Knowledge

6538: 11144::::I am willing to bet that there are consensus positions among scholars on a few basic issues but if this claim were challenged, how would I demonstrate it? The standard method in scholarly writing is to fill our footnotes with references pro and con on a given position. But this counts only published opinions. It would be fascinating to see poll on a broad range of basic questions. That would give us some hard data from which to assess where the consensus positions are. But even this would have weaknesses. The matters that I bring forward are not really in the category for super specialized knowledge. They are not, for example, things like the controversial issues in historical Jesus research project like the issue regarding status of the Gospel of Peter, i.e. whether it contains early and independent tradition, or whether all of it is late and wholly dependent on the canonical gospels? In this matter, even biblical scholars themselves are challenged by others as not being expert enough with the required specialized knowledge for these questions, but they still speak on them with authority. So should we give credence only to the consensus among experts? If so, who decides who is on the list of these acceptable experts? Again, the topics I raise, on the other hand are of such a general nature with weak language (“influenced”, “developed along side of”, etc) that certainly a professor of Humanities is expert enough of an to speak on the question with enough authority. Likewise, the Jewish scholar I noted is even more so. It’s strange to discount him on the basis that his specialty is not with Christian history, per se. bu that of Jewish history. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and esp. in this matter dealing with the origins of Christianity the expertise in Judaism is one and the same as that of Christian history for this period—they cross and lap over each other for this areas, and have just as much authority as an expert. And, I suggest that in the absence of reliable statistical data you cannot claims with any assurance at all what the consensus views are, much less discount my scholars as obscure as evidence that what I say is inaccurate, esp. when you fail to cite any scholars with specific refutations of my contributions. I note that you removed everything once again, and I’ll go back and make further changes to incorporate them since they are part of the very breif summary sections on history and origins but not so brief as they are only stubs.] 04:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 2026:::Therapeutae--its stated a fact on the Wiki article as the “Forerunners of early Christian monastic orders.” This is not disputed. Next, the Essenes: “The Essenes were a religious sect of Judaism, of which it is Jesus was thought to be a member of, and which John the Baptist is widely regarded to be a prime example of an Essene.” Enough said. The Gnostics: This one needs some wiggle words. From the linked Wiki article: “The ultimate foundational elements of gnosticism are pre-Christian. That said, the exact origins of Gnosticism are a subject of dispute amongst scholars: some think Gnosticism is fundamentally pagan in origin, but has adopted a Christian veneer; others trace its origin to Judaism; yet others think it derives from Jesus, and is a development of his teaching that is arguably as valid as the orthodox one. Most scholars accept that orthodox Christianity and its canonical texts do not predate the Gnostic movement, but emerged alongside it, out of some of the same sources. Many Gnostic sects were made up of Christians who embraced mystical theories concerning the nature of Jesus or the Christ which was increasingly at variance with the teachings of orthodox Christian faith as it developed.: Next, Dionysus: According to Martin A. Larson in The Story of Christian Origins (1977) and the American scholar Camille Paglia, a 'disciple of the Cambridge School of Anthropology,” and the wiki page itself, this mystery cult is likewise linked. Infact Paglia writes succinctly about pagan mystery religion and Christianity, and I quote, “Christianity was a development of Dionysian mystery religion which paradoxically tried to suppress nature in favor of a transcendental other world." 13. Camille Paglia, Sexual Personae: Art and Decadence from Nefertiti to Emily Dickinson (New York: Random House, 1991) 25. 10943:::This is an amazing stance you have on trying to knock down Paglia and I’m interested on what basis you can possibly maintain it. Last time I checked my mailman was not a published university professor in the Humanities. Paglia is. Infact this American scholar, a 'disciple of the Cambridge School of Anthropology,” influenced the teaching of humanities in American academe itself, advocating that comparative religion, art history and the close reading of canonical literature be brought to the center of education, with greater attentiveness toward chronology and facts in the student's approach to history. In addition to having written five books, she continues to write articles and reviews for popular media and scholarly journals, such as her long article, ''"Cults and Cosmic Consciousness: Religious Vision in the American 1960s",'' published in the classics and humanities journal ] in winter 2003. In September 2005, she was named one of the "Top 100 Public Intellectuals" in the world, in a list compiled jointly by editors of the journals "Foreign Policy" and "The Prospect" (UK). The list, which included only 10 women, also included feminist thinkers Germaine Greer, Martha Nussbaum, and Julia Kristeva. Its without question tht Paglia is a recognized authority and she write very well on the subject at hand and in no way comparable to your mailman. Also, I have brough in many, many other authorities with agree with Paglia. The problem you have is that these are all non-Christian authorities who are willing to go outside of the box imposed by Church orthodoxy, hence they are not deserving mention anymore than your mailman. But such is pure POV. 8086:::That is both smug and lacking in comprehension of the name. But because of the smugness of people like you, the American Anglicans made "The Episcopal Church in the United States of America" an official alternative name some decades ago, and now use that name in all official documents. The reason, historically, that the Episcopal Church in the USA was styled "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America" was because, at the Revolution, there was no Established Church (as there was in England) and the Roman Catholic Church would also be "competing" on American soil. The name was chosen to distinguish the episcopal Church that was Roman from the episcopal Church that was Protestant-of-Rome. In addition, although Luther's 95 Theses gave further and catalytic impetus to the Reform movements that were welling-up on the European Continent, Luther's movement was by no means first. The Moravians had beat him to the punch. Moreover, unlike the Zwinglian, Calvinist, and other Reformers, Luther (with whose movement the Moravians eventually joined) steadfastly maintained that the churches that were joining with his movement ''were'' Catholic, but that they were strongly anti-papist and hence, Protestant of Rome. This distinction is true of the Lutheran movement and of the Anglican movement. Lutherans and Anglicans are Protestant of Rome, but hold that they adhere to the (true) Catholic faith. Presbyterians, Anabaptists, the Reformed Free Churches, etc. make no such claim. This is why Lutherans and Anglicans belong in their own category 8892:::Accusation is a strong emotive word that really does not belong here. I, for my part, am trying to have an academic discussion about the definitions of persecution. I have not glorified the Revolution or said the Church deserved what happened to it. A revolution can only take place if you have a large body of people with nothing to lose, and ideologists who are smart enough to exploit them. The institutions with power in France at the time, the Monarchy, the Church and the nobles, caused the revolution - read the Wiki page. The Enlightenment came to the whole of Europe but only in France did it errupt into widespread bloody violence. No where did it lead to persecution of Christians by non Christians on the grounds of theology (no other non Christian body had enough power to do this). To use this as a "resufacing of persecution" is misleading. Previous to this, as you agree, there were isolated (ultimately failed) attempts to see off the new challenge of Christianity. From around the 4th century to the end of the 18th century Christianity of one form or another completely dominated Europe, branding any other religion (especially the older indigenous ones) heretical. These religions were then persecuted to nonexistence. It's hard to represent this fairly and in the style of an encyclopedia which is why I have never added to the "persecuted by Christians" list and will not until I am sure I can present it in a balanced way that will survive the editorship of this page. 3830: 10479:::What I do find interesting is that they list among those things that are widely accepted many of the same claims that Giovanni is making here but which others are saying is either not accurate or POV. I think to them it is POV becaue they are pusing their own brand and understanding of Christianity, but that is not NPOV. I don't think this is deliberate. To quote the site again, "Many Christians are aware of their own denomination's current beliefs, but are unfamiliar with the history of those beliefs, or of the teachings of other denominations. Many Christians have never been taught how their own denomination's beliefs developed down through the centuries." I want to quote from this site to prove my point, that a lot of what Giovanni states is widely accepted facts and not as Star put its--"contentious, not generally accepted) POV." Below are stated as generally accepted facts. In their words,"It is not a simple task to write about Christianity. There are on the order of 1,500 different Christian faith groups in North America which promote many different and conflicting beliefs. Further, many groups believe that they alone are the "true" Christian church and that all of the others are in error. As a result, one cannot write an introduction or a history of Christianity that is acceptable to all faith groups. The following is supported by historical evidence and is probably agreeable to most." 9052: 9341::::The Church was defenseless against the French state as well, as the king was held captive. Intolerance, though part of the reason why Enlightenment writers had a dislike for the Church, are not directly a reason for the revolution. Persecutory measures by the Church were seldom in the 18th century (and when they did occur they attracted even more condemnation, e.g. by Voltaire). The Revolution proclaime freedom of conscience and religion, but it took some time for them to realise that this included Catholics as well (in fact, most didn't realise at all, it was Napoleon's realpolitik that opened the way to the concordat). Jews, as individuals, were granted individual civic rights (first the Sephardi, then the Ashkenazi), but under the famous motto: "To them as individuals everything, to them as a people nothing". This has nothing to do with sympathy for the Jews and religion in general and anyway was an early measure when the anti-Christian mood wasn't as strong as later. (And note, anti-Christian is not anti-religion - Robespierre tried to introduce a "Cult of the Supreme Being", others dedicated temples to "Reason". It is persecution of Christians we are talking about, not of all religions. 2721:::Thinking about it further: when we write "Christianity is based on the belief that Jesus is the Messiah who was was raised from the dead and redeemed mankind," I think we all agree, don't we? Except for "belief," because many Christians probably regard this as fact, not "belief," and have ''faith'' that they are redeemed indeed. That's where "life and teachings" come in: according to many Christians, Jesus being the Messiah etc. was already revealed by him during his lifetime, according to the Gospels. It's a matter of faith, not fact. Perfectly fine to explain that, but there's a divide of course between how a Christian might want to describe that, and how a non-Christian might want to describe that. But the lead-sentence, as it is now, already does describe that: "whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Hebrew Bible (called the Old Testament in Christianity) and chronicled in the New Testament." It also says "professing that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and is the Son of God." "Professing," not "belief," which would be more 'subjective'; I actually think it's perfectly fine this way, the essence in just one sentence. ] - ] 03:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 11020:::I disagree. Its not inaccurate. Its very accurate. Please make your case that this is not accurate. Also, these scholars are historical authorities. Make your case why there work and creditials are not worthy to be considered authoritative. The above passage, is infact taken from an encylopeia in the respected Jewish Encylopedia written by the American scholar Kaufmann Kohler. See, here we have a religious scholar, but the reason why this reglious authority will be rejected is not because he is not scholarly but because he is not a Christian one. Kaufmann is Jewish, was the president of the Hewbrew College in Cincinatti. His writings include ''Backwards or Forwards: Lectures on Reform Judaism, Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered, Heaven and Hell in Comparative Religion, and the Origins of the Synagogue and the Church.'' I understand that adherents to the Christian Church won't like what this passage its an accurate assessment of the school of Christian thought that was ultimately triumphant and helps explain the terror and persecution the Christians imposed on others, culminated in the worst period of human history known as the Dark Ages. 2832::My first objection is minor, namely that the early Christians did ''not'' use the "Hebrew Bible," they almost exclusively used the Greek ]. The Jews did too, until they first tried a couple other Greek translations, then finally managed to revive widespread use of a Hebrew Bible. My next object to the paragraph quoted at the top of this section is the idea that a church hierarchy eventually emerged, and pulled together various ideas in order to broaden Christianity's appeal. It is well known that the basic church structure was established in the first century and maintained as Christianity expanded. Cumont's work on Mithraism is nearly 100 years old; today it seems more likely that many of Mithraism's features actually postdate Christianity's, making it more likely that it was Mithraism that borrowed from Christianity. Further, as I've already pointed out in ], many of the alleged similarities listed at that article are simply not true of Christianity at all; an example is the suggestion that Christianity started out being anti-female or even exclusively male. Many of the saints and martyrs from the early period, were women, including evangelists. ] \ 3696:"With an estimated 2.3 billion adherents, Christianity is arguably the world's largest religion. Its origins are intertwined with Judaism, with which it shares much sacred text and early history, specifically to Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible), which many Christians call the Old Testament.1 The early Christians heavily relied on the Koine Greek Alexandrine text of the Hebrew Bible commonly refered to in the west as the Septuagint. Christianity is considered an Abrahamic religion, along with Judaism and Islam (see Judeo-Christo-Islamic). While initially Christianity grew out of Judaism (using Jewish scriptures as justification of their own teachings and scriptures), the major Christian doctrines are beleived to have also emerged out of the mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East around 2000 years ago. Early Christian fathers such as Clement of Alexander and Origen mention the continuity between Greek philosophy, especially Plato, the inner mystery teachings, and Christianity. Other scholars such as Camille Paglia have noted that Christianity was a development of the Dionysian mystery religion. 5088::::::We know also from the Scrolls as well as from many passages in the New Testament that both the Essenes and Jesus were bitterly opposed to the Jewish authorities, especially the religious. There can be little doubt that the Scrolls now crumbling into dust include many passages in which the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Scribes are excoriated in the most bitter terms and that the tyranny exercised by them over the dissident Essenes is described in full detail. We know that about 104 B.C. the Essenes became a secret cult, went underground as it were, and forbade its members to discuss any of its beliefs with outsiders. We know also that about 70 B.C. the Teacher of Righteousness, the Essene leader, appeared in the temple in Jerusalem, where he denounced the authorities, and that, as a result, he was executed, probably by crucifixion; and that his followers therafter declared that he had risen from the grave on the third day, ascended to heaven, and would send a great messiah before the end of the generation to conduct the Last Judgement and inaugurate the Kingdom of the Saints on earth." 3777:::Yes, these are all seperate schools of thought. No one is saying they are identical. Otherwise why would they have different names. That would be assinine. What it does say is that there is a influence of from these schools of thought, as is often the case is the evolution of ideas, and in particular the ones I mention--the mystery cults--are the ones believed by many scholars to be the ones that did that in development of what became known as Christian religious ideas. I do not make the claim that scholarship is uniform or difinitive in these matters, nor that in some cases its little more than speculation. But, the consensus has it that these influences are probable and they offer the best explanation to date for an understanding of the historical development from a naturalist historical perspective of the religious conceptions and doctrines under light. Do you propose an alternative theory that you'd like to include, or do you just not want any such discussion to be presented, which I might add is an essential part in understanding any line of philosophy, religious or otherwise. 5068:::::: Its funny that scholars which are known and respected are cited they said to be not good sources, yet no backing of these false claims are given. The same was done with Gibbon, whose autoritative resarch is very well respected and has not be discredited in the least. But I understand why: As Dr. Larson writes, "Christian have always held that their creed was a single, unique, miraculous, and supreme revelation without predecessor or outside contributor. But the fact is that nothing could be further from the truth; Christianity is a composite of doctrines, teachings, and ideologies which have forerunners in previous religions, '''with a proximate source in the Essene cult.''' If these facts were widely known, the authority of the Church or the churches would be drastically reduced. For this reason the reigning churches are determined to show that there is little or no similarity between Essenism and original Christianity. Or they prefer simply to ignore the whole thing as if it did not exist It would be virtually impossible to do this if all the Scrolls were published. 