Talk:James Strang - Knowledge

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you not find a direct citation of his statement - which is in any case obviously a subjective judgement? Also, are there not contemporaneous assessments of the Strangite behavior as being somewhat unsavory you might include to add balance? The review for the Strang biography - the link to which appears above - which you brand as likely biased because it appears on a LDS website, says the author "persuasively argues that charges of Strangite “consecration”—the church’s enemies called it thievery - were far from baseless, although she maintains that “Strangites did not steal anything more than the Gentiles stole from them” (330)"

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latter two authors of a critical portion of Strang's diary, which led them to some questionable conclusions about Strang's motives. He equally sought to rescue Strang's reputation from the sensationalist articles and other drivel that so often passed for "histories" of the man throughout the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Fitzpatrick was not the least bit interested in vindicating Strang's claims (not that this, of itself, would have made his book questionable as a source, by the way); rather, he wished to rescue Strang's reputation from the misrepresentations made by these two earlier biographers and others.

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are invited to examine these references, and if anyone (Iamknowledgable included) can find any subjectivity, you are welcome to elaborate on it, and if it's justified, we'll change the article accordingly. Otherwise, I don't see any legitimate reason to challenge my use of Fitzpatrick in this article, based on what I have presented, here. Nor have I seen one valid reason to demote it from "GA" status. -

688: 667: 2092:, and merely indicats that the man occupied that position (whether he was a real prophet, or--as we apparently both believe--a wannabe). Nothing more. Doesn't indicate approval or rejection of his prophetic claims, nor any statement on the quality of his performance in that role; merely that he occupied an office or position with that label on it. Nothing "subjective," here. Objection refuted. 1713:). In more than one instance, either subjective judgments concerning the behavior of the Strang or the Strangites is based on this source. Innuendos are incorporated in the language here, such as Strang's supposed "serving" as "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" - a position to which he apparently annointed himself to and which involved receiving to himself great personal wealth and multiple wives. 2291: 450: 1955:

term "serve" in that statement because that in itself is not neutral and unbiased. The sentence can be rewritten without the superfluous wording - and semantic baggage - simply "As Prophet, Seer and Revelator of his church..." (And there's a similar occurrence in a reference to LDS founder Joseph Smith which can also be thus trimmed.)

1901:(18) Note 74: Another ptentially "subjective" statement, and given the fact that the only sources for this seem to be Strangite ones, I've changed the article to reflect this, and added the Strangite source to cooborate Fitzpatricks. Okay--I'll grant this one, but only based upon the source issues involved, not on any "subjectivity". 2584:"They had not been home long when a knock was heard at the front door. Father went to the door and opened it, even though it was late for callers and none too many came calling. There before the door stood a man covered with blood, his hand in a sling made of a bloody handkerchief. Father invited him in and gave him a chair. 2079:

against Mr. Strang? If so, that's fine; I'm an agnostic, myself, and don't give a damn about any of his prophetic claims--which I personally think were laughable--but I DO want to see the man's story as accurately told as I (or anyone else) can tell it. If I've told a falsehood, expose it; and I'll

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I know this may seem petulant or childish to some, but I did it to make a point, namely that I just can't see anything that justifies an accusation of "subjective judgments" such as was made by User Iamknowledgable. I mean no offense whatsoever to this person, but I just can't see it. Other editors

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a vindication of Strang's prophetic claims--which Fitzpatrick openly rejected, as anyone who's ever read his book will know. Rather, it comprises a vindication of Strang against spurious claims by Milo Quaife and Omar Riegal--authors of two earlier "biographies" of Strang--namely misquotation by the

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These two photos (Bedford and the Voree Plates) were deleted from the article due to copyright issues. I thought I had gotten permission from the proper person to use them, but it turns out that gentleman was not the original copyright owner. Hence, in accordance with his instructions and Knowledge

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I was the initial GA reviewer. I actually though the lead was nice, but I agree it could use some expansion. The ibid format in the footnotes did not make for a difficult read at all. I must say just a note: this was most certainly not a "quick pass" - I went through and read the entire article.

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I am a descendant of "nonbeliever" who encountered King Strang's violent reign on Beaver Island, This article paints him as a gentle leader with he worst about hi being polygamy. An obvious whitewash. I am currently editing my great great grandmothers manuscript which include a chapter that not only

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thing that is "subjective" in Fitzpatrick's choosing to quote Sholes' statement, just as there is nothing "subjective" in itself when other biographers quote anti-Strang statements made by others, as well. They are simply reporting opinions offered by others, much like a news reporter might. There

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For instance, Christopher Sholes - who many years after Strang's death went on to work out the design for the first mass-produced typewriter - is quoted as vouching for the good behavior and character of Strang's followers through Fitzpatrick book. Sholes, after all, was a newspaper man himself: can

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As I said, Fitzpatrick's book has its issues, the greatest of which (in my opinion) is that it seeks more to be precisely what its title says--a "vindication" of Strang against misrepresentations made by earlier historians and biographers--than a detailed, comprehensive, critical study of his life.

