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agree. By following your route, we are making a "link" of information and meaning of this information. I consider this link of information and meaning to be of such a low quality that I prefer not to see a link being made at all. This may be common practice in the microformat world (and perhaps even in many of our infoboxes because you put it there), but as
Knowledge we should strive towards quality. I think putting the birthname in the nickname field simply because the current hCard and vCard specifications don't have better accommodations for this information at this point in time is a mistake. —
1739:
it in this template on extensive experience of using microformats in hundreds of templates on
Knowledge; on applying microformats to other websites; and my experience of the behaviour of microformat parsers; and the fact that no other "alternative name" parameter is available to us. "n" is not appropriate in this instance because, for example, the birth name of many married women is not the name they currently use - there is, again, no other hCard parameter available to us for "pre-marriage" names.
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there is no good definition on how to format certain information with microformats, then just don't format it. I don't feel for this change and I won't be talked down into agreeing with you. I will not execute the change. Any other admin is welcome to make the change. I just won't agree with it and I won't make it. Garbage in, garbage out. Better no tags, than tags that won't mean shit for re-users. —
1187:. It is confusing to have Latin in an English encyclopedia, it has to be blue linked so people understand what the field should contain and the blue link provides no explanation. It is also grammatically incorrect. Education runs from prep school to their highest degree or degrees. Which one of the potential four or five schools is their nourishing mother? Maybe we should include the name of their
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I do not share your interpretation of the vCard specification of the "nickname" field Andy. You are right that it CAN fit within the definition, I just don't think it was ever intended to be the spirit of the specification. We can discuss this as long as you want, but it is as simple as that we don't
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The microformats wiki gives no definition of "nickname",; nor indeed does the hCard spec. The vCard specification from which hCard is derived defines a
Nickname as " descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing". I'm also basing my proposed use of
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Yes, the music infoboxes use color, but I have never seen it as useful— it only works for those who are aware that there is a key to the colors. For readers who don't browse to that template documentation, the colors probably appear random. For this suggestion, the infobox content makes it clear that
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You seem to read what you want to read. Like I said, nickname should be for nicknames, not for "random shit we can't put anywhere else" (even if it is common). I'm a big fan of microformats, but in my opinion, you take these things to their extremes and far beyond their "proper" usage at times. If
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is that is is ambiguous. The dictionary definition isn't precise (using words like "usually"), and can cause confusion. For example many people have been awarded honorary diplomas and some have not finished college (hence dropped out, or currently enrolled). Some articles consider this to be an
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with the colour scheme. This would brighten up this drab box that sits around on BLPs making them all dark and gloomy. Start the Wiki
Campaign For Colour! Make the reader want to know that Mr What's his Face from the Moon was born on 87th of December 2034. Make them glare intensively at their
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Suggest changing from "political party" to "political party/faction," as I'd like to be able to list political factions previous historical figures were associated with. "Party" is a more modern democratic political construction, and by adding "/faction" it broadens the use of the attribute
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parameter and attach the hCard value to it. This would greatly facilitate the migration of a bunch of infoboxes for sportspeople and other celebrities, many of which support such a parameter, to this template. I'm frankly totally frakking astounded that this field is missing. :-/
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I'm personally of the opinion that it's better to have data NOT tagged, than to have it tagged "incorrectly". Also X-MAIDENNAME is a common vCard extension for maidenname for instance, and this is exactly why such extensions to the vCard spec are allowed. As the poster of
1795:") is not a maiden name ("Ciccone"). Using nickname for this parameter is not incorrect and your use of "scare quotes" when describing your personal opinion suggest that, at least subconsciously, you are aware of this. Nickname is already used as the hCard parameter for
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the nl.wiki link to "Sjabloon:Infobox persoon", which appears to do the same thing this does. If I've mistranslated its purpose, let me know and I'll just remove. Odd that there was no real reason for the original link's removal, just "weg" ("gone", I believe).
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for re-users; but valid semantic metadata; complient wothte relevant specification, the vCard specification from which hCard is derived, which I cited above: " descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing".
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Strongly oppose. We only use their primary website in the infobox for a reason: to keep numerous URLs from cluttering the box. If the twitter account is particularly notable in itself, include it in the external links section. Otherwise, just leave it out.
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While we're all here, can I make a quick suggestion, tell me what you think. Now that we are incorporating all of these other infoboxes, it still might be worth our while to differentiate between the different people. Something, like what's done with
1068:
What difference would it make in Bill Gates if that information was under "education"? Education doesn't imply graduation. All colleges and prep schools can contain parentheticals such as (dropped out) (incomplete) (honorary) and (transferred).
