Talk:Lidia Thorpe - Knowledge

775:

self-determination led to several other Aboriginal-run organisations being established, all underpinned by what Alma called a spirit of ‘independence, integrity and land rights’. Alma poured all her energy into the Health Service. As her fellow founder and mentor, Dr Bruce McGuiness, put it, “Without Alma Thorpe there wouldn’t have been a health service.” The Service aimed to provide quality health and dental care to the Aboriginal community. From one doctor and a committed group of volunteers, it has grown to employ many staff across several sites around Melbourne. For Alma, the role of the Service was as much social as it was medical. It brought people together and gave them a sense of belonging. It built an awareness of health issues in the community that had not been there before. There was also a welfare component to her work, as Alma would help the men who lived in the suburb’s parks apply for benefits. Alma set up many initiatives through an offshoot of the VAHS known as the Mother Service. These include the Yappera Children’s Service, which provides child care, and a youth club and gym opened in 1977. The latter is now known as Melbourne Aboriginal Youth Sport and Recreation (MAYSAR)...

2941:

We cannot possibly report on everything controversial that Thorpe does. That would be undue. The same applies to, and overlaps with, all the negative things that are reported about her by NewsCorp alone. We have to be discerning, and select content for her article that is significant, and reported in multiple sources. (I count all NewsCorp outlets as only one source.) The measure here needs to be whether what she did was significant politically in the medium to long term. Was it a change of mind on something. A new policy on a new issue? Those belong in the article. Doing something that only NewsCorp wants to tells us about in a negative way doesn't. This means that we should end up with less of a daily log of sensational things she has done. I don't think we even need a separate Controversies section.

2923:

politicians fall in between these two extremes, but there are examples at both ends of the spectrum. I would be surprised if many considered the subject of this BLP to be within the two extremes. As such, if all the controversial actions were moved out of the political career section to the controversies section, would there be anything left? If someone uses controversy as a political tool, is description of that activity not best left in the political career section? When Lidia Thorpe marches in to the Senate with fist held high and head bowed, she is being controversial, but she is making a political statement. When Lidia Thorpe lays down on the road at Mardi Gras, she is being controversial, but she is making a political statement. Etc etc.

1752:). We shouldn't use that every time someone disagrees with someone (because politicians spend their time disagreeing with each others haha, Knowledge would be full of "controversies"!). In this case I don't think it's big enough to be labelled this way - I also don't think many newspapers called it that way (I've seen mainly articles explaining what happened and giving a couple of reactions). So I think the lead should just describe what happened objectively (what she campaigns for, what happened, what were the reactions to this locally and globally) without using the word "controversy" and let the readers make their own opinion. For some inspiration also see 3314: 960:) makes it pretty clear that in the first sentence we should be giving their country of citizenship. Obviously the First Nations nationality should also be in the lead somewhere, preferably in the first paragraph. As for sources, given most of them are likely to be Australian and as such have no need to identify the nationality of other Australians, I'm not sure that actually tells us much. In Thorpe's case, though, we do have sources indicating she explicitly does not identify as Australian so an exception may be appropriate; this should not be extended to other articles unless they too have 538: 670: 652: 612: 3479: 417: 2436:" ... I hope you are not referring to me. I don't remember ever stating that I removed it because I am "left wing." Nonetheless, Knowledge is not the place for politically centrist coverage, and it is okay to represent "right wing" perspectives, just not as a solitary voice - the current inclusion of the quote makes it appear as if it is something of a universal criticism. As I have written above, Knowledge is not the place for this sort of provocation in talk pages and edit summaries, please be professional and courteous, and stop embarrassing yourself! 2679:

website is heavily used a source on this article. Also a political party's newspaper would hardly be the same as Sky News. Is Sky News a prohibited source on wikipedia? There is no good reason for us to doubt his identity. If you doubt his identity then why not doubt the mother's identity too. At the very least, we should say something about her father's identity being unconfirmed, but believed to be Roy Illingworth. It's very unusual to just say a mother's name on its own.

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right wing to pass go. That isn’t acceptable in this collaborative venture, to which those of various beliefs contribute, is it. You will have seen that the quoted words I reinstated today are but a fraction of those deleted by another left wing "I delete anything I consider to be right wing" editor. So…play fair? If you have a comment on her which is positive, comes from somewhere acceptable and is not undue, then edit it in? But let something you

514: 288: 264: 233: 441: 3269: 586: 410: 631: 3366: 562: 2414:, you are essentially admitting that you are editing from a biased perspective. Knowledge is a place for articles spoken from a neutral tone. Hildebrand is a conservative opinion columnist who attacks this specific political party relatively consistently and I would argue is not consistent with the mainstream view of her defection. I simply cannot assume you are editing in 2580:'antics' for lack of a better term end up falling through the cracks when there is no political connection. I don't see how hurling racial abuse and threatening young people in front of a strip club at 3am because a group of black men had a white friend can be logically extrapolated from descriptions of her political slant. It doesn't fit under activism, where does it go? 298: 1392:"You're making it worse. There is nothing in the article about 'praise' or her being a businesswoman. Other Category:Indigenous Australian politicians are called Australian. Someone who holds elected office is not an 'activist'. It is not our problem if you're unwilling to take note of previous discussions. Please explain your disagreement on the talk page." 1763:

accurate to describe her as a politician and specify what she campaigns for. Also any politician could claim they're an activist (they all change the law) so it's not adding much and we shouldn't fall for PR strategies but report things neutrally. The rest of the article should describe any previous activism to truly reflect what she did before too.

2167:

article could reflect that quite easily and also legitimately. Look, it’s her former top staffer, not the office junior, who made the statements, and he made them officially. What he says is pretty damning. All of that makes what he says notable. Ergo, it should be in the article. No, I wouldn’t use "damning" in any edit. smh.