1738:::::Also, "monotheistic" is a particular interpretation of a trinity of three persons as "monotheism". The religion teaches that this is monotheism, but objective observers may have different interpretations. Some who are accustomed to Christian teachings may not be able to see objectively that if, for example, another religion claimed that they worship three named individuals who are each God and are the same God, some people may see some polytheistic aspects to that religion. Even among some Christians, a subtle distinction is made between Jesus and the almighty God (Father), as Jesus is seen as subordinate to the Father in some ways. So, even the claim that Jesus is the same God as the Father, is not a claim in the absolute sense. Jewish people, for example, believe in a different form of monotheism whereby they believe in God as one interpersonal being who often refers to Himself in their Scriptures as singular "I". This is clearly a different form of monotheism than Christianity. I propose that the difference is important enough, that a distinction should be made. 727:::It is the dominant theory that the majority hold to as factual. Infact, I do not know one reputable scholar who would deny these xian precursors. However, if your issues are that minor, i.e. only language such as "may," then why not make those word choice adjustments as you suggest here, instead of reverting the whole section, and getting rid of everything? As it stands now, the supresion of secular thought, and the current language--ironically lacking the very same neutral language regarding Jesus that you say makes my contribution NPOV, is what we have now, and thus is NPOV. FOr example, my inclusion of the word "purported" in "centered on the stories it teaches about the ''purported'' life, and actions of ]....is reverted. By your own logic, if you're consistent, is POV. Surely you are aware of that the Xian teaching about the life and actions of Jesus are highly doubtful as historical, and thus should be qualified with appropriate language accordingly. But, I guess this is pro-Christian so we see the double standard being enforced. ] 10:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 3292::Thank you for addressing those, Mika. Another general concern that I think others have already raised is the use of passive voice to express opinions or speculation, without attributing that speculation to anyone. Not every such sentence needs a full footnote to a book and page number, but it should at least say that "some/many/most scholars/critics/Christians/whoever think that..." in places that now say things like "...doctrines are believed..." for instance. Using passive voice to avoid attributing an idea or opinion to anyone at all is one example of "weasel words," something that can be hard to avoid. But atributing the idea, and in general using active voice instead of passive, is a good way to strengthen any article. Other parts of the above are clearly speculation, but speculation by whom? For instance, "it is fairly probably that..." and the final line saying that the potpourri of ideas explains the confusion etc. Other theories also explain the confusion, so why list only this one without attributing it to anyone in general or in particular? ] \ 2867:::::::Upon reflection, I've realized that the concept of religion, particularly in the United States and among evangelical circles, is often closely tied to true faith. However, in Catholic countries in Europe, where Christianity and the Church have a deep historical presence, or in Scandinavian countries with national churches that are integral to their cultural identity, you'll find that a significant portion of those who identify as Christians view Christianity more as a cultural identity than as faith in Jesus Christ—the risen Son of God. This perspective also applies to notable segments in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, where Christian identity is more closely linked to ethnicity and culture than to purely religious beliefs. Similarly, in the Middle East and North Africa, ethnoreligious Christian groups such as the Copts and Maronites often view Christianity through a cultural lens rather than strictly religious. In places like Singapore or South Korea, Christianity might be associated with social and economic status. 3023:"With an estimated , '''Christianity''' is arguably the world's largest ]. Its origins are intertwined with ], with which it shares much sacred text and early history, specifically to ] (the Hebrew Bible), which many Christians call the ].{{fn|2}} The early Christians heavily relied on the Koine Greek Alexandrine text of the Hebrew Bible commonly refered to in the west as the ]. Christianity is considered an ], along with ] and ] (''see ]''). While initially Christianity grew out of Judaism (using Jewish scriptures as justification of their own teachings and scriptures), the major Christian doctrines are beleived to have also emerged out of the mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East around 2000 years ago. Early Christian fathers such as Clement of Alexander and Origen mention the continuity between Greek philosophy, especially Plato, the inner mystery teachings, and Christianity. Other scholars such as Camille Paglia have noted that Christianity was a development of the ] mystery religion. 4801::::John the Baptist – B. Witherington III writes a list of points connecting John the Baptist with the Essene community at Qumran. The Essenes frequently adopted orphans; it is likely that John was orphaned at an early age. John spent his adolescence in the Judean wilderness; the Essenes were locally based at Qumran in the Judean desert. The Baptist and the Essenes had a shared interest in priestly matters and a priestly Messiah and a shared focus on Isaiah 40:3. Both parties adhered to Spartan diets and ascetical behaviour. Similar interests in sacramentology also link the Baptist to the Essenes (in that John’s water rite was comparable to Qumran ablution rights). Of the three main Jewish sects, John the Baptist’s eschatological orientation is closest to the Essene position. ---citations 38] See B. Witherington III’s article on John the Baptist in the “Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels” IV Josephus, War 2.120; 1QS 5.2; 1QS 8.14; Damascus Rule 12.13-14 specifies how to eat locusts and honey." 9257:::I think that perhaps Sophia may be trying to make distinction between someone being persecuted for their individually held, personal religious beliefs and expressions, and being persecuted for being a member of the Church, the outwardly visible, formal organization of Christians, which she describes as a corrupt institution at least in 18th century France. For many Protestants today that's an important distinction, but most Catholic and Orthodox Christians would say it's either a misleading or entirely false distinction. If a government were to announce, "You can be a Christian as long as you're not affiliated with this specifically named church," Protestants would for the most part easily switch denominations and be fine if theirs were targeted, but Catholics and Orthodox would be for the most part stuck, as were the nuns in France. Sophia, please correct me if I've misstated your position in any way. ] 13:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 3717: 8797::I'm sure the Nuns were wonderful people but they were guilotined for being Nuns - not Christians, for being part of a hierarchy that left the general populace starving and disaffected. The churches were full of wealth while the people starved - that is why they were a target, not for their religious beliefs. The purpose of the Revolution was to overthrow the institutions that the people saw as oppressing them - that included the Monarchy, the nobles and the Church. We introduce new and worry definitions of persecution (as well as opening a can of worms) if we class anyone who reacts against an authority that leaves them powerless and starving a "persecutor". That is why I object to its inclusion. I have no axe to grind or Church history to defend. I am genuinely surprised that this is proving so controversial which is why I am concerned at the heavy number of RC editors on this page. 2316:{{u|Durziil89}} thank you for your thoughtfull reply. {{tq|Son of God}} sounds like a good point. We can also simply remove "Son of God" from the first line. If we choose yoyr line, I'd skip "detailed" and write "narrated," since "detailed" implies factual accuracy, whereas the Historical Jesus research has left almost nothing of this 'life' as narrated in the Gospels. But... it is still not a definition, but an explication of what is also said with "chronicled in the New Testament." So, better would be to write "narrated in the New Testament, which details the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." And we also have the line "The four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John describe Jesus's life and teachings, with the Old Testament as the gospels' respected background," so that would be a doublure. Regards, ] - ] 17:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 10304:::I'm afraid you are the one that has it wrong. Dionysus was pagen, yes, and Christianity was a development of it, at least according to many scholars. It is also a god of mystery religious rites, such as those practiced in honor of ] and ] at Eleusis near Athens. In the ] mysteries, he wears the "bassaris" or fox-skin, symbolizing new life. His own rites the ] were the most secretive of all (See also ]) Many scholars believe that Dionysus is a ] of a local Greek nature deity and a more powerful god from ] or ] such as ]. Likewise with the Essense. As the Sons of Light, this reflected an influence from Zoroastrianism via their parent ideology of Pythagoreanism. According to Larson, both the Essenes and Pythagoreans resembled thiasoi, or cult units of the ] mysteries. Similiaries between both of these mystery cults and Christianity is evidence of their influences. 3580:::Hi Strom Rider. I'd be interested to see a reputable published scholar that discounts these attributed influences of early Christianity. I find it to be the prevailing thought among secular scholarship on the question, as cited. I agree that it raises questions about the stories of Jesus as described in the Bible. But, the bible is a book of faith and so the historical Jesus is probably quite different than the Christian one which incorporates myths that are part of the religious faith and consitent with its origins as described. No disrespect intended, ofcourse. However, this issue of the historcity of Jesus need not be mentioned here, since the title says Jesus "according to the New Testiment" which is a book of faith. Moreover, there are already many articles devoted to this issue alone: ], and ], and ], and ], and ]. ] 11:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Gio 2348:“The resemblances between the two churches were so striking as to impress even the minds of antiquity” (Cumont, 193). From their common Zoroastrian sources, Mithraism first held that all souls pre-existed in the ethereal regions, and inhabited a body upon birth. Life then becomes a great struggle between good and evil, spirit and body, the children of light versus the children of darkness (identical to Pythagoreanism). All souls were to be judged by Mithra (represented as a bull) with the Elect going to heaven, and the earthly and evil being annihilated in a great battle. Mithraism divided the human race into three classes: the spiritual Elect, the wicked, and those who try to be good but can't seem to overcome evil. The Elect go straight to heaven, while the good-intentioned wait until judgment to be resurrected, where the wicked will be destroyed. 2432:::I think we're not finished yet. The lead actually repeats the core tenets of Christianity, but "life and teachings" are barely treated in the body of the article. If we leave these two out, we get a more coherent first line which summarizes what's actually in the article. Instead of focusing on that, we better ask: "Why wluld it matter to mention 'life and teachings'?" What makes them important? As an example how to live? Yes, definitely. Other reasons? Because they 'prove' that Jesus is Christ. From a Christian point of view, yes. But from a non-Christian, agnostic, non-theistic point of view: no, because that's a matter of faith, not fact. We don't have a section which ''explains'' what Christianity is 'based on', or what the importance of his "life and teachings" is. What would we put in such a section? ] - ] 18:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 1961::Sorry, one more comment, but now with more of my personal opinion: In the sentence "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ," "Abrahamic monotheistic religion" is a definiton of what Christianity is, but that alone tells us nothing of what it entails. Neither does "based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ," except that it implicitly presents ''beliefs'' as historical statements of fact; that's actually kind of a rhetorical strategy. In contrast, "venerating Jesus Christ as the Messiah or redeemer of mankind, exemplified in his life and teachings as described in the New Testament," points directly to the essence of Christianity, ''and'' to the sources for this belief, which is much more informative and accurate. Regards, ] - ] 11:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 8943:::"accusations" was probably not the best way to put it. I certainly didn't think you accused me. I meant this bundle of "grievances" laid at the church's doorstep, provided here by you but certainly not originated by you. And the "glorification" referred to a common understanding that revolutions and uprisings are always and entirely good (unless of course when they aren't) and authority is always bad. I agree, I too can relate to such a romantic sympathy for the rebel and to the joy of seeing a tyrant fall (I especially like accounts of Robespierre's fall) (Question remaines what is a tyrant and what is merely a ruler - I don't think Louis XVI was a tyrant in any way). There are two sides to the story. I thought I detected this common understanding in some of your comments. If I am wrong I gladly take it back. 784:{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Top |seventh-day-adventist-church=yes|seventh-day-adventist-church-importance=Top |anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Top |catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top |eastern-orthodoxy=yes |eastern-orthodoxy-importance=Top|jesus-work-group=yes|methodism-work-group=yes|methodism-importance=Low|oriental-orthodoxy=yes |oriental-orthodoxy-importance=Top|baptist-work-group=yes|baptist-importance=Top |indian-work-group=yes|indian-importance=Top |calvinism=yes|calvinism-importance=Top|arminianism=yes|arminianism-importance=Mid|charismatic-christianity=yes|charismatic christianity-importance=|evangelical-christianity=yes |evangelical christianity-importance=Top|holiness-movement=yes|holiness-movement-importance=|theology-work-group=yes|theology-importance=}} 1152:< Change "religion" to "relationship with God". Explanation: religion is created by us humans, God did not do all that he did (and is actively doing in our lives) for us to be robots to what we have made look obeying and believing in Him is. He wants to have a relationship with every one of us as we are created by Him, He is our Creator. A relationship is a personal connection with Him as our Heavenly Father. He loves us and longs for us so much and doesn't want us to feel like we are in a jail because of religion, but to understand that we can be set free ,by His mercy and sacrifice on the cross for our sins,through a relationship with Him,so that we shall not perish (John 3:16).His Word is TRUE, and The Truth will set us free (John 8:31-32) . > ] (]) 20:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC) 8839::The Church was not attacked in the Revolution because of what you say but because of Enlightenment ideology and because the new rulers thought it proper to rob the Church of her property in order to solve the budget problems (while they at the same proclaimed the inviolability of their own property). The Church didn't cause any starving of the general populace. I agree that some of those involved thought as you think now and these saw King and Church as oppressive. It's not are business to worry about whether someone because of our definitions (and they are not new) may no longer rebel against authority. I am not picking sides right now regards the political event called French Revolution, but WP should neither adhere to the (sadly all too common) glorification of the revolution. 5921: 13541: 11124::::Your objections about consensus raise an underlying question: how do we know what the scholarly consensus is on a given issue? You imply that most professional biblical scholars are in disagreement with the conclusions of the academics I have cited. Well, how do you know this to be true? How do we determine when there is a consensus? Who is to judge who qualifies as a a suitable authority enough for me to use here? It seems you limit this to only Christians? At least that is the only ones you have cited. I have cited an abundance of scholars, but to you they are “obscure.” You keep saying my claims are inaccurate, etc, but you failed to cite any scholar that you have which supports your claims. Please quote them, even if they are Christians, that make your case? 9204::I don't think that Christianity was incidental as the campaign was directed against Christianity (in the only version existing in France, the RCC). People were persecuted because of their adherence to the Church and Christianity. If the persecutors considered the Church a criminal organisation worthy of persecuting because of real or alleged crimes that doesn't change the fact that they persecuted those standing by their convictions. The Roman Emperors (Nero, and most since Traian) considered the Church a criminal organisation and "being a Christian" a crime. Did the revolutionaries ask the Carmelites whether they committed any crimes? No, they told them give up their way of life (which is one of many ways of serving God, but it was the one these women had chosen). 10975:::If these “out there” views are not generally accepted then please cite your sources that make this claim, since you claim its completely untrue. I have already cited the many scholars who do support this view. Its only “out there” from the persepctive of relgious devotees who are boxed in by the narrow confines of their religious adherence. However, such folks won’t even talk about this area, and their exclusion of it is noteworthy of their bias. I’ll be happy to include some of the scholars aby names as examples, if you prefer for the points. I would even be willing to state that it is disputed by relgious biblical scholars, as well. The point here is that suppression of non-chritian orthodoxy pertient to the subject does not promote neutrality, it kills it. 3069: 10459:::However, other poitns are certainly widely accepted as facts, and I think can be stated as facts. I disagree with Star1977 list of what he thinks are not generally accepted and thus POV if stated as a fact. For example, one source that I respect is the well known site www.religioustolerance.org I don't think anyone where would disgree with their NPOV mission, "We try to describe all viewpoints on controversial religious topics objectively and fairly." I think they do a great job at neutrality by including all points of view and separate what is commonly accepted by most scholars with elements that are disuted, listing the alternative views. They are a model to be emulated for this encylopeida not only for their NPOV but also becaue its well referenced. 13105:< Change "religion" to "relationship with God". Explanation: religion is created by us humans, God did not do all that he did (and is actively doing in our lives) for us to be robots to what we have made look obeying and believing in Him is. He wants to have a relationship with every one of us as we are created by Him, He is our Creator. A relationship is a personal connection with Him as our Heavenly Father. He loves us and longs for us so much and doesn't want us to feel like we are in a jail because of religion, but to understand that we can be set free ,by His mercy and sacrifice on the cross for our sins,through a relationship with Him,so that we shall not perish (John 3:16).His Word is TRUE, and The Truth will set us free (John 8:31-32) . : --> 1323::I would possibly agree in the abstract, but unfortunately the specifics make this a non-starter I would strongly object to, for the simple fact we would have to prioritize a specific artistic tradition or other sectional or historical dimension in selecting a representation. You could make the argument this is still the case with the architectural style of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre: however, the fact that diverse Christians visit and control the site makes me worry about that less, on top of its importance for all Christians absolute location–wise. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 05:21, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 7746:: Someone asked for specific objections to the list of persecutions; here are some. The Spanish Inquisition was mainly under the control of the Spanish monarchy, not the Church. Prosecutions were generally carried out by secular authorities. Regarding the Cathars, my limited reading has yet to find anything to suggest that the goal was to "exterminate" them; the goal was conversion. There is also the question of religious versus secular motivations there as well, as it resulted in quite a bit of land changing hands. The heretication site purports to be well researched, but contains a number of inaccuracies; many of its "good" facts seem to be presented so as to deliberately mislead the reader. ] 17:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 14290: 883: 6495::This is indeed striking: There is evidence for the historical (yes, human) existence of Jesus. It is established beyond any reasonable doubt and only a few extremists still deny it. Certainly the existence of Jesus was not contented (let alone "ferocious"ly) in antiquity. True, Gnostics and Docetists considered him a spirit "undefiled by matter" but how far must a modern man stretch to use this as a basis for doubting Jesus' historicity, and how it such "evidence" able to refute the evidence from historical person who historically state that they historically spoke with a historical Jesus. And again, it is contentious whether these who "had NO belief in a flesh and blood Jesus" should be considered Christians at all. 9020:::In the final part of your post you are mixing up two things: heresies and pagan religions. Heresies, as false doctrines within Christianity, were persecuted, but they were mostly not "older indigenous" religions (exceptions surfacing in the few witch trials of the Middle Ages). These were not so much persecuted into extinction (though there have been some instances, e.g. Charlemagne's Saxon War or the "Wendish crusade", both controversial at their time) but rather were superceded by Christianity. Some have complaint about to many "pagan remnants" lingering on in popular religion. I don't think the complaint is very fitting but it can only be made because these "older indigenous" religions were not just stamped out. 4697:::I challenge the use of Origen and Tertullian to support the idea that mystery religions were incorporated into Christianity. I also dispute the idea that the church hierarchy "emphasized common features to attract followers." For the first few centuries, being a church hierarch was a good way to get yourself killed, tortured or banished; these people were not marketers, in fact much of their appeal came from choosing death rather than compromise of their beliefs. Most surviving records of the mystery religions have those religions being condemned by orthodox Christians, not admired. And as I've said before, the dates suggest that any borrowing was from Christianity into Mithraism. ] 17:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 2743::::"Professing that Jesus Christ as the Son of God" is central to many Christian denominations, but it is not a universally held view. Some groups, such as the Unitarian and Mormon churches, are non-trinitarian while still being part of the broader Christian tradition. Non-trinitarian perspectives have been present throughout Christian history, from early Arianism and Catharism to Unitarianism and Restorationist movements. Although these groups may be deemed "heretical" by mainstream denominations, they constitute a significant and enduring aspect of Christian tradition. As such, statements about Christian belief that only recognize the Trinitarian perspective might exclude these non-trinitarian denominations. 