2812:. The New York Times report on an intelligence briefing that alleges there was a complex Israeli manufacturing front that even shipped pagers to normal clients. But we remain too close to this event. That briefing may not be correct. I have unanswered questions. How could Israel know that Hezbollah would purchase that model? There are possible answers to that. Someone working for Israel involved in that purchasing decision in Hezbollah for instance. But we just do not know. There are no secondary sources here. And for the avoidance of doubt, I would not accept the NY Times reporting of the intelligence briefing as a suitable historical secondary source. There is a briefing, clearly primary. There is a newspaper that tells us what the briefing said. That is a discursive primary source because it is simply recounting the detail of the primary source without synthesis. The Guardian does the same, this time quoting the NY Times
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weapon, it should be kept for the same reason "Little Boy" has a page, even though no one heard about it until after it exploded over
Hiroshima, and it was also only used once. I am sure there is a page about the Manhattan Project, and one about the Hiroshima bombing. Yet the bomb itself has its own page. Notable weapons, especially the first of their type, need their own page because weapons have a design, explosive type and mass, range and effect, delivery method, an assembly, a development process, country that developed it, countries that possess it, number produced, uses in war. The AR924 is clearly notable for reasons mentioned by others and some of the reasons Little Boy is notable.
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2815:. And those are the only two sources that provide anything that would make the pagers notable rather than the attack. All the other sources are clearly about the attack itself. Moreover the attack did not only affect these pagers but also walkie talkies using the same attack vector. The attack is clearly notable, and we must cover it. But we also need to think of the reader. Even if it is true that every single device of this model number was made by Israeli intelligence, we still have a
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1869:. The technical details of the pager are not important, but the supply chain is. Note, that other weapons (talkie-talkies) were also used in the attack. The key question the article needs to answer is who made the pagers and who is responsible for their safety, Gold Apollo or BAC Consulting. Protecting Gold Apollo from bad publicity is not a reason for deleting the article. If they go bankrupt because of this, they fully deserve it. They had a responsibility to protect their trade mark.
2460:, as both are solely notable for that attack (BAC Consulting was created exclusively for the attack; it can't be notable for anything else). If these pagers were used in another completely separate attack, or were popular outside of Hezbollah/Lebanon and Syria prior to the attack, then I would keep. However, that is not the case. We don't have a crystal ball, but it seems unlikely very many people will buy this specific brand after this incident.
2717:: I don't necessarily think of this as a weapon, it was one of two used in the attack (the other being an Icom radio). It could be written about under the pager explosions article where we can cover both items used in the attack. My concern is also that there is no information about the "walkie talkies" used in the same attack; I can't see neutrality when we so extensively cover one of the two items used, while completely ignoring the second.
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1703:. I can find no mention of "Gold Apollo AR-924," "Gold Apollo AR924" or "Gold Apollo AR" outside of news sources reporting the Israeli bombings. "Gold Apollo pager" returns only results for these news articles, the company's website, patent documents, and similar. The sources currently cited at the article fail the criteria for addressing the article topic "directly," as in the "significant coverage" criteria of
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2700:: Doesn't meet notability for products. Coverage is largely from the last few days, nothing before this time. Non-notable product a week ago, nothing sustained. Unless this happens again with the same product, I don't see notability at this time. There were also Icom radios used, so this article doesn't represent the entirety of the story.
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doubled in size. As an aside, it might be useful to not think of this article as about a pager and instead about a military weapon. We have plenty of articles about specific military weapons, from rifles to bombs and tanks, so that might be a better comparison than comparing to other articles about tech devices.