1844:: Leon agrees that there were problems with their original wording. They reword the sentence and insert it back into the lead, saying it's important enough to be in the lead. They also think this version is an improvement cos it's sourced, unlike the original wording which had no references (although they were in the body). 1138:

So Clan Corporation was not a company, and this is confirmed by a Google search for “Clan Corporation Pty Ltd” - in parentheses. It gives no results. So she can never have been managing director of it. Whether there are any other RS’s saying she was MD of it is if no consequence, because it cannot

1042:

Without the photos, one would assume on reading this article that Thorpe is of entirely Indigenous Australian ancestry. I mean, it's very obvious from her appearance that she is of mostly European descent, and yet the article ignores that in a sort of Emperor's New Clothes fashion. Has anyone written

3130:

Again I point out that NewsCorp's goal is always going to be to publish negative material about Thorpe, whether it's the truth or not. (I challenge you to find something positive about her from that entire organisation.) If it's is as obvious as you say who her father is, there MUST be other sources

2940:

That's a very good point you made there. Some politicians (and some non-politicians) pretty much use controversy as their stock-in-trade. This means that when someone like Thorpe does something controversial, it often isn't particularly newsworthy. It's just what she does in her (almost) daily life.

2922:

Some politicians do their job by merely stating their preferred policy and debating it. At the other end of the spectrum, some politicians use controversy whenever they have the opportunity, to make their point, and somehow cannot help but be controversial. In either case, this is how they are. Most

2462:

Newscorp lies about The Greens. This is well documented. I can't be bothered digging up examples, but I know that at least some are recorded somewhere in Knowledge. It has no credibility in this area. There is absolutely no point including a negative comment about a Greens politician from a NewsCorp

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right wing. I consider it to be centre leaning right. It was critical of ScoMo. Has MSNBC or CNN or even our own ABC ever said anything positive about Donald Trump? Yet they are all "RS's". Your opinion is just that, it is opinion. Clearly you are not going to allow anything which you consider to be

1949:

She cannot be a federal MP unless she is Australian due to the operation of s44. Describing her as Aboriginal is accurate and well-sourced but not notable in the way that Senator Neville Bonner was, due to being the first Aboriginal Australian MP. We've had numerous other Indigenous MPs since Bonner

1933:

Thanks everyone for your contributions this has been very pleasant! Leontrooper thanks for sharing your POV, I think a lot of disputes come from trouble communicating so I'm happy to hear your feedback. I'm happy for us to implement Alan's points. I think that using Aboriginal vs Australian is quite

1811:

Leon has pinged me to describe how I had issues with how the lead summised reaction to Thorpe's political views. When I edited the page to express my problems, Leon and I worked together to improve the morphology as much as possible via multiple revisions, which resulted in the current wording. I am

1780:

No. Clearly I see not supporting evidence of this and we don't mention (past) jobs of most politicians in the lead, unless they were known for this (e.g. Trump was a famous businessman before politics). Sounds just heavily promotional here. Some other bits of the article sound also a bit promotional

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Multiple news sources report that Lidia's father is Roy Illingworth. The Australian, Courier Mail, Herald Sun, Sky News, news.com.au, Northern Territory News. It is very unusual to list only her mother. When her father was deleted we even got left with a syntax error. "born to and Marjorie Thorpe".

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Thanks both! I agree "Australian" is not an option. Nationality is one of the rare things one can't just self identify as. The article could expand on her views if it's sourced and notable but the lead should clearly reflect her nationality. And fine to leave "Aboriginal" out of the lead (but still

1523:

Ok I'm working on improving my editing, can you show me the policy about not including refs? And what do you mean it does not improve the lead? I think my edit makes the context clearer and more succinct, whereas at the moment it focuses only on one side of a criticism without context which I don't

1508:

We can agree to disagree about the businesswoman stuff. First you created a false equivalence about the controversies, and you've removed it from the lead completely. Your other edits do not improve the lead either. Lead section should not contain refs, which you would know if you'd take note of WP

1449:

This website does not seem to be a reliable and neutral source. Some random people agreeing with her (which is going to be the case for any statement by any politician) does not warrant being equivalent to the real controversy. You're free to take it to dispute resolution, but you're the one who is

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If she is a member of the Australian Senate, then if she is saying that she is not an Australian citizen and holds loyalty to some other nation then she is claiming to be in breach of s44. She sounds like she has some difficulty with comprehension - but that's not rare for a politician. What do the

2579:

I'm aware of the trend away from a reductionist 'controversies' section, however I believe at this point there is so much left uncaptured by this article that the neutrality is severely impacted. I understand many of her actions can and should be spoken to through a political lens, but some of the

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Lidia in general is viewed as a divisive, extreme left socialist who is literally doing her best to divide a conquer using "sovereign nations" as feeble and almost laughable attempt to win herself popularity. But instead pretty much everyone cannot stand even the sight of her. She has and will not

1791:

My suggestion based on all this: if you feel like the 5 suggestions above are reasonable you could update the lead this way an then keep working on improving the article. Remember, a consensus is rarely perfect but allows us to move forward so we can all spend more time working on this article and

1728:

Thanks everyone for summarising the two main opinions here! I've carefully read your summaries, the discussion above and the edits. Thanks all for engaging in a healthy debate and for your opinions, they all are very valid - and I guess that's why it's sometimes hard to find a consensus. There's a

1706:

My main point is that articles about controversial politicians should not create a false equivalence to give an illusion of neutrality. The main text should accurately reflect independent and reliable sources, the lead in turn should reflect that. "Controversy" is a difficult thing to deal with on