14172:"Professing that Jesus Christ as the Son of God" is central to many Christian denominations, but it is not a universally held view. Some groups, such as the Unitarian and Mormon churches, are non-trinitarian while still being part of the broader Christian tradition. Non-trinitarian perspectives have been present throughout Christian history, from early Arianism and Catharism to Unitarianism and Restorationist movements. Although these groups may be deemed "heretical" by mainstream denominations, they constitute a significant and enduring aspect of Christian tradition. As such, statements about Christian belief that only recognize the Trinitarian perspective might exclude these non-trinitarian denominations. 3325::Again about Mithraism, I believe current thinking place their texts no earlier than mid second century, while the gospels and other Christian stories of Christ's birth etc. date no later than the end of the first century. Therefore it's more likely that Mithraism borrowed some ideas from Christianity, if any borrowing between them took place at all. Regarding gnosticism, it's at least as likely that gnosticism borrowed a few Christian names to attach to its aeons without really changing its ideas, as Christianity borrowed from gnosticism. Most 'gnostic Christians' tried to reject Judaism's influence, strongly suggesting that they were'nt well connected or descended from any of Jesus' Jewish followers. 4779:::::False claim. There is historical evidence. Its a fact that John the Baptist is widely regarded as an Essene. By whom, you ask? By scholars looking at the evidence. Just go check any other encylopeida and it says as much. For example, the entry for JOHN THE BAPTIST in the respected Jewish Encylopedia (article by the esteemed scholar Kaufmann Kohler) describes him as an "'''Essene saint''' and preacher; flourished between 20 and 30 C.E.; fore-runner of Jesus of Nazareth and originator of the Christian movement. Of his life and character Josephus ("Ant." xviii. 5, § 2)..." The Encylopeadiea Britannica states, "As a young man John lived...as part of a Jewish monastic community such as the Essenes." 4759::::2. ''"The Essenes were a religious sect of Judaism, of which it is Jesus was thought to be a member of '''', and which John the Baptist is widely regarded to be a prime example of an Essene.'' Where to begin, apart from this being atrocious grammar. First, "was thought to be a member of" and "widely regarded to be" &mdash; by whom? Unatributed speculation is no basis for concluding that this is historical fact. In fact, there is '''''<big> NO </big>''''' historical evidence that either Jesus or John the Baptist was an Essene. It's an interesting hypothesis, but basically speculation based on ''some'' ritual and theological similarities. ] ] 19:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 5150::The early Christians heavily relied on the Koine Greek Alexandrine text of the Hebrew Bible commonly refered to in the West as the ]. While initially Christianity grew out of Judaism (using Jewish scriptures as justification of their own teachings and scriptures), the major Christian doctrines are believed to have also emerged out of the mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East around 2000 years ago. Early Christian fathers such as Clement of Alexander and Origen mention the continuity between Greek philosophy, especially ], the inner mystery teachings, and Christianity. Other scholars such as ] have noted that Christianity was a development of the ] mystery religion. 2856:::::::{{talkquote|At its most basic, Christianity is the faith tradition that focuses on the figure of Jesus Christ. In this context, faith refers both to the believers’ act of trust and to the content of their faith. As a tradition, Christianity is more than a system of religious belief. It also has generated a culture, a set of ideas and ways of life, practices, and artifacts that have been handed down from generation to generation since Jesus first became the object of faith. Christianity is thus both a living tradition of faith and the culture that the faith leaves behind. The agent of Christianity is the church, the community of people who make up the body of believers.}} 11082:::Paglia is, as you say, a professor of humanities. But that doesn't make her an expert or authority on Christian history. My concern is not POV -- there are authorities and experts who are far from orthodox whose work I accept in various fields (Marcus Borg, for instance, in "Jesus research"...well, the Jesus Seminar in general). I would accept Borg (for instance) as an authority in ''that'' field, but not in terms of, say, Reformation history or Marxist economics. Related fields to Jesus research? Possibly. But he's not expert in all of them. Paglia isn't an accepted authority in Christian history. You and I can't change that. ] 01:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 12198: 2259:::I left out the last mystery cult, Mithranism. This can be found both in Ernest Renan, in The Origins of Christianity, and Martin A. Larson, in The Story of Christian Origins (1977), which states that Mithraism and Christianity derived from the same sources, originally from the savior cult of Osiris. However, Larson believes that the Essenes were Jewish Pythagoreans, whose members not only gave birth to Christianity as Essenes, but were directly influenced by Zoroastrian doctrine as Pythagoreans. And that Mithraism, an established but exclusive sect devoted to social justice, was assimilated by state-sponsored Christianity before being disposed of in name. 11726: 11609: 2371: 3036:]. In that article, I see so-called "pluriform monotheism". Please refer to my note above about the claim that Christianity is monotheistic. Perhaps the significance of monotheistic belief must be defined, to preclude the claim that other forms of monotheism such as so-called "pluriform monotheism" are logical with respect to the significance of monotheistic belief. One might say that "Christianity claims to be a monotheist belief". However, given that Christians believe in a trinity, I don't see how one can use that as proof of monotheism, again, with respect to the significance of monotheistic belief. ] (]) 16:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 10531: 6611:::I'm familiar with Alister McGrath, having read one of his books, and I was not impressed by it. For those who don't know he is the Director of the Oxford Centre for Evangelism and Apologetics at Wycliffe Hall. He is one of the most widely read and influential Christian writers of a conservative bent, but his bias gets the better of him in many cases. How about a mainstream secular historian on these questions? I have provided already too many above, which do support my claims. About the Larson book, try again. You should be able to search for author and you can see all his books, along with reviews. ] 13:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 7433: 3546: 8055::Actually, as a Lutheran I object to what you're trying to do (though I wasn't involved in reverting it here.) Lutherans are certainly Protestants. The differences between the Lutheran and Anglican churches and the other Protestant churches could perhaps be dealt with some other way, but don't try to tell us we aren't Protestant. We were the ''first'' Protestants. Look up Protestant in the OED if you don't believe me. It is not productive to try to redefine words to mean what ''you'' want them to mean, and I can't see how an attempt to implicitly redefine a word like this can ever be NPOV.--] 06:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 7808:#Some of their historical statements are just laughably vague or inaccurate. To take merely one example, there is a whole section on the 'historical Christian support of slavery'. Saying that simply ignores historical facts. Christians were in fact at the forefront of the abolitionist movement, both in the US and Europe. Many of the leading abolitionists were not only practicing Christians, but in most cases cited their faith as a reason for opposing slavery. True there were Christians arguing for the continuance of slavery also, but to claim that Christianity as a whole was on the side of slavery is just plain wrong. 1230:::Despite the changes of language my work is simply reverted on the pretext of POV. I wonder what next will be the rationale to advance a purely religious perspective, suppressing valuable understandings from secular scholarship regarding the origins of this religion. It appears too tabboo to entertain such knowlege for if followers of the faith understand the historical basis for their beliefs it my harm their faith? This type of POV pushing that suppresses knowlege is in keeping with the type of religious intolerance we seen in history, but is no place for an encylopedia. ] 00:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 14439:. In that article, I see so-called "pluriform monotheism". Please refer to my note above about the claim that Christianity is monotheistic. Perhaps the significance of monotheistic belief must be defined, to preclude the claim that other forms of monotheism such as so-called "pluriform monotheism" are logical with respect to the significance of monotheistic belief. One might say that "Christianity claims to be a monotheist belief". However, given that Christians believe in a trinity, I don't see how one can use that as proof of monotheism, again, with respect to the significance of monotheistic belief. 5900: 7786:#It is attempting something entirely unreasonable - namely it is taking a late twentieth century definition of 'human rights' and applying it to an organisation's record over 2000 years. Not only is that unreasonable, but frankly no organisation or group would stand up to such scrutiny. Atheists, Americans, Italians, Asians or People with Blue Eyes; none would look good if what they did 1000 years ago was judged by the standards of today. Likewise a Knowledge from 1000 years ago would undoubtedly condemn 21st century Western society for what they perceived as horrendous crimes. 3225:::Still, we know little about whatever an original religious movement was in Judaism before Paul. Paul himself speaks of his own "falsehood" and "all things to all people". We also know of the Roman religious common ground impetus. The people of the original religious movement in Judaism that became Christianity, were still practicing animal sacrifices. We have none of their books or writings. We only have Paul's writings, and the subsequent writings. Why were the more direct followers of Jesus practicing animal sacrifices? I think that the article cannot ignore these aspects. 2878:::::::I was particularly struck by a sentence from scholar Eleanor V. Lewis: "Until the seventeenth century, Christianity meant a body of people, but since then it refers only to a body of beliefs" . This highlights the evolution of how Christianity is defined, revealing the different aspects of its identity across various contexts and historical periods. Additionally, the existence of non-trinitarian Christian sects throughout Christian history and theology further complicates and enriches the understanding of what Christianity encompasses. ] (]) 19:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 5366: 3737::I disagree with the entire "mystery religion" thing. Aside from the fact that it's inaccurate (reason enough to not include it), it's unsourced. Clement & Origen commenting on Greek philosophy is not an endorsement on their part of the "mystery religion" theory...that's a separate school of thought. Paglia and Larson? If we're going to make this kind of claim, if it is true and supported by "most scholarship" (also completely untrue...and unsourced), surely there are dozens of mainstream historians we could cite. Let's do that first. ] 11:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 5161::In its early years, what came to be called Christianity may have existed as a variety of mystery cults, limited to a small number of people and expounding esoteric teachings. Most scholarship believes these to included the Nasseni, ],], ], ], and while there is much speculation that Christian beliefs were influenced by ] which was assimilated by state-sponsored Christianity before being diposed of in name, according to Martin A. Larson, in The Story of Christian Origins (1977), Mithraism and Christianity derived from the same sources, originally from the savior cult of ]. 9330:::Pre revolutionary France was a different matter see ]. For the Catholics quite the reverse, in fact the wiki page on the ] lists religious intolerance as one of the main causes of the Revolution. This was due to persecution of other faiths and other Christian denominations by the French RC Church (see ] and ] for example). The post Revolution 1789 ] guaranteed religious freedom for all for the first time, where that freedom did not impact on others. For example Jews were only granted French citizenship after the Revolution - hardly the work of an "anti religion" regime. 9427::::According to ], measures taken against Christians including abolishing the word ''dimanche'' (Sunday), abolishing the Sabbath, and forbidding any public display of the Christian Cross, and the proposal of two alternate religions. This doesn't sound like a victory of Huguenots over Roman Catholics, but more like a victory of atheists over Christians. Like the ], they were apparently content to promote any religion or no religion at the expense of Christianity, so it's not surprising that Jews enjoyed greater freedom at this time. ] 17:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 7154::::Personal websites and ] are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website. Remember that it is easy for anybody to create a website and to claim to be an expert in a certain field, or to start an "expert group", "human rights group", church, or other type of association. Several million people have created their own blogs in the last few years. They are not regarded as acceptable sources for Knowledge. See ] for more information. 8015: 2060:::I hope these suffice as adequate sourced material. Somehow I know no matter what I do, prove, or change, the Christian slant will supress all secular scohlarship as POV if it counters their religious conception which is ahistorical at its core. To shed too much light on historical context and material basis for a belief system is to demysify it and bring understanding for how these ideas were formed. Such is counter to the devine, inspired nature that Christian faith depends on--thus its supressed and evidence of POV pushing. ] 01:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 2586: 570: 7051:::Well that is your POV/Claim. If you say that its inaccurate, not worthwhile, etc, then please make your case. This countries that engage in human rights violations calling Amnesty International POV. Human rights have objective universal standards and the record of Christianity is very poor by ANY standard of human rights. This information is being suppressed as POV only, which is an abuse of the notion of neutrality. To suppress sourced criticism is not NPOV. Please make your case if think link is not factually accurate. ] 23:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 14155: 2383: 11565: 3644::::Now, regarding the real Jesus (I mean the one that lived and preached in the 1st century) it is reasonable to look at the sources avaiable. We will get at a "historical Jesus" - this is not identical with the "real Jesus", as the historical craft will not necesarily answer all questions and tell as anything we'd like to know, but at least it will provide a solid basis. The nEw Testament happens to be the best source for the where, when and what of Jesus. I object to dismissing the NT as a sources only to fuill the "void" with speculation. 1593::ANON, are you representing that there are similarities between Christianity and other groups, or that the others were the "ancestor/father" of Christianity. I can support the Greek/Plato connection for early Christain beliefs, but I would strongly resistant that Christianity was the product of the others. Also, what are you defining as Christianity? Is that 4th century Christianity or that taught by Christ? I see a distinction between the two; without any intended offense to our traditional Christians. ] 00:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 2800::::::Frankly, I have some reservations. On one hand, removing the reference to Jesus as the Son of God may not be ideal, as it is a central belief in mainstream Christianity. On the other hand, I don’t currently have a clear alternative to rephrase or rewrite the sentence. Additionally, this phrase does not account for non-trinitarian Christian denominations. I agree that adding a note might be the best solution. I can find or include reliable sources. What key points should we include in the note?. ] (]) 18:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 1469::If the objection stated here was one of lanugage use, and I make the changes addressing the objected language, then this constitutes an agreement I was willing to make. I see no ohter objections stated, so as I could remedy those or discuss them. Therefore the changes I effected were the results of the ostensive agreement from this page. Your quick review is perhaps too quick. My comments are accurate. If not please be specific with other problems that have been stated which have escaped my attention. ] 00:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 11009: 11766: 9288:::As for the Catholic/Orthodox-Prostestant divide on this. Freedom of religion in my book means that the believer is free to pratice his religion as he understands it and hence this definition can be as broad or narrow as he thinks fit (including or not including Church structure). Hence, surpression of the Church is persecution. The French measures also didn't target only the institution - yes, you were not harmed if you kept your mouth shut, but if a believer protested he was targetted as well. ] 14:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 7391:::] aka "Mr Objective" -- As I stated previously, I have no doubt that there has been persecution by Christians of other groups. What I asked for was, rather than an unsupported list, that we come up with sources (see ]) to support those claims. None were offered, which means that inclusion of the list could be ], which is obviously frowned upon at Knowledge. But if you (or ''any'' editor) can provide citations for each of the groups on the lengthy list, then I'd support its inclusion. Thanks...] 12:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 8850::But be that as it may, it has no bearing on our actual conflict. Christians (and yes, nuns are Christians too (and they are not part of the hierarchy)) were persecuted, clergy, layman and religious people killed, their worship supressed, an entire province of France was depopulated. You say they deserved it - that is a monstrous view but you are free to adhere to it (and before my overhaul the Roman persecution section said the same: that Christians deserved it) - but your POV is no basis of excluding this act of persecution. 8631::You are right that the FR was a secular revolt. It also had a totalitaristic approach and wanted to remake France according its ideas (most visible in Saint-Just). Opposing views had no place in the new France. That is the philosophical basis for this persecution (and part of that was the first genocide of modernity, in the Vendee). In France this lingered on way into the 20th century, though never again in the form of long-term direct persecution (the Commune was too short for that and 1905 didn't venture to go that far). 