2193:, as a line integral of their scalar product", with "The definition covers the case , and that type of process must be defined (e.g. isentropic or isothermic)." The latter does not explicitly cover all forms of thermodynamic work because it doesn't mention, for example, thermodynamic work measured by an integral of electric field with respect to electric displacement. The modern thermodynamic definition of heat requires that the relevant quantity is explicitly stated as thermodynamic work. The present Knowledge article defines heat relying on the long obsolete historical caloric theory of heat, and does not accommodate friction as a generator of heat, as in the experiments of Benjamin Thompson; that obsolete view is supported by only some textbooks, which are mostly happy to define temperature before stating the second law. The ISO conception was for years the Knowledge consensus reached after long and careful editing and discussion on the talk page, but was edited out recently for no clear reason. I would like to see it restored to the article on heat, though I am not so convinced that the ISO is a uniquely perfect and exhaustive reliable source; there are other reliable sources that agree. Regarding the ISO definition, I prefer the traditional sign convention, talking not of work done
1970:. The other is the classical thermodynamic approach that defines heat as energy in transfer by mechanisms other than thermodynamic work or transfer of matter. For some decade or so, Knowledge's thoroughly debated editorial consensus preferred the latter. At present, I do not have the strength to try to restore it. The reason for the thermodynamic approach is partly that, in thermodynamics, absolute temperature is not defined until the second law has been stated, and that it is desirable to define heat solely in terms of the first law before stating the second law. Nowadays, the SI definition of temperature is not that of classical thermodynamics; nowadays, the SI definition of temperature is classified in thermodynamics as an empirical temperature, as distinct from the absolute thermodynamic concept. The classical thermodynamic approach has the advantage that it makes it a matter of pure logic that for a closed system, energy transfer is by either thermodynamic work or heat. It may be worth remarking that mechanical work is distinct from thermodynamic work, and that energy transfer with matter cannot be uniquely resolved into work and heat. It is also relevant that Planck (1927) gives emphasis to the production of heat by friction as an irreversible process.
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2239:). There is much resistance to such a new understanding, and its confirmatory observation, from researchers who have uncritically accepted the received explanation. I'm asking for acceptance from the community here that I be allowed to edit the "Importance" section of the S-G page to include a citation to that recent J. Phys. B article. The J. Phys. B publication lacks some of the criteria for an immediate reedit to Knowledge: just one author, and no citations to that article yet. Still, I would like to make that edit now because of the critical importance to quantum measurement and Q.M. foundations of realistically describing the S-G experiment.
2172:." He proposes the ISO definitions to be "authoritative". I would observe that the ISO definition of 'heat' is by exclusion of 'work': "difference between the increase in the internal energy (item 5-20.2) of a system and the work (ISO 80000-4) done on the system, provided that the amounts of substances within the system are not changed." That relies on the ISO definition of 'work', which is primarily about simple mechanical work; it reads: "process quantity describing the total action of a force
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I am glad to observe that ISO 80000 distinguishes between its definition of thermodynamic temperature and its prescriptions for temperature measurements. Thermodynamics regards the latter as empirical temperatures. The definition of entropy rests on the concepts of heat and of thermodynamic work. Am
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I have part done a survey of many many textbooks, mainly thermodynamics, that devote attention to heat as a major topic; I confess that there are yet more textbooks that should be included in my survey. There are two main approaches. One is that of the now obsolete caloric theory of heat, that heat
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I had a quick look. These authors are confused about a large number of things. Relating the scale of the solar system to particle masses is fantasy, spacetime is not generally a Lie group on which the covariant derivative acts as a Lie derivative, the Ricci tensor is not generally equal to the the
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Even with news reporting, it should probably be ignored, because news reporting will be rather run of the mill "so and so claims to have done x". Unless it's getting proper citations (rather unlikely), or just gets properly savaged/debunked, this is a nothing burger. I can't judge the parts with
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Absent a consensus to create an exception, the article as written should be deleted. It relies on two sources which are too new to be used. There does seem to be other sources so the article could be written based on those sources. Given other reliable sources, the exception for the new primary
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It has been shown that the atomic wavefunction traversing the Stern-Gerlach magnet immediately collapses to one spin eigenfunction when a field quantum is absorbed by the atom. (See the "Importance" section of the S-G page.) This contradicts almost a hundred years of mistaken explanation in our
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I won't lie, this paper is beyond my level, but it makes rather (if true), truly phenomenal claims, purporting to explain/give a framework from everything from the Dirac equation, Einstein field equations, Maxwell's equations, quantum field theory, chromodynamics, particle masses, predicts a
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I reading it aright, that ISO 80000 does not distinguish between mechanical work and thermodynamic work? Mechanical work is defined by mechanical quantities in the surrounds of the thermodynamic system. Thermodynamic work is defined by measurable state variables of the thermodynamic system.