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is so preoccuppied with seemingly burnishing Strang's reputation against assault that it completely leaves out material of actual interest that historians have studied. Elvira Fields, whose theological articles made her a major player in Strangism and whose intriguing ambiguity with gender make her

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I maintain anyone who compares the current version of this article to that which passed GA review in late 2007 cannot but see that it has been augmented and altered in ways which would tend to call into question its ability to pass the GA standard for being written in a neutral point of view manner

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You seem to think that Strang's claim to have "served" as "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" constitutes such a "subjective judgment"--but then again, so do similar claims mounted by hundreds of would-be "prophets" throughout history! Is Fitzpatrick's bio now suddenly suspect, simply because it reports

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subjective--just as the "unsavory" statements you want me to quote to provide so-called "balance" would be equally-subjective. Sholes (a non-Strangite and non-Mormon, BTW) had just as much right to offer his assessment of Strang as any other person on earth, and Fitzpatrick merely reports Sholes'

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care that the 1850 U.S. census lists him as "James J. Strang," not "Jessie James Strang." I would figure that the man clearly knew his own name, and ought to have been able to give it to the census taker correctly--not to mention that his associates of the time repeatedly refer to him as "James,"

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Your rejection of my comment regarding the term "serve" being employed to describe his position as "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" completely misses my point by painting it as a rejection that Strang held that position. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I simply object to the inclusion of the

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This is not the first time someone has questioned my use of Fitzpatrick's book, if I recall correctly. Hence, as a continuation of the retort I gave to the objections listed above, I provide the following note-by-note defense of each use of Fitzpatrick's work in this arcticle (21, out of 89 total

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different from how I learned it in school, but that's part of the overall wikipedia learning experience. I really appreciate all your hard work on this. I inserted a new footnote (moved the George Miller info from a citation to a footnote "b"), and created a "citations" header for that section.

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Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to put the information in the references section, thought I had, actually, but I guess I overlooked it. It's there now. As for how it's cited, in school, that's probably right, how you had it. But WP has it's own style for things, like closing quote placement,

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Lara, thanks very much for helping with the references on this article. Question: I notice that all references to the Book of the Law of the Lord were corrected to read "Strang: 1856," but there is no first reference naming this book. I've been out of school for awhile, and I know that things on

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Reviewing the sources, nearly all of them come from official Mormon church websites. While the citations refer to excerpts from otherwise uncited newspaper articles, etc. that are mentioned on these website, few independent citations for these sources are given. Since the websites in question are

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Far better sources are available and should be consulted. Vickie Cleverly Speek appears in the sources list but is cited only once; Roger van Noord is similarly cited only once; and Miles Harvey, Don Faber, and several others aren't in the sources at all. Any quality article that summarizes what

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I will be out of town for a week starting Sunday, but you are welcome to respond to any of this as you like, and we can continue the discussion upon my return. Please again understand that none of this is meant "personally" toward you; I'm sure your objections are totally good-faith, just as my

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that book for yourself. Not saying you haven't; I'd just like to know. If you have, please tell me, specifically, what you find objectionable about the specific things I used it as a source for--per "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated", above--and we can talk. If you haven't, you ought to read it before

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to me and the rest of us that Fitzpatrick's book is an invalid source for the material I used it for (see "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated," above), and I'll find another source. Otherwise, I'm under no obligation whatsoever to do so. I'm getting the impression (rightly or wrongly, and if wrongly, I

2010:) that Fitzpatrick's book--specifically, for the references I used it for (see "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated" above)--is an invalid source. With all due respect, you have not done this--and until you do so, I am not under any obligation whatsoever to provide other sources in any of those instances. 1742:

Mr. Fitzpatrick's book, as I have, or you'd probably know that already. And since BYU is the flagship university of a church that is directly and historically opposed to Strang's prophetic claims, I think a good case could be made against the objectivity of that reviewer's characterization of

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Of particular concern is the "Assassination" section, which claims that Strang was ambushed, shot in the back, and "not one person on board the ship made any effort to warn or to aid the intended victim". Such a claim really should have a better source than an Apologetics website belonging to

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uses I detailed in "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated" above, Fitzpatrick was not being one bit subjective in any of those instances, save the one I noted. You have not provided one iota of evidence to prove otherwise. If you want me to find other sources you need first to prove (not just allege, but

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OFFICIAL Mormon website run by the Mormon church (see "mormonbeliefs.com", a frequent source for this page), the neutrality (and accuracy) of these newspaper excerpts, etc. is called into question. Can anyone provide a third-party source for some of these newspaper excerpts, etc.?