398:
Can we please remove some of the unnecessary style elements in this template? Specifically things like the padding and font sizes, all of which were inherited from an earlier version of this template but are simply unnecessary now it uses
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key is to be used in those cases. The obvious problem of course being that we don't separate all elements of the name, making usage of the n property rather difficult. It however says nothing about using nickname in such cases, does it ?
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I should like to add the above parameters, already used in other biographical templates, to increase standardisation and to facilitate those templates calling this one; or being merged into it. Any comments; or other suggestions?
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Same here, obviously. There's no obvious reason for overriding any of these defaults, and it slightly improves consistency across our biography articles (as most specialised bio infobox templates use the unmodified
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I left a couple in intentionally, because it didn't seem ideal to have words like "of" wrapping onto a new line. Thanks for the update. Can you also move the template to the uncapitalised "person", please?
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I propose that alma mater no longer be used in an infoxbox due to its ambiguous nature. State explicitly what degrees a person has received and how they have received them. Clear, precise, honest.
325:
Many infoboxes use colour, yes, but they don't generally have different colours for living and dead people. The very first sentence of an article should tell you whether or not a person is alive.
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says: "Garbage in, garbage out". The nickname might be used as the "garbage bin" of names in vCards, but that does not make it a good idea to advertise this misguided behavior in my opinion. —
970:
tell us which
Universities people attended but don't "state explicitly what degrees a person has received and how they have received them". How should infoboxes handle that scenario? -
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I rather think that the opposite is how
Knowledge is trending; the arbitrary use of different colours to differentiate different types of infobox is confusing and often distracting.
2111:
doesn't really work for nicknames, only for aliases and pseudonyms. Agreed with above comment that given names are not nickanmes, but neither are most values that would appear in
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Okay, it was still incorrect, but I believe I fixed it. I also tweaked the criminal labels a bit since status can be misleading. Please revert if this causes a problem. Thanks!
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Other changes I've made in the sandbox are the removal of several non-breaking spaces which frankly didn't make any sense (they were applied rather inconsistantly) and added
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Note to Taketa: You can make changes like that yourself, as the interwikis are in the /doc page, not the template itself, here and at most other well-developed templates. —
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1231:". Atheism is non-belief. This "Religious beliefs" descriptor strikes me as a kludge. Perhaps code could be introduced to make this a two part specification like so:
2009:
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I propose that we include a "language" field that lists the languages the person speaks/spoke (with their native language/s labeled specifically in some fashion).
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As I said: there is no other hCard parameter available to us for "pre-marriage" names - vCard extensions are not available in hCard. In any case, a birth name ("
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I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the section at the top of this talk page, about potential candidates for merging with this template. In particular,
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Could you say which parameters you're adding, which you're removing, and which you're changing? It's quite hard to see what's what from the diff you gave.
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I see, but this is going to need some fixing. In particular, label15 is being used twice. There might be other bugs, but I will have to check a bit more.
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Looks like a well-worked plan to me. Did we ever get a conclusion on whether or not the master template should allow for collapsing sections or not?
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as requested. I can't really see the purpose in putting a tag on this template as anyone watching it will also be watching this talk page. — Martin
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A birthname is not a nickname is it ? If anything if both {{{name}}} and {{birthname}}} are specified, then {{{name}}} is the nickname is it not ? —
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I took you at your word. I apologise if I was wrong to do so. In which case, I shall address your other points. Your opening remark veers close to
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I have no objection to changing "alma mata" to "education"—in fact I think "education" is better because it can include multiple institutions. But
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With scads of celebrities creating
Twitters, what about adding a "Twitter" section to the infobox and having that be a link to their Twitter? --
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Of course we have not reached a consensus, so the likelihood that another admin will actually make the change is rather small at this moment. —
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So? He has one in a test showing of a template? Also oppose having it in an infobox. If important, put it in the external links section.
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belief", implying no particular application of the adjective when more than one could appy (similarly, "traveling belief" might mean a
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This simple change, to implement a mode used widely elsewhere on - and off - WP, remains to be done. Can we now move forward with it?
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It instantly tells the reader if the person is living or dead. Many other infoboxes have this kind of background coloring, such as
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to "Opponent(s)" and "Spouse(s)" to prevent undesirable wrapping there. Also, it would probably be wise to move this themplate to
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has no parameters not used by this template, though there are some differences in the use of underscores in parameter names; and
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in which the community expressed a preference for a less ambiguous term. I'll try to dig up some links to discussions soon. //
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1292:" rather than simply an opinion; that would be an overly narrow and seemingly willfully confused and confusing inference. —
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Is there going to be a legend so that readers understand the color code? Would this be implemented automatically if
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Many thanks. It should now be possible to merge (or convert to call this template) those listed directly above.
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in numerous other such templates, without problem. Such usage is not what is described by the cited blog post.