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Somehow or other the "managing director" words have crept back in. This cannot be true - re-read this whole section to understand why. I am deleting the para. about it, because it is clear that Clan Corporation is not ongoing, was only ever very short-term if at all, and in any case she can never

3065:

I'd suggest a more significant proportion of Australians wouldn't know which newspapers are owned by who. I can't find it on any non-NewsCorp paper, because her (alleged?) father was interviewed by Sky so all the NewsCorp brands are citing the interview. The Sky interview is, I believe, the first

2678:

Regarding her father, the only interview he did was with Sky News. If ABC or another left-wing source interviewed him, then we could use it. news.com.au is reporting him as her father, so is the Courier Mail, so is the Herald Sun. It's ironic that you mention citing the Greens, because the Greens

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After having a look over the article its actually mostly just listing controversies, so I'm gonna move those to a controversies section. It seems that this page has just been built up of people adding controversial news as it happens and not writing anything else about what a politician might be

2355:

What I wrote about the Murdoch media was anything but a confrontationally dismissive accusation. It was the absolute truth. And I challenged you to prove me wrong with "I would like to bet they have never said anything positive about her." Have they? Over to you. If you can find anything from the

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Not at all. You dismissed all of “the Murdoch media" as being in your opinion unreliable. I employed sarcasm in showing you why that view is unreasonable. If you wish to make confrontationally dismissive accusations like you did about "the Murdoch media", then you have no right at all to be upset

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I was merely describing the who and how the complaints were made as high level. That is obvious. The article could reflect what is says there either word for word or paraphrase and neither would be OR. The news article uses the word claim once, but goes into great depth as to the who and how. The

1865:: Leon decides to expand the sentence for specificity in order to describe what Thorpe's political beliefs are. I send thanks to Leon three minutes later for this. Leon otherwise doesn't raise any issues with how the sentence is worded, and the phrasing is not changed by them, me, or anyone else. 1396:

I added praise because you said it wasn't NPOV when I edited the criticism part, but sure I can get a source for that. There is plenty of information in the article about her being a businesswoman, including being involved with Pay the Rent and Clan Corporation. She was an activist before being a

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dated 10th July 2023 quotes Thorpe saying that "50 next month", implying that she was born in August 1973. Currently her Wiki article only states that she was born in 1973. I do not know how to correctly edit birth years and months on Knowledge articles – otherwise, I would have done so already.

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The small paragraph about the strip club incident had multiple news sources, feel free to check them again. To characterise it as all being from Sky News is false. It is being covered by virtually every news outlet except ABC who only reported the Prime Minister's comments days later. And it was

2999:. Do you think we should list neither instead? If we're only going to list the mother it's conspicuous that we're not mentioning her father. Or we could say his identity is unconfirmed. Given they're estranged it's unlikely she will confirm it. And even if she did how would we know it was true. 774:

In 1973, she helped establish the Victorian Aboriginal Health Service (VAHS) in an old building in Fitzroy’s Gertrude Street.... Its creation was significant. After decades of marginalisation and institutional neglect, Aboriginal people were taking charge of their own interests. This spirit of

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Both, but more clearly and in the right order. For clarity, use the standard model of separating (1) the standard roles "Australian politician" and other official descriptions/positions and (2) in another sentence or paragraph specify "first Aboriginal senator from Victoria" as it's also very

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While I think she matches the exact definition of an activist ("a person who campaigns to bring about political or social change") I agree it would add confusion. Most people associate "activist" with NGOs and other movements - because she's an elected representative it probably would be more

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so after you find a consensus about the lead I'd also suggest spending some time reviewing the rest of the article (e.g. it's nice to know that "she was very competitive" when playing football as a kid but it doesn't add value here and sounds like it was added because it looks good for her).

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Thorpe is often seen with a red, black and yellow flag, colors which are used on the flags of Belgium, Germany and probably other countries, plus other uses. If the flag can not be seen in full, it is hard to figure out what it is. Could someone please add that the flag used by her is the

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Oh good grief, how stupid of me!!! *hits forehead*. I should have remembered. Nothing even allegedly right wing (which news.com.au is, *allegedly* right wing. And I’d consider it to be neither left nor right wing) …can *ever* be considered to be reliable, whilst all left wing sources are

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These are all papers owned by NewsCorp quoting the talk-show on Sky. Generally, talk-show pundits are not considered reliable. I'd be interested to hear if others think that NewsCorp quoting NewsCorp give it any credibility, as it is true that some NewsCorp papers are more reliable than

1621:

Rather than having a lead stating 'controversy', we just have a section stating she is the Greens Minister for X (First Nations & Republic), and is known for being outspoken her opinions on Y (Opposition to the Voice, Republicanism). Knowledge has recently tended to adding too many

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by the Labor government, after it ousted the Liberal-National coalition from power). The previous source was a copy of the official government publication, held on a website supported by the Catholic Church; presumably the original publication is a better source. I've used it in the

1622:'controversies' attached to contemporary politicians as a reductionist way of covering issues. We don't have Turnbull listed as controversial for advocating for a republic, or Abbott for keeping the crown. People who were historically seen as 'controversial' within the media such as 1434:

If you want the criticism in the lead, then you can have it balanced. It doesn't really need to be in the lead, we could strip it? If you want to keep completely undoing my edits though, I'll be taking it to dispute resolution. If you have a problem with one part, change that part.

