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Talk:List of chancellors of Austria

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1522:{{Officeholder table | image = Karl Renner 1905.jpg | military_rank = Dr. | officeholder = ] | officeholder_sort = Renner, Karl | officeholder_note = {{small|Possible ref position}} | born_year = 1870 | died_year = 1950 | term_start = 30 October 1918 | term_end = 7 July 1920 | timeinoffice = {{ayd|1918|10|30|1920|07|07}} | party = Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria | election = ] | alt_officeholder = ] | cabinet = {{Officeholder table cabinet | cabinet = Renner I | party = Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria | party2 = Christian Social Party (Austria) | party3 = Greater German People's Party }} | ref = {{small|Possible ref position}} }} 190: 475: 454: 318: 738: 485: 370: 349: 775: 227: 1073: 580: 559: 676: 652: 380: 844: 1813:. It is also not sortable and images have been increased to the size similar to that of the current table. And while I strongly disagree with the fact that splitting tenure into two columns is superfluously, I have also recollected Tenure, while still keeping time in office. Like I said before, it will still have Miklas 10 times, but I would qualify that as an acceptable cost compared to the rest of the table. Best 686: 1791:
You are right that is a valid point, but I think that is a small price to pay for, what I believe to be, an overall better table, which can be unsortable. This table is modular and easy to edit. It also shows a clear distinction between Governments and coalition parties, something that you table does
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Academic titles have a high societal status in Austria, unlike in the U.S. or in France, where you apparently come from. At their current location they're minimal and not hurting anyone, and MOS doesn't discourage their usage outside of biography articles. So I don't see a reason why to remove them.
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You are right it isn't, but I just found funny if not hypocritical to argue for two different types of presenting the data, when you made both of tables. Is it really that redundant, when you yourself can make tables presenting data the same way? And seeing as the table is read from left to right,
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An editor named Colonestarrice is edit-warring to reintroduce titles such as "Mag." (which refers to someone with a mere master's degree) and "Dipl.-Kfm." (which isn't even an English-language term) in front of the names of the various chancellors. While
1547:{{efn|Karl Renner initially served as State Chancellor of the ] until 21 October 1919, when the country renamed itself to the ]. The office of the Chancellor and Renner's term however, remained fully untouched during the renaming process.}}<ref: --> 1773:), only to point out that this is an established, standard and pretty good table. I placed the "{{small|Possible ref position}}" at the two different positions to illustrate possible places for references, seeing as you didn't like the column. 1788:", as that does indeed help the reader to better locate them and differentiate them from the notes currently placed next to them. But like I also attempted to explain above the refs could be placed below the name, like with the current table. 153: 819:, as it answers a number of typical questions and responses to removals such as this. If after reading these, you still feel there is grounds for restoration of most or all of the media that have been removed, please post to 1876:
But this is the English-language Knowledge, so any "high societal status in Austria" doesn't really matter. I don't know what France has got to do with this discussion. Both my parents "come from" what used to be
1552:{{citeweb|url=http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=wrz&datum=19181101&seite=3&zoom=28|website=anno.onb.ac.at|title=Staatsregierung Renner I|lang=de|access-date=2019-03-08}}</ref: --> 1018:, as it is easier to edit and navigate, shows time in office, easily customizeable, standard with a lot of other Wiki pages making migration of data easy, is sortable and is an overall cleaner version. 1550:{{citeweb|url=https://austria-forum.org/af/AustriaWiki/Bundesregierung_%28%C3%96sterreich%29|website=austria-forum.org|title=Bundesregierung (Österreich)|lang=de|access-date=2019-03-08}}</ref: --> 870:; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. 803:#1 and #8. In most cases non-free media needs to be tied directly to the prose of the article, most preferably with inline citations tying the discussion to secondary sources regarding the image per 288: 269: 204: 939: 1446:
I already elucidated why I oppose your changes with the "points" you quoted above. Your "replies" don't counter them, they're just representative of your own personal opinion on the subject.
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I have taken the liberty to illustrate the two different types of table, to show how much easier it is to edit and locate things in the proposed table compared to the current one.
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is strictly speaking about biographies, I think the spirit of the manual of style is quite clear, and that we don't normally add such titles in front of names in lists. --
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to belittle my version as superfluous and extraneous by replacing all references with "{{small|Possible ref position}}", is not aiding in establishing consensus.
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Achieving a consensus is kinda difficult when one person does not participate in the discussion, trying to get to a compromise. Right now I was just following
834: 44: 1855: 1977: 1822: 1595: 1496: 1430: 1389: 1359: 1206: 1836: 1890: 1871: 1690: 1126: 1881:, I speak German and am relatively familiar with that part of Europe. It's a long-established practice to avoid such titles in lists like this one. -- 541: 1671: 1646: 1616: 1748: 1683:
I did participate in the discussion, I did present my arguments, and so did you; but there ultimately was no agreement, no compromise and therefore
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Blanket restoration of the non-free images that have been removed can and most likely will be reverted, with subsequent reporting action possible.
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I mean, the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column, but it does make it easier to find and edit them. Also not enough to be a
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If some restoration is desired, careful consideration of exactly what non-free media to use must be made, paying special attention to
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Unfortunately not something that can be changed in this type of table, but shouldn't be enough to claim that the whole table is bad.
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Sebastian Kurz was ousted in a vote of no confidence today yet every time I update the article somebody keeps undoing my changes.
