1522:{{Officeholder table | image = Karl Renner 1905.jpg | military_rank = Dr. | officeholder = ] | officeholder_sort = Renner, Karl | officeholder_note = {{small|Possible ref position}} | born_year = 1870 | died_year = 1950 | term_start = 30 October 1918 | term_end = 7 July 1920 | timeinoffice = {{ayd|1918|10|30|1920|07|07}} | party = Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria | election = ] | alt_officeholder = ] | cabinet = {{Officeholder table cabinet | cabinet = Renner I | party = Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria | party2 = Christian Social Party (Austria) | party3 = Greater German People's Party }} | ref = {{small|Possible ref position}} }}
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1813:. It is also not sortable and images have been increased to the size similar to that of the current table. And while I strongly disagree with the fact that splitting tenure into two columns is superfluously, I have also recollected Tenure, while still keeping time in office. Like I said before, it will still have Miklas 10 times, but I would qualify that as an acceptable cost compared to the rest of the table. Best
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You are right that is a valid point, but I think that is a small price to pay for, what I believe to be, an overall better table, which can be unsortable. This table is modular and easy to edit. It also shows a clear distinction between
Governments and coalition parties, something that you table does
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Academic titles have a high societal status in
Austria, unlike in the U.S. or in France, where you apparently come from. At their current location they're minimal and not hurting anyone, and MOS doesn't discourage their usage outside of biography articles. So I don't see a reason why to remove them.
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You are right it isn't, but I just found funny if not hypocritical to argue for two different types of presenting the data, when you made both of tables. Is it really that redundant, when you yourself can make tables presenting data the same way? And seeing as the table is read from left to right,
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An editor named
Colonestarrice is edit-warring to reintroduce titles such as "Mag." (which refers to someone with a mere master's degree) and "Dipl.-Kfm." (which isn't even an English-language term) in front of the names of the various chancellors. While
1547:{{efn|Karl Renner initially served as State Chancellor of the ] until 21 October 1919, when the country renamed itself to the ]. The office of the Chancellor and Renner's term however, remained fully untouched during the renaming process.}}<ref: -->
1773:), only to point out that this is an established, standard and pretty good table. I placed the "{{small|Possible ref position}}" at the two different positions to illustrate possible places for references, seeing as you didn't like the column.
1788:", as that does indeed help the reader to better locate them and differentiate them from the notes currently placed next to them. But like I also attempted to explain above the refs could be placed below the name, like with the current table.
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819:, as it answers a number of typical questions and responses to removals such as this. If after reading these, you still feel there is grounds for restoration of most or all of the media that have been removed, please post to
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But this is the
English-language Knowledge, so any "high societal status in Austria" doesn't really matter. I don't know what France has got to do with this discussion. Both my parents "come from" what used to be
1552:{{citeweb|url=http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=wrz&datum=19181101&seite=3&zoom=28|website=anno.onb.ac.at|title=Staatsregierung Renner I|lang=de|access-date=2019-03-08}}</ref: -->
1018:, as it is easier to edit and navigate, shows time in office, easily customizeable, standard with a lot of other Wiki pages making migration of data easy, is sortable and is an overall cleaner version.
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870:; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
803:#1 and #8. In most cases non-free media needs to be tied directly to the prose of the article, most preferably with inline citations tying the discussion to secondary sources regarding the image per
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I already elucidated why I oppose your changes with the "points" you quoted above. Your "replies" don't counter them, they're just representative of your own personal opinion on the subject.
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I have taken the liberty to illustrate the two different types of table, to show how much easier it is to edit and locate things in the proposed table compared to the current one.
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is strictly speaking about biographies, I think the spirit of the manual of style is quite clear, and that we don't normally add such titles in front of names in lists. --
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to belittle my version as superfluous and extraneous by replacing all references with "{{small|Possible ref position}}", is not aiding in establishing consensus.
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Achieving a consensus is kinda difficult when one person does not participate in the discussion, trying to get to a compromise. Right now I was just following
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I did participate in the discussion, I did present my arguments, and so did you; but there ultimately was no agreement, no compromise and therefore
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Blanket restoration of the non-free images that have been removed can and most likely will be reverted, with subsequent reporting action possible.
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I mean, the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column, but it does make it easier to find and edit them. Also not enough to be a
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If some restoration is desired, careful consideration of exactly what non-free media to use must be made, paying special attention to
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Unfortunately not something that can be changed in this type of table, but shouldn't be enough to claim that the whole table is bad.