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You need to consider whether this event is notable enough to warrant such a large addition to the page, or it becomes unbalanced. eg.There's much more text in the newly added section on Thorpe having a stoush at a strip club than Thorpe leaving the Greens. One is obviously more

1744:. I agree this event is important and controversial but I feel like we usually label things as "controversies" in leads when it's closer to a scandal (typically would last for months, there would be allegations of wrongdoings and there would even be investigations, etc. - see 1670:

Poketama changed 'Australian' to 'Aboriginal' even though a discussion on the talk page did not lead to a consensus to change that. Poketama did not enter the discussion, just went ahead. Similarly flat-out refusing to read edit summaries to learn about the above discussion.

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You can't rely on only one source, especially a notoriously biased one. I would say the same if someone was using the Green Left newspaper as a sole source. eg. I did some searching and honestly have no clue if the bloke on Sky News saying he's Thorpe's father actually

1610:

Leontrooper added content to the lead about public criticism of Lidia Thorpe (BLP), I tried to clean up the phrasing of the overall lead and balance the criticism line to provide context, they have repeatedly reverted my edits without, I feel, constructive feedback.

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The precedent for First Nations/Indigenous senators was that their nationality is not described as Australian, if they do not identify as such. Most news sources don't label Thorpe as Australian; instead labelling (if they do) their nationality as Gunnai-Gunditjmara

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says. The Australian is an appalling source for anything to do with The Greens and/or Thorpe, even Labor. It lies. You really need a better source. And I can assure you that anyone with an objective view of political coverage in Australia is going to agree with me.

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Not only does she have majority of European ancestry, but her life experiences are completely that of a white woman. She has never lived an Aboriginal lifestyle among Aboriginal people, so calling her Aboriginal is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.

1658:

My first edit was adding information on the swearing-in controversy and an interview of Thorpe. I simultaneously added a sentence to the lead section to summarize the (controversies listed in the) #Senate subsection. Subsequently, there was a back and forth with

2688:

It's not wikipedia's fault if Lidia Thorpe is notable mainly for her controversies. What notable work she has done as a senator is a good question, feel free to include it if you find any. But you can't delete A just because you think there should be more B.

1370:

I think it's more reasonable to place the "burden of proof" on the editor challenging the status quo. Please elaborate on your disagreement with the text and provide reliable and independent sources for your information. I have manually reverted your edits.

2858:

It was a joke. You suggested that the actual manager who banned her and gave his explanation in a 7News interview about banning her, was "everyone who shouts loudly". Do you agree that the manager is relevant to the story and not an uninvolved commentator?

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She was discharged from bankruptcy in late 2016, so could not have traded legally until then. It was “not very active” in September 2017. Was she ever trading as Clan Corporation? We don’t know. We do know that it can only ever have been for a very short

1934:

tricky and honestly not worth fighting about atm, maybe a guidelines project for another time. I think they shouldn't be noted as Australian in the lead because they dont identify as such, but I'm happy for now to have that fact included in the body.

2633:

You're gonna have to do better than this, this is a BLP and controversies are by their nature...controversial. If you can't write a balanced view of events because of lack of information, you can write a very basic neutral statement or leave it off.

3115:

Sky News / NewsCorp are the ones who tracked him down and interviewed him, maybe even paid him. Or maybe he went to them. But other outlets don't have anything to report about him independently, they'd only be reporting on a competitor's interview.

2825:

The manager of the club in question, the one who banned her, is not just anyone. He is integral to the story. And he didn't shout loudly, he said this when interviewed by 7News. He certainly didn't shout any louder than Lidia Thorpe did that night.

2619:

There is going to continue to be additions on controversies that Thorpe is involved in. A pattern I've seen on this page is huge paragraphs written about one controversy with citations to one right-wing source. (especially Sky News). A few problems

2123:

Reading the SMH article, it’s clear that this cannot be dismissed as mere "claims". (1) The statements about the bullying were actually pretty high level, official even, not just chit chat, and (2) they were made by her former top staffer. As such,

3050:

A significant proportion of Australians these days (and Americans, and Brits) are extremely contemptuous of anything from Rupert Murdoch. As soon as they see a source from NewsCorp, they will be very sceptical. Can you not find anything else?

1691:

Then, Poketama dug up a website article with clearly promotional content to create a false (in my view) equivalence between support and opposition to Thorpe's actions/words. (Also adding a ref to the lead even though the lead follows the

3066:

time her father has been named publicly, though I've seen rumours pre-dating it. Obviously other outlets don't want to touch it, or maybe aren't allowed to touch it because it's an exclusive. But given The Australian is Green status in

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aren't listed as being controversial for opposing the Vietnam war. This article also needs significant improvement; we highlight 'criticism' in the introduction while not even mentioning her opposition to the Voice to Parliament.

1285:

The summary of the article reads "Her political persona is outspoken, unorthodox and confrontational." I question the neutrality and objectivity of the article by painting such a partial depiction of Lidia Thorpe in the summary.

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of the founders, as both Knowledge articles state, we need a reliable source to that effect. But the Age article doesn't say that, so is not a good enough reference for this particular fact. But we may have a better one!

1493:

I'm not edit warring I'm addressing your issues and editing them, not just reverting. Can you address what I've said already? She is a business woman its explained in the article and cited, I've cleaned up some formatting.

1012:

Would rephrasing "an Australian independent politician. She has been a senator for Victoria since 2020" to "a politician who has represented Victoria in the Australian senate since 2020" avoid the Blak Sovereignty issue?

1043:

about this? Any newspaper source continues this bizarre charade. I understand the long history of abuse and exclusion, but this is supposed to be a repository of facts. is there any info out there on who her father was?

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The tone is clearly promotional. There is a consensus that the controversy should be in the lead section, and you came waltzing in here without taking note. See above for the other issues. Stop edit warring please.

