652:, which in part converted some explicit thin spaces in mathematical typography to ordinary spaces, are not helpful. If another editor explicitly chose a size of space to stick into a formula, you should assume they did so for an intentional reason and not automatically second-guess that decision. Often regular spaces leave formulas written using plain wikimarkup (e.g. in
854:, actually is breaking the citation template, causing the string "&thinsp," to show up in the article. Even if it was working properly, a non-ASCII space would be polluting downstream data for citation consumers. (For example, journal web sites that list all Knowledge references to papers on that paper's page.)
300:") wouldn't make sense. In that case, we probably don't need a link anyway, and fixing the typography is all that's needed. Sometimes having the name instead of the formula would make the article easier to read, so switching it out and making it a link would be an improvement; you'd have to use your judgement.
1067:. The first two digits are red, the third and fourth are green and the lasts two are blue. To keep the shades pale, I've been keeping between F0 and FF, with F8 halfway between. I don't worry about keeping the precise hue from the flag, because it's going to be much paler regardless. Here's a cheat sheet:
752:
since those are generally a sign that someone is intentionally using a thin space in wikitext. (And it's nice that templates can have documentation to explain what they mean and why they are being used.) HTML entities are often automatically imported from other environments rather than being inserted
690:
with those removed renders correctly for me. Sometimes different operating systems and web browsers and fonts render characters like these in an overlapping way; I would consider that a bug in that stack which should be reported and fixed. But once that happens, we don't need to keep these characters
589:
Hebrew is written right to left, unlike
English which is written left to right. So the character following a Hebrew letter like Aleph will appear to its left rather than to its right. This causes a problem when the Hebrew letter is intended to be part of an English text rather than a Hebrew text. You
310:
Poking at the "Possible" list just now, I had a bit of trouble figuring out which articles the spell checker was complaining about. I put a note at the top explaining how to use the "insource://" trick, which should be sufficient until I can get those included in the report automatically (or we empty
1052:
If there's already a "style" property, background gets added to the quoted value, separated from the other part with a ";". I started out by setting the background color on the row with the country name. Depending on how complicated the country is, sometimes the background color also needs to be set
713:
The version of Tensor with the full-sized spaces is definitely worse than the version with thin spaces, and it is clear why the thin spaces were originally chosen. If you feel like it you are welcome to rewrite the whole page using LaTeX instead, which looks better and has simpler markup, but please
67:
triplication, ending with clearing out the last of these to make it a redirect. It has all been undone and I don't have the inclination to pursue it to the bitter end, I just don't care that much. I can't see why the RTM that we have discussed would have any different result. If you want to go ahead
16:
Feel free to leave a note at the bottom of this page in the usual manner; I assume you'll be subscribed to the thread to get notified about replies. Just to keep things tidy, I generally only keep stuff on this page if it requires further action from me or you haven't read my reply yet, so check the
788:
If you are writing a new page, feel free to use either one. But please don't do automatic replacements of one for another (not sure if you were planning on it). At best it creates pointless watchlist spam. From what I can tell this kind change does not have (and should not have) the backing of any
756:
A high difficulty of editing can result from an accumulation of small difficulties, which new editors sometimes must confront all at once to make useful contributions. Much of the point of wikitext is to spare editors from having to learn HTML, though it's reasonable to expect deeply involved math
1277:
Oh, I hadn't noticed the 7-day requirement for C1. These categories were created by a banned user and could be trivially re-created if the chapter or verse articles were ever to get re-created. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason to leave them sitting around empty for 7 days, and that
423:
That's right, for spell-checking purposes moss ignores capitalized words made of only letters, on the assumption they are proper nouns. (These problem formulas are actually pulled from a list of ignored but suspicious words.) Even when I stop doing that (because I want to verify the spellings of
1056:
In terms of picking the colors, I tried to stick with the most prominent color in the flag (though often there's a three-way tie). I looked several countries ahead to make sure that the same color isn't used within 2-4 rows. I also tried to use white every few rows for the benefit of completely
128:
doesn't say anything about not mixing the two, so my thinking was that the mixed style was at least MOS-compliant, and we could go back and convert the rest of the markup later. I was hoping some other editors skilled in LaTeX would be able to help with that. Would you be able to help with some
927:
that removes all of the flags on the leftmost column because as someone who needs visual cues a lot, I usually look at the flags to know which country's subdivisions I'm looking for. Two questions: Why do you do that, and what's the problem with the flags? You've done this 3 times as far as I
709:
I am extremely dubious of the evidence-free claim that editors of very mathematical pages are deterred by the presence of occasional explicit unicode characters. But I can tell you for certain that good editors are highly discouraged by having their careful deliberate choices trampled by lazy
954:
I am concerned, though, that you are feeling a lack of visual clues. Is it just that as your eye moves from left to right, it's difficult to keep track of which line you were looking at? We could mitigate that by alternating row background colors between white and light grey in the style of
808:
I generally assume that editors have to learn how to use
Knowledge templates, because they are used in pretty much every article, usually quite frequently. Wikification, where we replace web-standard HTML tags (which do work without modification) with Knowledge-specific markup, is a general
813:. That wouldn't be necessary if we weren't trying to save people from learning HTML. I wasn't planning to mindlessly swap thin space HTML entities for templates, but at some point I will probably do a pass through the entire project to remove inappropriate ones. As you can see, most of
244:
Greetings! The first is the number of instances this possible formula was found, and the second is the number of pages. So in this instance, H3S10 was found 16 times across 5 pages. It looks like Graeme
Bartlett already determined it is not a chemical formula and made a redirect for
263:
The idea of using the common name to link these to articles is interesting, and something I hadn't really thought about. The spell checker doesn't really care if there's a link or not; it only looks at the display text. So, it will complain about both "H20" and
959:. Or, we could pick a color from the flag of each country and lightly tint the background with that color to make them somewhat more distinctive. That would avoid the problems with horizontal space caused by addition of the flags. --
914:
627:
Ah, thanks for the note! I hadn't noticed that I had made the same edit before. That's surprising that the character and the HTML entity have different text direction behavior; I'll be on the lookout for that in the future. --
1043:
Great! Basically you need to set the "background" CSS property on each row, in the "style" property. New rows show up in the wikitext as "|-" and usually there's already a valign property there, so we end up with something
643:
124:, which only requires changing over the blackboard bold characters. I had been converting relatively simple formulas to LaTeX completely, but it got a bit time consuming, and some longer formulas were quite daunting.
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is not substantially beneficial. The template is not inherently more accessible, being a weird english-wikipedia-ism that someone has to go do a search to learn about instead of a common standard used across the
761:
HTML syntax if one of those isn't really necessary. Perhaps the added difficulty is more pronounced for articles where there isn't already a lot of complicated mathematical markup, but that is most of them. --
1168:
Just gave it a little test by doing
Austria, and it looks great! I'd do the rest now, but I need sleep (it's 8:20pm where I am). Don't worry about doing the rest, I'll get on top of that ASAP when I wake up.
741:
space; a full space is normally a safe substitution. It turns out I actually get overlapping characters myself with no space there, so I'll see what I can do to get that fixed. In the meantime, I'll use
408:
remember reading somewhere that the Moss scripts ignore capitalised words, and as elements and chemical formulas (should) always start with a capital, these may not be issues in the first place. 😅😊 —
296:, which is a bit ugly but potentially helpful to the reader. Sometimes there's a very technical context, and the problem text shows up in chemical equations or something, where putting words (like "
424:
proper nouns) most of the ones without numbers would have articles or redirects, so they would still be ignored. The only reason they became an issue for moss is that not using subscripts violates
303:
I suspect most or all of these either aren't chemical formulas or don't have chemical substance articles we can point to, so the suggestion to add links to chemical articles might apply more to
880:, which specifies no space after "US$ " and a full, non-breaking space before "million". It looks sloppy to have different amounts of whitespace in different instances of currency expressions.
1252:
before they are deleted (that is, if they are still empty). Also, blank categories are not considered to be eligible for CSD G7, categories are specifically not included in this criteria. See
737:
space rather than removing it, which I missed. I would have expected the latter to generate complaints about overlapping text characters. I'm surprised that the complaint is that there was
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Yes, the general intention is to investigate each, determine if they are actually a chemical formula, and update the markup accordingly. There's a full list of suggestions of what to do at
130:
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remember, and as said earlier, it makes me feel slightly agitated as the removal of the flags hinders me being able to know which row is which even when looking at the country name.
