Talk:Kyiv: Difference between revisions

2082:

and the palace of the Greek metropolitan. The fort contains the great Petcherskoi monastery from which it received its name, and which, together with the bastions and walls of the place, and the glittering gilt and colored cupolas of the churches on the neighboring eminences, makes a strong impression upon the traveller who approaches the city from the other side of the Dnieper.. This division embraces the barracks of the garrison, the arsenals and magazines, the houses of the officers, the palace of the governor, numerous churches, and the renowned catacombs of St. Anthony, consisting of exc avations in a precipitous cliff on the banks of the river, which attract numberless pilgrims from all parts of Russia through veneration for the saints whose bodies are there preserved. Adjoining are the catacombs of St. Theodosius, which contain a smaller number of saints. The Podol, which is the commercial part of the city, is regularly laid out, and embellished with gardens.

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Ortelian translation of English (and primarily Polish) Kiov. Kÿowia looks like a Dutch spelling. FWIW, that Dutch diphthong, now usually spelled "ij" (both letters being capitalized at the beginning of a sentence or a place name, so Iceland is IJsland and not Ijsland) is pronounced like English "ay". BTW, I am sure that Ortelius's atlas was more influential in shaping British geography mores than the English source he was using. --

1136: 994: 744: 71: 1892:. Besides, it is not comprehensive. The economy section doesn't make much sense and is effectively about industry. Economy is not based exclusively on industry. The section leaves many important questions unanswered (How much taxes are collected in Kiev? Where are they allocated?). The government section should ideally provide references to legislation (as the article 2099:

was adorned in the llth century with a great number of churches. After the middle of the 12th, however, it was deprived of its rank, and subsequently suffered by the devastations of the Tartars, the Lithuanian and Polish wars, the plague, and fires. After having been for about three centuries in the hands of the Poles, it was reannexed to Russia by the peace of 1667.

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written in prose, a lot of the information on cultural attractions is really just a list in disguise, and more information could be added to spruce this up a bit. Also, what about including some information about any annual cultural events or fairs in the city? Don't forget to include sources and references for information in this section, either.

2566:(other than just having the spelling fixed), on the grounds of the relative similarity between spelling being dubious. I was wondering if Къıєвъ was being compared to Київ and Киев, or if the transliterations (Kyiev, Kyiv and Kiev) were being compared. Could Alex Kov, Reginmund, Ceriy or anybody else explain this please? 2877:), where the author states "The spelling Kyiv (Kyyiv) has been used in Ukrainian for only about the last century". This is a statement about the English spelling, not pronunciation. BTW, I do not discuss it the (original) sentence makes any sense whatsoever or the author is an expert enough to be quoted about the issue. 2671:

The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses...Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be

2081:

The old town, which in the times preceding the conversion of the Russians to Christianity, under Vladimir the Great, was the principal seat of Sarmatian and Russian heathen worship, now contains, besides several other churches, the cathedral of St. Sophia, a magnificent structure of the llth century,

2075:

KIEV, II. A city, capital of the government, on the right bank of the Dnieper, 270 m. N. of Odessa; pop. in 1867, 70,591. It consists of four parts, the old town, the Petcherskoi or new fort, both on steep hills, the Podol or low town, between the hills and the river, and the Vladimir town, which was

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P. S. Please do not archive this post, it needs to stay up. I have moved all sections from "Changes by User:hkdd" and later, which includes the "Requested move" naming poll, to the new page, and archived older sections, from Feb 2006 to June 2007, in the new Archive 7. At least that's what I tried to

2424:

I would eliminate the 'modern kiev' title and simply call this 'culture'. The language really should be cleaned up, and there are no sources. Watch for weasel words and flowery language in the culture section. Things like, "hip nightclubs, classy restaurants and prestigious hotels". While it's still

2416:

What about talking about some of the local politics and the interactions of the mayor and city council with the citizens. BTW, who's the mayor? While it's generally unnecessary to list the entire members of the city council, if it's very large, some of the key officers are generally important. Maybe

2381:

The reference citation list is also not formatted properly. Citations should include full citation information (e.g. author, title, publisher, date of publication, and date of retrieval if a web link is available). This is so that, if a web link should become unavailable (404 not found), readers can

2098:

The earliest history of Kiev is traced by some to the time of the Greek colonies near the N. coast of the Black sea ; others place its foundation in the 5th century. In the last quarter of the 9th century it became the residence of the princes of Novgorod. As the cap ital of Christianized Russia, it