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If the result is as fine as you say it is it will soon have received hundreds of citations in the scientific literature. That will determine if it is notable enough for
Knowledge. As far as I can see the paper has received zero citations so far. Knowledge follows but does not lead.
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I am deeply suspicious of any sentence that contains either "i.e." or "that is". Show me a sentence that contains either and I will show you a sentence that needs to be rewritten, either to turn it into two sentences or to eliminate some duplicated ideas. For an example, see my
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is pretty awful, and was just nominated for deletion. Obviously the topic is important. It either should be expanded in its own right, or because redirect to a relevant section in an existing page. Anyone know a good place for a redirect, or failing that improve it?
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Great, I think that is the basis for reworking the article to reflect what you have uncovered so far. Don't try to give a definition, but just point to issues and examples as you have done here. To me that reflects the sources much more than what is there now.
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Ricci stuff and
Riemannian whatevers, but the other claims are so ludicrous e.g. "Because a quark is equivalent to a confined electron in the fractal dimension of space–time, it results in a larger interaction energy... The mass of the down quark, m
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I've taken a look at the paper. It's nonsense. Complete and utter drivel. It's so absurd that I don't think even the authors can possibly believe in it. I tried to follow the equations, it's a series of non-sequiturs. Maybe we are dealing with a
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fake, and I did not find an article on it. Should we have articles on notable fakes -- we do have fringe science? (Most people teaching electron microscopy use it as an example of what not to do; it was astonishing that it got past reviewers.)
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Years ago there used to be a guideline or an essay that discouraged use of latin abbreviations in favour of english alternatives. I haven't seen that in a long time and did not find it in a quick search, so perhaps that point of view has been
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Einstein tensor, etc. They do show more facility with equations than most crackpots, but less than some. I would expect this paper to be aggressively ignored, other than being yet another black eye for
Elsevier and conventional peer review.
1875:. In my opinion the current article would not be accepted if offered as a create: the notability of the title is not established in the text. Logically then we should not have the article unless some can address this fundamental issue.
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Heat is defined as the form of energy that is transferred across the boundary of a system at a given temperature to another system (or the surroundings) at a lower temperature by virtue of the temperature difference between the two
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which, to me, seems to be a bad conflation of "true thermal" (phonons), enthalpy (probably wrt STP, but that is not defined), internal energy (also undefined in the article) and the thermodynamic state variable (with
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Personally, I try to avoid both of these forms. To me they mean one of two things: 1) I told you what the ref said, now I am going to correct it, or 2) my first explanation sucked, so here is another lame try.
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1768:(or at the least not NPOV). I amrequesting comments before doing anything else, this is a high importance physics page, although it was not categorized under physics. Maybe start here, or go to that
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does not discuss thermal effects, so a redirecting there would not useful. Also, the energy associated with thermal motion corresponds to kinetic energy only for simple gases.
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I've discovered that a remarkably simple, and practical experiment can now corroborate that understanding (Published in the J. of
Physics B very recently (Devereux, 2024,
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August 28 - "Nature" published an article.--NASA seems to have commented (?) that article on the same day.--The article on En-wiki was published on
September 2.--Notable
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The concept of thermal energy is by all odds the most obscure, the most mysterious, and the most ambiguous term employed by writers of elementary physics and by chemists.
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is characterised in terms of temperature; this approach appeals mostly to engineers who are considering heat transport, and currently rules the lead of the article on
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Banning aside. It would be nice to know if there is some policy about it. "That is" is preferable for accessibility to non academic people, many may not know what '
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One thing that's puzzling to me is the background of the scientists involved. Engineers working in nanomaterials and atmospheric scientists, as far as I can tell.
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Digging deeper in the paper, there are bits I just find ludicrous like connecting particle mass to the radius of the solar system, so I doubt this will pan out.
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2890:. If that is the case, then there might be consensus to change the title (even if the article might get nominated for Deletion, at any time, down the road.)