198:
869:, which specifies a full, non-breaking space between a number and a unit abbreviation. It looks sloppy to have different amounts of whitespace in different measurement expressions.
937:
159:
and put the mixed markup pages on my personal cleanup todo list. It may be a few months before I get to all of them, as there are thousands of articles in my cleanup queue. --
445:, it does link each element symbol to the article on that element. I'm not sure if that's something we should be doing everywhere or nowhere? It might be worth checking with
435:
There may be other reasons to wrap these formulas, though, such as for accessibility. It doesn't look like they are currently adding alt text, but if you use "auto=yes" with
1216:
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need them and which don't benefit from a visual improvement to the way they are displayed. On the other hand, it may reduce the number of false positives for projects like
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1154:
Thank you so much! And I also appreciate you taking the time to address my initial concerns and finding this amazing way to work around it, this is gonna help a lot.
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Just out of curiosity, is there a comparable list of chemical formulas that don't contain numbers (like HNO and NaCl), and therefore could be mistaken for words?
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are they for reference only, or would it be in any way helpful to investigate and tag them with their common names, if they are indeed chemical formulae?
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More generally, you should always look at the resulting text as it is displayed to the ordinary user and make sure that it is what you want it to be.
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This seems like a huge waste of time. Most of the examples of thin spaces from your link seem deliberate, and don't seem to be harming anything. –
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If the sole author blanks a page other than a userspace page, a category page, or any type of talk page, this can be taken as a deletion request.
1015:
Excellent. Did you have any interest in doing the rest? I can explain a bit about how HTML colors work if you need some technical background. --
692:
554:
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may have been the first editor to introduce this character in 2017; pinging them to see if they are (still) having typographical problems. --
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chemical formulas if they have articles. The spell checker won't care if you make it a link or not, but it might help readers to do so.
77:
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In my experience, thin and hair spaces usually aren't necessary, and can sometimes cause excess whitespace. This is a good reason to
425:
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Enh, I've started tagging them for the 7-day process, just so no one can complain later they were deleted too hastily. --
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editors to know LaTeX. But it seems a bit much to expect, say, a math professor who already knows LaTeX to learn wikitext
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saying not to mix LaTeX and HTML, and resolve to do blackboard-bold-motivated conversions in one step rather than two? --
107:
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are not in math articles, are not fixing problems with overlapping characters, and do not align with our usual style. --
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82:
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Yeah, it's definitely more readable when it's all in LaTeX. I've just been going through making articles compliant with
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on the rows for subnational entities. I'm happy to figure that out if it's not obvious though a little trial and error.
33:
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Of course! That would be good, plus I'd be able to learn how to edit colours on to a table as well, it's a win-win!
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686:, along with reducing the skill burden of learning wikitext so we can attract and retain editors. The version of
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Thanks, I don't have any opinions on these issues accessibility-wise ... I guess what to do depends on context.
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templates) looking incorrect, and explicit hair spaces or thin spaces make the formula appear more correctly. –
396:. Having said that, since elements and most basic chemical formulas don't contain numbers, they don't contain
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template would not do anything to make them more easily searchable.In regards to both of our questions I do
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Hi, just wanted to let you know that I have decided not to pursue this merge. I did a lot of work to reduce
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around forever. Does the version without thin and hair spaces render incorrectly for you? It looks like
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template is to make it possible to search
Knowledge for chemical formulae without having to resort to
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That's an interesting question! While thinking about it, I thought of another, related question.
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makes more work; I assume I would just need to put in a manual note when I'm deleting them? --
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On one hand, I'm not sure that it's worth adding the bulk of a template for things that don't
88:
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and opined those guidelines require removal of flags due to the circumstances of this table.
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or markup issues, it might have been motivated by some report generated by that project. --
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out this list). Thanks for your interesting question and your ongoing cleanup work! --
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stop automatically breaking people's intentional choices in mathematical typography. –
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Please stop converting thin spaces to ordinary spaces in mathematical typography.