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The AR 924 is undoubtedly the most famous pager in the world today, and in any case even before the explosions it was one of the most famous, as demonstrated by the sales figures and the fact that
Hezbollah chose this model, which was therefore already known in some countries where the mobile network
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that is true at this stage. If this were merely a pager model that was modified in this particular shipment, then the pager model is simply not the weapon. Any pager would do. But despite waiting this long to !vote, I do not see that this matter has been clearly established. We do have one source in
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Many thousands of these devices exploded the other day, injuring, maiming or killing nearly 3000 people. This device is now by far the most notable pager/beeper ever made. This device is at the very center of one of the most dramatic and historic espionage and irregular warfare operations in human
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Relisting this discussion as I don't see a consensus yet. A few remarks though. As
Sirfurboy states, there has been very little discussion on sources that would demonstrate notability rather than this pager just being "in the news". I will mention that since its nomination at AFD, this article has
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Yes, if these are specifically manufactured as a booby trap device and are not a standard pager that was modified with a logic board and explosive, then it clearly becomes notable. But, what are the secondary sources that show this please? We have a lot of keeps, but still there is still no source
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as a front. This implies that this was a multi-year
Israeli operation, started in 2022 at the latest. This covert operation is distinct from the bloodshed that happened in Lebanon this week. I am redirecting BAC Consulting, to the article, as evidently the fake company had no other purpose than to
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issue. Because readers need to be directed to the page that best answers their information need, and web pages that link people off a primary page, and require the reader to read a second page to fill the gaps, will not serve that information need as well as a page that brings all the information
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for an article about this model of a pager. I'll get to sourcing in a moment. I have read all the arguments above, and I am most impressed by Petri Krohn's argument that this specific pager was built only as a weapon. If it were true that the whole company were set up specifically to deliver this
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Some of these details - especially these relating to the attack design and implementation - would be verrrrry interesting to lots of people, e.g. your humble servant. Deleting this page would deprive potential contributors of the "Base Hook"for their contribution. Note that
Knowledge has several
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Nobody here is suggesting this information should be hidden. Information about the attack has it's own article. The only information specific to this article is just the features of this device, which are not secret. This discussion is about if this article is notable enough to exist, not if it
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Edited and updated, not deleted. It should be about the AR924 mass produced and used in conflict weapon, not an article about a pager model. The story is developing and it appears this model may have only been produced as a weapon and not in
Hungary which was a shell front. As a page about a
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This is very flawed. The weapon was the explosives. Stuxnet was specific malware that exploited four zero day
Windows vulnerabilities, and the article is about the engineered malware, and not about the model of USB drive it initially infected. But also that argument is off the point. The pager
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No other model of pager produced by the company exists on
Knowledge, information related to this product should be at most made a small section on the manufacturer's page. Beyond recent events, it is otherwise completely irrelevant to anything other than the company.
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that details how umbrellas have been rebuilt into a murder weapon - but without creating an article on the actual model of umbrella that was modified - exactly because the make and model of the modified implement does not in itself provide it with notability.
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After the edits made to the article, the article clearly improved in its content and references. There is no doubt that there is no greater reason for its deletion, considering the current state of the article, which has improved quite a bit, significantly.
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history that is certain to be studied and analyzed for many years to come. Already, numerous reliable sources worldwide are discussing this device in great detail, and it boggles my mind that some editors think that this article should be summarily removed.
2332:. There are already articles for both the attack and the company who had the pager manufactured. Some information could go there. There are a lot of sources mentioning the pager, but only in the context of the attack. Specific coverage is lacking.
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together in context. The merge target discusses this pager by model number. Everything that is known about and can be said about this pager model can exist on the target page. The reader is best served by having this information there.
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Is it? What sources do we have? I asked this above and so far we have been presented with no sources to consider. We are looking for significant coverage of the product in multiple reliable independent secondary sources. No amount of
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As the story behind the logistical “capture” of the
Hezbollah supply chain gets into the public domain, it will ensure the notability of the Gold Apollo AR924 as a weapon. Article is also already available in three other languages.
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is not as developed. It certainly owes its current fame to recent events, in the same way as the iPhone 16, which for now is only famous because it was released 10 days ago and no one is surprised that it has a separate entry.--
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The alleged usage of this device in
Lebanon makes this particular model of pager notable, regardless of whether similar models are on Knowledge. Those similar models did not just explode in masse, killing and injuring people.
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this particular device, there seems to be no claim to notability outside of this single event, for which we already have an article. Thus, I believe this article fails to establish notability for the topic, and our status as
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the information about the attack is highly important. A separate article on the pager that itself is notable only for the attack prevents a centralized and well organized presentation of the information on these explosions.
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You should only bold one of your keeps. By convention at AfD we only bold our !votes once. Also you have not specified a speedy criterion. I don't think any are eligible. I think you mean you are moving from keep to keep.
