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that
Knowledge capitalizes if sources seem to somewhat prefer capitals. The preference must be consistent (i.e. verging on universal) across independent reliable sources." I never like to add material to guidelines if it can be avoided, but after 20+ years it is clear that the extant wording is, in some strange way, not quite clear enough to a small subset of editors who very strongly persist in willfully misinterpreting it, no matter how many times RMs conclude the opposite of how they'd like them to conclude. This problem accounts for probably 75% of the conflicts over capitalization in RMs, and probably 95% of the drama about capitalization in RMs.
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very few
Knowledge editors agree with.). You know that I, and many other Knowledge editors, disagree with your interpretation; in fact it forms the basis of many of your complaints about "over capitalization" (who is doing the over-capitalization? It's not gremlins, it's other Knowledge editors.). I support you being able to voice your views; I suggest you accept that other people can have a difference of opinion and voice their views, rather than being capital-W Wrong.
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capitalization", which verges on the opposite. Even 25% could be argued to be "substantial", but is very obviously not the intent of the guideline. A 60% capitalization rate (especially after demonstrable influence from WP's own over-capitalization) is neither "consistent" capitalization nor "a substantial majority". In actual practice, RM expects to see a 90+ percent capitalization rate to consider it consistent across the substantial majority of indy RS.
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influence of WP on writers, especially among recent books that include so many enabled by WP. If you look at what proper names look like in n-gram stats, they are 95% and more capitalized. These arguments based on a recent modest majority are far short of our criteria. So it's not so simple as you say, see?
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bar of being "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" is nowhere near met. Consistency is also a non-argument, given the above evidence that articles on revolutions elsewhere are already completely mixed. Basically there is no valid reason to oppose given
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again and see. Second, when the n-gram stats show a recent modest preference for capitalization, that is counting occurences in titles (including titles of cited works) and headings and such; and for sources more recent than WP's capitalization of the term, there's also the "unreasonably effective"
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No, I know that the standard you prefer (as does Tony) is that MOS:CAPS suggests de-capitalizing if essentially anyone is found who might not capitalize it. And sometimes not even that (I've seen you argue that the
Knowledge MOS is so "powerful" that sources don't matter, which is simply a standard
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of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in
Knowledge ." Ngrams tend to over-report capitalisation since they do not distinguish things like headings, captions or the titles of works in citations that normally use title case. Allowing for this, we see a slight majority for the capitalised
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is entirely correct, yet a vague confusion that it somehow means this seems to be the source of a lot of RM repetitive but invalid arguments at RMs. It would probably make sense to just add a footnote at that part of MOS:CAPS (and the corresponding part of WP:NCCAPS) that says "This does not mean
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I would keep all of these with the existing capitalization except for maybe
Romanian, although I wouldn't actively press to have it recapitalized; your first batch is decisive evidence for those pages being treated as proper names, but this does not belittle the other revolutions currently being
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as Ham II indicated above. I don't find the list he provided "cherry picked" because they specifically include the term "revolution," like this article does. (And if there are articles on national revolutions where we don't capitalize the term, as SmC and
Cinderella seem to suggest, please show
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No, the majority of conflict articles not have the descriptive term (revolution, war, battle, offensive, rebellion, uprising, etc., etc.) capitalized. You've just cherry-picked a tiny handful that happen to pass the "are consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources" test. You have
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just a month or so ago. There are plenty of times I grudgingly think you're right, just I don't generally need to bother to vote in those cases because the anti-capitals crowd usually has good turnout at RM. But this case is quite straightforward: usage shows sources prefer capital R. Ergo
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LouisAragon, if you can 'find a plethore of sources that dismiss the "broadening of education and healthcare" stuff', why have you not done so? If you disbelieve that the broadening of education and healthcare 'is a IRI project, and not a continuation of the Shah's policies', why have you not
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That's not correct at all; you're trying to rewrite the guideline on-the-fly to mean what you wish it meant, which is sharply divergent from what it actually says and means. It requires consistent capitalization across a substantial majority of independent reliable sources, not "substantial
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treated as proper names; 99% support for capitalization is great and makes those completely indisputable, but 60%+ (i.e. 50% more support for capitalization) support is substantial enough that we should not default to downcasing when it is clearly not the common method;
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These examples (from ones mentioned above) span the range of marginal (Haitian, Russian) to clear (American, French) "consistently capitalized" per source statistics. The
Iranian revolution and the other recently lowercased ones do not come close to these.
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challenged this with evidence to the contrary? There ought to be a mention of the
Revolution's effect on domestic policy in the lead, and a one-sentence summary of a section of the main text is hardly burdening the lead with excessive text.
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shown in the nominator's own ngram; itself shows far more than a simple majority (+50% for capitalization); the method by which the prevailing style in sources has changed is irrelevant; all that matters is that it took place.
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Probably in all the these WP's over-capitalization has influenced the usage in recent years. We should not be doing that. Caps on WP mean proper name, and people believe us, so we should be careful not to over-cap things.
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WP had an article on the subject using "Iranian
Revolution", so the present lean toward capital R is clearly a case of citogenesis. And it doesn't constitute consistent capitalization in independent RS anyway.
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which should reduce some (not all) inclusion of title-case headlines, constrained to pertinent date ranges. It notably shows that "Iranian revolution" was overwhelmingly preferred until
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per
Amakuru. (And emphatically not on the basis that "consistently ... in a substantial majority" means something like "verging on universal" or "90+ percent". It does not.)
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A light apparent majority, caused by not weeding out title-case headlines, is not our standard. Consistently capitalized in independent RS is out standard. You know this.