3296:

I work for Senator Lidia Thorpe. She has requested you please remove the link to the Official Website. She is no longer in the Greens Party. We will send link to new official website when it is online. Thanks, Joe

1245:

It suggests no such thing. It can equally easily suggest that she has simply not gotten round to cancelling it, or alternatively has merely decided to hold onto the name. She does have a strong feeling for Clans.

2720:

4. I have not deleted controversies I have removed the fluff that is unnecessary on an encyclopedia. Go to a good quality politicians page and you will not see paragraphs upon paragraphs of tabloid controversies.

1701:

I strongly disagree with Cateline52's viewpoint. It is a fact that Thorpe has been the subject of (international) controversy, which goes beyond holding a minority opinion. Her idea would restore the promotional

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No, that's obviously NOT what she's known for. More specifically, the first source there speaks of "claims". The second has the word "allegations" in the headline. We cannot base our content on such material.

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going to share our teamwork for the sake of Alan and Poketama. But I am not stating my thoughts on the current dispute, since that would unfairly interfere as Alan has kindly offered to give a third opinion.

1787:

Either the exact dates ("YYYY-YYYY") or the beginning for ongoing roles ("since YYYY"). Looks like it's what we use everywhere else, I don't see why not here (it's removing some of the most important details).

3347:

Please remove the Greens party website link from the Official Website link. Senator Lidia Thorpe does not currently have an official website. We will share the new website with you once it is online. Thanks!

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journalist. It proves nothing. As I said earlier, if you can find anything from the Murdoch media saying something positive about Thorpe, I will change my position. Why do you want to include that content?

1556:

We need sourcing for all thia stuff, especially for a BLP. I wonder why someone wants to say in wikivoice that she is an Aboriginal polititican. Is it because she doesn't look like one in the way that

2755:

Your version says "Thorpe claimed the men provoked the altercation by approaching and racially abusing her, while the manager of the club claimed she approached the men and provoked the altercation".

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For notability I would say that she is best known for being a federal representative for the Greens and ethnicity and ancestry is not quite so important that it needs to be in the first sentence. --

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is quite clear in calling Dr Bruce McGuiness her "fellow founder", so I will use this to improve the inline sourcing of the article for Alma, as well as directly in this article for Lidia Thorpe.

1129:

I’ve just deleted the first sentence of the Early career section, which stated that she was managing director of Clan Corporation. Though this is stated in the Age citation, it cannot be true.

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pass. My edit was fair. Please do me the courtesy of pinging or summat like that in any response. And please leave anger out of it; your ill-tempered reversion edit summary refers. Thank you.

933:, we include the context of their nationality as Gunnai-Gunditjmara. Several editors have reverted this classification, and have edited the introduction of other Indigenous senators such as 1156:

Thanks for the fact checking. Guess we could say "Thorpe was a sole trader under the business 'Clan Corporation'." citing the ABN source, though maybe that's too much of a primary source.

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We're talking about something as basic as parentage, surely we assume it's accurate unless demonstrated otherwise. I don't think any source for her genealogy provided birth certificates.

2434:

You will have seen that the quoted words I reinstated today are but a fraction of those deleted by another left wing "I delete anything I consider to be right wing" editor. So…play fair?

3109:

The source for her mother is currently the Sydney Morning Herald, which has been openly partisan before, so I'm sure a certain section of readers don't like that either, but it's green.

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However, it's not very unusual to list only her mother if we don't know who the father is. In a BLP we have to have a high standard of evidence, and I don't think this is good enough.

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I shall set you the same challenge. Show us something positive any NewsCorp outlet has ever published about Thorpe, or anyone associated with The Greens. 06:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

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Poketama changed the above-mentioned sentence to a purely promotional phrasing, also claiming 'praise' for Thorpe without any change in the main body or any ref added whatsoever.

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lot happening so forgive me if I forgot anything. I will let you find a consensus together, I'm just here to give you an external opinion. I tried to break down the issue:

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politician, but ok I can change that word? Please see the '"Lidia Thorpe is an Australian senator" section above where the use of Aboriginal vs Australian is discussed.

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https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/greens-northcote-candidate-reveals-abusive-relationship-led-to-her-bankruptcy/news-story/0b53d6f348de3f5aaf783cf11c816d42

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Rather than wordsmith exact wordings, how about we start the final intro paragraph with something like "Thorpe campaigns on Indigenous and postcolonial issues"

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https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/leaked-email-reveals-greens-staffer-scared-and-in-shock-after-lidia-thorpe-s-truly-awful-outburst-20220905-p5bfdn.html

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I'm honestly a little confused by this comment. Many Indigenous Australians have a lot of European ancestry. That fact isn't notable or at all surprising. --

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I did not suggest that the actual manager who banned her and gave his explanation in a 7News interview about banning her, was "everyone who shouts loudly".

3593: 3553: 3444: 1820: 1756:, the word "controversy" is never used in the lead but the description of events is enough (and I think we'll all agree he probably is more controversial). 1315: 1082: 552: 200:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 1341:

There isn't any discussion here, it's pretty annoying to go sifting through edit summaries. If you have any problems with what I've written let me know.

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in 1971, and this has become unremarkable in the way that nobody jumps up and down about women or atheist or LGBT+ folk being elected. Again, I mention

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seems to be showing, as is your failure to understand metaphor. We are discussing this at very different levels, and from very different perspectives.

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After my revert, Poketama largely reverted back, adding that Thorpe is an 'activist'. Someone who holds (a fulltime) elected office is not an activist.

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There is a high standard of evidence for biographies of living persons, you cannot speculate, use tabloid sources, or present an unbalanced article.

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to label their nationality as Australian. I'd like views from other editors to gain consensus of which option to choose, as to prevent an edit war.

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is the standard. The source for her father's name, The Australian, is a green-lit source. There is nothing negative about the name Roy Illingworth.