1831:

has sort of promised not to make any edits related to changing Kiev to Kyiv. Actually he promised not to make any edits at all until the name was changed, and it does not look that is going to happen anytime soon. The current RM will be open until September 21, 2007, and it has been requested not to

2446:

There are two galleries of images (culture and tourism) that really don't seem to contribute much to the article in its position, as they're just images. I would recommend taking the best images and using them within the text of the article, to help talk about various cultural attractions. If there

2409:

I would recommend a better organization of sections, at least for the beginning. After the lead, start with 'etymology' (move the contents of 'city name evolution' to 'etymology', since that's what it is). Then, put history, followed by geography (rename 'environment' to 'geography', and eliminate

2377:

Most obviously, the article is largely insufficiently referenced. There are large sections of the article with zero sources, and many more with only one. **Everything** doesn't **have** to be cited for GA criteria, but at a minimum, the article should provide inline citations from reliable sources

1670:

it says "Publisher: Abraham Ortelius (London, 1570)", but on the full map page I see "Auctore Antonio Jenkensono Anglo edita Londini anno 1562... Publisher: Abraham Ortelius, Antwerp, (1570) 1592", so something's mixed up. On the actual scan, I see something like "Auctore Antonio Ienkensono Anglo,

1636:

The pictured map and its title appear to be in Latin, not English. In what language were the other mentioned maps written? This should be clarified. Obviously, these would have been used as sources in the English-speaking world, but the current text implies that they were written in English, and

1776:

While the Culture section, as well as some other sections could benefit from expanded content, I would not say that it is in pitiful shape. However, I would be happy to take a look at your suggestions in time, and if I don't have too many problems navigating the rather arcane editing protocols of

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expressly says, his atlas also gives sources. The version you have there is obviously in Latin. There were later versions in Dutch, French and German. These versions were slightly different. E.g. the French version was the first atlas to give the correct shape of Southern America. Kiovia may be an

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does). The article lacks sections on crime, media, utilities (Where tap water is taken from?). As the article is likely to be expanded further, it is worth creating separate more specific articles for some large subsections (e.g. on transportation). Good luck. BTW, is the Eurovision succesion box

2756:

in the city. Which would lead us to a pretty different picture: in fact there are several power stations inside Kiev, owned by the city community and even foreign investors. Even that stinky trash-burning company is a minor energy producer, hence the "Energiya" name :) So we might, or might not,

2396:

The lead could use some work. It's not bad, but the third paragraph seems to go on and on about the history, and isn't very short and concise. Some of this material could go into the history section, and only the major facts should be included. The lead section should contain a good, clear, and

2420:

The demographics section looks good, and reasonably well referenced (although the ethnic group figures are unsourced). I also would find it interesting to have an explanation for the huge drop in population around WWII and its subsequent rise back to over a million in the decade that followed?

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the first unnecessary subsection header there), then 'demographics', and then 'economy'. I'd put 'culture' after that, followed by 'sports' (move sports to its own main section, as it can stand on its own outside of culture), and then 'government', 'education', and 'transportation' at the end.

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Wow, that whole part of the reference has been removed. Just to check - the similarity mentioned in the older reference was between the spelling in the Chronicle compared to modern Ukrainian, as opposed to Russian, wasn't it? Or was it about the Latin transliterations of each spelling?

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Kiev has a large university, founded in 1834, to which are attached a library and cabinets of medals, zoology, mineralogy, and botany. There are also various other institutions of learning, of which the Greek theological academy in the Petcherskoi monastery is the best endowed and most

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for tips on improving this section. Oh, and the image in the infobox is copyrighted; I believe the copyright tag is good, but it doesn't have a fair-use rationale. I don't really understand what, "Should be PD as 'news' by UA law, but fairuse for now." means? Nice image, though! ;-)

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There's a couple of 'see also' links in several sections that link to categories, and not individual articles. This is generally discouraged and these 'see also' links should ideally go to a separately linked article. For example, if the culture section has a lot of info, link to

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Since there's not really that many external links, it probably isn't necessary to separate them into subsections. Also, any links that are used as inline citations, need not be linked at the bottom under 'external links', since they'll fall under 'references' instead. Review

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Ladies and gentlemen, the section looks amusingly absurdous for me. Kiev, as with most settlements in Ukraine, is supplied with electricity by the national grid (like it was redundantly stated in the section). To the best of my humble knowledge, the "grid" means that no

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Septentrionalis, I think you are actually agreeing with this editor, as he or she was saying that the source was interpreted incorrectly. As you are registered (and the article is semi-protected), do you want to have a close look and see if the statement with source

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rewriting within current size. I'm sure that significant number of "new" Kievans have never even heard of all those Soviet industrial giants :) But they must be very fond of booming construction industry, PFTS stock exchange, or at least Troyeschyna bazar :)

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Well, there is no doubt about the second (1804) map that it is English. As for the earlier times, were there other than Latin maps common at all? If not, the Latin maps were the only ones used by the Anglophone travellers similar to any others.