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I've seen all of these points from you before; I know what your interpretation of the guideline is, but for now I will stand by mine even if you think it is "Wrong".
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that capitalization of the word "revolution" be consistent across all articles, nor should there be; Knowledge should follow the capitalization used in the sources.
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I've looked and I think there are only these five that have the same construction (without other modifiers or qualifiers, e.g. dates) and are in sentence case:
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is capitalised (because it is consistently capitalised in sources) and others, where it is lowercase. In short, there is no consistant capitalisation of
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Draw your own conclusions from more. Which would you change per guidelines, and which leave as they are?
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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To the extent that it is practical, titles should be consistent among articles covering similar topics.
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argument is spurious but disagree with the move for other reasons - which was the point of the post.
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Note that four of the five mentioned are entirely the work of Dicklyon, Cinderella, and SMcCandlish (
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majority of cap usage: this is not the case. GoodDay, this is not a forum for vague recollections.
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1978 Iranian politics, which has been
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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For the record, I am not some sort of reverse pro-capital letters extremist. Hell, I just
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say "WP capitalizes when sources seem to prefer capitals". Quite the contrary – read
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the practically unanimous support seen in, for example, American Revolution, only
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was only half capitalized 200 years ago, but more like 95% for the last century.
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per nominator's own ngrams which show a clear preference for capitalization.
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It's not nearly as simple as that, on two points: First, our guideline does
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is a pivotal issue for Khamenei, it is logical to make it so in the article.
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Our views on this case differ because the guidance at MOS:CAPS calls for a
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similarly, the evolution to proper name status is way over 100 years old.
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the n-gram stats for revolutions that we treat as having proper names:
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Indeed, we have fixed a lot of over-capitalized terms in recent years.
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was half capitalized 100 years ago, about 90% for the last 30 years.
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even without a formal RM), and all five are from after mid-2023.
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Knowledge also should use capital R. It is as simple as that.
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caps were in a minority until the latest year or two of stats
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should be capitalised in this article title misrepresents the
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to suggest there are exceptions to this instruction. Invoking
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As I've said before, this is an invalid rationale. There is
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criterion of "consistently capitalized" in reliable sources.
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361:. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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type arguments, meaning we have no choice but to move. —
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is more recent. Half capitalized in 2000, now around 90%.
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form but not a substantial majority required by MOS:CAPS.
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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just reached half capped in 2006, barely to 65% recently.
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say "WP capitalizes when sources seem to prefer capitals"
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please
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did a non-controversial move away from capital letters
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The two sources didn't support that statement anyways
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's
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This article has been checked against the following
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32:This is the
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1795:to suggest
1769:WP:TITLECON
1744:SMcCandlish
1724:and so on.
1654:SMcCandlish
1580:SMcCandlish
1517:SMcCandlish
1498:SMcCandlish
1458:SMcCandlish
1341:direct move
1333:current log
1304:Please use
1029:Structure:
917:Middle East
746:discussions
725:Iran portal
431:Peer review
363:renominated
307:not a forum
161:free images
44:not a forum
2396:Categories
2335:WP:IKNOWIT
2205:Revolution
1845:Jessintime
1843:them.) ~~
1817:revolution
1813:revolution
1797:revolution
1763:refers to
1451:WP:IKNOWIT
1337:target log
750:open tasks
477:column on
320:refactored
266:designated
2356:Charlotte
2261:support.
2253:does not
1975:To quote
1635:WP:NCCAPS
1390:permalink
1365:WP:NCCAPS
1324:directly.
558:is rated
467:Main Page
279:, or any
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
2330:MOS:CAPS
2251:MOS:CAPS
2236:Dicklyon
2172:Dicklyon
2125:Dicklyon
2087:Consider
2067:per the
2010:SnowFire
1977:SnowFire
1959:Dicklyon
1765:patterns
1639:MOS:CAPS
1609:MOS:CAPS
1555:Dicklyon
1550:MOS:CAPS
1532:SnowFire
1481:SnowFire
1421:Dicklyon
1417:MOS:CAPS
1369:MOS:CAPS
1293:succinct
990:criteria
921:Cold War
860:Politics
851:politics
807:Politics
455:Delisted
436:Reviewed
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2377:Support
2352:Support
2339:Amakuru
2322:Support
2255:require
1671:Support
1631:Support
1605:Comment
1438:GoodDay
1413:n-grams
1409:Support
1281:subpage
887:on the
782:on the
669:on the
560:B-class
469:in the
395:Process
326:at the
220:30 days
167:WP refs
155:scholar
2065:Oppose
1927:Ham II
1836:Oppose
1726:Ham II
1694:Oppose
1685:(talk)
1477:Oppose
1434:Oppose
1371:. See
1330:Links:
1214:Since
566:scale.
513:, and
398:Result
139:Google
1805:WP:AT
1789:WP:AT
1781:WP:AT
1646:after
1361:WP:AT
1312:. Do
1297:civil
642:Islam
633:Islam
589:Islam
547:This
204:Index
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
2367:talk
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2303:talk
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2014:talk
2000:talk
1985:here
1963:talk
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1849:talk
1838:per
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1807:and
1730:talk
1696:per
1680:Tony
1633:per
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1559:talk
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1381:talk
1373:here
1367:and
1316:use
1295:and
1224:talk
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1167:talk
1149:talk
755:Iran
738:Iran
694:Iran
661:High
392:Date
260:The
175:FENS
149:news
86:and
2290:😼
1987:),
1941:one
1803:of
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1467:😼
1392:).
1314:not
1272:bot
1258:to
1254:be
1195:. —
879:Mid
774:Top
318:or
189:TWL
2398::
2384:💬
2370:)
2364:•
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1339:•
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