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I recently added some citations and removed the citation needed tags that were no longer relevant. Can anyone work out why these were reverted?

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Good call with locking this page. As the referendum comes up this year this page will see more and more vandalism. Best to keep an eye on it.

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We mention Aboriginality in the dirst sentence in a few other bios of federal politicians. Notability is the criterion, and for someone like

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SBS is one of the Australian national broadcasters, its pretty reliable. You still havn't explained why you are wiping the entire edit.

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Firstly I want to acknowledge that I am not speaking from a First Nations perspective here and am eager to hear such perspectives. But

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This challenge is irrelevant to what's being discussed. We understand you don't like Newscorp sources. But you aren't the standard,

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automatically deemed to be totally and absolutely 100% reliable in every way. I really must do better. *hits himself over the head*

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evidently has some Chinese ancestry? We tend not to mention ethnicity as the primary defining characteristic of federal politicians.

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That is an idiotic, irresponsible and confrontational misrepresentation of what I wrote. You're not here to discuss this sensibly.

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I am having a break from Knowledge for the rest of the day so u can ping me and talk with me here but I won't respond till tomorrow

1806: 315:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 3238:

Because no non-Newscorp source interviewed him and published his name like Newscorp did. You'll have to ask them why they didn't.

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Her father's name isn't negative. His opinion of Thorpe may be negative, but we haven't mentioned that, we've only said his name.

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So why would the Murdoch media say anything positive about Thorpe? That they don’t does not make them unreliable. news.com.au is

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Then who were you talking about? The context where you said it was me talking about the manager's explanation for banning her.

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https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2022/08/02/senator-lidia-thorpe-makes-international-headlines-after-colonising-queen-oath

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Your position on Thorpe is so far from objective, you really shouldn't be trying to contribute to this article. Please read

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On matters such as this, Murdoch media is NOT an RS. I would like to bet they have never said anything positive about her.

2065: 2008: 1633:. Follow with her views on the Voice and Republicanism, and then highlight how those views have been criticised (by who?). 1222:

Clan Corporation remains a current business name of Lydia Thorpe, suggesting the business is still operating in some form.

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2. If Lidia's version gives specifics, why doesn't the manager's version give specifics? It should be balanced, remember.

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Quite. And then along comes an RS which more or less covers every point made in the removed text. See my latest edits.

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The article you added does not say that, and the above discussion did not lead to a consensus to remove 'Australian'.

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I don't care enough about this to go through the labour of defending my earlier deletion of the text, but by saying "

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Yes, but probably not labelled as a controversy. I think it's a grey area but we should make the difference between

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Knowledge, but it should not be deprecated completely. In any case there is no policy/community consensus to do so.

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A few hours later, I - having not seen IP 58's talk message - remove the line because I have the same criticisms.

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in the article) for now so we reach a consensus as this was not the main blocker here. It can be discussed later.

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Without a non-Murdoch source, it won't be seen as a strong claim by a lot of our readers. Is that what you want?

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when someone comes back to you to demolish your argument in a manner which you consider to be confrontational.

1578: 1332: 1327: 1309: 1088: 523: 392: 104: 20: 3070:, I don't think it matters what a significant portion of Australians think of it. Unless it changes colour in 2276: 2260: 2242: 129: 3473: 2950: 2659: 2490: 2472: 2393: 2365: 2321: 2307: 2290: 2178: 2161: 2143: 1943: 1698:

Poketama has consistently misrepresented issues on this talk page, including in her third opinion subsection.

1503: 74: 1963: 1572: 2547: 2427: 2114: 1801: 1361: 1175: 736:, The Age, 19 November 2017. That statement may be inaccurate, however, since the newspaper article reads, 244: 2971: 1198:

set up another business, called Clan Corporation, which she described as “not very active at the moment”.

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writes that they question the neutrality of the article because of how that lead line portrayed Thorpe.

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I don't think it's our business to worry what a section of readers think of a source beyond what's in

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https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/lidia-thorpe-set-to-quit-politics-when-her-term-expires/b7k070prj

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Poketama made other changes that only removed information. (Ex. "from 2017 to 2018" to "until 2018".)

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removes the citations from the lead because they're unnecessary, and I send thanks to them for this

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If you can source it add it... I had a look and couldn't find any evidence of her burning a flag.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

3491:? "A horizontal bi-colour of black and red with a yellow disc in the centre". Thanks in advance. 3448: 3275: 2669:

balanced, I wrote both her version and the manager's version, how much more balanced can you get.

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Can you comment on here instead of Edit Summaries? Edit summaries are not for discussion. See:

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If elected next month, the Greens candidate said she would wind up that business altogether. "

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article, referring to it for each statement it directly supports. And will also use it here.

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I found it sourced in The Australian, and The Australian is listed as green and reliable on

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It's a bit of a moot point without more explanation/background of what it the business was.

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it's a reasonable assumption that there's "no reference" to it because you made it up. --

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But the article describes them as claims. Your analysis may well be correct, but would be

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1. Where in the sources cited does it say that Lidia claimed the men racially abused her?

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Ivar, I really wouldn’t recommend it. The Herald Sun RS, used elsewhere in the article,

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Right, I now have an even better source, being the official government website for the

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Having received no response, I have now reinstated the references that were removed.

3325: 2256: 2221: 1959: 1915: 1900: 1884: 1858:: I change "attracted" to "been the subject of" cos I think attracted isn't neutral. 1749: 1662: 1568: 1386: 1319: 1301: 997: 969: 895: 853: 51: 3505: 3229: 3136: 3093: 3056: 3023: 2946: 2878: 2849: 2816: 2604: 2525: 2486: 2468: 2361: 2317: 2286: 2157: 2110: 2055: 2050:). That "connection" is so tenuous it's certainly not worth mentioning in a BLP. -- 1096: 1037: 611: 602: 446: 303: 161: 3187: 2924: 2411: 2383: 2356:

Murdoch media saying something positive about Thorpe, I will change my position.