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My apologies for the above larrikinism. This IP address has an editing history, from edits by myself and others under the same IP; I continue to use it for this reason. No Horlos reside here though, Bogdan. I've twice been mistaken for

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First, you need to show that the Russian name in Cyrillic alphabet is relevant (either because this Cyrillic name is used by at least 10% of English sources, or that the place was used to be inhabited by Russians). Second, read the

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were raised by myself seventeen days ago, and have not been corrected by any of the registered users - neither the 'regulars', nor those who added their voices to this talk page once the rename was requested. Also, if one reads

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has an entry for Kiev, but unfortunately it only briefly outlines the Slavic etymology, and not usage in English. The headword is in typical British form, with English and BGN/PCGN transliteration of the Ukrainian name: "Kiev

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I think it would be better if we left the Architectural gallery and removed the "Views of Kiev" one. As architecture is it's own section while "Views of Kiev" are mere images, without much importance to the article. Regards,

1977:

I had a look a the three OED Additions (1993 and 1997), and the up-to-date full OED Online. The main entry for "Kievan" has not been revised yet (Third Edition has been working on letters M–P), and there is no addition of

2519:

What, and be accused of having a Single-Purpose Account when I make my first edit? ;) Though I've noted a few other spelling errors in the article, so I may do so soon..Have you an opinion on the recently truncated

1499:. It is hoped that this division will be beneficial for the naming discussion, as well as make it easier to deal with other kinds of issues here. Until further notice, I'm afraid any further discussion of naming on 115:"No consensus" doesn't mean dead; also, this subpage was made for the Kiev/Kyiv dispute, and used for that. The link could be made more discreet or removed if this becomes resolved or dies away. 1506:

Furthermore, there must be no more editing of the functional archive links at the top of this page into non-functional redlinks by changing "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in them. That is plain vandalism and violation of

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for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons.

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Can the page be completely unprotected as long as the page move privileges are kept fully protected, so to avoid any gung-ho renaming? The article has been protected for quite some time, I think. --

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do... the chronology of this page was frankly a bit of a mess. I left the "Summary of older discussions over names in the articles" near the top of the page. I see people are already using the new

2940:

The primary name of the article is very important, as it is the first thing a reader sees. However, the rest of the article needs to be looked after too: grammatical issues that can be found at

2389:

The article prose can be choppy at times, and somewhat difficult to read. Minor words, like "the", or commas, are often missing. A good copyedit would be recommended. It would help to review the

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The manufactures and trade of the city are not important. Railways connect it with Moscow and St. Petersburg, Odessa, and Lemberg. A magnificent bridge, recently constructed, spans the Dnieper.

1353: 15: 2599:) as they take up too much space and are bulky. I understand that all of these images are needed to the article, but let's not get every important image into the article.. Any comments? 2749:

power station is relevant more than the others. Not to mention the "power supply in the form of natural gas, piped from..." :) Thus, the whole section is probably an original research.

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I think that the Russian name is relevant, as is the Polish name, given the influence from those two countries on the recent (last few hundred years) history of the city. Thanks,

2070:

has an entry on Kiev. Perhaps worthy to add a citation. Also, the article is interesting both as a source on the city and of the time. I take a liberty to paste it in full here:

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The 'tourism' section should probably be merged partially with the culture section, and partially with economy, if tourism is a significant aspect of the economy. Remember,

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are a lot of images, any that aren't used in the text could be added to a 'gallery' section at the end of the article, but before the 'see also' and 'references' sections.

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and responded there. Please use this page to discuss other aspects of the article's content. Any takers to improve the city economy or transportation section? Thanks. --

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of the article, and should almost be able to stand on its own without the rest of the article, if the reader chooses to only read the lead. It would help to review

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spelling, unless our anon is claiming that Ukrainian used the Latin alphabet in 1900. I don't see where English comes into it; we never have used Cyrillic.