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per Keeper of the Queen's Corgis and Cullen328, but most of all per Keysersmoze's comment above. The first instance of an entirely new kind of weapon; mass-manufactured booby-trapped remote-detonated personal devices. —
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given this article is not notable outside the attack on Hezbollah - and given half the article is about the attack, what if this page is deleted and a brief summary of the features of these pager's features is added to
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1632:, and doesn't appear to warrant a standalone article. Article did not exist prior to the explosions, nor seemingly any reliable sources covering it, failing the "sustained coverage" requirement of NPRODUCT.
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While the particular model of pager is likely to receive a good amount of (temporary) media scrutiny from a few outlets, this will likely be only in the context of the above-mentioned bombings. Although
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I am a deletionist when it comes to mobiles, and similar devices. But as this device was a centre/key point in a major attack, many reliable sources have covered the device significantly (thus meeting
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2837:- I prefer to err on the side of inclusion for something that was part of a famous event. There are details in this article about the device that don't belong in the article about the explosions. --
1933:. It is becoming evident that the AR924 was not just some random Gold Apollo pager intercepted by Mossad (presumedly), but it was designed and manufactured by the Israelis using the Hungarian company
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attack through this licensed pager model, and that the pager model had no other purpose than to deliver this attack then there would be a strong argument that it meets GNG. But, we don't actually
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While right now this device is mentioned only in conjunction with the 2024-09-17 Lebanon pager attack, I'm pretty sure that more details will become public in the near (and not-so-near) future.
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It seems that model may have only been made as a weapon by a covert manufacturer. Hungary denies involvement, says BAC was just a legal front. The page should be about AR924 the weapon.
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product is only notable if there are reliable independent secondary sources that significantly discuss the pager (not the attack, but the actual pager). Do we have any such sources?
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The point is that the discussion of this device and the supply chain should be in the main explosion article, which is currently a small fraction of the size that would warrant a
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553:. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:
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The flaw in this argument is that the exact make and model of pager that was manipulated does not provide justification for an article. Similarly, we have
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1949:. In the Stuxnet case the article on the weapon is ten times as long as the article on the attack itself. I believe we will see a similar trend here. --
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1967:. I have suggested that it be merged to Gold Apollo AR924. The company is a fake front, established solely to produce the AR924 killer pagers. --
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as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
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I think it would be wise to wait as evidence unfolds, hiding the page ,may be misinterpreted as corruption even though it is not.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20240917160632/https://www.apollosystemshk.com/product/42.html
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There's even less sourcing about the Icom radios, they aren't that popular to be honest.
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This particular model of pager seems to be notable only in the context of the
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This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to
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was a completely non-notable model of pager until this recent news story.
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This list is also part of the larger list of deletion debates related to
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Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:
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Well yes, we know it exists, that's not the issue being discussed.
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Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Gold Apollo#2024 Israeli tampering and explosions in Lebanon
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list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions
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no one has provided any example of which sources meet
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https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Thing_(listening_device)
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it is notable is good enough. Where are the sources?
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Diplomatic representation on this level rarely meets
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Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by
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1648:Note: This discussion has been included in the
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1628:. Seems only notable within the context of the
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894:: A quick search provided me with sources from
601:You can also add and remove other discussions (
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2731:Hallo. Then write an entry about the second.
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2568:https://en.wikipedia.org/Operation_Monopoly
2168:or move to BAC page. Please count my vote.
1741:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x50wwGjX2Ao
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1690:- Copying here what I wrote when I
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1795:should be censored. Thank you
1790:11:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
1774:00:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
1760:23:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
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1492:18:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
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368:Points of interest related to
13:
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2793:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
2479:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
2458:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
2450:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
2318:specifically. —usernamekiran
2314:, so it doesn't have to pass
1913:article for the attack itself
1701:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
1630:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
574:{{subst:delsort|Taiwan|~~~~}}
2373:Keeper of the Queen's Corgis
2129:per arguments of Cullen328.
1945:; Thank you for the link to
1938:produce these killer pagers.
964:Videoland Television Network
848:No assertion of notability.
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1963:P.S. - Someone has stated
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2626:Senior Captain Thrawn
2310:) making it pass the
2146:Per the arguments of
1624:Doesn't seem to pass
530:. It is one of many
238:Project organization
209:To do / cleanup lists
2275:Which of these meet
1965:Draft:BAC Consulting
985:The Book of Mazarbul
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2071:Bulgarian umbrella
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2603:WP:NPRODUCT
2477:Merge with
2428:Sirfurboy🏄
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