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I do appreciate your not intending any insult towards me, and I feel likewise towards you, but nonetheless I am somewhat concerned that alterations of this formerly excellent article subsequent to being approved under the Knowledge GA standards do not measure up to that standard.

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he was making such a characterization. Add to that this gentleman's use of "questionable" to describe certain of Strang's doctrines, and one definitely has reason to challenge how neutral and objective his review is--and equally to challenge your use of it as one basis for your

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It relies heavily on one particular source - a book by Doyle C. Fitzpatrick titled The King Strang Story: A Vindication Of James J. Strang - which among similar biographies of Jessie James "King" Strang was alone labeled as "partisan" by a Brigham Young University reviewer

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Knowledge are different from what I was taught in English class there and in college (no "ibids," etc. on Knowledge, for instance), but shouldn't we make the first reference to the Book of the Law a full reference, with Book title, etc.? Thanks again for your work! -

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The delisting above was very due. This article is in very unfortunately shabby shape for a figure of such interest and influence in American religious history, and with several serious biographies written about him. Often while reading I had the sense

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to do that, given that the Fitzpatrick book itself IS a valid source, as I used it (see "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated," above. I freely admit that Fitzpatrick's book, like all biographies ever written since the beginning of time, is subjective--maybe even

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Why, if so many of these citations can be be corroborated through other sources than the Fitzpatrick book and the Strangite sect is this not done? I would urge you to improve the article in that regard or revert it to its previous incarnation.

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particular usages are wrong. Nor can you demonstrate that Fitzpatrick is unreliable in the places I used him for, simply because he stated his own opinions elsewhere in his bio--not without equally calling into question all of those

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The man told how Strang had tied him to a tree and whipped him and nearly killed him because he tried to liberate his brother , whom they had tied to another tree and cut his heart out and hung it on a stick where he could see it."

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is not one shred of merit in your objection. If you would like to add statements by some reasonably-notable (or even not notable) persons negative toward Strang, you are welcome to do so, if you cite the sources as I have done.

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relays the family's fears when they sailed to this island to fish for the summer but of her encounter with a bloody man whom Strang had ordered beaten and sought help at her doorstep. Here is an excerpt of the manuscript:

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Copious use of in-line citations, moreso than most GA candidates actually. References section is well formatted with good sources, external links looks like it provides reader with some interesting further reading on the

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because of the website, but because the author used a subjective adjective to describe Fitzpatrick's book, without ever offering any explanation of why he had done so. He didn't use any adjectives to describe the

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bios of the man, as in all histories ever written. Are we upset because Fitzpatrick seeks to extol Strang as a man (even though he utterly rejects his claims), rather than to tear him down as it seems

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subjective, as he is ofttimes throughout his bio--this is one weakness of it, and you will recall that I affirmed that I had issues of my own with his book. However, other biographers have been

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biographer is subjective to a degree--Fitzpatrick, as a former business executive rather than an academic, is simply more blunt about it, in places. But the subjectivity is there in

1797:(4) How does Strang's having allegedly "anointed himself" have anything to do with the veracity of Fitzpatrick's book as a source, or this article's GA worthiness?? Please explain. 1728:

I wrote a good portion of this article, and while Fitzpatrick's book has its issues, the things I quoted from it are sound. The "vindication" Fitzpatrick spoke of in the title was

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Jensen, Robin Scott (2007). "Mormons Seeking Mormonism: Strangite Success and the Conceptualization of Mormon Ideology, 1844–50". In Bringhurst, Newell G.; Hamer, John C. (eds.).

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very interesting to historians, almost wholly disappears from Strang's life. Meanwhile, the page is crowded with irrelevant remarks like how Strang was better than Smith because

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have to do with GA worthiness? Fitzpatrick never said one word about any such wealth, so what source(s) do you care to offer to tell the rest of us where you came up with that??

1768:, not Jesse James Strang. One would imagine that anyone seeking to challenge the veracity of this article or its worthiness for GA could at least get Mr. Strang's name right?? 2711:

This article has a number of claims lacking citations, and relies heavily on citations to the subject's own works. There may also be some issues with plagiarism - for example

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reliable secondary sources have to say about James Strang should cite the following (non-exhaustive). I have added these to the main article as "Further references".