1953:" but not Kiev. The first cited mention is in 1927 ("Kievian political power"), 1957 ("Kievan Russia"), 1959 ("Kievan State"), and 1965 ("Kievan period"). 1925:) was published in 1884. Does this actually mean "The Oxford English Dictionary cited Kiev in a quotation dated 1883"? Can someone quote the quotation? 2480: 2994:

Actually, the captions of the images still need to be fixed. Almost all of the leading articles constitute bad English grammar. I pointed this out at

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Re, OED, we need to dig out the long history who and when added this or hit the library. Despite a PD, this dictionary does not seem to be online.

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The article is nice, but it should contain more inline references (preferably to secondary rather than tertiary sources) and should be checked for

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The line "In the Ukrainian language itself, the name of the city was pronounced Kiev until only about 100 years ago." does not match the source (

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I hope this longish quote of PD text pasted to a talk page is not too annoying. Feel free to remove if it is. Just save the diff then. Cheers, --

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But regardless, the map must have been aimed at an international market, because its titles and legends are exclusively in the Latin language:

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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be

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Hope this review helps to improve the article up to GA status. Please renominate it once the issues are addressed. Cheers!

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still verify the source through other means and the reference is not totally useless. I would recommend taking a look at

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completely: "Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section". --

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This page has become less than useful for discussing the article itself, as it is flooded with discussion of the

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OK, dear friends, now it's time to get back to the article's improvement. This is a very good article and the

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You might want to add some details on the cityscape (streets & neighborhoods) to the geography section.

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If you nevertheless feel further arguing for a name change to be useful, please take it to the new subpage

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Can a registered user please correct the spelling of the word "similar" in the reference for the spelling

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WP, offer my suggestions. How will consensus be determined with regards to your hoped for edits? - --

1515:. I hope these new principles will improve the useability of this page. Good luck and happy editing. 420: 2161: 1914: 1800: 1763: 2610: 2543: 1770: 2690: 1304:

on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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of the article, ]. Please take all naming discussion there!</big></big>

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I will remove the "View of Kiev" gallery right now as there were no more comments about it.

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The Canadian Oxford Dictionary does appear to have more toponyms, including a headword for "

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for tips on including external links in sections and keeping the amount of linkspam down.

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As per above, the Kyivization discussion that still was added to this page is moved to

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the inevitable future surveys re proposals to rename the article must be notified here

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I think the definite article "the" should be removed from the following captions:

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is the ultimate place for such information. I hope to get there some day. Thanks,

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a tourist guide, and text should focus on the encyclopedic nature of information.

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edita Londini anno 1562 & dedicata istriss: D. Henrico Sÿdneo Wallis presidi."

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http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t209.e3628

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The article is a good, solid B-class article, but does not currently meet the

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Those are English maps, yes. Please look at their source at the image page. --

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I just found another old source: The American Cyclopædia, Appleton, NY, 1874

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That doesn't seem quite right, because the very first 352-page OED fascicle (

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I wonder what language was used for Beauplan's and the other maps mentioned.

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also include some information on national legislative representatives, too.

1859:. Please help improving it when reviewers leave constructive suggestions. -- 47: 2452: 1872: 1856: 1852: 1567: 2686: 2619: 2596: 2539: 2506: 2037: 1961: 1928: 1708: 1640: 1585: 2924:) should be modified or cut, as it has nothing to do with pronunciation? 2814:

I agree, the section needs a major rewrite and revamping.. If you want,

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I'm...not sure I know what you're talking about. PS, is that you Horlo?

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DO READ ARCHIVES BELOW BEFORE PLAYING WITH KIEV/KYIV/KIJÓW/etc THINGS

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Pages using WikiProject banner shell with duplicate banner templates

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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the

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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the

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page will be reverted, until the point has sunk in. I'm serious.

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It is though semiprotected and has been for almost two months. --

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The whole "Economy" section of this article desperately needs

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Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive06 (mostly finished by mid-2006)

536: 181:) There was no consensus, there is none and there will be none 2591:

I would suggest removing the image galleries of the article (

1869:

This is a nice article, but can use more inline citations. --

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for information on how to use inline citations in articles.

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status is within a reasonable reach. So, I nominated it for

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New principles for editing this talkpage. All read, please.

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This article has not yet received a rating on Knowledge's

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WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force

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listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages.

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I may be able to check the additions and the online OED.