7868::The problem with finding cases of organised persecution by Christians of Athiests is always difficult as they are, by definition, not a single group. If persecution did occur, there is no central office to record it (and keep those records safe) or group of faithful followers to take up the cause. Athiesm is a very old idea but as stated above there were none in the 13th century as they would not have survived. Bearing in mind the diversity of today's belief systems this in itself is telling. ] 10:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 8496:*Does it matter whether the Church was "immoral" or "corrupt" - and I sincerly challenge that observation in this general version, especially in regard to "crimes") and especially not as the reason for the persecution - the Church was not persecuted because of any (alleged) immorality, but because it wasn't in line with the revolutionaries' ideologies - I wouldn't think of sifting through the groups persecuted by Christians and decided who deserved it and who didn't and hence who should be included or not in this article. 3059::Knowledge is not considered a reliable source. The term "pluriform monotheism" is not used in the context of Christianity within the article. If you have credible sources that discuss Christianity in relation to pluriform monotheism, please add them. The concept of Christian monotheism is not a controversial topic among scholars. While some followers of other religions, such as Judaism or Islam, may critique the notion of "Christian monotheism," academic sources generally classify Christianity as a monotheistic religion. 8507:*The sentence, at least according to my understanding or intention, does not say that there was a Europe wide persecution (though some measures were not restricted to France), but it says (or wants to say) that after centuries of Christian dominance, during which there was no persecution of Christians by non-Christians, this phenomenon resurfaced with the French Revolution. The "in Europe" means that it resurfaced in Europe (as opposed to the Islamic world, Japan, China) but it did not resurface everywhere in Europe. 12270: 8433: 1528:::'''''Christianity is a religion that formed in the Roman Empire during . The most common forms of Christianity are based on the teachings and practices of a Roman religious group called a "church" and/or the Bible that was compiled by that church as well as the Jewish Scriptures. A core promulgation of the original religion is that a Jewish man named Jesus, is/was also God (as God's Son), he taught people, he is the Jewish Messiah, and he was crucified and was resurrected bodily from the dead by God.''''' 2106::::::{{talkquote|Yet there is a core of ideas that all New Testament scholars and believers would agree are central to ancient Christian beliefs. One British scholar, James G. Dunn, for example, says they would all agree that “the Risen Jesus is the Ascended Lord.” That is to say, there would have been no faith tradition and no scriptures had not the early believers thought that Jesus was “Risen,” raised from the dead, and, “Ascended,” somehow above the ordinary plane of mortal and temporal experience.}} 12046: 6307::In fact, Constantine was quite uninvolved in any Christmas date. Eastern and Western Churches still disagree on the proper date (25 December or 6 January). The December date was a reference to the winter solistice symbolism. There's nothing Mithraic about it. Both usages of the date go back to the natural fact of the solistice. There are even recent theories that the date was originally Christian and copied by paganism. I don't believe that but it illustrates the difficulties in finding causation. 1781:::Yes, the scholarship clearly backs up my contentions that the mystery cults were the forerunners of the early Christians. This information is suppressed by Christians--but it is true nonetheless. And, I did include references. The “weasle words” (if I understand the the term) were the very things that were said to be required to make my inclusion acceptable and NPOV. Ironic that now they are used to suppress it, yet again. Please tell me which “weasle words” you object to and we can fix them. 7360::Problem, Mr Objective, is that the "Christian sites", as you call them, identify as such, while the "Human rights site" hides behind pretenses of objectivity, declaring alleged facts (and indeed they are mostly quite the opposite of facts) without sources or argument, and basically is nothing more than a statement of bigotry that doesn't even realise that any criticism they might make is only possible because of the influence of Christianity in the first place. ] 11:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 7974::On the contrary, Stalin did target people for various reasons and you cannot always so easily separate the various reasons - politics, econimics, ideology, religion, mere rivalry. Stalin did institute a anti-Jewish campaign late in his life. But if you don't "like" Stalin than take Lenin, who originated a vicious persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church. Compared with him, the later Stalin relented a bit (though of course Stalin had been Lenin's hench man). ] 11:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 10753:"Gnostics believe that they have secret knowledge about God, humanity and the rest of the universe of which the general population was unaware. It became one of the three main belief systems within 1st century Christianity, and was noted for three factors which differed from the two other branches of Christianity: Novel beliefs about Gods, the Bible and the world which differed from those of other Christian groups. Tolerance of different religious beliefs within and outside of Gnosticism. 12334: 6661:::Its ok if there are things which are contenttious among scholars. One need only mention that fact, not exclude it all together, esp. when its vaulable. I'll take a look at the section again and I did see opportunities to make it shorter. Also, state which parts now exist in the seciton that you think is in dispute among scholarship with some citations that show this. That would help and we can make the appropriate language adjustments to reflect that. ] 14:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 11978: 2550: 12763: 10519:"In addition to Gnostic, Jewish, and and Pauline Christianity, there were many other versions of Christianity being taught. Often, there would be a number of conflicting Christianities being propagated within a single city. After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70 CE, the Jewish Christian movement was largely dissipated. Gnostic leaving Pauline and Gnostic Christianity as the dominant groups. Gentiles within the movement took over control of the former movement. 3314::Regarding the much later section about the list of persecutions, it's particularly important to note that the persecution of pagans and Jews was a two-way street for quite a while, especially in Alexandria. The pagans also had a brief 'revival' during the reign of ] during which he tried to favor both pagans and Jews over Christians. If a detailed list of such is necessary, it should include both directions; such detail might be better in a ] or other such sub-article though. ] \ 12002: 11518: 6940::Yes. Frankly, I don't care for the approach it takes. Yes, I believe that Christians have persecuted people. But an unsubstantiated list which contains so many groups...doesn't seem quite fair. I'd like to see either academic support for ''any'' list of that type, or just leave it, and keep up the link to the appropriate articles. I don't see a list, after all, which states that "Christians have been persecuted by Muslims, atheists..." etc. ] 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 4841:“The Essenes were Pythagoreans who encased their pagan religious synthesis, which Jesus absorbed, in a Jewish entegument, which he rejected, although He considered Himself one of the prophets of Yahweh; but he incorporated a definitely Buddhist element, not found among the Essenes. In the Gospel, therefore, we find a synthesis of Osirian-Dionysiac soteriology, Zoroastrian eschatology, Buddhist ethics and renunciation, Pythagorean communism, and the Essenic Parousia. (416-17)” 9352:::Thanks to ] for helping me clarify my point. Yes you are right, my point is that they were targeted for belonging to an institution that had enormous wealth and power - the French RC Church. If they had been non wealthy and non powerful they would have been left alone - I am unaware and can find no records of the organised persecution of Protestants (or any other Christian denominations) during the Revolution - can anyone give examples? For that matter any other religions? 14068: 8254:::''Anglicanism and Lutheranism: This category includes those Communions which contend that they continue to hold the Catholic and Apostolic faith, reformed of Roman "abuses." Hence, they consider themselves to be both Catholic and Protestant. These groups separated from the Roman Catholic Church under the 16th-century influences of the European Continental Reformation, the English Reformation, or both. Also included in this grouping are the Moravians and the Lusitanians.'' 7000:::Suppression of sourced criticism does not make for neutrality. That is absurd. Why are inclusion of facts relevant to the topic not allowed? The only "POV here is the truth--the historical record. Now if you claim that the record itself is bias thats another matter, however it seems you are saying that merely mentioning this record is itself, which puts the church in a non-favorable light is what you object to as "NPOV." That is POV pushing. ] 23:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 12346: 12158: 12246: 3676: 12314: 9226::And no, we don't include Catholics persecuted under Elizabeth etc. here, as they were persecuted by other Christians. Yes, I consider them martyrs of the faith (but that's my Catholic POV), but they can and are included in the "persecution by Christians" section (under "dissenting Christian denominations and denominational strife"). The current distinction between the two section is a bit questionable in that regard, but I guess it's the best way to put it. 11882: 7320: 12686: 11799: 12634: 12407: 11588: 12417: 12386: 12170: 12222: 12022: 10439:::From my readings, I have found that while some of Giovanni's statements are contentious points in scholarship in that they apper to be asserted by a minority of biblical scholars throught the ages (probably because most such specialists have do have a pro-christian bias and a minority are from a secular point of view). But, this is not itself reason to exclude them from here---merely change the language to reflect this. I'll try to do that. 12134: 11202:::True about religoustolerance.org, however I note that like our own very dear site here which is also created by regular folks, I found the information to be reliable, and NPOV--even more so. The good thing is that they cite references, so we can rely on those references, which are valid for Knowledge purposes here. The information you prested from that site, as far as I know, are not diputed among scholars. ] 01:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 10805: 12290: 12058: 11892: 13078: 12110: 3303::Regarding the word "catholic," you have the right definition, but not necessarily the right conclusion drawn from the literal definition. At least some early fathers used the word "catholic" to describe the faith or set of doctrines that they taught, particularly Irenaeus, and to differentiate them from the hodge-podge of various other religions that bore no more similarity to Christianity than to use some of the same names. ] \ 12086: 5848:"Jewish practices", familiarity with the Greek "mystery religions" led the Gnostics to copy their style. Within an inner circle of adepts a secret "higher Wisdom" was passed orally from Master to Initiate. Their claim to authority rested on earlier holy men, apostles and sages, who, it was said, had entrusted arcane knowledge to their favourite disciples, the founders of the gnostic sects, hence being a mystery cult religion. 2955::It would greatly facility discussion if all the anon users would use registered usernames, so that we can address you by name rather than number. (For instance, which anon user is "Giovanni", and how do you know which IP Giovanni used, ]? I honestly can't tell who you think is correct.) It would also help if you would assume good faith and discuss the edits themselves, not your fellow editors. ] 04:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 8286::I agree with KHM, if we cannot call Lutherans Protestants, who is left as Protestant. The only people I know who may object to such a classification are extreme Protestants who think Lutherans too moderate. But that is their POV - the truth is that Lutherans started the Reformation (that is not to say that they were the first Reformers - we have Reformers on either side, before Luther, and also strictly Catholic Reformers) 1917::So, basically, the statement "based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ" is an unsourced faith-statement, which does not adequately summarize the contents of the article. What the article actually says is that Christianity is based on the death of Jesus (that is, life) and ''belief'' in resurrection of Christ (that is, belief), and the subsequent interpretations of the texts (''believed'' to) describe these events. 11476: 7848::Galileo was not the only academic called to account for his work. For example Champillon, whilst excavating in Egypt, had to supress clear archaeological evidence that contradicted Biblical chronology under RC church instructions. Less than 200 years ago, in the church controlled west, no academic could publish evidence that proved the Biblical timeline wrong, without fear of loss of funding or institutional support. 11757: 10011: 5304:: I found a from Paula Fredrikson saying Jesus was not an Essene (or Pharisee, or member of several other groups), and another bit by Jaroslav Pelikan simply discussing his role as a Jewish Rabbi . I still wonder, have you mentioned a citation where Origen or Tertullian connect Christianity with the 'inner mystery' religions favorably? I may well have missed it in the bulk text above. ] 03:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 9447::::Another interesting thought, taken from Edmund Burke. The revolutionaries accused Catholics of intolerance. Burke said that the grand-children of those who had murdered the Hugenots in 1572 (the mob of Paris, directed by the government) now took revenge on behalf of these Hugenots and massacred others who can hardly be blamed for crimes committed 200 years before the were born. ] 17:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 68: 9133::Your example above (the rape) is invalid to this dicussion as we are not talking about a few isolated incidents by individuals but of a national institute, with international backing that possessed great wealth and power and was overthrown. Real crimes were committed against real people but was it because of their Christianity or their association with a wealthy Church that stood by whilst people starved? 1185: 1175::{{not done}} You are using the word "religion" in a non-mainstream meaning. It is not a meaning supported by ]. FYI, Christianity ''is'' a religion. If you want to protest against that, take it to your own blog, or Conservapedia. Here we abide by ]. And, yup, I was once a Bible thumper, but I have never understood Christians who claim to have a relationship with God. ] (]) 21:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC) 5242:::You say he "is largely discredited by mainstream historians" I challenge you to back up your claim, or else withdrawl it. The same goes for those who smeared Gibbon. Also, this particular book of his is not hard to find at all, just out of print. You can get it at Amazon. But, it is well-researched, relevant, interesting information. It is also cited in other similar studies, by other scholars. 12528: 12507: 1139::] is absolutely correct; the theory that "mystery religions" were the roots of Christian doctrines is ''far'' from being a dominant theory. Were they an influence? Probably. But they were not nearly as important as the proposed edit implies. There is also no "pro-Christian" standard being applied; the proposed changes are wholly inaccurate, pure and simple. ] 16:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 10562:"Christendom has not been a unified movement throughout most of its history. With the possible exception of a few years circa 31 CE, from the execution of Jesus to the conversion of Paul, there have always been at least two competing faith groups which seriously, devoutly, thoughtfully and prayerfully believed themselves to be true Christianity. A broad overview of Christian history follows: 13123: 3757:::Again, untrue, and you have failed to make a case for your contentions. I have already cited sources, above. The original had sources, too, with links. Apparently they are simply ignored. Meanwhile you revert the additions, even though they are currently being improved on the main page by many users in accordance with specifics raised here--- and already had the dispute heading. 12538: 14122: 10172:::I disgaree IMHO. Its better on top right after the overview since it flows logically into the chart that shows the origins from Early Christianity, and ties in nicely with my origins of for the ideas of early Christianity. Also, I think is important and one of the most neglected (supressed) elements in understanding Christianity so therefore should be make promiment. 1928::Before we strand in fruitless disucssions: are we going to remedy this shortcoming (a line in the article with sufficient sources), or are we going to discuss the alternative proposal? It's quite simple, of course, to find dosens of sources which say "based on," but that misses the point: what do we, Wikipedians, judge to be really accurate? Compare what ] starts with: 10784: 14284: 14576: 3433: 3093::{{talkquote|Modern scholars have located the focus of this faith tradition in the context of monotheistic religions. Christianity addresses the historical figure of Jesus Christ against the background of, and while seeking to remain faithful to, the experience of one God. It has consistently rejected polytheism and atheism.}} ] (]) 17:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 7797:#It is obvious that the only agenda of this site is to attack Christians - not to present a fair or accurate assessment. In each section something is written only if they can find something bad to say about Christians. If there is a section where they can find nothing bad about Christians, then they just write "N/A". That's not presenting an objective picture. 2017::::Hi, I think all the references that you gave make the same assumptions. I don't agree that one can state as fact that something is based on teachings and events related to a person, when no independent/unbiased evidence exists for much of it. Out-of-date references that simply support the same logical error, don't help. ] (]) 15:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 6003: 5386::That might be the case (though "open minded" is no useful concept here), but it in no way supports what you wrote. Yes, Origen and Clement pointed out similarities (but also differences) to Greek culture and philosophy to make Christianity respectable. In a way, theology in the original sense is Greek philosophy applied to the revealed sources of faith. 11182: 14297:. This highlights the evolution of how Christianity is defined, revealing the different aspects of its identity across various contexts and historical periods. Additionally, the existence of non-trinitarian Christian sects throughout Christian history and theology further complicates and enriches the understanding of what Christianity encompasses. 10399::I agree, especially about the problem of stating ''as fact'' things that are disputed (e.g. "In its early years, there was not one Christianity"). Even if we firmly believe that something is true, it's against Knowledge policy to state it as fact if it's disputed. That may be the hardest part of ] policy to accept. ] ] 00:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 1906::* "In antiquity, two schools of exegesis developed in Alexandria and Antioch. The Alexandrian interpretation, exemplified by Origen, tended to read Scripture allegorically, while the Antiochene interpretation adhered to the literal sense, holding that other meanings (called theoria) could only be accepted if '''based''' on the literal meaning." 