Bloch the greatest of modern utopian thinkers so long as it is not in the lead.
1179:). Causally, this is driven by a fundamental cosmic force, "hunger", which Bloch sees as translatable into "hope" in our own species. Politically, the end-point translates into a utopia where the exploitation of humans by fellow humans has ended.
1262:). Causally, this is driven by a fundamental cosmic force—'hunger'—which Bloch sees as translatable into 'hope' in our own species. Politically, the end-point translates into a utopia where the exploitation of humans by fellow humans has
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This somewhat baffling claim should be read in the light of the fact that, although his reputation in the West was as a leading
Marxist philosopher, in respects Bloch's debts were to the deeper and more ancient roots of
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I don't have the time to rework this in the next couple months, but if somebody does that would be great. In any case, plagiarized text can't be in the article, even if that means the article has to be truncated.
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The Spirit of Hope is listed as 1918 in the list at the end of the article, yet the article states that it was written in the US after Bloch fled there from Hitler. In 1918 Hitler was still in the trenches!
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it says under = = influences = = "Psychoanalyst Joel Kovel has praised Bloch as, "the greatest of modern utopian thinkers" so i will remove the material from the lead entirely because it is elsewhere--
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This is not a joke. End of the 60's, I studied philosophy with Bloch in TĂĽbingen, and he oftenly mentioned Karl May and Karl Marx as the guiding stars of his early days. --Shoshone (German WP)
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I don't even know what you think "a matter of notability" means. In
Knowledge terms, "notability" is the policy that governs which subjects may have articles created about them. See
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famous and well-known thinker, and it does not in any way give an exaggerated impression of his importance to say that he has been called the greatest modern utopian thinker.
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needs a reassessment of its Importance level, as it has little to do with atheism and is instead an article about anti-theist/anti-religious actions of governments.
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Addendum: I've just checked and noticed that you were the one who originally added the material in question, so you are familiar with the source.
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The following passage, which I've removed from the article namespace, was lifted word for word (with slight modification) from the source cited:
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This is a helpful reference on the relevant wikipedia (and incidentally, academic) policy on this question, especially the third example.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Sorry, but you still seem to be missing the point. This isn't primarily a question of style, but one of plagiarism.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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text based on the Oxford Companion could be reworked; it might be better to use a different source altogether.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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I think the booklist is incomplete as I've come across a Bloch book titled "Philosophy of the Future".
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by checking whether ] has been added to atheism-related articles – and, where it hasn't, adding it.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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The article already says that Bloch was influenced by Marx; what other work do these quotes do?
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Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{WikiProject Atheism}} or see
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to your page ({{User WikiProject Atheism}} or {{User WPA2}}) and attract potential members.
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Try to expand stubs. Ideas and theories about life, however, are prone to generating
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Bloch believed that reality is an ongoing 'mediation' between object and subject.
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summarize other material in the article. That is precisely its purpose: see
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for comparison (wording and specific ideas reproduced in the wp entry are
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If you would like to participate, you can edit this article and visit the
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We cannot, by any academic standard I know and certainly not by
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defines it as a being restricted to America in the 21st century.
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You don't understand how the lead is supposed to work. It is
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to who called him that and should be included in the page.--
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is 1949? Worldcat has 1951 as earliest date of publication.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Use a "standard" layout for atheism-related articles (see
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teleological drive towards the end of the life process (
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Mid-importance social and political philosophy articles
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You seem to be confusing two different books by Bloch:
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164:Contemporary
152:Philosophers
93:
40:WikiProjects
1881:Ernst Bloch
1111:—Preceding
765:this merge
708:Agnosticism
160:Continental
1985:Categories
1972:Report bug
1708:notability
684:Watch the
675:neologisms
614:to-do list
452:Quick help
220:Philosophy
209:philosophy
147:Philosophy
1955:this tool
1948:this tool
1575:Sindinero
1459:Sindinero
1341:Sindinero
1284:Sindinero
1186:Sindinero
1012:Socialism
1003:socialism
959:Socialism
113:Biography
59:Biography
1961:Cheers.—
1840:meant to
1746:kovel?--
1573:policy?
1264:ceased."
1256:kind of
1139:unsigned
1113:unsigned
1079:Jordansc
643:info box
512:Be civil
1885:my edit
1844:WP:LEAD
1729:WP:NOTE
1260:Endziel
1254:) has a
1252:Urgrund
1177:Endziel
1173:Urgrund
1039:on the
898:on the
871:Germany
862:Germany
812:Germany
773:Atheism
763:against
691:Always
650:Atheism
594:userbox
585:be bold
559:history
424:on the
397:Atheism
388:atheism
360:Atheism
247:on the
30:C-class
1777:way.--
1225:bolded
725:Expand
714:Create
592:Add a
547:To do
36:scale.
1803:) @
1496:face.
753:into
569:purge
564:watch
1852:talk
1830:talk
1816:talk
1783:talk
1768:talk
1752:talk
1737:talk
1719:talk
1698:talk
1688:and
1675:talk
1655:talk
1624:talk
1579:talk
1532:talk
1463:talk
1455:have
1417:talk
1374:talk
1345:talk
1314:ISBN
1288:talk
1206:talk
1190:talk
1147:talk
1121:talk
1096:talk
1071:and
767:here
666:and
634:and
583:and
554:edit
102:and
1929:RfC
1899:to
1405:'s
1031:Low
890:Mid
817:GDR
761:or
759:for
416:Low
239:Mid
1987::
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1937:}}
1933:{{
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509:·
498:·
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481:·
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428:.
251:.
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42::
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