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2304:. There's a dispute about whether or not certain things are mean/effective diameters/radii, and providing sources (or common sense) doesn't seem to help.
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Does established knowledge, clearly indicate the above? Is it likely that the 'quoted' text, is ready to go, as the start of a
Knowledge-article? Thanks!
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2994:".--That field being 'indicated' might be too big words; perhaps one should say that the measurements are suggested to indicate the existence of (an)
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A. Cuadras, M. Gasulla, V. Ferrari, Thermal energy harvesting through pyroelectricity, Sensors and
Actuators A: Physical, Volume 158, Issue 1, 2010,
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That makes sense to me, but this is not sufficient. Something like "thermal energy" needs to be sourced to a text book. The first reference in
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Without a reliable reference that discusses specifically "thermal energy" as a type of energy we'll never succeed at an article that can pass
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2966:"It causes the polar winds which are experienced by pilots at the poles of Earth" is just wrong. Fix that in simple, do a merge here of
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One issue I will raise: notability. I think this paper is notable, but it is too soon to create an article. Notability will be because:
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It's making a splash in popular media (in that it popped in my Google news feed anyway), but I've yet to see a critical look at it.
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The book only contains the phrase "thermal energy" much later on page 509, where they discuss the third law, and there is a sentence
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From what I can see people thought it existed, but it had not (until now) been measured. Given that the concept is apparently well
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2998:(or indicate the existence of that field in at least a patch/'sector' of that atmospheric layer).--Thanks to user:Dicklyon.
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the solar wind in the upper atmosphere, about 150 miles (240 km) above the surface of the earth. The field is one of three
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Not sure what to do with the article though, except that I think it should be more concise. We should perhaps consider the
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has insisted on incorporating a detailed description of
Thomson's beta scattering paper of 1910 into the article on
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In others, it refers to statistical distribution of constituent particle energies which is affected by temperature.
2449:"On the same origin of quantum physics and general relativity from Riemannian geometry and Planck scale formalism"
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I think the
Knowledge policy of referring to established textbooks, regarded as reliable sources, is a good one.
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2578:'s principle of irreversible thermodynamics. My guess is that the paper is garbage. I do hope that I am wrong.
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en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Earth%27s_ambipolar_electric_field&diff=1245614451&oldid=1245389185
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regarding a recent string of (i.m.o. somewhat problematic) attempts to add new content to the article. -
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should be proportional to (3e) because we divide the electron into 1/3 fractal dimensions. Hence, ..."
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reference might be reasonable as it is peer reviewed, in a top journal, and based on a team effort.
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to see what kind of article is needed. There are at least three different kinds of incoming links:
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2375:, please follow the link to the source. Based upon reading the sources too many did not validate;
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Such a merge (into "Polar wind"), might start with (my phrase, if no one else has used it yet),
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The lead section of an article is a summary. The article itself must have content supported by
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Talk:Pomeron#Proposed_merge_of_Evolution_equations_in_high-energy_particle_physics_into_Pomeron
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I suggest wait for the citations to roll
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There is perhaps also some meaning associated with thermal transport or generation of heat
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3100:"that is" in many articles. Very annoying. Is there any consensus to make such a change?
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Srichan, Chavis; Danvirutai, Pobporn; Cheok, Adrian David; Cai, Jun; Yan, Ying (2025).
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I already have my answer, i guess.--Thank you for user:Johnjbarton, having replied.
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sources. Without that content and sources there is no way to answer your question.
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Proposed merge of Evolution equations in high-energy particle physics into Pomeron
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Is there a better title ('for what such an article should be about')? Thoughts?
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Collapse of wavefunction in Stern-Gerlach experiment: observational verification
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suggested that I draw some attention to it, since the article is a bit obscure.
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I think that both are acceptable. More prescription would be instruction creep.
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Further, since the temperature is absolute zero, the thermal energy is minimum.
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One random source implicitly defines thermal energy as energy proportional to
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Notability might come from news reporting, until then we should ignore this.
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Dude/dudette Smith et al (year 1960) 'theory about Earth's electrical field'
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For anyone reading this thread, the user in question has now been blocked.
