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powerful in the world. Look at all the financial crises of the US economy throughout its history. And? The US economy is still perceived as prestigious and as one of the wealthiest and most successful economies in the world (if not THE wealthiest and most successful). What I'm trying to get at with all those different examples is that, no matter what the context is (school, company, economy, country), something simply is or isn't prestigious, independent of controversies or scandals. Harvard simply IS prestigious - not POV but fact. It simply is. Period. Instead of now trying to find flies in the ointment and look at them with a magnifying glass, it's arguably more advisable to look at the broader picture. I think those who now emphasize and inflate the negative events of the school throughout its centuries-old history, I think those individuals don't see the forest for the trees.
1216:'s point is absurd that the recent events surrounding Gay automatically mean that Harvard is therefore not prestigious anymore. A quick Google search reveals that other schools of a similar calibre faced similar scandals as Harvard. Stanford's former President resigned last year because of manipulated research data. Yale had a cheating scandal involving 81 students a few years back. And? Do you seriously want to tell me that these schools are therefore also not prestigious anymore? The assumption that such scandals automatically equal a decrease in the prestige of these schools is just ludicrous. If anything, one could even put forward that those scandals, as paradoxical and surprising as it may be, increase the prestige of these schools - as in when people admire villains, known in sociology and psychology as the
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not POV but an encyclopedic fact. I mean, come on, it's the oldest and richest school in the US (plus all the other "glamorous" stuff like being in the Ivy League, the alumni, the prizes, the selective admissions process etc.). I think in the case of
Harvard, calling it prestigious can hardly be seen as promotional but rather factual, despite the recent scandals in its almost 400-year-history - which kind of is a good transition to the second issue I want to highlight here and thus leads me to my latter point: to kindly ask to cut the bashing.
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President also resigned because of issues with his research yet that is not in the
Stanford article. Highlighting each and every scandal in the case of Harvard is discriminatory towards that one school when compared to wiki articles of other (similar) schools. Can't make any changes myself as the article is protected, so I can pretty much only comment as an external observer. But maybe
1253:, that is because this formulation was removed and restored again just recently as this conversation was going on. That is, as you put it, the "formulation in the lede" which I was referring to when I wrote "reinstating the prestige statement in the lede". Anyway, now that it's back and no-one else chimed in, I think we can close the case.
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and me). What's the procedure on an include/exclude issue when there is a draw? My view is that the proposed change is the INclusion and that therefore a majority would have to vote for that in order for it to happen. Conversely, since a majority was not reached, the proposal of inclusion did not get
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I've been observing this article and the discussions here for a while. I would like to argue for re-instating the removed (and pretty substantially sourced) prestige statement in the lede as well as ask you to cut the bashing. For the former: I think in the case of
Harvard, calling it prestigious is
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clude. As I pointed out in another topic on this discussion page, there was a similar cheating scandal at Yale of almost the same magnitude yet that is not in the Yale article. Treat the schools the same. The same goes with the addition of Gay's resignation in the history section. Stanford's former
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Hello, I'd like to request adding a table contain all undergraduate courses offered by
Harvard. I believe this could be very helpful for those who are searching about universities and its degrees, in order to choose the best option without having to search each university's website. I'll send the
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because: 1. the cheating was "unprecedented in its scope and magnitude". 2. The
Crimson said it was news story most important to Harvard in 2012. 3. Plagiarism and academic dishonesty are major issues for Harvard since Prof. Gay stepped down. 4. The 2012 case reflected larger issues of: athletes
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Look at the controversy sections of
Goldman Sachs or McKinsey. And? They are still prestigious companies; or do you want to tell me otherwise? Look at the controversies and conspiracy theories surrounding the US government. And? The US government is still perceived as prestigious and the most
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forefront of the see also section etc.). Certainly, scandals occurred but now magnifying recent negative events and digging out older ones; in the grand scheme of things (an institutional history spanning almost 4 centuries); plus almost denying the school's prestige; that just isn't right.