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449:(who uses a screen reader and who helped figure out how to handle fractions) or
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Hello! I have recently been fixing typos from moss and I see there is a list of
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Removal of the flags on the "List of administrative divisions by country" page
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249:, so I took that off the list. That's a preferred way to fix items that are
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 17#Monsoon
Revolution
923:. I'll just get to the point. It irritates me whenever you make an edit to
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Knowledge:Typo Team/moss#Known chemical formulas that don't use subscripts
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I like both ideas! How about we try the second option? That could work.
776:
Wikitext is built on HTML, and HTML entities are a basic feature. Using
388:.One of the main reasons that I can see for converting HTML tags to the
91:, you introduced recently the awful formula {{math|''n'' ∈ <math: -->
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851:
95:. Please, avoid mixing latex and html rendering in the same formula.
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Let me know if you have any questions, and thanks for your help! --
1262:
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to tag empty categories CSD C1. Empty categories sit for 7 days in
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24:. If you are responding to an edit related to special characters,
370:, etc. and chemical formulas that don't contain numbers, such as
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page history for older conversations if you need to refer back.
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I colorized the first few countries. How does that look? --
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List of possible chemical formulas that don't use subscripts
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per ], do not mix LaTeX and {{math}} in the same expression
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Did a few of these today. Note to myself, use edit summary:
133:(not all of which are from my edits) and several hundred
20:
I created the spelling and grammar checking project at
945:
Talk:List of administrative divisions by country#Flags
268:" ("]") because the manual of style says it should be
354:
While converting chemical formulae written with HTML
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what do the numbers on the left of the entries mean?
457:
to see if anyone has any particular preferences. --
205:
possible chemical formulas that don't use subscripts
1057:color-blind readers (who only see shades of grey).
1001:Sorry for the late response! It looks amazing!
505:written with HTML tags, you have to search for
590:have twice ignored this fact when replacing ℵ
1250:Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion
1063:has more details, but the color values are
1048:|- valign="top" style="background:#F0FFF0;"
426:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Chemistry#Symbols
947:and another editor there also pointed out
286:). Turning that into a link would make it
258:Knowledge:Typo Team/moss#Chemical formulas
809:directive, and indeed the whole point of
93:}}. I have changed it into <math: -->
362:template, should element names such as
1116:FFFFF0 - yellow (also works for gold)
858:is also polluting a citation template.
207:. I was wondering a couple of things:
733:Ah, your comment pointed out that I
490:As an example, to find instances of
378:as you mentioned, also be converted?
307:, where there usually is an article.
518:template, it can be done with just
451:Knowledge:WikiProject Accessibility
13:
229:Thanks and happy typo hunting 😄
14:
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1086:F0F0F0 - light gray (for black)
957:Template:Alternating rows table
455:Knowledge:WikiProject Chemistry
428:and Unicode subscripts violate
1302:17:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
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1272:02:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
484:
137:. We could also add a note to
1:
850:Well, the first instance, on
400:tags, so making them use the
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108:09:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
811:Knowledge:WikiProject Wikify
638:16:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
615:14:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
600:Cardinality of the continuum
585:Watch out for Hebrew letters
94:n\in\mathbb{N}</math: -->
7:
83:Coherent style for formulas
78:10:56, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
51:Typeface/Font/Computer font
10:
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884:is breaking the same rule.
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772:16:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
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507:insource:/Si\<sub\: -->
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155:Well, I added the note to
131:articles with mixed markup
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943:I laid out my reasons at
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22:Knowledge:Typo Team/moss
861:In the second article,
650:special:diff/1219321937
872:In the third article,
815:the existing instances
710:automated regressions.
129:conversions? I see 88
876:, the usage violates
865:, the usage violates
89:Nilpotent Lie algebra
70:John Maynard Friedman
68:anyway, feel free. --
1236:Category:Galatians 1
522:— no regex, or even
61:keyboard technology
1219:Monsoon Revolution
789:sitewide policy. –
684:keep markup simple
510:22\<\/sub\: -->
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512:2\<\/sub\: -->
508:8\<\/sub\: -->
328:talk page stalker
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65:computer keyboard
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