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Sebastian Kurz was ousted in a vote of no confidence today yet every time I update the article somebody keeps undoing my changes.
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The presence of a fair use rationale for this article on an image description page does not make it acceptable for a given use.
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Nothing has been fixed, your changes have been challenged, thus please establish consensus before reinstating them – per
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Because he was the appointer for each one, and with sort-able tables this happens either way. Also not enough to be a
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There are now, two positions highlighted for possible reference placements, since you don't like the ref column.
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does it, why should this one be any different? In any case that shouldn't be enough to claim something is a
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There has been clear consensus not to use succession numbers on articles related to
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Great, but you replying doesn't make it consensus and me not replying doesn't make it consensus either.
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This table is 100% easier to navigate and edit, I don't understand why you are so much against it.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Like I said before, it is common practice to have separate columns for each, your own table on
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All you previous points have been addressed and fixed where needed, why did you undo it again?
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The numbers have now been removed, by the way you should probably do something about the
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In effort to avoid further misunderstandings, I have now moved the refs around to show "
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Do you have anything to add to this table, so we can reach a meaningful compromise?
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then you may need to upload it to
Knowledge (Commons does not allow fair use)
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Even pages such as Vice-Chancellor of
Austria and President of Austria do it
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column, if you can have all information clear and simple in a single column?
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guideline. If you wish to dispute this removal, it may be helpful to read
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without making it clear. I in no way attempted to belittle your table (
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10 times instead of 1 time, although getting the same result both ways?
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I mean, the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column
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makes sense to present the data that way rather than up–down.
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the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column
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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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on the page then, since the Chancellors are numbered there.
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That was not my argument, sorry if you read it that way (
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Featured lists that have appeared on the main page once
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Term have now been semi collected with the overarching
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Sebastian Kurz was ousted in a vote of no confidence
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1555:7 July 1920 | ] | <span style="color:red;": -->
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1716:It does make it easier to find and edit them.
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1263:Why would you make a completely redundant
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920:List of Austrian Chancellors by longevity
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1197:. Thank you.
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1252:column in a
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1233:Your points:
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1191:WP:CONSENSUS
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1081:Renner, Karl
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275:Not promoted
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19:This is the
1631:Left office
1545:<br: -->
1294:My replies:
1258:left office
1254:took office
1103:7 July 1920
1092:(1870–1950)
1087:Karl Renner
1044:Left office
1041:Took office
868:Don't panic
783:requirement
148:free images
31:not a forum
1902:Categories
1810:table here
1739:Sincerely
1300:Statistics
1038:Chancellor
918:articles:
817:WP:OVERUSE
813:WP:NFLISTS
601:discussion
205:identified
1879:"Austria"
1815:Skjoldbro
1664:Skjoldbro
1639:Skjoldbro
1609:Skjoldbro
1588:Skjoldbro
1489:Skjoldbro
1423:Skjoldbro
1352:Skjoldbro
1165:Skjoldbro
1056:Appointer
1035:Portrait
1020:Skjoldbro
718:Biography
658:Biography
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1635:Duration
1513:Proposed
1053:Election
929:GenQuest
876:non-free
513:Politics
504:politics
460:Politics
326:FL-class
294:Promoted
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1883:Tataral
1848:Tataral
1533:Current
1267:column?
1059:Cabinet
801:WP:NFCC
633:on the
540:on the
435:on the
408:Austria
399:Austria
355:Austria
253:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1771:WP:AGF
1633:, and
1250:tenure
1187:WP:BRD
332:scale.
256:Result
126:Google
1782:WP:EQ
1132:SDAPÖ
1112:SDAPÖ
1050:Party
922:into
606:Lists
565:Lists
210:lists
198:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1887:talk
1868:talk
1852:talk
1819:talk
1786:refs
1745:talk
1718:" –
1668:talk
1643:talk
1629:and
1627:Took
1625:for
1623:Term
1613:talk
1592:talk
1583:here
1493:talk
1452:talk
1427:talk
1386:talk
1356:talk
1309:and
1243:here
1203:talk
1193:and
1169:talk
1140:GDVP
1117:1919
1063:Ref.
1024:talk
994:talk
898:talk
707:and
250:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1265:ref
1083:Dr.
988:. —
825:ΔT
823:.
625:Low
532:Low
427:Low
176:TWL
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