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1428:@SMcCandlish, Thnx for the tip, I will do that in the future. @Huntster, it refers to a removal nomination at
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has the following clear instructions for ordering birth dates and death dates on the death date line, thus:
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Please remove the interwiki to nl.wikipedia. Apparently the template has been removed on nl.wikipedia.
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be merged into this template. Please will somebody put the necessary flags on the two templates?
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Provided the contrast between backgrounds and text is sufficiently great; that seems a good idea.
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I wouild prefer if the gray background over the name of the person would appear if either
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Taketa, thanks for the explanation. Hopefully the link I replaced it with is comparable.
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I propose adding a gray background over the name of the person, if the person is dead.
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based on your proposal? If it works for all of them, I'd find that very convincing. -
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I personally would just put the college in the "Education" field and in <small: -->
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Please work out your disagreement with TheDJ before requesting an edit. Sincerely,
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Right, just use the standard default color used by other templates. No need for "
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s, it would be gramatically incorrect to include multiple colleges in the section
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1143:, with citations, so we can see whether his/her structer rule is practicable. -
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e.g. at-large, in prison, on parole, released, dead (specify if executed), etc.
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Should be labelled "Political movement" and placed below "Political party".
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2115:(someone suggested this as the target for the hCard nickname element). —
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parameter for any alternative name to that used as the formatted name (
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a religious belief (i.e., a belief about religion). That is, it is an "
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Interesting. On
Village Pump, they opposed it more than supported it.
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Anyone who is commemorated by a monument (other then their own grave)
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How does one add the award of a medal to the infobox? I'm thinking of
851:. It would be similar to listing multiple awards in a section labeled
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Question: there are a few nbsps left - should these still be there? —
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1606:| data1 = {{#if:{{{birth_name|}}}|<span class="nickname": -->
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2897:(I've also added some additional hCard microformat classes, chiefly
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regarding whether we should keep images of signatures in infoboxes.
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I support this proposal. There was a specific discussion regarding
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I'm not convinced; I never really agreed with this sort of thing at
245:. Why distinguish between the living and the dead in this manner?
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Used when the subject has presented television programmes/series
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1268:. Also, I have to strenuously disagree with your point. Atheism
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The differently-named parameters of
Infobox revolutionary are:
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Perhaps this idea could be implemented on this template too? --
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Well then instead of having multiple colours, just have one. —
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Note possible clash with status (for, e.g. "marital status";
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Anyone who notably employs an agent (e.g. public speakers)
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put (attended) after the college's name, n that situation.
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Greetings, I was examining the details in the infobox for
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Done (one difference - I subst'd the nowrap templates). —
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I think they are all listed in the table above. — Martin
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Per the above table and discussion, please implement the
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Organisations of which the subject was notably a member.
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and the parameters unique to
Infobox revolutionary are:
1609:}}{{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{{birth_date}}}<br /: -->
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737:{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:0}}|]}}</includeonly: -->
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wants a new, stricter, rule that the parameter should
2905:). The three "criminal" parameters have been renamed
1339:. This seems like a reasonable alteration to me. —
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to prevent the categorisation of undesirable pages.
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Done. I think I got all the redirects fixed up... —
2769:Feminists, environmentalists, trade unionists etc.
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Political movements in which the subject was active
1240:This way non-belief could be accurately described?
1223:(which I've just updated) and I noticed the line, "
2716:People who were notably influenced by the subject
2333:all of which would seem at home in this template.
1995:Please get consensus before making such requests.
1331:You mean just a change to the documentation? Just
2989:Well spotted. That's been fixed; and re-checked.
2240:could apply to many subjects of this template.
1264:Wikicode doesn't work that way (you can't have
1902:Any other admin is welcome to make the change.
1849:Any other admin is welcome to make the change.
1917:definition of how to format birth names: use
1286:belief that itself travels from mind to mind
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527:}} Please update template with the code at
2672:People who notably influenced the subject
2523:Other types of style (e.g. architectural)
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1540:for her actions in the accident involving
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1179:I agree with the merging of education and
627:Please make this template emit the hidden
1030:Can you give example infobox entries for
711:Template talk:Infobox#Emitting categories
409:. I've stripped away all of this junk at
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1337:they can undo it and we'll hash it out
722:If the template is to be edited, can:
1575:Additional hCard "nickname" parameter
2740:Monuments commemorating the subject
826:The current problem that I see with
1335:, and if anyone flips out about it
1290:belief characterized by religiosity
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3081:computer screen looking for more.
2895:changes I just made to the sandbox
1490:Template talk:Infobox officeholder
1488:There is an ongoing discussion at
1185:Template_talk:Infobox_officeholder
394:Remove unnecessary style elements?