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Zemansky in 'Use and misuse of the word "heat" in physics teaching' (1970)
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Guidance on such abbreviations is of course in the MOS. See the table in
3006:) 18:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC) /2001:2020:355:B15E:A943:FB21:996A:3DDC /
2944:) 01:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC) /2001:2020:355:B15E:A943:FB21:996A:3DDC /
2817:, and I wonder if others on this page have any thoughts about notability?
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in three-dimensional space with infinitesimal displacement (ISO 80000-3)
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The background for my question, is that En-wiki seems not to illuminate
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the planet Earth. The other two are gravity and the magnetic field. It
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I don't have access to the ref, but if someone does we have a solution.
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the polar winds which are experienced by pilots at the poles of Earth".
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Can any encyclopedia-article title here, start with these exact words?
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One textbook that uses the phrase heavily is Blundell & Blundell,
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First successful attempt to connect relativity and quantum mechanics?
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Just for visibility, my explanation for reverting the edit is on the
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Talk:Rutherford_scattering_experiments#Put_plum_pudding_stuff_here
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Request to merge "megasonic cleaning" into "ultrasonic cleaning"?
231:
1760:). It also has too many unsourced statements, and I think some
1723:
I recently joined Knowledge and my first suggested edit was to
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I think this discussion, can be moved to talk page of, say,
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of what the following link is (seemingly) trying to get at.
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Knowledge:Featured article review#Heavy metal (elements)
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And that plus three bucks will buy you a cup of coffee
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on the WikiProject report at the Signpost on 2 May 2011
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hierarchy, black hole dynamics, EPR paradox and more.
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because I think it is too heavily loaded with opinion.
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seems instead a run-off-the mill low-impact journal.
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Evolution equations in high-energy particle physics
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3269:. I disagree and believe that content belongs in
2363:Featured article review of Heavy metal (elements)
2104:I more or less agree with Zemansky on this point.
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2928:the article, into 'its own' section in say, the
15:
3313:Project-Class physics articles of NA-importance
2348:could be deleted. At least it must be renamed.
2398:, the link above is a page for just this FAR.
3194:Knowledge:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations#Other
3022:Polarization electric field in the ionosphere
2886:The wiki-article's title, does not seem like
2793:simple.wikipedia.org/Ambipolar_electric_field
1702:This page has archives. Sections older than
32:
3099:has been systematically changing i.e. -: -->
2853:, it seems to be appropriate for Knowledge.
2037:quite corresponds to it on closer analysis.
2996:ambipolar electric field in the ionosphere
2992:Ambipolar electric field in the ionosphere
2936:(wiki-article)? Should that be ruled out?
39:
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2014:However, "thermal energy" is not defined.
1906:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.sna.2009.12.018
164:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
3064:/2001:2020:355:B15E:A943:FB21:996A:3DDC
2904:Voltage-drop (observation) in ionosphere
2810:/2001:2020:355:B15E:A943:FB21:996A:3DDC
2237:https://doi.org/10.1088/1361-6455/ad5992
2027:...a deficit of thermal energy given by
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2899:Electrical-field measured in ionosphere
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2180:(item 4-9.1) along a continuous curve
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2689:Someone got it past Elsevier editors.
2603:Someone got it past Elsevier editors.
2021:. The book contains passages such as
3133:means, much less its abbreviation.--
3052:, might be a justification-in-part.
2197:the system, but rather of work done
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2051:Here's a statement we can source ;)
1733:Help:Introduction_to_talk_pages/All
170:It is of interest to the following
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3324:
3267:Rutherford scattering experiments
3256:Rutherford scattering experiments
2813:The page in question seems to be
2023:Heat is thermal energy in transit
1843:, the meaning is associated with
1706:may be automatically archived by
224:This page is within the scope of
3074:Talk:Spaghettification#Pancaking
2968:Earth's ambipolar electric field
2815:Earth's ambipolar electric field
2423:Isoelectric (electric potential)
2415:Isoelectric (electric potential)
272:
211:
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3068:Spaghettification and pancaking
2634:Astroparticle Physics (journal)
2574:I note a bizarre invocation of
2272:Quantum superposition Talk page
2232:textbooks and research papers.
3308:NA-importance physics articles
3303:Project-Class physics articles
3289:02:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
3276:Please join the discussion at
3240:08:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
3213:03:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
3188:03:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
3173:01:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
3157:22:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
3143:16:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
3125:14:47, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
3110:00:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
3086:22:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
3072:Some input might be needed at
3062:02:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3034:01:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3016:18:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
2984:02:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
2954:01:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
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2827:19:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
2808:19:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
2779:18:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
2760:18:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
2704:18:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
2211:05:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
1:
3024:" (or 'in a patch thereof').