8808::As for Christian martyrs. They were generally in the 1st wave of Christians to Europe, when Christianity would have been seen as new and a challenge to the established authorities. Once they had dominance the only widespread persecutions of Christians in Europe, for theological reasons, were by other Christians. ] 08:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 9861:::::Following the appearance of more sockpuppets, I have semi-protected the page, which means that IPs and newly-registered users can't edit. As I said, I don't want to lock out genuine contributors. I'll be going to bed in about twenty minutes from now. Should I unprotect then? Zach, will you still be around? ] ] 01:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 8518:*As for your observation, before I overhauled the persecution section it basically said: "Christians were sometimes persecuted by the Romans, but only because they were stupid, or camp, or deserved, but maybe they weren't even persecuted. Christians however persecuted a lot, all the time, ending with a bogus list." - You didn't speak up then. 2845:::::::I wanted to share a side note: I find this discussion quite intriguing. I hadn’t realized that defining Christianity in a single sentence could be so challenging. What I previously understood about the concept has now become a topic of debate. While reading the Encyclopedia Britannica, I came across a paragraph that caught my attention: 8861::You are right about persecution of Christians by Christians, but that it why I wrote resurfaced: Christians were persecuted by the pagan state until 324. After that they were only "intra-Christian persecutions" (except in Persian or Islamic territory) until the French Revolution, which again had a non-Christian state persecuting Christians. 4790:"John the Baptist, Saint." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2006. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. 20 Jan. 2006 You yelling there is no historical evidence doesnt make it so. Can you site a respected source that makes such a false clai as you contend? As for supporting my claims, that is easy do do and refutes your innacurate statments here. 11093:::Kaufmann may be a very well respected scholar of Judaism...I've no idea. But that doesn't make him an authority on Christian history. Can you cite some more mainstream, acknowledged experts? If the perspective is as accurate and as prevalent and as accepted as you claim, that couldn't be too difficult. ] 01:56, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 6085: 1994:::The "life and teachings" were created ''after'' his death; the central point, the belief that he was raised from (the) death and is the Messiah, is, per definition not part of his ''life''. And this "info" is still not part of the article, nor an adequate definition of what Christianity is. Regards, ] - ] 15:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 8412: 3407:"There is much speculation that Christian beliefs were influenced by Mithraism which was assimilated by state-sponsored Christianity before being diposed of in name. According to Martin A. Larson, in The Story of Christian Origins (1977), Mithraism and Christianity derived from the same sources, originally from the savior cult of ]." 1795: 10205:::That is true. I gave references for this. They did emerge. Fact. They emerged out of different influences. Fact. Some of these influences were the various mystery teachings. Fact according to most scholars. I'll concede to a language change here to reflect that we are not sure 100%, such as the word "may have been, or probably." 6591: 3842: 10227:::Fact. This is really undisputed as far as I know, except from dogmatic faith which is blind to facts anyway. They insist there was only one "true" Christianity and all others are not really Christians. This is pure POV and has no place here. See Mika's comments below that quotes from some of the sources I have used and cited. 9374:::For this to stand on the ] page rather than the ] page it must be shown that they were persecuted for being Christians rather than the unfortunate victims of a backlash against an institution the taught poverty and humility yet wealded enormous wealth and power. An institution that had not granted religious freedom to others. 6023::Sure Christians were not the only one. No one claimed that. Mystery cults certainly are an interesting subject, but what is contentious here is the extreme claim that "Christianity began existing as a variety of mystery cults". Practically every word in this sentence is contentious on its own and utterly false when combined. 10866:(see above) and made those changes. If there are other and further issues, we can iron those out as well. This history and origins section, as it stands now, I think is very well done, in no small part thanks to the very critics who probably rather not see any such topic explicated at all. hehe ] 10:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 8297::As for Anglicans: they started (if we take Edward or Elizabeth) as a Protestant Church, but later though about a via media developed and in the 19th Century Anglo-CAtholicism emerged. You may include a note to Anglicanism that states that it is not solely Protestant, but that doesn't mean it should form a group of its own. 9363::::That is all beside the point. There was a persecution of Christians (namely RCs, Protestants were not avaiable "thanks" to Louis XIV), even under an explicite anti-Christian banner. Other religions don't matter either. Or are you saying that Nero did not persecute Christians because he did not persecute the Jews either. 10602: 11276::::No, you semi-protected it perfectly, and since they are still around, I'd say it wouldn't hurt to leave it with SEMI for now. You can see some discussion of the "Protected message" ] (near bottom) or ]. Hope this helps. --] ^{<font color="#3D9140">]</font>} 15:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 10150:::Yes, I originally only stated the Hewebrew Bible, but this change was made in response to an objection by Wesley. It fits in very well with starting my section of the origins since Judiasm comprises the bulk of the influences of the early Christians, infact it was little more than just a Jewish sect(s) for some time. 7675:*When was there any large scale persecution of Atheists or Deists by Christian? Granted, an Atheist would have been persecuted in the 13th century, if taken seriously, but there were no atheists around. To have persecution we need a potential persecutor and and a potential persecutee at the same place at the same time. 9277:::In fact that's somethin a left-wing politician in the 1905 separation hearings argued: "In France we guarantee freedom of conscience, but not freedom of religion. Someone may believe what he likes, but he is not guaranteed adherence to a certain corporation." (Paraphrased from memory) That's preposterous, of course. 8223: 10920:::Thanks, I’ll work on addressing this point. Its better if you leave it on the main page so that others can have a chance at editing with improvements in the grammer. No sense to keep taking it down each time so in effect im the only one working on it. Putting the POV tag is good enough; we should avoid reverts. 3571::In the last paragraph of the introduction, there is a mention of the growth of Christianity in Asia and Africa. This discussion could be moved to this paragraph, as it aligns more consistently with its focus, compared to the previous paragraph, which concentrated on the forms of Eastern and Western Christianity. 8976:::The Enlightenment was a movement in the whole of Europe and some traits are common to every country but only in France did it have such a distinct anti-Christian bent (Emperor Joseph II and the Bavarian minister Montgelas were giving the Church a hard time too, but it didn't result in outright persecution). 13643:"In antiquity, two schools of exegesis developed in Alexandria and Antioch. The Alexandrian interpretation, exemplified by Origen, tended to read Scripture allegorically, while the Antiochene interpretation adhered to the literal sense, holding that other meanings (called theoria) could only be accepted if 9153::My point is that their Christianity was incidental to their persecution, they were persecuted for belonging to a powerful institution. I would not (and have never attempted to) argue with their place on the RC wiki page but that it is unrepresentative to put this on the all encompassing Christianity page. 6185::He was, as all Emperors before him, head of the Roman state cult. Since Aurelian there was also the cult of "Sol invictus", which can be described as a slimmed down version of Mithras. But how do these official functions (which were more or less dropped in the following years) have to do with Christianity. 5868::That is all true for the Gnostics. Whether they should be considered a Christian heresy or some pre-Christian religion putting on Christian clothes is debated. But nonetheless they were fought by the Church and denounced as unchristian. And Christianity as we have it is what came to us through the Church. 7247: 2538: 1312::I can follow ]'s reasoning, but if somebody can find something suitable, it would be good to have a ] picture showing the incarnation/birth of Jesus, crucifixion and resurrection, to depict the main aspects of Christianity in a single image at the head of the page. ] (]) 05:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 14121: 13697: 13664: 10963: 10908: 10010: 8411: 8265: 7246: 6537: 6084: 5899: 5581: 3829: 2922: 2585: 2537: 2513: 2382: 14463: 14289: 14277: 13307: 11008: 10804: 10601: 8714: 8693: 6002: 5560: 3675: 2786: 2561: 2501: 2370: 1459: 14623: 14225: 14067: 13540: 10865: 10621: 10530: 9508: 9467: 9072: 9051: 8672: 7888: 7319: 6640: 5961: 5262: 5172: 3841: 2549: 2525: 1184: 14567: 14543: 13342: 9632: 8170: 7432: 6327: 5847: 5417: 2573: 2489: 2465: 2453: 648: 14571: 14154: 13573: 11181: 10783: 8432: 7298: 7185: 6701: 5920: 3397: 3068: 2441: 1255: 882: 10931: 7411: 6808: 6474: 5365: 5283: 4965: 3545: 569: 14575: 14454: 14283: 13837: 11242: 10581: 9308:::The use of Nero persecuting the Christians is interesting as Nero had power and an army at his disposal and the Christians had neither wealth nor power. Their religious beliefs were a direct challenge to his status as a god like emperor and historical records show they were persecuted by him. 8222: 3432: 1503: 1104: 13783: 13237: 7102: 1851::Let's start with {{tq|that Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus is what most reliable sources say}}: which sources? The statement in the lead is unsoutced, and the body of the article does not (seem to) contain such a statement. What is does contain is the following (emphasis mine): 6724:::The list was flawed, as some groups were not persecuted by Christians at all, some to no large extent and some were pseudo-groups. And not of those that were persecuted by Christians were persecuted by the Catholic Church or specifically by the Catholic Church. ] 18:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 5704: 5499: 3371: 6590: 5324: 2394: 2095::::::"Death" is missing from the statement in the lead sentence; EB says "Jesus of Nazareth," not "Jesus Christ': Nazareth may be kind of historical, but "Christ" is a matter of faith. After this short statement follows a long explanation about the problems of defining Christianity, and then: 8014: 7909: 2477: 1794: 3716: 14149: 3797:::But, again, I will cite my sources, which would suffice alone, but on top of that I'll include dozens of other sources which support these claims. And, I will re-insert the section so that it can continue to be improved by myself and others, and keep the NPOV tag until this is settled. 3361: 13832:"Death" is missing from the statement in the lead sentence; EB says "Jesus of Nazareth," not "Jesus Christ': Nazareth may be kind of historical, but "Christ" is a matter of faith. After this short statement follows a long explanation about the problems of defining Christianity, and then: 8600::My personal view is that the persecution section is so contentious here, and we have at least two other articles which deal with the subject, so if ''anything'' there is challenged, best to get rid of it, whether it's favorable or opposed to Christianity. ] 12:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 2227:::::I have removed the statement; the ] summarizes the article, which is not the case here, nor does it adequately reflect those, but is ] ; and it also isn't an adequate definition of what Christianity is, in contrast to the line that I moved upwards. ] - ] 15:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 6766: 10721: 5622: 5745: 5479::Yes, I would deny that. Yes, Christian congegrations existed apart from one another and hence there were some differences. There were also other groups who claimed Christ and held various doctrines, e.g. the Gnostics but then it's the issue how broad Christianity should be defined. 4821::::The Essene-Christian Faith (1989, 273 pp.) by Larson is a thorough and scholarly review of the development of the Essene movement within Judaism, of the Teacher of Righteousness (ca. 95 - ca. 69 B.C.), and of his close parallel, Jesus, who he is states is also probably an Essene. 14544: 10106:::No, but its common practice to mention the scolarly discussion regarding the subject matter, not to argue theories (I dont do that). To exclude this subject matter is POV. Only the Christian churces and their advocates want to exclude this topic, and have done so historically. 6105::You are right about the writers, but not "many writings of this period, however, succumbed to destruction from the Early Catholic Church as heretical" - the most of what is lost was just lost and not intentionally destroyed. Origen, yes, was frowned upon, but you can't generalize. 13702: 13652: 8735: 7889: 5500: 5345::The Essenes are no mystery cult and any influence on Christianity (sure various Jewish sects influenced each other) mut be before the year 66. And remember, you did not claim "influence" but you claimed "may have existed as a variety of mystery cults" (in the newest version). 4748::::1. ] specifically states "Knowledge articles should not use other Knowledge articles as sources. Wikilinks are not a substitute for sources." In other words, Giovanni cannot use WP articles to back up his assertions, although he can use sources cited in other articles. 2406: 1939::{{talkquote|Christianity originated with the ministry of Jesus, a Jewish teacher and healer who was crucified and died c. AD 30–33 in Jerusalem in the Roman province of Judea. Afterwards, his followers, a set of apocalyptic Jews, proclaimed him risen from the dead.}} 13238: 5962: 5602::Believers coming from a Greek background, such as Justin Martyr, used their intellectual heritage to explain the faith. The result is theology. It is utterly inadequate to put this into a narrow X vs. Y framework. Christians didn't become pagans by doing theology. 2562: 10249:::Ok, i agree here. I think this should be changed. Instead of saying existed as, it should state that it emerged along side and with "a vareity of mystery cults," many of which converted into Christitans and helped to influence its developing ideas and practices." 9073: 6787: 5705: 5806: 9529::I never said that the RCC in France (or anywhere) was spotless (though it was Louis XIV who kicked out the Hugenots, rightly considering such a move to be popular (so no protests) but also increasingly interfered into Church matters (Jesuits, Jansenists etc). 139: 6348::Note, you just said "alleged by some scholars to have had use as" and then you turn it into "we can see the effect of Mithranism on Christianity directly". How about XP being the initial letters of XPISTOS? Too absurd a theory? ] 13:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 14563: 9031:::I agree with you presenting information in a balanced way and I certainly could imagine including the FR passage in a ranting/POV way. But this is unacceptable here on WP or elsewhere and I don't think that I have done this. ] 10:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 7613::Animists (unless subsumed under "pagans"), Zoroastrians; worshippers of Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Norse and Celtic gods (unless subsumed under pagans); Manichaeans, Gnostics and other Dualists (unless subsumed under "so-called "Heretics""); proto-scientists. 9215::No doubt the revolutionaries were exploiting the dire need of the populace but what did persecution and genocide help in that respect (yes, those killed no longer starve, but ...), especially since the starving and the persecuted might be the same people. 9173::Allowing loose and questionable definitions of persecution to stand will benefit nobody as everyone with a horror story will feel thay can add to the list. This is obviously an emotive subject so NPOV is all the more needed.] 10:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 1256: 10845:::I request unprotection so I can continue to make edits here. I have before but I was doing so without registering my own account. Thanks. ] 05:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC) This can be verfied by looking at my ip address ] 05:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC) Mika 9969: 2502: 7206::Also, ], your recent edit summary claimed "rv vandalism/suppression of agreed changes in talk page"...but there was no vandalism and no agreed changes on the talk page. Please watch your summaries for accuracy. Thanks...] 00:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 2900::::::{{talkquote|The doctrine of the Trinity is not universally accepted among Christians. Nontrinitarian Christian groups include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses.}} ] (]) 19:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 14294: 5458: 3817: 10139:*"The early Christians heavily relied on the Koine Greek Alexandrine text of the Hebrew Bible commonly refered to in the west as the Septuagint." is a true statement but no way to start the history section. I even doubt it needs to be included at all. 60: 6506:::::To be true to what you said earlier about paganisation and de-judification you would have to consider those that didn't think a "flesh and blood Jesus ... offensive" as closer to the original. But somehow you don't. ] 13:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 10499:"Historians speak of many Christian faith groups teaching conflicting views of Jesus, God, morality, religious obligations, etc. Men and women led house churches. No central authority existed; the congregations were almost completely decentralized." 10271:::Fact with greater clarifcation needed, perhapds. Since there was no one Christianity there was no one central chuch heiarchy to consolidate ideas and dinfine itself clearly. This happened in the 4th century. Before then it was very decentralized. 3282: 13674: 8453: 2923: 9009:::As for resurfacing: the FR set the model for modern-day persecutions, either attempted (Commune) or implemented (Lenin). Ideas of religious tolerance, also furthered by the Enlightenment, mostly kept these urges in check, but it did set a model. 6641: 2777:::::{{yo|Durziil89}} remove "Son of God," rewrite the sentence, or add a short note which could be used at multiple places. The third option is the best, I think; would you have a source for such an explanation? ] - ] 16:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 13574: 1299:], your recent edit summary claimed "rv vandalism/suppression of agreed changes in talk page"...but there was no vandalism and no agreed changes on the talk page. Please watch your summaries for accuracy. Thanks...] 00:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 9591: 6205: 1983:::{{talkquote|Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified.}} 5017:::And in regard to Essenes, I have run into a disagreement on another article, and from what I hear (I haven't yet been able to look into it) this article is not quite up to standard. Certainly the passage Giovanni quoted is at least very POV. 8642::But the objective of my edit was not to discuss this all in breadth but to state that persecution of Christians after a long hiatus reappeared in the French Revolution (and later persecutions by totalitarian states all follow this model). 2172::::::{{talkquote|The religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices. It originated among the Jewish followers of Jesus of Nazareth, who believed that he was the promised Messiah (or ‘Christ’)}} 2283::::::{{talkquote|Christianity is an ] ] ] centered on the ], ], ], and ] of ], as narrated in the ]. Most Christians believe that ] is the ], whose coming as the ] was ] in the ] (called the ] in Christianity) and chronicled in the ].}} 5213:::Incidentally, in doing some research, Larson's book (which is hard to find nowadays) is largely discredited by mainstream historians. Not a very authoritative or well thought of source for information. ] 12:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 5173: 3655::::I not with gladnesss, Giovanni, that you intend no disrespect and I believe you. I just wanted to point this out. I agree, that the issues of the "historical Jesus" need not be discussed in our context. ] 11:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 14371: 1840::As a starter, "Jesus '''Christ'''" is, of course, a statement of faith, not a statement of historical fact. But that, an sich, is a mute point to discuss, though rhetorically relevant with regard to the comment of "a good deal of ]." 828:{{Press | subject = article | title = Topics that spark Knowledge 'edit wars' revealed | org = ] | url = http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23354613 | date = 18 July 2013 | archiveurl = | archivedate = | accessdate = 18 July 2013 }} 7226:::Wiping out work of agreed changes from the talk page, without justification or any participatin on the talk page, despite notice, and over and over is a vandalism. My summary is accurate. 64.121.40.153 00:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 6809: 9488::Sophia, I am sorry if you feel attacked, but I must remind you that you suggested that opposition to your view was based on "religious loyalties of the editors which is POV". Let me assure you that nothing was intended personally. 