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709:More general discussion moved to
452:per capitalisation guidelines at
75:Hm, but Jamie has one, above...
2909:in accordance with consensus at
2294:dateofbirth (matches birth_date)
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2138:template:infobox musical artist
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1227:" where hers was specified as "
3110:Chris Cunningham (not at work)
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2401:Template:Infobox revolutionary
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1193:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
1071:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
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2494:Heather Angel (photographer)
2306:alternate name (other_names)
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18:Template talk:Infobox person
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1913:. In this case, there is a
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1183:. The same must be done at
1119:to offer draft entries for
966:Unfortunately, some useful
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752:12:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
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2833:12:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
2442:16:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
2416:15:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
2384:14:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
2354:11:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
2303:placeofdeath (death_place)
2297:placeofbirth (birth_place)
2261:13:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
2192:13:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
2157:02:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
2093:16:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
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1569:12:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
1554:12:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
3049:19:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
3024:16:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
3010:14:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
2985:16:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
2971:16:28, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
2954:06:53, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
2940:22:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
1588:Please add an additional
1528:Honours / awards / medals
1282:belief held during travel
1234:religion= yes|no|system=
1115:. In that case, I'd like
2300:dateofdeath (death_date)
2226:three other parameters,
1909:, and certainly crosses
819:Proposed Deprecation of
424:Infobox Person/testcases
2851:Not that I'm aware of.
1592:parameter by changing:
475:all the above changes,
364:the person is dead. ---
3075:Infobox musical artist
2570:Penalty for the above
2361:#Additional parameters
1793:Madonna Louise Ciccone
1278:belief about traveling
843:, since the plural of
736:}}<includeonly: -->
727:]</includeonly: -->
726:}}<includeonly: -->
532:Infobox Person/sandbox
507:defaults these days).
479:(User:Pigsonthewing);
414:Infobox Person/sandbox
142:(User:Pigsonthewing);
2787:Infobox revolutionary
2757:Infobox revolutionary
2733:Infobox revolutionary
2689:Infobox revolutionary
2645:Infobox revolutionary
2448:Additional parameters
2282:Infobox revolutionary
2266:Infobox revolutionary
1610:}}{{{birth_place|}}}
1598:}}{{{birth_place|}}}
1534:Barbara Jane Harrison
1121:Franklin D. Roosevelt
1032:Franklin D. Roosevelt
3083:We need colour now!
2544:Criminal conviction
2132:Clearer instructions
1559:Found it! - awards.
2098:Far better solution
614:Add hidden category
547:per above. Cheers!
2621:Infobox journalist
2600:renaming suggested
2389:Note: I've placed
1215:Religious beliefs?
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728:<noinclude: -->
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2803:(more to follow)
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2102:Just implement a
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1133:Richard Feynman
1044:Richard Feynman
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3085:Many thanks, —
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3016:Plastikspork
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2923:Andy Mabbett
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2868:Andy's edits
2855:Andy Mabbett
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2681:|influenced=
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2513:Infobox chef
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2466:Explanation
2438:Andy's edits
2425:Andy Mabbett
2421:OK, thanks.
2388:
2380:Andy's edits
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1756:Andy's edits
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3041:Andy's talk
3002:Andy's talk
2932:Andy's talk
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2725:|monuments=
2498:Peter Scott
2434:Andy's talk
2376:Andy's talk
2346:Andy's talk
2253:Andy's talk
2184:Andy's talk
2119:SMcCandlish
2085:Andy's talk
2028:Andy's talk
2015:See above.
1939:Andy's talk
1865:Andy's talk
1812:Andy's talk
1752:Andy's talk
1696:Andy's talk
1627:Andy's talk
1412:SMcCandlish
1376:Okay, I've
1343:SMcCandlish
1296:SMcCandlish
1145:Pointillist
1056:Pointillist
972:Pointillist
773:Andy's talk
692:Andy's talk
679:Thank you.
644:Andy's talk
481:Andy's talk
454:MOS:INFOBOX
144:Andy's talk
2948:SlimVirgin
2807:Discussion
2749:|movement=
2460:Parameter
2329:influenced
2326:influences
2232:television
2104:|nickname=
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2050:barbarian
2005:barbarian
1181:alma mater
1137:Bill Gates
1129:Paul Dirac
1048:Bill Gates
1040:Paul Dirac
845:alma mater
841:alma mater
837:alma mater
833:alma mater
828:alma mater
821:alma mater
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81:Farmbrough
3127:Cargoking
3091:Cargoking
2555:|penalty=
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2359:See also
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1507:Language
1457:Huntster
1385:Huntster
1253:Netscott
1117:Stargnoc
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810:contribs
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935:TheWeak
861:TheWeak
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2169:Done
2136:The
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1923:shit
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