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Could a registered user look into that please? Thanks,

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No, nothing is really mixed up here: as our article on

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Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive04 (August-December 2005)

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Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive02 (January-August 2005)

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A special subpage has been created for discussing the

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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

306: 2757:reflect all this in the main city article. Anyway, 1806:

The page is not protected from editing. Join in. --

1604:. On one of the oldest English maps of the region 1352:This article has not yet received a rating on the 1072:This article has not yet received a rating on the 3018: 2076:added to the former by the empress Catharine II. 324:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2752:On the other hand, we may want to describe the 1588:the city was mentioned in published sources as 2330:lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA) 1624:. In English traveller Joseph Marshall's book 1509:Do not disrupt Knowledge to illustrate a point 687:This article is of interest to the following 3072:Unknown-importance Unassessed Russia articles 2034:/'ki:ɪf/)", but unfortunately no quotations. 1240:template instead of this project banner. See 1090:template instead of this project banner. See 825:template instead of this project banner. See 701:template instead of this project banner. See 465: 2995: 2941: 1409:Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive01 (2003-2004) 2315:, where possible, to illustrate the topic. 1637:that doesn't appear to be completely true. 2967:Both done. Thanks for bringing this up. -- 1668:Russiae, Moscoviae et Tartariae Descriptio 1389:. Please take all naming discussion there! 680: 678: 2946: 1894:Legal status and local government of Kiev 1762:This section is in such a pity shape. I 2122:, and will not be listed at this time. 2005:Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names 1989:Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names 1628:(London, 1772) the city is referred as 3097:Mid-importance B-Class Russia articles 3019: 2799:I've tagged it all across, gentlemen. 1873:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1612:(London, 1570) the city is spelled as 1897:really that important and necessary? 1236:Please add the quality rating to the 1086:Please add the quality rating to the 821:Please add the quality rating to the 697:Please add the quality rating to the 2628:I though about that option as well. 2053:Kiev in American Encyclopaedia, 1874 1294:This article is within the scope of 1147:This article is within the scope of 1005:This article is within the scope of 882:This article is within the scope of 755:This article is within the scope of 674: 293: 80: 46: 3107:Unknown-importance Belarus articles 3037:B-Class WikiProject Cities articles 2922:http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/ 2875:http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/ 1832:revisit for six months after that. 1566:not just conducted on the subpage. 314:for discussing improvements to the 211:{{V0.5|class=A|category=Geography}} 204:{{V0.5|class=A|category=Geography}} 184: 168: 142: 125: 118: 113: 99: 87: 13: 3067:Unknown-importance Russia articles 1511:, and any more of it will lead to 1476:Naming issue mostly September 2007 562:Geography and places good articles 292: 290:Revision as of 13:20, 6 March 2008 128:Revision as of 13:20, 6 March 2008 90:Revision as of 13:08, 6 March 2008 35: 3123: 2996:Talk:Kyiv#Architectural_monuments 2942:Talk:Kyiv#Architectural_monuments 2367: 2347: 2333: 2323: 2299: 2283: 2273: 2249: 2239: 2218: 2204: 2194: 2167: 2153: 1491:for which there is no consensus. 1456:Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive08 1281: 1271: 1250: 1134: 1124: 1100: 992: 982: 961: 869: 859: 835: 742: 732: 711: 679: 548: 336:Click here to start a new topic. 3052:Top-importance Ukraine articles 2201:(citations to reliable sources) 1917:included Kiev in a quotation. 1606:Russiae, Moscoviae et Tartariae 1470:Naming issue mostly August 2007 1334:This article has been rated as 1218:This article has been rated as 1200:This article has been rated as 940:This article has been rated as 922:This article has been rated as 803:This article has been rated as 3092:Mid-importance Russia articles 2947:Talk:Kyiv#incorrect_atribution 2899:This is a statement about the 2463:05:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC) 2109:09:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1941:The OED 2nd has an entry for " 1902:15:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1884:14:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1864:03:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1837:04:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1824:00:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1811:23:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 1801:23:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 1620:, and the region was named as 566:nominee, but did not meet the 1: 3008:17:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC) 2990:04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC) 2972:07:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC) 2962:10:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC) 2934:07:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC) 2913:23:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC) 2893:18:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC) 2656:19:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC) 2581:06:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC) 2544:21:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC) 2530:06:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC) 2511:14:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC) 2499:08:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC) 2484:12:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC) 1766:on expansion. 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