8117::::You admit that Lutherans and Anglicans are "Protestant of Rome", and yet you tried to move them ''out'' of the Protestant category? How does that make any sense? In any event, my copy of ''Concise Oxford'' defines Protestant as: 14455: 8589::I personally don't know much about the persecution of Christians during the French Revolution, though I've always thought that was a very "secular" revolt, if not altogether atheist. I may be wrong of course, and plead ignorance. 2454: 11637: 6286: 6043: 5263: 2478: 1661::::since critical Bible studies have extensively argued, for a long time, that the Gospels contain almost no reliable info on the life of Jesus, except for his baptism and crucifixion. Both are also in line with (emphasis mone) 9753: 6920::I think that's what KHM03 is saying... provide a "good academic reference" for the list... then it might be okay. Also, see ]. --] ^{<font color="#3D9140">]</font>} 21:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 2250::::::{{yo|Joshua Jonathan}}, not all Christian denominations believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Some, like the Unitarian and Mormon churches, are non-trinitarian and still considered part of the broader Christian tradition. 9733::That argument only works if a) Catholics are not Christians (which you didn't subscribe to) or b) one set of Christians persecuted another set of Christians and hence the issue was not Christianity. Neither is the case here. 10293:*"Most scholarship believes these to included the Nasseni, ],], ], ]" - now, I don't know the Nasseni, but the Essenes were no mystery cult at all, the Gnostics are they one you are talking about and Dionysus is a pagan god. 11265:::Thanks, LV. Should I unprotect in the meantime? I don't want to lock out genuine contributors? And I note that he/she has moved (again) to ]. I've done a lot of indefinite blocks recently! ] ] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 6475: 5048:::::I will be a able to address all these points later today, and further make changes to the language to reflect consensus. Sorry, I've been a little too busy to take care of this yesterday.] 23:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 1672::::{{talkquote|Christians '''believe''' that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Hebrew Bible (called the Old Testament in Christianity) and chronicled in the New Testament.}} 11254::No, you are right, it is a software bug. It is in the process of being fixed. I'll see if I can find the bugzilla query. --] ^{<font color="#3D9140">]</font>} 15:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 1366::Wiping out work of agreed changes from the talk page, without justification or any participatin on the talk page, despite notice, and over and over is a vandalism. My summary is accurate. ] 00:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 13484: 6569: 1818::Perfectly fine, that you reverted, and to discuss this. To keep discussions clear, I propose to concentrate here on "based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ," and discuss "monotheistic" in another (sub)section. 13744: 11104:::Also, the entire article may not be too lengthy, but this ''section'' is a brief overview, pointing the reader to the History article, where these ideas have more room for development. ] 02:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 7664:*"proto-scientists" are no group and the alleged cases are mostly spurious or better subsumed under either heretic or witch. It boils down to one case: Gallilei, who was neither proto or warrants a note all by himself. 5284: 8150::::You can't just make words mean whatever you want them to mean. This word has a clear definition and is in common usage. Any attempt to implicitly change that invariably violates ]. --] 06:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 14554: 13555: 13360: 13313: 5879::Ah, and "Many early Christians migrated to Rome" - yes, but many early Christians already were in Rome ... and they reacted sooner (Valentinus) or later (Marcion) to these heresiarchs ... and not in a positive way. 5827::Belief in Jesus widespread before Jesus? Concepts in mystery cults and in Christianity are incompatible, these other "sacrificial lambs" were never historical person. And your clear evidence is contentious at best. 2787: 1550:::Note also, that I say "promulgation", because no proof exists that the Church leaders generally believed what they taught about Jesus (and in fact, clues to the contrary exist, e.g. Roman common ground religion). 14444: 13789: 13872: 8350: 11439: 10419:::Hi. This is Mika, and I disagree. I have been following with some interst Giovanni's arguments, and looking up his references. I've been reading and learning a lot and wish to thank him for his contributions. 8756: 5663: 9385::::Sorry, but your bias shows through your comments. All these things are beside the point. After centuries we had a non-Christian state persecuting Christians under the banner of "dechristianisation". Period. 13564: 9774::I am saddened that it ends this way but I can't help it. Believe me some of the things you said were not very gentle either, be it to other editors or to Christians in general. ] 19:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 5325: 3442: 13593: 9805: 7493: 4500: 2574: 13351: 8066::Apparently the Anglicans agree, since the full name of their church in the United States appears to be the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America]. --] 06:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 1862::* "The four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John describe Jesus's '''life and teachings''', with the Old Testament as the gospels' respected background. (this is in the lead, not the body) 13343: 9319::::Nero persecuted Christians in Rome as a scapegoat to remove any rumours that he had set Rome on fire, and not because they denied him worship. Of course, that didn't increase his sympathy for them. 7473: 14226: 9113::Do I take it that you are advocating the repression of medieval Catholics in England should be added to the list of persecutions against Christianity even though it was committed by other Christians? 13962:, not all Christian denominations believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Some, like the Unitarian and Mormon churches, are non-trinitarian and still considered part of the broader Christian tradition. 8715: 7963:::I think the big difference here is that Stalin didn't target people on the basis of their religion or lack thereof. He targeted people on the basis of their politics. ] 06:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 7031::It's a POV, unbalanced, inaccurate link. You're acting as if it's unbiased historic fact. There are many valid critiques of Christianity; this link isn't worthwhile. ] 23:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 6889: 14325: 13182: 7952::Stalin would be the outstanding example. Up to 100 million Russians died either directly or indirectly due to his actions or policies. Many of these were Christians. ]] 10:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 2194:::::Ergo: this doesn't suffice; none of the four problems are adressed by this. Please try better, and not by simplistically trowing in more sources. Compare what our article actually '' does'' say: 13601:" is, of course, a statement of faith, not a statement of historical fact. But that, an sich, is a mute point to discuss, though rhetorically relevant with regard to the comment of "a good deal of 6266::Nonsense. Sol invictus was no "main competitor" - it was Aurelian's attempt to create such unity through a slimmed down Mithras. But it did not yield success. And differences needed no mitigation. 649: 5438::Read the New Testament (Matthew, letters to Timotheus, to Titus), read the letter of Saint Ignatius. The church hierarchy is clearly visible throughout the second and especially the 3rd century. 13838: 13178: 7123:::Yes, the double-standard is glaring. Pro-religious links are allowed to stand, which are clearly POV, yet nothing that could pur the church in a negative light. ] 00:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 3611::::That, Giovanni, is one of the problems often encountered in such discussions. YOu say the Bible is a book of faith, and you are right: it is. But it is also a historical work in two senses: 14293: 15: 14208: 8965:::The revolution was in fact a boundle of revolutions: a rebellion of starving masses in Paris, a crisis of the political system, and some ideologists making the best of it for their cause. 8694: 1716:::::"'''''...venerating Jesus Christ...'''''" assumes Messiah, suggest along lines of: "'''''...venerating a man named Jesus as the Jewish Messiah as well as the redeemer of mankind...'''''" 4954: 10679: 8578::First of all, ], please read ]. Our Roman Catholic sisters and brothers - at least on this article - are fine editors who do good work. So let's give them the benefit of the doubt here. 14707: 13173: 11051:::It is a very brief overview only. I’ve checked the other languages article on Christianity and this is of comparable length. This is ont too lengthy, esp. considering its illumination. 8998:::Of course, the reasons for the persecution were not entirely religious, but a bundle of religious, policial, economic, social issues, but the same can be said for earlier persecutions. 7766: 11243: 10710: 9237::And finally, I don't think it is a loose definition of persecution. Mutatis mutandis, there was persecution of Christians by the state in 303 and in 1793. ] 11:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 9093: 435:<div style="background-color: #f0f0ff; border: 1px solid #333 ; padding: 5px; width: 800px;">'''Archived discussions ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]'''''</div> 14682: 13612:: which sources? The statement in the lead is unsoutced, and the body of the article does not (seem to) contain such a statement. What is does contain is the following (emphasis mine): 2514: 8128:::::''n.'' '''1''' a member or follower of any of the western Christian Churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church in accordance with the principles of the Reformation. 5582: 6869::If you wish to include the list, can you give a specific academic citation to support it? Newspaper article, book, etc.; please let us know. Thanks...] 20:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1873::* "While Christians worldwide share basic convictions, there are differences of interpretations and opinions of the Bible and sacred traditions on which Christianity is '''based'''." 11040: 6960:::Can we also agree that the link labelled "The record of the Christian Churches in the development of Human Rights" has no place in a neutral article. ] 22:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1827:::About citing sources---I did. Notice that each of the mytery cults I listed links to Wiki, and each of the respective articles substanciates the point. But, I’ll list them here: 4881: 3862: 1895::* "Scripture readings are drawn from the Old and New Testaments, but especially the gospels. Instruction is given '''based''' on these readings, in the form of a sermon or homily." 13883: 3622::::1) it gives the history of the people of Israel (of course seen from their perspective and through the lens of faith - and not all books of the Bible are concerned with history) 13494: 11578: 6526: 4016: 2989::::I worked on the entry to address all of your points, Wesley. Let me know if you have any other objections. Btw, Giovanni lists his name above and is .40.153 My name is Mika. 14747: 12036: 10348:::Not exclusively Gnostic, at all. I touched on all the influences that scholarship is thinks to have played a role in the development of Chrisitian ideas, and I state as much. 9396:::I voice my original concerns that the lack of perspective shown in this discussion is due to the religious loyalties of the editors which is POV.] 16:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 8872::Facts are facts. You can chant "They deserved it, they deserved it!" all day long in front of your mirror, but that shouldn't govern our article. ] 08:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 3633::::2) it is a historical source just like other sources. Of course we need to do Quellenkitik but I object to any singeling out of the Biblöe as something different or inferior. 8266: 3593::{{talkquote|Christianity is growing in ] and ], the world's most populous continents, resulting in a ] of Christian forms and practices.}} ] (]) 16:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 14677: 14017: 1434: 14912: 14897: 12304: 9673: 4943: 3906: 14697: 14550: 13551: 13356: 13309: 10031::Maybe "...came to prominence"? I think that "importance" is a little too subjective a word, "prominence" is easier to document and verify. ] 01:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 7941: 14440: 13785: 10073:*This is the general article on Christianity with a short historical overview. It should give a brief overview of the history of Christianity from the origins until now. 9883:::::::I'll try to be here, but I am also watching ] (my baby is on the front page). ] <small>^{] ]}</small> 01:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 8391: 7633: 9916: 6713::My reason for deleting the list was simply that it was a lot of accusations with no citation whatsoever...just an unsubstantiated list. ] 18:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 14902: 14712: 13622:"While Christians worldwide share basic convictions, there are differences of interpretations and opinions of the Bible and sacred traditions on which Christianity is 13206: 11433: 10117:*The conflict with Islam is a most important feature for world history in general and for the history of Christianity in particular. There's absolutely no removing it. 4912: 3884: 14927: 12364: 9693::No, no. We had destruction of monasteries, confiscation and desecration of basilicas, killings of clerics, religious, laypeople, ... and the genocide in the Vendee. 13223: 2205:::::{{talkquote|Christians consider the resurrection of Jesus to be the cornerstone of their faith (see 1 Corinthians 15) and the most important event in history.}} 14742: 9850::::Should I semi-protect the page? I'm going to bed in the next few minutes, and I don't want to lock out good-faith contributors? ] ] 00:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 7071::Any academic citations? Or just a flawed website? Please cite your claims, and then we can proceed with the discussion...thanks...] 23:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 14732: 12255: 11849: 10641: 10315:*You are confusing the conflict of early Christianity with Gnosticism etc. (2nd and 3rd century) with the time of Christianity's legalization and establishment. 2084::::::{{talkquote|Christianity, major religion stemming from the life, teachings, and '''death''' of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God)}} 122: 14932: 14917: 14892: 14882: 14822: 12188: 12011: 11813: 3536:{{yo|Remsense}} do you know another way to mention 'southern' Christianity with regard to the cultural diversity? Regards, ] - ] 12:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 11948: 1265:::: I did not claim POV. I claimed unsourced accusations and wiggle words, both of which are significantly different from POV. ] 00:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 14867: 14667: 12260: 12207: 11841: 5982::There are scholarly works and debate on a influence of Christianity by mystery cults and vice versa. But what you claim as consensus is an extreme position. 5540: 11991: 11694: 10095: 5099: 2466: 8673:"resurfaced" implies that Europe was previously anti Christian. The ] states that it was ] (ie anti RC) not anti Christian. ] 12:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 14837: 14827: 14792: 13106: 12212: 12124: 11986: 11809: 8987:::As I said before, my edits don't want to say that there was persecution all over Europe - and Ann, whom I asked to have a look, agreed with my wording. 14387: 14080: 12612: 3137:::Zoroastrianism:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "holy spirit" : "source of life",&nbsp; "emanates" 14922: 14907: 14777: 12299: 12100: 11857: 7573::Jews; Moslems; Pagans; Cathars; so called "Heretics"; Schismatics; Apostates; Humanists, Pantheists, Deists, Atheists and others; so called "Witches" 5130: 12489: 8191::::: I think you have POV "issues" about this and that your complaints have to do with your biases. I don't think you ought to be a Knowledge editor. 1884::* "Among Christian beliefs, the death and resurrection of Jesus are two core events on which much of Christian doctrine and theology is '''based'''." 13195: 11594: 4049: 13559: 13317: 9839:::There are two socks already blocked, expect more to show up. ] <small>^{] ]}</small> 00:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 6226::True, but nothing sinister here. Why did he choose Christianity to create unity ... and why did he stick with it despite the rising Arian conflict? 14967: 14797: 14752: 13726: 9551::Even a backlash persecution is persecution. Should we say there was no persecution of pagan cults after the 4th century because it was a backlash. 14113: 13892: 13511: 11725: 11608: 97: 14887: 14817: 14782: 14737: 13934: 13909: 13793: 7653:*Zoroastrians have absolutely no place in here, as there has been no persecution (even if for lack of oppurtunity) of Zoroastrians by Christians. 7553: 1400: 1198:::I refuse to let your God mutilate my use of the English language by random capitalization and misuse of words. ] (]) 01:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 14862: 13587: 13068: 12359: 12323: 11865: 11861: 11656: 3104:::Hi, perhaps the '''''significance''''' of monotheistic belief must be defined. Otherwise, we are simply using terminology that lacks meaning. 13364: 13332: 3477: 2139::::::{{talkquote|The death of Jesus Christ by crucifixion, together with bhis resurrection from the dead, lies at the heart of Christianity.}} 14722: 11938: 10986: 7533: 2339::You can use the term "narrated"; I have no objections to that. Thank you for the productive discussion. ] (]) 17:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 14852: 14832: 14807: 14787: 14762: 14727: 14475: 12236: 12148: 12076: 10368: 7103: 14877: 14772: 14672: 12183: 12031: 11837: 11817: 10379:::Your welcome, and yes, I'll consider the problems of form and address those in my lastest edits. ] 08:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni 5941::Very nice "free spirited gnostics" vs. the blind faith. I never knew that faith was blind. Or that wild speculations were a good thing. 5397::BTW. Origen was branded a heretic not for those things you mention here, and in fact this verdict became universal only centuries later. 4512: 1606::::{{talkquote|'''Christianity''' is an ] ] ] venerating ] as the ] or ] of mankind, exemplified in his ] and ] as described in the ].}} 90: 14962: 14937: 12602: 12566: 11770: 11365: 2361:{{u|Joshua Jonathan}} I’ve changed the term to "narrated." I hope this improves the text. Thank you.] (]) 17:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13629:"Among Christian beliefs, the death and resurrection of Jesus are two core events on which much of Christian doctrine and theology is 8828::Sophia, even if your accusations were true in general, it still doesn't justify persecution and it doesn't justify leaving them out. 28: 14972: 14947: 14857: 14812: 14767: 14692: 13114: 12479: 12443: 10326:::Nope, I'm not confusing it, im connecting the struggle with its absorbtion. The two, as I have argued, are not mutually exclusive. 9653::Where did you get the idea from that we don't mention this in the article. Have you read the second part of the persecution section. 8912:::Challenges to your POV are not accusations and it is worrying that you see this debate in that light.] 10:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 6246: 5520::Sure there were influences - but they go both ways: one can emphasize similarities or differences. But that is not what you claimed. 5006:::JHC, I agree with you on the use of Knowledge articles. Another WP article might be just as flawed as Giovanni thinks this here is. 13754: 12700: 6746::KHM03, if got three words for you: Soft! Ware! Bug! I am sorry about that and have repaired the bug. ] 19:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 4644: 12119: 11829: 11547: 7706: 4986: 4622: 10183: 9407::::Why is it that you can't the facts as they stand. I suspect it has do with bias of another kind. ] 17:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 6829: 14702: 12279: 12095: 11914: 11853: 11825: 4578: 12741: 3939: 69: 14952: 14872: 14717: 5786:::Quite true (though I personally am not in total agreement with the "Great Ox" on this point). ] 13:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 14558: 14847: 14802: 14757: 14448: 14364: 14126: 11371: 1539:::Could also add notes about various Biblical interpretations and churches that have diversified from the early Roman Church. 157: 8954:::I don't need to read the Wiki page on the FR (except for editing purposes) as this historian knows the issues well enough. 