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thing yet that you have said that holds any water, here. You say "served" is somehow subjective--I don't see how. Same with your complaints about its usage in the

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All in all a comprehensive article, one can tell lots of work went into this, especially with referencing and citations. Good job! Next step I would suggest a

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might desire? Are the critics "objective" because they criticize Strang, while Fitzpatrick is "subjective", for defending him? I didn't use Fitzpatrick for

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whipped, on Strang's orders. Bedford himself testified to this, and to his own resulting determination to seek revenge on Strang, by killing him. See

1790:(3) Where's the "great personal wealth" you say Strang amassed (since Strang himself certainly never seems to have ever had any of it!!), and what does 1783:

that Strang made such claims? After all, I think ALL of the sources listed in the BYU review would indicate Strang said the same thing, does that make

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has been revising the article quite a bit and has both expanded the lead and removed the 'ibid's. My objections have been removed. Good job. Cheers!

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sources or to negatively reviewed secondary sources and too little awareness of the serious scholarship on Strang that is available to be cited.

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be described as subjective! It wasn't just the site; more than that, it was these facts I have mentioned here that led me to offer that opinion.

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The King of Confidence: A Tale of Utopian Dreamers, Frontier Schemers, True Believers, False Prophets, and the Murder of an American Monarch

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Beshears, Kyle (Spring–Summer 2023). "'In Love and Union': The Writings of Mr. Charles J. Douglass, Secret Plural Wife of a Mormon King".

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Does this article yet meet Knowledge's Good Article criteria since being altered subsequent to passing review in late 2007? I think not.

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kinds of references; I used his book for the things I indicated in "Fitzpatrick, Vindicated," above, and you haven't proven that any of

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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GAR now closed (keep!), but please check the archived discussion in case there are still useful suggestions for minor improvements.

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own impressions and opinions of Strang into what they wrote, too. There's no such thing as truly "objective" history, my friend!!

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From a perusal of the article history and the respective edit summaries going back a few months, the article appears to be stable.

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maintains that the Gentiles did not steal..." etc.; I assume that was a typo? Now here, I would agree that Fitzpatrick is being

2048:(5) I am not required to find another independent source for Sholes' comment, for the same reason I used in item "2" above. You 468: 2063:(6) Your objection to my use of "serve" is almost incomprehensible to me. I don't get it. You're upset because I said "Strang 1608: 1576:(one of Strang's newspapers). I will rewrite the sentence, using these citations. If anyone finds any other references in the 1476: 1432: 3141: 3126: 1860:(11) Note 35: This is Sholes' opinion, not Fitzpatricks or mine; Fitzpatrick is merely quoting it. Where's the "subjectivity?" 2769:

so bad that my first reaction was that any kind of review, even a critical one, would give it a dignity that it didn't deserve

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DeRogatis, Amy (Spring–Summer 2023). "Intimate Exposure: The Charley Douglass Daguerreotype and American Religious History".

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Fitzpatrick's book as being "partisan" in the first place--especially since this reviewer didn't bother to explain precisely

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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retorts are. I wish you all the best, and look forward to your reply upon my return, if you wish to make one. Cheers! -

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regarding Strang's excommunication, together with Strang's own comments on having never been summoned for a trial, in the

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titles, so why that one? He also uses the adjective "questionable" to describe Strang's "doctrines;" who died and made

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Blythe, Christopher James (June 2014). "The Coronation of James J. Strang and the Making of Beaver Island Mormonism".

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apologize!) that you have something "personal" against Fitzpatrick and/or his book, and I am wondering if you've even

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070929122436/http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1970/4/1970_4_4.shtml

1890:(17) Note 73: Okay, here's the first possibly "subjective" statement I've found. Now it's indisputable that Bedford 1413: 2355: 2208: 2648: 1600: 594: 2377: 3041: 2191: 1820: 1689: 1366:

Article seems to be presented in a NPOV manner, both in its use of language and use of citations, as noted above.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131021190040/http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/Strang%2C%20The%20Martyred%20Prophet.htm

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131021190040/http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/Strang%2C%20The%20Martyred%20Prophet.htm

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131021190040/http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/Strang%2C%20The%20Martyred%20Prophet.htm

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That said, I haven't seen one reason in your objection to reject it as a viable source, as used in this article.

1030: 991: 923: 884: 818: 779: 104: 20: 1382:, but that's okay. Could use perhaps two more public domain or fair use rationale images, but no biggie here. 129: 2640: 2387: 2220: 1830:(1) Note 6: This fact is confirmed in so many different sources that it doesn't even merit elaboration, here. 74: 2704: 1949: 2700: 2530: 2486: 2328: 1895: 389: 206:, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the 2774:

The only author cited on the page more often than Fitzpatrick is James Strang himself, whose writings are

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besides this one. More to the point, a review in an academic journal for Mormon history called the book

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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As to the proper sequence of "King" Strang's name, that is also a mootable point as can be discerned at

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as assistant manager of a Checker's restaurant?" Where's the issue, here??? I don't see it. Are you

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before (as you affirm), but is so terrible today?? Please provide specific examples, if you would.

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