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The presence of a fair use rationale for this article on an image description page does not make it acceptable for a given use.
782: 1952: 1586:, this new table has the added value of having the governments for each Chancellor visible along with the coalition parties. 624: 402: 85: 1962: 1002: 708: 125: 1957: 1932: 1242: 1185:
Nothing has been fixed, your changes have been challenged, thus please establish consensus before reinstating them – per
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Because he was the appointer for each one, and with sort-able tables this happens either way. Also not enough to be a
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There are now, two positions highlighted for possible reference placements, since you don't like the ref column.
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This article has been identified as containing an excessive quantity of non-free content. Per the Foundation's
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does it, why should this one be any different? In any case that shouldn't be enough to claim something is a
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There has been clear consensus not to use succession numbers on articles related to Austrian politics. See
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Great, but you replying doesn't make it consensus and me not replying doesn't make it consensus either.
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This table is 100% easier to navigate and edit, I don't understand why you are so much against it.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Like I said before, it is common practice to have separate columns for each, your own table on
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All you previous points have been addressed and fixed where needed, why did you undo it again?
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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:
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The numbers have now been removed, by the way you should probably do something about the
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In effort to avoid further misunderstandings, I have now moved the refs around to show "
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Do you have anything to add to this table, so we can reach a meaningful compromise?
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then you may need to upload it to Knowledge (Commons does not allow fair use)
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Even pages such as Vice-Chancellor of Austria and President of Austria do it
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column, if you can have all information clear and simple in a single column?
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guideline. If you wish to dispute this removal, it may be helpful to read
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without making it clear. I in no way attempted to belittle your table (
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10 times instead of 1 time, although getting the same result both ways?
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I mean, the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column
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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion
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makes sense to present the data that way rather than up–down.
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the refs don't necessarily "need" to be in a separate column
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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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on the page then, since the Chancellors are numbered there.
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That was not my argument, sorry if you read it that way (
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Featured lists that have appeared on the main page once
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Term have now been semi collected with the overarching
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please
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FL-Class biography (politics and government) articles
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Sebastian Kurz was ousted in a vote of no confidence
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Knowledge:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus"
881:If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no 1908:Featured lists that have appeared on the main page 1765:, but maybe that is my fault for assuming to have 1733:And with sort-able tables this happens either way. 1555:7 July 1920 | ] | <span style="color:red;": --> 232:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as 1899: 1580:I have now produced a full version of the table 811:If this is a list type article, please read the 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 984:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 835:File:Johann Schober.png Nominated for Deletion 1716:It does make it easier to find and edit them. 174: 1239:User:Kramler/Kurz is not the 25th chancellor 785:to keep non-free media use minimal, and per 1978:Politics and government work group articles 591:, an attempt to structure and organize all 1421:So why don't you want this table instead? 1263:Why would you make a completely redundant 926:; dated December 2015. Discussion here. 1729:Because he was the appointer for each one 920:List of Austrian Chancellors by longevity 595:. If you wish to help, please visit the 1900: 1705:" – because it's redundant either way. 1529: 1509: 1248:Why would you superfluously split the 890:This notification is provided by a Bot 770:Use of non-free images on this article 748:the politics and government work group 1792:not do, might want to look at that – 1731:" – in the current table he is too. " 1703:Why should this one be any different? 1305:Why wouldn't you? Even pages such as 853:, has been nominated for deletion at 315: 1559:] <span style="color:black;": --> 1062: 697:This article is within the scope of 585:This article is within the scope of 496:This article is within the scope of 391:This article is within the scope of 311: 1563:] <span style="color:blue;": --> 1043: 1040: 885:then it cannot be uploaded or used. 787:Knowledge:Non-free content criteria 334:It is of interest to the following 216:. If you can update or improve it, 23:for discussing improvements to the 13: 773: 736: 14: 1994: 1014:I propose to change the table to 1938:Low-importance politics articles 1471:Numbers have since been removed 1071: 842: 684: 674: 650: 578: 557: 483: 473: 452: 378: 368: 347: 316: 225: 188: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 1923:Low-importance Austria articles 849:An image used in this article, 821:Knowledge talk:Non-free content 721:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography 629:This article has been rated as 536:This article has been rated as 431:This article has been rated as 1983:WikiProject Biography articles 924:List of Chancellors of Austria 859:Deletion requests January 2012 724:Template:WikiProject Biography 516:Knowledge:WikiProject Politics 196:List of chancellors of Austria 25:List of chancellors of Austria 1: 1943:WikiProject Politics articles 1928:All WikiProject Austria pages 1763:participate in the discussion 1506: 745:This article is supported by 519:Template:WikiProject Politics 510:and see a list of open tasks. 411:Knowledge:WikiProject Austria 42:Put new text under old text. 1953:Low-importance List articles 1567:] | rowspan=1 | ]<hr: --> 1553:| 30 October 1918<br: --> 1003:Proposal to change the table 964:Karl Renner (table crop).jpg 959:Fred Sinowatz (portrait).jpg 949:Bruno Kreisky (portrait).jpg 935:15:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC) 902:17:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC) 709:contribute to the discussion 414:Template:WikiProject Austria 7: 1963:FL-Class biography articles 857:in the following category: 609:Knowledge:WikiProject Lists 50:New to Knowledge? 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