14842: 13855: 13770: 13348: 13202: 12574: 12451: 11454: 11330: 4534: 168: 13142:. And, yup, I was once a Bible thumper, but I have never understood Christians who claim to have a relationship with God. 7143::: It's not necessary to resort to a POV complaint to remove the heretication link. Check out ], especially ]. To quote: 2117::::::That's quite close to what I proposed, and a better 'formula' than "based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ." 130: 14957: 13302: 13186: 11421: 10238:*"may have existed as a variety of mystery cults, limited to a small number of people and expounding esoteric teachings." 10084:::Excatly what my contributions do. Its a very very brief touching on the historical origins of the beliefs and practices 172: 10337: 7686:*When was there any large scale persecution of Muslims by Christians (apart from the expulsion of the Moors from Spain)? 1504: 86: 14942: 13981: 13408: 11905: 11804: 11574: 11483: 11316: 2754::::How could the sentence be revised to provide a more comprehensive understanding? ] (]) 15:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 146: 14652: 14423: 14402: 14336: 14272: 14235: 14220: 14184: 14167: 14138: 14095: 14046: 13843: 12231: 12143: 12071: 11845: 11833: 11821: 10582: 134: 14617: 13275: 11492: 6125: 13151: 12570: 12447: 11496: 4038: 3148:::Roman Christianity:&nbsp; "holy spirit" : "giver of life",&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "proceeds" 13922:; and it also isn't an adequate definition of what Christianity is, in contrast to the line that I moved upwards. 13719: 13692: 11577:. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check 3082::For example, you can refer to the article on Christianity in the Encyclopedia Britannica for further information: 14687: 14593: 14458: 13758:. And this "info" is still not part of the article, nor an adequate definition of what Christianity is. Regards, 13210: 12776: 12578: 12551: 12512: 12351: 11385: 13636:"Scripture readings are drawn from the Old and New Testaments, but especially the gospels. Instruction is given 11564: 8538: 4633: 359:|action1link=Knowledge:Historical archive/Refreshing brilliant prose - History and religion#Religion and beliefs 14306: 13732: 13156: 12455: 12431: 12391: 11390: 11306: 8777: 14431: 13232: 13138: 11415: 10260:*"The basic church hierarchy did not fully establish itself until perhaps as late as the 4th century with ..." 10128:::The most important feature? Wow. What makes it so important? If you want to keep it I'm fine with with that. 3181:::"''While Christians view their worship of a trinity as monotheistic, Judaism generally rejects this view''." 13165: 11551: 11360: 9713: 8339:::''Since the Reformation, Christianity is usually represented as being divided into three main branches...'' 13698: 14605: 13258: 13023: 13019: 13015: 13011: 13007: 13003: 12999: 12995: 12991: 12987: 12983: 12979: 12975: 12971: 12967: 12963: 12959: 12955: 12951: 12947: 12943: 12939: 12935: 12931: 12927: 12923: 12919: 12915: 12911: 12907: 12903: 12899: 12895: 12891: 12887: 12883: 12879: 12875: 12871: 12867: 12863: 12859: 12855: 12851: 12847: 12843: 12839: 12835: 12831: 12827: 12823: 12819: 12815: 12175: 11779: 4489: 7593: 13053: 12811: 12807: 12803: 12799: 12795: 12791: 12787: 12783: 12779: 11543: 11411: 11351: 7267: 4611: 3972: 14086: 3961: 13297: 1727:::::If someone never heard the term "Jesus Christ", they would think it's a name as opposed to a title. 1650::::{{talkquote|Christians belief that the four ] of ], ], ] and ] describe Jesus's life and teachings}} 14486: 11499:. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about 2889::::::{{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} I have a suggestion that I can provide sources for, pending your approval. 14612: 14521: 14418: 14382: 14267: 14215: 14162: 14133: 14075: 14009: 13929: 13904: 13765: 13714: 13687: 13506: 13270: 153: 12706: 12197: 11461: 4027: 3917: 1972:::{{yo|Durzill89}} nice , but exactly as expected, and not getting the point, as explained above. ]: 13537: 12642: 11504: 13619:, with the Old Testament as the gospels' respected background. (this is in the lead, not the body) 12712: 11913: 2272::::::I have a suggestion that I believe will improve and clarify the introduction to Christianity. 14588: 13919: 13918: 13666: 13139: 13084: 12733: 11395: 164: 104: 13130: 4556: 4523: 13110: 12063: 4478: 13657: 9990: 6165: 14005: 13993: 13965: 13404: 13328: 13228: 13131: 11785: 11713: 11587: 10909: 2442: 63: 12718: 14606: 14412: 14376: 14315: 14261: 14209: 14156: 14127: 14101: 14069: 13989: 13957: 13923: 13898: 13759: 13708: 13681: 13531:...venerating a man named Jesus as the Jewish Messiah as well as the redeemer of mankind... 13500: 13264: 13147: 12690: 11706: 10194:*"the major Christian doctrines also emerged, in part, out of the various mystery teachings 10161:*IMHO the history section is better placed further down, next to the "persecution" section. 8139:::::''adj.'' '''1''' of or relating to any of the Protestant Churches or their members etc. 4901: 3873: 11687: 11427: 1460: 8: 14648: 14584: 14471: 14398: 14332: 14302: 14231: 14180: 14109: 14091: 14042: 13971: 13386: 13293: 13283: 11897: 11756: 11668: 11649: 11341: 9894::::::::I have just unprotected, and am going to bed now! ] ] 02:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 3928: 11630: 9540::But all true or untrue accusations cannot remove the fact that there were persecutions. 9468: 14638: 13985: 13412: 13250: 11356: 10062: 13707: 13610: 13219:'s reasoning, but if somebody can find something suitable, it would be good to have a 10997:::Ok, I’ll re-work it to tone down this point where appropriate as futher compromise. 9509: 7412: 2823:::::::Your previous comment, minus "As such etc.". ] - ] 19:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 1391: 188: 14361: 14358: 14351: 13464: 13434: 11337: 4567: 1584::::TLDR. But I have changed the first sentence (with some amendments by others) into 13736: 13583: 13324: 13224: 13191: 13161: 12543: 11526: 4126: 2294::::::I hope my suggestion enhances the article. ] (]) 15:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 16: 11447: 14175: 13377: 13143: 12651: 12422: 1628::::{{talkquote|The four ] of ], ], ] and ] describe Jesus's life and teachings,}} 13813: 14644: 14580: 14467: 14394: 14328: 14298: 14227: 14203: 14176: 14105: 14087: 14060: 14038: 13915: 13570: 13476: 13472: 13468: 13446: 13442: 13438: 13289: 12269: 11730: 4655: 14104: 14013: 13032: 9828::I warned first. strikes me as a little odd. ] 00:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 1561:::This is a suggestion to give some ideas. ] (]) 04:19, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 873:{{archivebox|auto=yes|index=/Archive index|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=60}} 14661: 14600: 14029: 14025: 14001: 13615:"The four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John describe Jesus's 13416: 13240: 12762: 9571: 7828: 6145::There was a Church hierarchy in the first century (at least in some places). 4666: 11517: 4589: 2685: 2395: 44: 14021: 13997: 13602: 13575: 13396: 12694: 12562: 11910: 11542:) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other 11500: 11488: 11310: 5725::We have heard this song before, only it doesn't become truer by repition. 4005: 14320: 13735:, but exactly as expected, and not getting the point, as explained above. 12442:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us 12333: 12045: 4717::On the Mithraism influence, please see ]. ] 17:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 3214:::With regards to the article itself, it appears to begin more reasonably. 1334:::Good observation, about the church. ] - ] 08:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 13579: 13216: 13187: 13157: 12737: 11977: 2946::Thank you for your fruitful efforts. ] (]) 14:23, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 14540: 13038: 13036: 12001: 9938::: I'd check on that, someone resemi'd it ] 18:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC) 2652: 594:|action5link=Knowledge:Good article reassessment/Archive 33#Christianity 14436: 13974: 13389: 1494::What do you suggest it should say? ] (]) 03:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 1221:== The main picture should be of the Crucifixion or the Resurrection == 12245: 12157: 2674: 14501: 12557: 4600: 2641: 14504: 13823: 10964: 13977: 13392: 13220: 13034: 12655: 12438: 12416: 12313: 12221: 12169: 12057: 12021: 6443: 2619: 189:→‎The main picture should be of the Crucifixion or the Resurrection 12633: 11881: 11798: 9817::That user has just been blocked. ] ] 00:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 3950: 13400: 13174: 12406: 12385: 12289: 11891: 9872::::::He has moved over to ] now. ] ] 01:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 6388: 5643::Yeah, but these four fellows were excomunicated sooner or later. 12133: 12085: 14630: 13460: 13430: 12109: 2980:::Same to you; appreciated. ] - ] 14:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 13039: 12561:-related subjects on Knowledge. Please participate by editing 10897:::I restored the information with some more changes per below. 6432: 4545: 2630: 13827: 13183: 6702: 2663: 1039:|mask3=Talk:Christianity/History_formerly_at_ChristianityTalk 773:{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|1= 10660: 6410: 4258: 3983: 2696: 14708: 14634: 7186: 4456: 4434: 4401: 4357: 4214: 4203: 4148: 4093: 448:|action2link=Knowledge:Featured article review/Christianity 14683: 13072: 8243: 6980:: I would agree with that. ] 22:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 6421: 4335: 8171: 4236: 4082: 4060: 12527: 12506: 4423: 4368: 4313: 4280: 4192: 4104: 14637:, the world's most populous continents, resulting in a 13665: 13308: 13288: 6064::In what way does that relate to our issue. Not at all. 4247: 1772:==="Based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ"=== 14748: 13640: 11446: 7299: 6735::Why'd you restore it? ] 18:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 4379: 4324: 4291: 4181:(Harmondsworth, 1967; London, 1968). Jean Daniélou and 4137: 51: 14678: 10932: 10216:*"In its early years, there was not one Christianity" 5561: 4445: 4412: 4390:(Oxford and New York, 1963). James M. Robinson, A New 4302: 4225: 14913: 14898: 12756: 12533: 12412: 12341: 12165: 12053: 11909:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 11887: 11301: 5766::Oh, Thomas Aquinas had some other thoughts on this. 4346: 4170: 14698: 11989:, a task force which is currently considered to be 4269: 12742:Talk:Christianity/Archive 3#Request for references 12652:"Topics that spark Knowledge 'edit wars' revealed" 11593:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as 9927::Removed it again. ] 16:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 4932:http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html 4159:emy, 15 (1929), 341-443. Henry Chadwick, The Early 4071:tian Church (Oxford and New York, 1957). Adolf von 3895:http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html 1694:::::Gracious improvements :-) Additional thoughts: 14903:WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church articles 14713:B-Class vital articles in Philosophy and religion 13565:"Based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ" 4861:I also cite the following sources of scholarhsip: 2161:::::* The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable: 1130:{{edit semi-protected|Christianity|answered=yes}} 1095:== Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2024 == 1028:|mask2=Talk:Christianity/Archive_before_July_2003 14928:Top-importance Evangelical Christianity articles 14659: 14526: 11319:for general discussion of the article's subject. 8474:Sorry, Sophia, but your points don't make sense. 6399:J.R. Porter, The Lost Bible (Duncan Baird, 2001) 3468:Best regards.] (]) 14:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2216:::::Regards, ] - ] 15:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 973:|archive = Talk:Christianity/Archive %(counter)d 14743:B-Class Indian Christianity work group articles 12436:, a project to improve Knowledge's articles on 10733:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi1.htm 7287:== Persecutions list & External web links== 1705:::::Potentially presumptuous words to consider: 1683::::Regards, ] - ] 04:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 14733:Unknown-importance Christian theology articles 13516:Gracious improvements :-) Additional thoughts: 12555:. This project provides a central approach to 11285:Latest revision as of 08:44, 21 September 2024 10690:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_true.htm 10542:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_intr.htm 8371:==Persecution the French Revolution and NPOV== 131:Latest revision as of 08:44, 21 September 2024 14933:WikiProject Evangelical Christianity articles 14918:WikiProject Charismatic Christianity articles 14893:B-Class Seventh-day Adventist Church articles 14883:Unknown-importance Holiness Movement articles 14823:Top-importance Reformed Christianity articles 14260:Your previous comment, minus "As such etc.". 13047:This page has archives. Sections older than 11512: 11460: 9612::They might, but that is their (extreme) POV. 8202:::::] 06:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams 1950::Regards, ] - ] 10:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 14868:Low-importance Methodism work group articles 14668:Knowledge articles that use American English 13528:" assumes Messiah, suggest along lines of: " 3126:::Is Zoroastrianism a monotheistic religion? 14037:I hope my suggestion enhances the article. 13519:Potentially presumptuous words to consider: 13069:Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2024 11731:Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive 8097:::] 06:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams 7340:] 11:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Mr Objective 1517:::Hi, perhaps something along the lines of: 14838:Top-importance Baptist work group articles 14828:WikiProject Reformed Christianity articles 14793:Top-importance Oriental Orthodoxy articles 14498:Is Zoroastrianism a monotheistic religion? 13865:The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable: 11530:, which has its own spelling conventions ( 7513:] 14:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Mr Objective 7453:] 14:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Mr Objective 1017:|mask1=Talk:Christianity/Archive <#> 14923:B-Class Evangelical Christianity articles 14908:B-Class Charismatic Christianity articles 14778:Top-importance Eastern Orthodoxy articles 13355:This is a suggestion to give some ideas. 13337:Hi, perhaps something along the lines of: 8035:] 04:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams 2608:1. Legge 2. 271; Angus, 168 2. Reiach, 73 2128:::::* Cambridge History of Christianity: 1290::yea ] (]) 05:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 12300:WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church 11985:This article is within the scope of the 11222:== Have I protected or semiprotected? == 6454:Colin Wilson, The Occult (Grafton, 1988) 806:{{WikiProject Mythology|importance=mid}} 14968:Knowledge pages referenced by the press 14798:WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy articles 14753:Indian Christianity work group articles 14028:in Christianity) and chronicled in the 11754: 6909:] 21:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)Historian 6849:] 20:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)Historian 2730:] 01:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Giovanni 1006:|target=Talk:Christianity/Archive index 795:{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Top}} 238:{{Talk header|noarchive=yes|search=no}} 14888:WikiProject Holiness Movement articles 14818:B-Class Reformed Christianity articles 14783:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy articles 14738:Christian theology work group articles 14660: 14551:2601:189:4100:EC30:F855:8D90:6137:6A3A 14355: 14063:thank you for your thoughtfull reply. 13750:The "life and teachings" were created 13552:2601:189:4100:EC30:E8AA:ECB2:3D87:836B 13357:2601:189:4100:EC30:E8AA:ECB2:3D87:836B 13310:2601:189:4100:EC30:E8AA:ECB2:3D87:836B 13057:when more than 5 sections are present. 8328:Also, the section contains the phrase: 6549:] 11:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni 5418:that it had its orthodoxy formulated. 5110:] 01:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni 4677:] 17:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni 3511:] 09:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni 2526:and Dove of Anatolian mystery cults.17 1425:== Change First Sentence of Article == 14863:B-Class Methodism work group articles 14441:2601:189:4100:EC30:B825:BA6:BDE1:4DD8 14393:Thank you for your fruitful efforts. 14278:a paragraph that caught my attention: 13786:2601:189:4100:EC30:B825:BA6:BDE1:4DD8 11550:, this should not be changed without 10764:Lack of discrimination against women. 2150::::::That's in plain sight, isn't it? 87:Revision as of 04:18, 23 January 2006 14723:Top-importance Christianity articles 13449:describe Jesus's life and teachings, 13263:Good observation, about the church. 12676: 12628: 12428:This article is within the scope of 12360:WikiProject Evangelical Christianity 12324:WikiProject Charismatic Christianity 11903:This article is within the scope of 11750: 11470: 11288: 8485:*Are Roman Catholics not Christians? 4467:http://www.iep.utm.edu/g/gnostic.htm 3994:Pagels, Elaine, The Gnostic Gospels 426:|action2date=04:26, 26 December 2005 114: 77: 43: 14853:Mid-importance Arminianism articles 14833:B-Class Baptist work group articles 14808:Top-importance Anglicanism articles 14788:B-Class Oriental Orthodoxy articles 14763:Top-importance Catholicism articles 14728:B-Class Christian theology articles 13479:describe Jesus's life and teachings 13323:What do you suggest it should say? 12732:add more references to assist with 11309:for discussing improvements to the 10816:] 04:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC) Mika 5684::And what "faction" should that be? 3257:] 05:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Mika 3248:] (]) 01:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 1749:] (]) 06:38, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 995:{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn 348:|action1date=12:29, 19 January 2004 184: 145: 128: 121: 110: 96: 84: 13: 14878:B-Class Holiness Movement articles 14773:B-Class Eastern Orthodoxy articles 14673:Knowledge former featured articles 13914:I have removed the statement; the 13848:Cambridge History of Christianity: 12332: 12312: 12288: 12268: 12244: 12220: 12196: 12156: 12132: 12108: 12084: 12044: 12020: 12000: 11976: 11923:Knowledge:WikiProject Christianity 11287: 10886::I restored the earlier version... 673:|action6link=Talk:Christianity/GA1 32: 14984: 14963:Mid-importance Mythology articles 14938:WikiProject Christianity articles 14641:of Christian forms and practices. 14360:. Palgrave Macmillan UK. p. 518. 13051:may be automatically archived by 12643:mentioned by a media organization 12184:WikiProject Reformed Christianity 12032:WikiProject Christianity in India 11926:Template:WikiProject Christianity 7994:==Denominations of Christianity== 7165::: ] 00:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 3192:::https://en.wikipedia.org/Shituf 14973:Knowledge pages with to-do lists 14948:Top-importance Religion articles 14858:WikiProject Arminianism articles 14813:WikiProject Anglicanism articles 14768:WikiProject Catholicism articles 14693:Knowledge level-3 vital articles 13860:That's in plain sight, isn't it? 13459:Christians belief that the four 13303:Change First Sentence of Article 13121: 13076: 12761: 12684: 12632: 12536: 12526: 12505: 12415: 12405: 12384: 12344: 12168: 12056: 11890: 11880: 11797: 11764: 11755: 11733:for the week of October 1, 2006. 11724: 11607: 11586: 11563: 11516: 11474: 11331:Click here to start a new topic. 5028:::] 19:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 515:|action3date=17:35, 14 July 2006 335:{{FAOL|Vietnamese|vi:Kitô giáo}} 14527:https://en.wikipedia.org/Shituf 14004:. Most Christians believe that 13407:of mankind, exemplified in his 12607:This article has been rated as 12587:Knowledge:WikiProject Mythology 12484:This article has been rated as 12352:Evangelical Christianity portal 11943:This article has been rated as 9794:== "It's the true religion." == 8653::] 12:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 8620::KHM03, thanks for the flowers. 8308::] 15:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 2051:::::Going through the sources. 313:{{FAOL|Finnish|fi:Kristinusko}} 14703:B-Class level-3 vital articles 14653:16:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 14618:12:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 13276:08:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 13259:05:21, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 13233:05:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 13211:05:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 12590:Template:WikiProject Mythology 12464:Knowledge:WikiProject Religion 12120:WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy 11784:It is of interest to multiple 11062:] 01:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 8558:] 12:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 7726:] 15:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC) 5193:] 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(UTC) 13794:15:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13771:15:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13720:11:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13693:10:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13588:10:19, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13560:06:38, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13525:...venerating Jesus Christ... 