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Commandments, as well as the entire text of the "Five Books of Moses" and their explanation, are of Divine Origin, is known as "Torah min HaShamayim;" literally, the Torah comes from Heaven. It is one of the
Fundamental Beliefs of Judaism.. And since the Torah came before whatever muslims made up... Therefore it is your copycat version that has been erroneously altered... Or do you believe in Time Travel? Therefore not only are your statements false, the whole wiki article is false. INCLUDING, but not limited to the poorly written bit where you allege a fallacy about the New version of the Torah (which is supposedly the erroneous version since Jews altered it). Um, again Torah first. this is called history. No Time Travel or time machine around aside from the editors/authors of the wiki and any book that refers to whatever copycat "tawrat" book you are talking about as the true (Torah)! If you are thinking about any alterations to any books, Look to you know Religons that are newer than Judaism! The Torah isn't a wiki, you can't change the text and the dates and then change history!
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trt (plural Torah) in pronunciation. So it's regardless whether the Proto-Semitic root wxrxw is there for pronunciation and spelling... For
Instance... In Hebrew, Hanukkah is only written one way (I could say, said one way, but then that would ignore versions and different means of, like Hanukkiah) in Hebrew, but can be written any way in English (although has 6 common ways of writing it, and one Style Guide approved version for media but I digress. The point is that regardless whether Muslims use the literal Proto-Semitic version of the Torah, makes no difference. As They cannot change the name of a Jewish book. It doesn't work that way. So The argument Giorgioz is trying to make is irrelevant.
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873:. However, and I think we've reached the source of our disagreement here, what Muslims and some non-Muslims consider to be the Law (given to Moses) are different. It is standard Islamic belief that the Torah is regarded as a corruption of the Tawrat. This is one of the reasons I created this article, to clear up these misconceptions about what Muslims believe regarding the Tawrat (and Torah). Of course, non-Islamic views on what the Tawrat is can be included in a section in this article. In a nutshell:
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865:. I appreciate your points regarding common and modern uses of the words Tawrat and Torah. We may have a difference of philosophy, but in an encyclopedia, different viewpoints on any given topic have to be made. Hence, I think some sort of compromise can be made. Let me explain thus. Firstly, Tawrat (according to the Qur'an) is the original revelation given to Moses. I want this point to be made absolutely clear at the start of the article, i.e.
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907:" because this is obviously true by looking at English translations. Personally, I think this is a dreadful translation, but it did happen. And removing "Most English speaking Muslims simply refer to it as "the Torah" while some reserve "Torah" to refer to the modern version, the Tawrat after its alleged corruption by Jews" also because I think this is simply a fact of usage. I agree that
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I see that mpatel has again removed the reference to different meanings of Tawrat and Torah after I gave a lengthy discussion (see above) and without him offering an explanation as to why. If he does not give an explanation, then the consensus is that "Tawrat" has both meanings and this point should
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To Guide does not mean "Law"! Anymore than it means Lead! (for that matter, Halachic or
Halacha is the word used to refer to Law, so if it was to be called "Law" Then there are more apt words for this. Secondly, Ancient Hebrew is written without vowel placement... literally the equivalent would be
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the letter "ة" is pronounced as "h" when you make stop at the word, and as "t = ت" when you you join the word to the one following it i.e without making stop. As an example for the first case, when the word is at the end of statement as in ana aqra'ut TWRAH "i am reading the torah". An example for
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Why did you think my revision was misleading? If it's in regard to the semantics of Tawrat/Torah, what I added was my experience in reading and talking with others (I'm an
English speaker only). But I did make sure to include the other side. I really want to come to an agreement on this article.
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First off, thanks for editing the article, not just reverting it. It seems we have the same philosophy: usage not idealism. I have no problem with anything you added and of course I'm clear that
Muslims believe the Tawrat changed. I only disagree that you removed "Many translations of the Qur'an
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to refer to their modern text. In Surah 3.93, Shakir translates "Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful." The Qur'an is teaching
Muslims to tell Jews to bring the Tawrat/Taurat which they could not do if the Tawrat did not reffer to the modern (that is, modern at Muhammad's
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differently because it would make discussions clearer. However, the I think the fact is that modern
English speaking Muslims (and non-Muslims, for that matter) do not, nor does the Qur'an or hadith make a distinction. My philosophy is that usage, not idealism, defines words. Perhaps we have a
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UM WTF? Jews DO NOT EVER AND WILL NEVER USE THE WORD tawrat. The only word we use is Torah (you may be referring to Torot, which is PLURAL of Torah), literally, the "Teaching;" the "Constitution" of
Judaism and the Jewish People, given to them by G-d at Mt. Sinai. This belief, that the Ten
869:. The bolded statement is not an opinion, it's a fact. The Jews (and possibly others) call what they believe was the original revelation given to Moses the Torah. A lot of Islamic (and other) websites simply say that Tawrat is only a translation of Torah. If I remember correctly, '
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The word "Tawrat" is an incorrect
Transliteration for the Arabic word "توراة". This word may be correct Transliteration for "تورات" which can't be found in any Arabic dictionary. To explain this to non-Arabic speaking people, i should show the difference between "ة" & "ت"
987:, the earliest form of the word Torah, in Ancient Hebrew, is *tawrawat, from a Proto-Semitic root *w-r-w meaning "to guide", hence the meaning "Law". That is, the cognate Arabic and Qur'anic word is closer to the original form in Proto-Semitic, and certainly not a loanword.