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I feel the most recent scandals have somehow, for whatever reason (jealousy? Sour grapes of any sort?), "motivated" a few individuals to systematically discredit the school (here on Wiki) (e.g. removing the fact its prestigious, digging out a decade old cheating scandal and putting it at the
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I think the current formulation in the lede is very apt: "Its influence, wealth, and rankings have made it one of the most prestigious universities in the world." I can't imagine how even the most nervous defendants of keeping themselves prestigious could have a problem with that.
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I do not have a strong opinion on this - removal is okay with me as long as readers can follow a reasonable path to get to that article from this one. The suggestion above about adding this to the relevant template would be fine with me.
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Knowledge editors should be committed to revealing the necessary complexity in order to understand subjects better. Harvard is certainly a famous school, but many have pointed out that it is over-rated. Here are three examples:
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The 21st century history section mainly consists of explaining (or rather listing) the last few university presidents. Is this really a historic event when a president assumes office, steps down or retires? To me, this is
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Look a little closer, and then be more honest. And by the way, I could have easily listed ten sources here. People don't take the Ivy League as seriously as they used to, that is part of the Gay story. --
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enough votes to be included. Would be good if someone with some profound experience with wiki policies could chime in though and explain what happens when there is a draw in a discussion.
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It has been over ten years since the incident. At what point would you say that the incident no longer is relevant for gaining a better picture of
Harvard?
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If you think for even a moment that any of those "articles" are relevant to this discussion, then you're not competent to participate here. Seriously.
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cheating, grade inflation, and student networks. This is very relevant for gaining a better picture of
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Hmm... since there now seems to be rather a tendency among users in this discussion not to include (in said section and instead shift to where @
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One does wonder why this one thing, our of literally hundreds if not thousands of articles about
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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suggested), can someone therefore make the corresponding edit? I can't as the article is protected and I am an IP user...
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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suggests seems like a good idea to me. Is this the appropriate forum to seek consensus?
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same suggestion to other universities' Knowledge page. Thank you for the comprehension!
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Let me see if I have this right: your evidence is student-written opinion pieces?
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should be included in the See Also section of this page. I believe that this is
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I can currently see a draw on this matter. Three people for inclusion (@
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Even if it's a hundred years old? Then shouldn't we include, as @
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Re-instatig the prestige statement in lede and cut the bashing.
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wants to chime in on that one too as he could make changes.
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on Knowledge. Please visit the project page to join the
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123:Find sources:
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52:Learn to edit
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1482:open channel
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1354:I saw error
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19:This is the
346:renominated
284:written in
148:free images
31:not a forum
1523:Categories
1473:FlightTime
1460:using the
1410:|answered=
1325:|answered=
1288:WP:NOTNEWS
1010:Seasider53
920:Seasider53
552:discussion
432:column on
404:Not listed
389:Not listed
1452:consensus
1364:Not done:
1206:User:EEng
968:User:EEng
477:is rated
422:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1498:Kaoskray
1429:Kaoskray
1376:Cannolis
859:and the
845:WP:UNDUE
835:Editor @
548:colleges
299:traveled
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1249:Well, @
1052:ElKevbo
1018:ElKevbo
837:ElKevbo
730:on the
479:B-class
424:in the
371:Process
295:defense
243:91 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1504:McYeee
1457:before
1139:, and
696:Alerts
622:Boston
546:, and
485:scale.
374:Result
332:was a
126:Google
1414:|ans=
1404:This
1329:|ans=
1319:This
1016:and @
466:This
291:color
191:Index
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1508:talk
1433:talk
1380:talk
1346:talk
1296:talk
1259:talk
1230:talk
1180:talk
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1121:talk
1088:talk
1074:talk
1066:EEng
1056:talk
1035:talk
1022:EEng
976:talk
946:talk
934:EEng
924:talk
910:talk
896:talk
877:talk
867:and
368:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1412:or
1327:or
1220:or
1196:Eng
1165:Eng
1024:, @
1000:Eng
722:Top
176:TWL
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