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Her grandmother, Alma Thorpe, set up the state's first Aboriginal health service.

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in that way, but I'm not a reliable source, and BLP is uncompromising on that.

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She and many others burnt the Union Jack this month! Why is this not mentioned?

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about this sentence, ultimately resulting in the most neutral wording possible.

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The article on Alma Thorpe is supported by a single reference to the inaugural

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https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/09/28/greens-lidia-thorpe-bullying-allegations/

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In 1973 Thorpe helped establish the Victorian Aboriginal Health Service (VAHS)

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I tried to edit the lead in line with your analysis, lets see how that goes.

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It's believed her father was of Scottish descent and her surname is British.

3036:, and that is the standard we are using in this article to exclude sources. 3374: 3260:

Delete link to official website: Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2023

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addressed the nationality issue, but Poketama did not reply to his comment.

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Balance does not mean quoting everyone who shouts loudly about something.

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Sky News, News.com.au, Courier Mail, Herald Sun, are all the same company.

2481:. Have a read, then declare it can be trusted in this area of commentary. 2231:

Good that it was removed. *thinks* I wonder whether it could be true? 😉

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Poketama's description of events is incomplete and partially incorrect.

349: 1951: 1623: 1557: 934: 1954:: female and gay but we don't mention this in the opening sentence. -- 598: 2505:

Why is there no reference to her mental health issues and treatment?

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That's what she's known for, why isn't it mentioned in the article?

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Clan Corporation was only ever a trading name of Lidia Thorpe. See

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When can we name her father, what news sources are we waiting for?

513: 323:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the 287: 263: 585: 1139:

possible be true. Knowledge is not intended to carry untruths.

1872:: I tell I.P. 58 that the original phrasing has been excised. 1837:: I respond to IP 58 on the talk page and tell them I agree. 734:

Greens MP Lidia Thorpe's long road from Nowa Nowa to Northcote

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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially

2432:

I have just unfortunately read what you have written above. "

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have been managing director of it as it was never a company.

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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles

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Why does no non-NewsCorp source provide that information?

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refers. I’ve had similar exchanges with the same editor.

3182:. The words "most readers" don’t like it is an opinion, 3544:

Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles

772:– a state Government publication – which says, in part: 760:

reference for this statement. If Alma Thorpe was indeed

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Low-importance Indigenous peoples of Australia articles

1767:

Should we use 'Australian' or 'Aboriginal' in the lead?

1134:

https://abr.business.gov.au/AbnHistory/View/65868640208

2216:, also since removed, and has no other contributions. 1734:

Should the lead mention the swearing-in "controversy"?

160: 881:"2011 Victorian Aboriginal Honour Roll - Alma Thorpe" 3614:

WikiProject Indigenous peoples of Australia articles

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Start-Class Indigenous peoples of Australia articles

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Knowledge:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Sources

681:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 436: 293: 15: 2408:Is there anything in any of the bikie broadsheets? 1450:clearly oblivious to standard Knowledge practice. 1356:Your edit of two minutes ago was a good solution. 992:that's what he was noted for. Lovely man, BTW. -- 748:(by implication, sole) founder? The article for 3525: 461:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1774:). Right now it's all mixed and not very clear. 1337:I will try to write this as NPOV as possible. @ 1778:Should we mention 'businesswoman' in the lead? 1760:Should we use the term 'activist' in the lead? 469:. If you would like to participate, visit the 3324:that support the change you want to be made. 2726:6. For the reliability of Sky News see here: 174: 2479:Herald Sun#Australian Greens policy on drugs 2205:This is unsourced and must be removed under 1695:Poketama then engaged in naked edit-warring. 3594:Low-importance Australian politics articles 3554:Politics and government work group articles 3510:Need to add her relationship with a bikie. 3032:We don't need a better source according to 964:stated they do not identify as Australian. 873: 804:(which I suspect may have been rebadged as 572:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of Australia 230: 2710:2. Green Left newspaper is not the Greens. 2723:5. ABC is a reliable non-partisan source. 2132:is right, this warrants inclusion, IMO. 3599:WikiProject Australian politics articles 3589:Start-Class Australian politics articles 3477: 2715:Knowledge:Biographies of living persons 2038:Bit of a stretch: a flag was burned in 1060:2A00:23C6:CC00:2000:DCAB:6D70:B25C:9D80 921:"Lidia Thorpe is an Australian senator" 3624:Start-Class WikiProject Women articles 3526: 2212:It was added by the same IP who added 360:the politics and government work group 2201:get anything done for her own people. 1785:What dates should we use in the lead? 1191:said this on 26.9.2017 (my italics): 3178:Well done for standing your ground, 883:. State Government of Victoria. 2012 675:This article is within the scope of 309:This article is within the scope of 226: 184: 3629:All WikiProject Women-related pages 3534:Biography articles of living people 3432:Lidia Thorpe's birth month and year 2247:I suspect that it is true that she 2042:, and Thorpe attended a protest in 249:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 13: 3482:Thorpe with partially visible flag 903:Cite has empty unknown parameter: 861:Cite has empty unknown parameter: 610: 593:Need help improving this article? 584: 560: 536: 512: 348: 14: 3645: 3569:Low-importance Australia articles 2615:Recent additions on controversies 2066:How about that bullying incident? 1722:Third opinion by AlanTheScientist 979:Greens say about her nationality? 846:"Victorian Indigenous Honor Roll" 3579:Low-importance Victoria articles 3364: 3312: 3267: 2575:Controversies Section or Similar 2477:PS: Found this about NewsCorp - 1524:think is appropriate for a BLP. 779:Victorian Indigenous Honour Roll 732:, citing the newspaper article: 668: 650: 629: 439: 429: 415: 408: 380: 296: 286: 262: 231: 190:This article must adhere to the 45:Click here to start a new topic. 770:Victorian Indigenous Honor Roll 548:WikiProject Australian politics 499:This article has been rated as 479:Knowledge:WikiProject Australia 333:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography 3619:WikiProject Australia articles 3564:Start-Class Australia articles 3559:WikiProject Biography articles 3539:Start-Class biography articles 2060:00:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2032:15:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC) 2017:10:10, 26 September 2022 (UTC) 1993:15:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC) 1770:important and historical (see 1089:Australian Aboriginal identity 838: 777:...and quite a bit more. The 625:can be contacted via email to 482:Template:WikiProject Australia 336:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 3584:WikiProject Victoria articles 3574:Start-Class Victoria articles 2366:22:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC) 2350:19:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC) 2322:10:26, 11 February 2023 (UTC) 2308:09:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC) 2291:00:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC) 2277:19:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC) 1979:09:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC) 1964:09:26, 5 September 2022 (UTC) 1944:22:40, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1928:14:01, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1909:13:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1893:12:46, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1802:13:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1717:09:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1643:22:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1534:10:04, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1519:10:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1504:09:54, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1489:09:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1474:09:24, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1460:09:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1445:08:34, 3 September 2022 (UTC) 1421:19:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC) 689:and see a list of open tasks. 637:for non-editorial assistance. 599:National Library of Australia 569:This article is supported by 545:This article is supported by 521:This article is supported by 357:This article is supported by 193:biographies of living persons 42:Put new text under old text. 2713:3. 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Set the 1573:21:23, 28 August 2022 (UTC) 1407:12:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC) 1381:10:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC) 1366:09:24, 28 August 2022 (UTC) 1351:09:14, 28 August 2022 (UTC) 1333:Lead mention of controversy 1217:10:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC) 1180:12:09, 27 August 2021 (UTC) 1166:10:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC) 1151:08:20, 27 August 2021 (UTC) 1002:22:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC) 695:Knowledge:WikiProject Women 622:Wikimedia Australia chapter 205:must be removed immediately 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10: 3650: 3634:WikiProject Women articles 3489:Australian Aboriginal Flag 3474:Australian Aboriginal Flag 3248:03:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC) 3234:10:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC) 3220:09:53, 28 April 2023 (UTC) 3198:06:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC) 3155:04:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC) 3141:23:01, 23 April 2023 (UTC) 3126:11:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC) 3098:11:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC) 3084:10:51, 23 April 2023 (UTC) 3061:21:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 3046:08:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 3028:08:09, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 3009:07:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2991:07:07, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2972:11:03, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2951:23:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC) 2935:06:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC) 2897:08:27, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2883:08:11, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2869:07:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2854:05:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2836:03:18, 22 April 2023 (UTC) 2821:23:24, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2787:11:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2739:10:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2699:09:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2660:06:31, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2644:06:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC) 2609:10:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC) 2590:04:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC) 2570:10:42, 13 April 2023 (UTC) 2548:12:16, 13 April 2023 (UTC) 2530:04:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC) 2515:04:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC) 1648:Viewpoint by (Leontrooper) 1328:20:54, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 1310:18:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 1296:12:13, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 1120:03:51, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 1101:02:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC) 1083:02:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC) 1068:01:08, 16 April 2021 (UTC) 1053:21:43, 30 March 2021 (UTC) 701:WikiProject Women articles 698:Template:WikiProject Women 505:project's importance scale 3468:01:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC) 3453:16:30, 10 July 2023 (UTC) 3426:12:13, 21 June 2023 (UTC) 3411:13:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC) 2536:reliable secondary source 2491:09:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2473:08:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2446:08:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2428:08:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2394:08:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 1615:Viewpoint by (Catiline52) 663: 630: 618: 603:State Library of Victoria 592: 568: 544: 520: 498: 424: 356: 281: 257: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3445:The expert on everything 3391:01:11, 18 May 2023 (UTC) 3358:00:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC) 3337:16:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC) 3307:12:22, 17 May 2023 (UTC) 2520:Source? And relevance? 2410:" in your edit summary, 1918:! Definitely helpful :) 929:. As such, according to 724:The article states that 467:Australia-related topics 3343:Remove official website 1877:Special:Diff/1102011971 1870:Special:Diff/1101991084 1863:Special:Diff/1101975510 1856:Special:Diff/1101971983 1849:Special:Diff/1101970978 1842:Special:Diff/1101970306 1835:Special:Diff/1101964100 1828:Special:Diff/1101963644 1817:Special:Diff/1101911053 1807:Comment by Stephanie921 1604:Viewpoint by (Poketama) 455:is within the scope of 275:Politics and Government 3483: 1881:User:Laterthanyouthink 1087:Please have a look at 726:Thorpe's grandmother, 615: 589: 565: 541: 517: 353: 239:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 3481: 2214:this similar material 1281:Neutrality of article 614: 588: 564: 540: 516: 458:WikiProject Australia 352: 312:WikiProject Biography 100:Neutral point of view 2501:Mental Health Issues 2249:in general is viewed 1738:controversial events 1318:it has been excised 744:of the founders, or 524:WikiProject Victoria 105:No original research 3377:: there's many but 3074:, it's good to go. 1596:) wants to offer a 3484: 3373:. 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