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In my experience, in
English, Muslims use Torah and Tawrat virtually interchangeable. I have heard Muslims make a distinction like you do, Mpatel, but rarely and few Muslims follow this usage. Keep in mind, English only. As far as my understanding,
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not be omitted. Since the reader may find the information interesting and probably deserves more than a sentence in the intro, I've given it a headline section. Note that I made the intro ambiguous, not implying one meaning of the other. Since the
948:. Some English translations of the Qur'an and New Testament use "Law" because it's decent as a direct translation. Rather than discuss translation of Hebrew on an Islamic page, I ommitted rather than explaining. I know, this is picky.
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I also want to add that Jesus was given the Tawrat and that Muhammad was written of in the Tawrat (Surah 7.157). I'm relatively new with wikis and have never had a discussion, so please excuse my inexperience.--
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Shakir translates is the same as in synagogues.) Abu Dawud's hadith Book 38 Number 4434 says the same. (BTW, you don't have to accept Dawud as authoritative in Islam as some Muslims don't, only that the word
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The whole paragraph is a ramble now, and needs drastic improvement. I'm sure there are some good thoughts there, but I doubt they belong in the introduction and it is not quite clear what they are.
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The first paragraph needs some serious attention re: punctuation. Also, if you quote the Quran, show where it is quoted from; don't present it as fact, esp. in an extremely formal English.
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majority of Muslim scholars and laymen use Tawrat and Torah interchangeably, I think this is more than fair to mpatel's opinion. Hopefully this will resolve the debate.
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because they make the page totally incoherent and hard to understand. There's also a great deal of POV and OR information contained therein. —
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Muslims believe that the present day Torah is a corruption of the true Law (revelation) given to Moses, which they call the Tawrat.
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274:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Removed Old Testament reference in first paragraph because Torah (in Hebrew) never refers to the Tanach. See
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
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Some non-Muslims (in particular, Jews) believe that the Torah is the true Law (revelation)given to Moses.
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at the start, as many of the Islam articles (incorrectly) use 'Tawrah' synonymously with 'Torah'. ---
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the letter "ة", unlike "ت" and the other Arabic letters, can't be found except at the end of words.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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i added a part about islam's view about the rabbianic jewish traditions for the oral law torah.
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Perhaps the article should reflect these points. Hope this clears up any misconceptions. ---
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that's why I love wikipedia. Therefore I think both viewpoints should be included.--
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966:. After mulling over it a few times, I agree that the current version is better.
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the arabic Transliteration of "Twrat", as a single word, is "تورات" not "توراة"
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If someone knows how to insert Arabic characters, that would help. I do not.
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700:— Preceding
697:
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602:Christianity
593:Christianity
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543:Christianity
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469:Bible portal
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259:Islam portal
209:WikiProjects
171:
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19:This is the
1108:Conclusion:
1050:I reverted
1024:Discuss at
1000:—Preceding
837:—Preceding
148:free images
31:not a forum
1179:Categories
1026:Talk:Torah
903:render as
1157:Indonesia
964:JBJ830726
954:JBJ830726
913:JBJ830726
863:JBJ830726
823:JBJ830726
741:JBJ830726
735:And . . .
727:JBJ830726
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1149:RMCD bot
1071:oral law
1002:unsigned
989:Giorgioz
839:unsigned
702:unsigned
672:Untitled
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1061:Annyong
629:on the
518:on the
413:on the
386:Judaism
377:Judaism
333:Judaism
308:on the
199:C-class
154:WP refs
142:scholar
971:(talk)
896:(talk)
893:Mpatel
818:Tawrat
807:Tawrat
802:Tawrat
797:Tawrat
793:Tawrat
770:Tawrat
754:Tawrat
685:(talk)
682:Mpatel
205:scale.
126:Google
1058:Hello
946:Torah
940:Torah
814:Torah
774:Torah
766:Torah
758:Torah
678:Torah
548:Texts
491:Bible
482:Bible
438:Bible
281:Islam
272:Islam
228:Islam
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1167:talk
1130:talk
1081:talk
1010:talk
929:vast
847:talk
816:and
710:talk
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1037:gle
1034:rin
1031:Sef
962:Hi
905:Law
861:Hi
756:vs
621:Mid
510:Mid
405:Mid
300:Mid
176:TWL
1181::
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968:MP
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