13512:04:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13365:04:19, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13333:03:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 13318:03:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 12549:This article is supported by 12467:Template:WikiProject Religion 12357:This article is supported by 12321:This article is supported by 12297:This article is supported by 12280:WikiProject Holiness movement 12277:This article is supported by 12253:This article is supported by 12229:This article is supported by 12205:This article is supported by 12181:This article is supported by 12141:This article is supported by 12117:This article is supported by 12096:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy 12093:This article is supported by 12069:This article is supported by 12029:This article is supported by 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4857: 4848: 4837: 4828: 4817: 4808: 4797: 4786: 4775: 4766: 4755: 4744: 4733: 4724: 4713: 4704: 4693: 4684: 4673: 4662: 4651: 4640: 4629: 4618: 4607: 4596: 4585: 4574: 4563: 4552: 4541: 4530: 4519: 4508: 4496: 4485: 4474: 4463: 4452: 4441: 4430: 4419: 4408: 4397: 4386: 4375: 4364: 4353: 4342: 4331: 4320: 4309: 4298: 4287: 4276: 4265: 4254: 4243: 4232: 4221: 4210: 4199: 4188: 4177: 4166: 4155: 4144: 4133: 4122: 4111: 4100: 4089: 4078: 4067: 4056: 4045: 4034: 4023: 4012: 4001: 3990: 3979: 3968: 3957: 3946: 3935: 3924: 3913: 3902: 3891: 3880: 3869: 3858: 3849: 3837: 3825: 3813: 3804: 3793: 3784: 3773: 3764: 3753: 3744: 3733: 3724: 3712: 3703: 3692: 3683: 3671: 3662: 3651: 3640: 3629: 3618: 3607: 3598: 3589: 3576: 3567: 3541: 3532: 3507: 3502:== 'Southern' Christianity == 3498: 3473: 3464: 3438: 3428: 3403: 3393: 3367: 3357: 3332: 3321: 3310: 3299: 3288: 3278: 3253: 3244: 3221: 3210: 3199: 3188: 3177: 3166: 3155: 3144: 3133: 3122: 3111: 3100: 3089: 3078: 3064: 3055: 3032: 3019: 3010: 2985: 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Set the 11336:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10282:Other inaccuracies include: 7930:==Persecution by Atheists== 583:|action5date=4 January 2008 502:==Origins of Christianity== 10: 14989: 14958:B-Class Mythology articles 14411:Same to you; appreciated. 13661:to) describe these events. 13424:Additionally, I've changed 12613:project's importance scale 12490:project's importance scale 11949:project's importance scale 11638:Refreshing brilliant prose 9633:mentioned in the article). 6328:directly, in this regard. 291:{{FAOL|Japanese|ja:キリスト教}} 186: 112: 14943:B-Class Religion articles 14350:Pefectly fine, isn't it? 13298:14:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC) 13251: 13196:16:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC) 13166:01:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 13152:21:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC) 13115:20:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC) 12606: 12521: 12483: 12400: 12340: 12320: 12296: 12276: 12252: 12228: 12204: 12164: 12140: 12116: 12092: 12052: 12028: 12008: 11984: 11959: 11955: 11942: 11875: 11792: 11737: 11723: 11695:Good article reassessment 11605: 11601: 11581:) and why it was 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2490:Isis, Diana, or Juno.12 718:|maindate=July 18, 2004 616:|action5oldid=181978109 605:|action5result=delisted 82: 14688:B-Class vital articles 14643: 14466: 14327: 14286: 14034: 14012:, whose coming as the 13894: 13875: 13857: 13840: 13829: 13747: 13677: 13496: 13481: 13451: 13421: 13054:Lowercase sigmabot III 12641:This article has been 12337: 12317: 12293: 12273: 12249: 12225: 12201: 12161: 12137: 12113: 12089: 12064:Catholic Church portal 12049: 12025: 12005: 11981: 11579:the nomination archive 11361:avoid personal attacks 1357:== Infobox language == 918:|maxarchivesize = 200K 896:{{User:MiszaBot/config 537:|action3oldid=63815259 470:|action2oldid=32724283 459:|action2result=demoted 14627: 14461: 14323: 14281: 14000:, as narrated in the 13968: 13890: 13870: 13853: 13835: 13821: 13742: 13672: 13597:As a starter, "Jesus 13488: 13457: 13427: 13380: 12552:WikiProject Mythology 12336: 12316: 12292: 12272: 12248: 12224: 12200: 12160: 12136: 12112: 12088: 12048: 12024: 12004: 11980: 11929:Christianity articles 11838:Reformed Christianity 11771:level-3 vital article 11386:Neutral point of view 4737:::Couple of points: 684:|action6result=failed 526:|action3result=listed 381:|action1oldid=2204838 13569:I have reverted the 13415:as described in the 13134:. FYI, Christianity 12740:on the talk page at 12432:WikiProject Religion 12256:Methodism work group 11714:Good article nominee 11676:Good article nominee 11548:relevant style guide 11544:varieties of English 11491:. Any such comments 11391:No original research 282:{{American English}} 14356:Halsey, A. (1988). 14354:provides a source: 13970:Christianity is an 13878:Also quite obvious. 12012:theology work group 11898:Christianity portal 11546:. According to the 9949:==History rewrite== 7380:::] -- well stated. 940:|minthreadsleft = 5 370:|action1result=kept 13617:life and teachings 12724:Updated 2013-03-08 12593:Mythology articles 12567:assess and improve 12444:assess and improve 12338: 12318: 12294: 12274: 12250: 12226: 12208:Baptist work group 12202: 12162: 12138: 12114: 12090: 12050: 12026: 12006: 11982: 11780:content assessment 11613:Article milestones 11486: 11372:dispute resolution 11333: 762:|topic=Philrelig}} 740:|currentstatus=FFA 143: 94: 14639:greater diversity 14366:978-1-349-19466-7 14352:Nontrinitarianism 13980:centered on the 13608:Let's start with 13461:canonical gospels 13431:canonical gospels 13103: 13102: 13061: 13060: 12752: 12751: 12675: 12674: 12627: 12626: 12623: 12622: 12619: 12618: 12581:for more details. 12500: 12499: 12496: 12495: 12470:Religion articles 12458:for more details. 12379: 12378: 12375: 12374: 12371: 12370: 11749: 11748: 11745: 11744: 11707:November 15, 2022 11650:December 26, 2005 11597:on July 18, 2004. 11558: 11557: 11511: 11510: 11482: 11469: 11468: 11352:Assume good faith 11329: 11300: 11299: 11282: 6368:Further refences: 304:{{Article history 129: 115:→‎History rewrite 85: 65: 14980: 14615: 14609: 14604: 14480:Hi, perhaps the 14421: 14415: 14385: 14379: 14374: 14319: 14270: 14264: 14218: 14212: 14207: 14165: 14159: 14136: 14130: 14078: 14072: 13961: 13932: 13926: 13920:WP:CHERRYPICKING 13907: 13901: 13768: 13762: 13737:Historical Jesus 13730: 13717: 13711: 13690: 13684: 13509: 13503: 13284:Infobox language 13273: 13267: 13257: 13255: 13249: 13245: 13140:WP:NOTFREESPEECH 13129: 13125: 13124: 13094: 13090: 13080: 13079: 13073: 13056: 13040: 12765: 12757: 12725: 12688: 12687: 12677: 12667: 12665: 12663: 12636: 12629: 12595: 12594: 12591: 12588: 12585: 12579:WikiProject page 12546: 12544:Mythology portal 12541: 12540: 12539: 12530: 12523: 12522: 12517: 12509: 12502: 12501: 12472: 12471: 12468: 12465: 12462: 12456:wikiproject page 12425: 12420: 12419: 12409: 12402: 12401: 12396: 12388: 12381: 12380: 12354: 12349: 12348: 12347: 12178: 12173: 12172: 12066: 12061: 12060: 11987:Jesus work group 11967: 11957: 11956: 11931: 11930: 11927: 11924: 11921: 11900: 11895: 11894: 11884: 11877: 11876: 11871: 11868: 11801: 11794: 11793: 11777: 11768: 11767: 11760: 11759: 11751: 11738:Current status: 11728: 11709: 11690: 11671: 11652: 11633: 11631:January 19, 2004 11612: 11611: 11603: 11602: 11590: 11567: 11560: 11559: 11527:American English 11523:This article is 11520: 11513: 11478: 11477: 11471: 11465: 11464: 11450: 11381:Article policies 11302: 11289: 3014:===Monotheism=== 1050:|leading_zeros=0 962:|algo = old(60d) 195: 194: 192: 179: 161: 142: 137: 119: 118: 117: 108: 93: 66: 57: 56: 54: 49: 47: 39: 36: 21: 19: 14988: 14987: 14983: 14982: 14981: 14979: 14978: 14977: 14658: 14657: 14613: 14608:Joshua Jonathan 14607: 14598: 14596: 14434: 14419: 14414:Joshua Jonathan 14413: 14383: 14378:Joshua Jonathan 14377: 14367: 14316:Joshua Jonathan 14313: 14268: 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2008 11686: 11667: 11648: 11629: 11606: 11552:broad consensus 11475: 11407: 11402: 11401: 11400: 11377: 11347: 11277: 11266: 11255: 11244: 11232: 11223: 11212: 11203: 11192: 11183: 11171: 11162: 11145: 11134: 11125: 11114: 11105: 11094: 11083: 11072: 11063: 11052: 11041: 11030: 11021: 11010: 10998: 10987: 10976: 10965: 10953: 10944: 10933: 10921: 10910: 10898: 10887: 10876: 10867: 10855: 10846: 10835: 10826: 10817: 10806: 10794: 10785: 10765: 10754: 10743: 10734: 10723: 10711: 10700: 10691: 10680: 10661: 10642: 10623: 10603: 10583: 10563: 10552: 10543: 10532: 10520: 10509: 10500: 10489: 10480: 10469: 10460: 10449: 10440: 10429: 10420: 10409: 10400: 10389: 10380: 10369: 10358: 10349: 10338: 10327: 10316: 10305: 10294: 10283: 10272: 10261: 10250: 10239: 10228: 10217: 10206: 10195: 10184: 10173: 10162: 10151: 10140: 10129: 10118: 10107: 10096: 10085: 10074: 10063: 10052: 10041: 10032: 10021: 10012: 10000: 9991: 9980: 9971: 9959: 9950: 9939: 9928: 9917: 9906: 9895: 9884: 9873: 9862: 9851: 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4687: 4678: 4667: 4656: 4645: 4634: 4623: 4612: 4601: 4590: 4579: 4568: 4557: 4546: 4535: 4524: 4513: 4502: 4490: 4479: 4468: 4457: 4446: 4435: 4424: 4413: 4402: 4391: 4380: 4369: 4358: 4347: 4336: 4325: 4314: 4303: 4292: 4281: 4270: 4259: 4248: 4237: 4226: 4215: 4204: 4193: 4182: 4171: 4160: 4149: 4138: 4127: 4116: 4115:York, 1938-45). 4105: 4094: 4083: 4072: 4061: 4050: 4039: 4028: 4017: 4006: 3995: 3984: 3973: 3962: 3951: 3940: 3929: 3918: 3907: 3896: 3885: 3874: 3863: 3852: 3843: 3831: 3819: 3807: 3798: 3787: 3778: 3767: 3758: 3747: 3738: 3727: 3718: 3706: 3697: 3686: 3677: 3665: 3656: 3645: 3634: 3623: 3612: 3601: 3594: 3581: 3572: 3561: 3556: 3547: 3537: 3526: 3521: 3512: 3503: 3492: 3487: 3478: 3469: 3458: 3453: 3444: 3434: 3422: 3417: 3408: 3399: 3387: 3382: 3373: 3363: 3351: 3346: 3337: 3326: 3315: 3304: 3293: 3284: 3272: 3267: 3258: 3249: 3238: 3233: 3226: 3215: 3204: 3193: 3182: 3171: 3170:::Also helpful: 3160: 3149: 3138: 3127: 3116: 3105: 3094: 3083: 3070: 3060: 3049: 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12749: 12746: 12745: 12727: 12682: 12680: 12673: 12672: 12669: 12668: 12658:. 18 July 2013 12647: 12640: 12639: 12637: 12625: 12624: 12621: 12620: 12617: 12616: 12609:Mid-importance 12605: 12599: 12598: 12596: 12565:, and help us 12548: 12547: 12531: 12519: 12518: 12516:Mid‑importance 12510: 12498: 12497: 12494: 12493: 12486:Top-importance 12482: 12476: 12475: 12473: 12427: 12426: 12410: 12398: 12397: 12395:Top‑importance 12389: 12377: 12376: 12373: 12372: 12369: 12368: 12365:Top-importance 12356: 12355: 12339: 12329: 12328: 12319: 12309: 12308: 12305:Top-importance 12295: 12285: 12284: 12275: 12265: 12264: 12261:Low-importance 12251: 12241: 12240: 12237:Mid-importance 12227: 12217: 12216: 12213:Top-importance 12203: 12193: 12192: 12189:Top-importance 12180: 12179: 12163: 12153: 12152: 12149:Top-importance 12139: 12129: 12128: 12125:Top-importance 12115: 12105: 12104: 12101:Top-importance 12091: 12081: 12080: 12077:Top-importance 12068: 12067: 12051: 12041: 12040: 12037:Top-importance 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2120: 2119: 2116: 2114: 2112: 2109: 2108: 2105: 2103: 2101: 2098: 2097: 2094: 2092: 2090: 2087: 2086: 2083: 2081: 2079: 2076: 2075: 2072: 2070: 2068: 2065: 2064: 2062: 2059: 2057: 2054: 2053: 2050: 2048: 2046: 2043: 2042: 2039: 2037: 2034: 2031: 2030: 2028: 2025: 2023: 2020: 2019: 2016: 2014: 2012: 2009: 2008: 2005: 2003: 2000: 1997: 1996: 1993: 1991: 1989: 1986: 1985: 1982: 1980: 1978: 1975: 1974: 1971: 1969: 1967: 1964: 1963: 1960: 1958: 1956: 1953: 1952: 1949: 1947: 1945: 1942: 1941: 1938: 1936: 1934: 1931: 1930: 1927: 1925: 1923: 1920: 1919: 1916: 1914: 1912: 1909: 1908: 1905: 1903: 1901: 1898: 1897: 1894: 1892: 1890: 1887: 1886: 1883: 1881: 1879: 1876: 1875: 1872: 1870: 1868: 1865: 1864: 1861: 1859: 1857: 1854: 1853: 1850: 1848: 1846: 1843: 1842: 1839: 1837: 1835: 1832: 1831: 1829: 1826: 1824: 1821: 1820: 1817: 1815: 1813: 1810: 1809: 1806: 1804: 1801: 1798: 1797: 1793: 1791: 1789: 1786: 1785: 1783: 1780: 1778: 1775: 1774: 1771: 1769: 1767: 1764: 1763: 1760: 1758: 1755: 1752: 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559: 557: 555: 552: 551: 548: 546: 543: 540: 539: 536: 534: 532: 529: 528: 525: 523: 521: 518: 517: 514: 512: 510: 507: 506: 504: 501: 499: 496: 495: 492: 490: 488: 485: 484: 481: 479: 476: 473: 472: 469: 467: 465: 462: 461: 458: 456: 454: 451: 450: 447: 445: 443: 440: 439: 437: 434: 432: 429: 428: 425: 423: 421: 418: 417: 415: 412: 410: 407: 406: 403: 401: 399: 396: 395: 392: 390: 387: 384: 383: 380: 378: 376: 373: 372: 369: 367: 365: 362: 361: 358: 356: 354: 351: 350: 347: 345: 343: 340: 339: 337: 334: 332: 329: 328: 325: 323: 321: 318: 317: 315: 312: 310: 307: 306: 303: 301: 299: 296: 295: 293: 290: 288: 285: 284: 281: 279: 277: 274: 273: 271: 268: 266: 263: 262: 259: 257: 255: 252: 251: 249: 246: 244: 241: 240: 237: 235: 233: 230: 229: 224: 222: 220: 218: 214:talkheaderlong 213: 211: 209: 206: 205: 202: 198: 197: 176: 163: 162: 147: 126: 98: 67: 61: 59: 41: 33: 27: 23: 22: 14: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 14985: 14974: 14971: 14969: 14966: 14964: 14961: 14959: 14956: 14954: 14951: 14949: 14946: 14944: 14941: 14939: 14936: 14934: 14931: 14929: 14926: 14924: 14921: 14919: 14916: 14914: 14911: 14909: 14906: 14904: 14901: 14899: 14896: 14894: 14891: 14889: 14886: 14884: 14881: 14879: 14876: 14874: 14871: 14869: 14866: 14864: 14861: 14859: 14856: 14854: 14851: 14849: 14846: 14844: 14841: 14839: 14836: 14834: 14831: 14829: 14826: 14824: 14821: 14819: 14816: 14814: 14811: 14809: 14806: 14804: 14801: 14799: 14796: 14794: 14791: 14789: 14786: 14784: 14781: 14779: 14776: 14774: 14771: 14769: 14766: 14764: 14761: 14759: 14756: 14754: 14751: 14749: 14746: 14744: 14741: 14739: 14736: 14734: 14731: 14729: 14726: 14724: 14721: 14719: 14716: 14714: 14711: 14709: 14706: 14704: 14701: 14699: 14696: 14694: 14691: 14689: 14686: 14684: 14681: 14679: 14676: 14674: 14671: 14669: 14666: 14665: 14663: 14654: 14650: 14646: 14642: 14640: 14636: 14632: 14626: 14624:Christianity. 14622: 14621: 14620: 14619: 14616: 14610: 14602: 14591: 14590: 14586: 14582: 14579:Best regards. 14577: 14573: 14569: 14565: 14561: 14560: 14556: 14552: 14542: 14539: 14538: 14537: 14536: 14535: 14528: 14525: 14522: 14518: 14516:Also helpful: 14515: 14514: 14513: 14512: 14511: 14503: 14500: 14497: 14496: 14495: 14494: 14493: 14485: 14484: 14479: 14478: 14477: 14473: 14469: 14465: 14460: 14457: 14453: 14452: 14451: 14450: 14446: 14442: 14438: 14425: 14422: 14416: 14410: 14409: 14408: 14407: 14404: 14400: 14396: 14392: 14391: 14390: 14389: 14386: 14380: 14373: 14368: 14363: 14359: 14353: 14338: 14334: 14330: 14326: 14322: 14317: 14312: 14308: 14304: 14300: 14296: 14292: 14288: 14285: 14280: 14276: 14274: 14271: 14265: 14259: 14258: 14257: 14256: 14255: 14254: 14253: 14252: 14251: 14250: 14249: 14248: 14237: 14233: 14229: 14224: 14223: 14222: 14219: 14213: 14205: 14200: 14199: 14198: 14197: 14196: 14195: 14194: 14193: 14186: 14182: 14178: 14174: 14171: 14170: 14169: 14166: 14160: 14153: 14148: 14147: 14146: 14145: 14140: 14137: 14131: 14125: 14120: 14119: 14118: 14117: 14116: 14115: 14111: 14107: 14103: 14097: 14093: 14089: 14085: 14084: 14083: 14082: 14079: 14073: 14066: 14062: 14048: 14044: 14040: 14036: 14033: 14031: 14030:New Testament 14027: 14026:Old Testament 14023: 14019: 14015: 14011: 14007: 14003: 14002:New Testament 13999: 13995: 13991: 13987: 13983: 13979: 13976: 13973: 13967: 13964: 13959: 13954: 13953: 13952: 13951: 13950: 13949: 13948: 13947: 13946: 13945: 13936: 13933: 13927: 13921: 13917: 13913: 13911: 13908: 13902: 13896: 13893: 13889: 13886: 13882: 13877: 13874: 13869: 13868: 13864: 13863: 13859: 13856: 13852: 13851: 13847: 13846: 13842: 13839: 13834: 13831: 13828: 13826: 13820: 13819: 13815: 13812: 13811: 13809: 13808: 13807: 13806: 13805: 13804: 13803: 13802: 13795: 13791: 13787: 13782: 13781: 13780: 13779: 13778: 13777: 13772: 13769: 13763: 13757: 13753: 13749: 13746: 13741: 13738: 13734: 13728: 13723: 13722: 13721: 13718: 13712: 13706: 13701: 13696: 13694: 13691: 13685: 13679: 13676: 13671: 13668: 13663: 13660: 13656: 13651: 13646: 13642: 13639: 13635: 13632: 13628: 13625: 13621: 13618: 13614: 13613: 13611: 13607: 13604: 13600: 13596: 13594:(sub)section. 13592: 13591: 13590: 13589: 13585: 13581: 13577: 13572: 13562: 13561: 13557: 13553: 13539: 13536: 13533: 13532: 13527: 13526: 13521: 13518: 13515: 13514: 13513: 13510: 13504: 13498: 13495: 13493: 13487: 13483: 13480: 13478: 13474: 13470: 13466: 13462: 13456: 13453: 13450: 13448: 13444: 13440: 13436: 13432: 13426: 13423: 13420: 13418: 13417:New Testament 13414: 13410: 13406: 13402: 13398: 13394: 13391: 13388: 13384: 13379: 13376: 13375: 13374: 13373: 13372: 13371: 13366: 13362: 13358: 13354: 13350: 13347: 13345: 13344: 13339: 13336: 13335: 13334: 13330: 13326: 13322: 13321: 13320: 13319: 13315: 13311: 13300: 13299: 13295: 13291: 13277: 13274: 13268: 13262: 13261: 13260: 13256: 13254: 13246: 13244: 13236: 13234: 13230: 13226: 13222: 13218: 13215:I can follow 13214: 13212: 13208: 13204: 13200: 13199: 13198: 13197: 13193: 13189: 13185: 13181: 13167: 13163: 13159: 13155: 13154: 13153: 13149: 13145: 13141: 13137: 13133: 13128: 13119: 13118: 13117: 13116: 13112: 13108: 13098: 13095:parameter to 13086: 13082: 13075: 13074: 13066: 13063: 13055: 13050: 13045: 13044: 13030: 13029: 13026: 13025: 13021: 13017: 13013: 13009: 13005: 13001: 12997: 12993: 12989: 12985: 12981: 12977: 12973: 12969: 12965: 12961: 12957: 12953: 12949: 12945: 12941: 12937: 12933: 12929: 12925: 12921: 12917: 12913: 12909: 12905: 12901: 12897: 12893: 12889: 12885: 12881: 12877: 12873: 12869: 12865: 12861: 12857: 12853: 12849: 12845: 12841: 12837: 12833: 12829: 12825: 12821: 12817: 12813: 12809: 12805: 12801: 12797: 12793: 12789: 12785: 12781: 12778: 12774: 12773: 12769: 12764: 12759: 12758: 12755: 12743: 12739: 12735: 12731: 12730: 12729: 12726: 12723: 12720: 12717: 12714: 12711: 12708: 12705: 12702: 12698: 12696: 12692: 12681: 12679: 12678: 12657: 12653: 12649: 12648: 12644: 12638: 12635: 12631: 12630: 12614: 12610: 12604: 12601: 12600: 12597: 12580: 12576: 12572: 12568: 12564: 12560: 12559: 12554: 12553: 12545: 12534: 12532: 12529: 12525: 12524: 12520: 12514: 12511: 12508: 12504: 12503: 12491: 12487: 12481: 12478: 12477: 12474: 12457: 12453: 12449: 12445: 12441: 12440: 12435: 12434: 12433: 12424: 12418: 12413: 12411: 12408: 12404: 12403: 12399: 12393: 12390: 12387: 12383: 12382: 12366: 12363:(assessed as 12362: 12361: 12353: 12342: 12335: 12331: 12330: 12326: 12325: 12315: 12311: 12310: 12306: 12303:(assessed as 12302: 12301: 12291: 12287: 12286: 12282: 12281: 12271: 12267: 12266: 12262: 12259:(assessed as 12258: 12257: 12247: 12243: 12242: 12238: 12235:(assessed as 12234: 12233: 12223: 12219: 12218: 12214: 12211:(assessed as 12210: 12209: 12199: 12195: 12194: 12190: 12187:(assessed as 12186: 12185: 12177: 12171: 12166: 12159: 12155: 12154: 12150: 12147:(assessed as 12146: 12145: 12135: 12131: 12130: 12126: 12123:(assessed as 12122: 12121: 12111: 12107: 12106: 12102: 12099:(assessed as 12098: 12097: 12087: 12083: 12082: 12078: 12075:(assessed as 12074: 12073: 12065: 12059: 12054: 12047: 12043: 12042: 12038: 12035:(assessed as 12034: 12033: 12023: 12019: 12018: 12014: 12013: 12003: 11999: 11998: 11994: 11993: 11988: 11979: 11975: 11974: 11971: 11969: 11964: 11963: 11958: 11954: 11950: 11946: 11940: 11937: 11936: 11933: 11916: 11912: 11908: 11907: 11899: 11893: 11888: 11886: 11883: 11879: 11878: 11874: 11867: 11863: 11859: 11855: 11851: 11847: 11843: 11839: 11835: 11831: 11827: 11823: 11819: 11815: 11811: 11806: 11803: 11800: 11796: 11795: 11791: 11787: 11781: 11773: 11772: 11762: 11758: 11753: 11752: 11741: 11736: 11732: 11727: 11722: 11718: 11716: 11715: 11711: 11708: 11704: 11703: 11699: 11697: 11696: 11692: 11689: 11685: 11684: 11680: 11678: 11677: 11673: 11670: 11669:July 14, 2006 11666: 11665: 11661: 11659: 11658: 11654: 11651: 11647: 11646: 11642: 11640: 11639: 11635: 11632: 11628: 11627: 11623: 11620: 11617: 11616: 11610: 11604: 11600: 11596: 11592: 11589: 11585: 11584: 11580: 11576: 11572: 11569: 11566: 11562: 11561: 11553: 11549: 11545: 11541: 11537: 11533: 11529: 11528: 11522: 11519: 11515: 11514: 11506: 11502: 11498: 11494: 11490: 11485: 11481:This page is 11480: 11473: 11472: 11463: 11459: 11456: 11453: 11449: 11445: 11441: 11438: 11435: 11432: 11429: 11426: 11423: 11420: 11417: 11413: 11410: 11409:Find sources: 11406: 11405: 11397: 11396:Verifiability 11394: 11392: 11389: 11387: 11384: 11383: 11382: 11373: 11369: 11367: 11364: 11362: 11358: 11355: 11353: 11350: 11349: 11343: 11339: 11338:Learn to edit 11335: 11332: 11327: 11326: 11323: 11322: 11318: 11312: 11308: 11304: 11303: 11296: 11293: 11291: 11290: 11284: 11274: 11271: 11263: 11260: 11252: 11249: 11240: 11237: 11231: 11228: 11220: 11217: 11211: 11208: 11200: 11197: 11191: 11188: 11179: 11176: 11170: 11167: 11161: 11158: 11153: 11150: 11142: 11139: 11133: 11130: 11122: 11119: 11113: 11110: 11102: 11099: 11091: 11088: 11080: 11077: 11071: 11068: 11060: 11057: 11049: 11046: 11038: 11035: 11029: 11026: 11018: 11015: 11006: 11003: 10995: 10992: 10984: 10981: 10973: 10970: 10961: 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