2722:12:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
2682:11:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2649:09:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2623:08:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2588:06:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2570:06:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2541:06:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2519:06:01, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
2436:19:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
2408:00:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
2394:N.B., the main page entry is
2389:23:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
2358:23:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
2130:definition is authoritative:
311:November 2005 – December 2005
244:Knowledge:WikiProject Physics
238:and see a list of open tasks.
3048:.--Justification? This diff,
2164:that "It'd be nice to clear
1787:I avoid editing the article
336:January 2006 – February 2006
247:Template:WikiProject Physics
7:
2344:Instead the orphan article
2328:00:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
2296:Could I have extra eyes at
2284:04:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
2265:00:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
2249:21:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
2156:05:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
2142:03:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
2114:23:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
2082:22:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
2067:16:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
2047:16:31, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
2019:Concepts in Thermal Physics
1995:05:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
1980:23:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
1955:15:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
1867:07:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
1822:01:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
1801:00:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
1782:22:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
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2790:(Link, to what i 'quoted':
341:February 2006 – April 2006
301:Antiquity – September 2005
93:
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1894:{\displaystyle \Delta T}
1751:There is an odd article
2369:Featured article review
363:September 2006 (part 2)
2731:"is an electric field
2417:nominated for deletion
2373:Heavy metal (elements)
2118:It'd be nice to clear
1895:
1841:thermal energy storage
1744:Comments requested on
1709:Lowercase sigmabot III
2453:Astroparticle Physics
1896:
346:April 2006 – May 2006
2160:I agree with Editor
1932:transferred between
1882:
1839:In some cases, e.g.
351:May 2006 – July 2006
3254:Content dispute on
2888:established science
2337:Please weigh in at
1731:. The help article
1729:Ultrasonic cleaning
227:WikiProject Physics
53:WikiProject Physics
20:WikiProject Physics
3271:Plum pudding model
1917:is for this lead:
1891:
1725:Megasonic cleaning
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3165:Johnjbarton
3102:Johnjbarton
2874:Johnjbarton
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2162:fgnievinski
2134:fgnievinski
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1947:Johnjbarton
1940:difference.
1938:temperature
1814:Johnjbarton
1656:August 2024
1584:August 2023
1512:August 2022
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1368:August 2020
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1222:August 2018
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1006:August 2015
934:August 2014
862:August 2013
790:August 2012
718:August 2011
646:August 2010
574:August 2009
502:August 2008
430:August 2007
319:2006 — 2019
3297:Categories
3196:, also in
3149:Xxanthippe
3046:Polar wind
2972:Polar wind
2934:Polar wind
2930:Ionosphere
2767:verifiable
2696:XOR'easter
2580:Xxanthippe
2533:Xxanthippe
2257:Xxanthippe
2203:Chjoaygame
2148:Chjoaygame
2106:Chjoaygame
1987:Chjoaygame
1972:Chjoaygame
1793:Chjoaygame
1636:April 2024
1631:March 2024
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693:March 2011
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549:March 2009
482:April 2008
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405:March 2007
118:WT:PHYSICS
3180:Srleffler
3097:100julian
2932:, or the
2421:The page
2128:ISO 80000
1936:due to a
1806:Redirect
1770:talk page
1651:July 2024
1646:June 2024
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1502:June 2022
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420:June 2007
96:Shortcuts
3117:Sgubaldo
2976:Dicklyon
2819:PianoDan
2661:Headbomb
2549:Headbomb
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2307:Headbomb
2008:systems.
1762:WP:SYNTH
1641:May 2024
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991:May 2015
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703:May 2011
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415:May 2007
279:Archives
3226:Dolphin
3135:ReyHahn
2855:Ldm1954
2739:energy
2714:Dilaton
2615:Ldm1954
2576:Onsager
2428:Ldm1954
2400:Ldm1954
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2241:D bar x
1934:systems
1928:is the
1774:Ldm1954
1704:25 days
241:Physics
232:Physics
191:Physics
111:WT:PHYS
85:Welcome
67:Members
3263:Kurzon
3131:id est
3095:User @
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2745:causes
2641:Tercer
2126:. The
168:scale.
104:WT:PHY
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