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grade school) long 'U' sound," e.g., /dj/ dew, /lj/ lute, /nj/ newt, etc. Shouldn't there also be an entry for /mj/ as in music, mew, munificent? I have no clue if this is something valid that has been overlooked, or if I just don't know enough about my native language (all of which I'm sure could fill several VERY LARGE tomes) in this instance. Thank you for your time.
333:-oriented dictionaries and pedagogical texts have adopted the IPA, and as a result, it is far less confusing for many people around the world than any alternative. It may be confusing in some aspects to some English speakers, but that is precisely because it is conceived with an international point of view. The sound of
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transcription, it's a diaphonemic abstraction that encodes how it is pronounced in the major accents of natively-spoken
English. The choice of /ɜːr/ is a blend of the traditional way of transcribing the corresponding RP and GA sounds, viz. /ɜː/ and /ər/. We could also have chosen /☎/, but that's less
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Thanks to
Austronesier for explaining the fact it is not actually intended to accurately reflect ANY pronunciation. I think that it probably should, but I would imagine the debate about whether to use local standard pronunciations in English-language place names was lost long ago. I am also a little
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I have seen that text, but it doesn't answer the point. In
General American the pronunciation is different to /ɜːr/, and though I have never seen given for the NURSE vowel in RP (in as much as it exists), we can definitely agree it is not pronounced as /ɜːr/. As you allude to, the standard notation
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I am nothing but a casual observer. I've never studied phonetics, language, speech, etc., so I have no idea if this is stupid to even bring up. If so, I offer my deepest apologies for wasting anyone's time. That being said, I saw entries for several other "letters followed by the (as I was taught in
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I just suggested it at that talk page, but in case it's of more interest here: since it seems that //r// is so much more of a chronic objection than the fact that our key makes vowel distinctions that AmE doesn't, perhaps the problem is rather that "don't pronounce this letter that's clearly there"
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means "h" as in "hi", "ur" as in "fur" and "n" as in "nigh" (which you will see as tooltips if your device supports hovering over the IPA), regardless of which variation of
English you speak. In my southern English version of British English, I do not pronounce the "r" in "fur", so Knowledge's IPA
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Listing multiple national pronunciations after every
Knowledge entry word quickly becomes unwieldy, and listing only one leads to accusations of bias. Therefore, we use a system that aims at being pan-dialectal. Of course, if a particular dialect or local pronunciation is relevant to the topic, it
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states that /ɜːʳ/ is pronounced as in "turn" or "third", with a note that the /ʳ/ superscript shows that in
Received Pronunciation the /r/ is pronounced only when it is followed by a vowel, while in General American it is always pronounced. Apart from using a superscript, this is the same as the
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in accents of
English around the world, and the goal of our diaphonemic system is to cover as many of them as possible. Moreover, where there is no phonological contrast to possibly cause confusion, using a more typographically recognizable letter for a sound represented by another symbol in the
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To be fair, transcriptions meant to represent specifically GA or RP are themselves most often in effect diaphonemic - the former for assuming a cot-caught distinction(sometimes also the strut-comma and weak vowel mergers, which are mostly absent from the Inland North, Western
Pennsylvania, New
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In
Received Pronunciation, /ɜːr/ is pronounced as a lengthened schwa, . In General American, it is phonetically identical to /ər/. Some dictionaries therefore use ⟨əː, ər⟩ instead of the conventional notations ⟨ɜː, ɜr⟩. When ⟨ər⟩ is used for /ɜːr/, it is distinguished from /ər/ by marking the
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in the Key section where they were unambiguously referring to diaphonemes rather than phonemes as far as I could find, but it can be ambiguous sometimes. (E.g. should it be "/A/ is merged with /B/ in accent X", "⫽A⫽ is merged with /B/ in accent X", or "⫽A⫽ is merged with ⫽B⫽ in accent
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is given as /hɜːrn/. I checked a few other
English place names and noticed the same use of /ɜːr/. The problem is that nobody says that, whether their accent is rhotic or not, in rhotic accents it is /hɜrn/ and non-rhotic it is /hɜːn/. Is there something I'm missing:
918:/ʔ/ is an entirely paralinguistic sound and "uh-oh" is not a valid word to base the inclusion of a marginal phoneme around. However, seeing and /ts/ is a common marginal phoneme in words like "tsar" or "Mozart", including it would probably be valid.
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is simply too inconsistent in regard to its correspondence to pronunciation, and therefore a completely intuitive respelling system is infeasible. This is why our respelling system must be used merely to augment the IPA, not to replace it.
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and use the notation you used above for what they call the "UK" pronunciation of "nurse" (although people in Lancashire and Norfolk may argue that is wrong). They use a different notation for the "US" pronunciation:
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as b|ɛər|ɪ|ŋ in this system. If we made the change, we would want to avoid the output being something like bɛəʳɪŋ, since the r here in these types of cases is not optional even in non-rhotic accents but required.
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is a bigger mental block than "pronounce these two letters the same way". So perhaps it might help to change the symbols we use for the diaphonemes to //ɑː(r)//, //ɔː(r)//, etc., explicitly parenthesising the r?
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I’m not your ‘mate’, sunshine, and yes, I’ll call out incivility and idiotic edit warring when I see it. There’s a talk page for you to use if you’re able to do so without reverting to further incivility. -
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Knowledge deals with a vast number of topics from foreign languages, and many of these languages contain sounds that do not exist in English. In these cases, a respelling would be entirely inadequate. See
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as /ˈɒŋkiː/, which seems surprising to me. I am aware that /ɒ/ for the spelling ⟨an⟩ is not unheard of, especially in French loanwords with /ɑ̃/ in the original, but is Anki really pronounced like that?
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I think that probably makes it worse to a degree! We might be better off with the telephone symbol suggested by Austrioneser. If even linguistically trained people need to click on the link and read
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We do not mark them as such, though. I thought last year we had reached a consensus that we should mark the diaphonemicity of our transcriptions by surrounding them with double slashes ⫽…⫽, see
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Nice canvassing. As you're the main edit warrior on the page, it's a bit of a stretch - and more than a little uncivil - to disregard the well-founded arguments of others as 'nonsense'. -
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page, and then User:Sol505000 edit warred there about it, but they did not get a consensus in their favor. So they brought the issue to this Talk page to see if they could
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Alas, readers familiar with the real-world IPA cannot be expected to guess that Knowledge has its own esoteric phonetic system in which the pronunciation symbols mean "
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I expect /æ/ or /ɑː/ (especially from British and American speakers, respectively), but it's unsourced anyway. It should be sourced to an ad or a developer saying it.
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in some traditional dialects of England (e.g. stereotypically in Norfolk), which is beyond the scope of variation that we try to capture in this pronunciation key. –
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worried that people who know the phonetic alphabet might take these transcriptions at face value, and it seems strange that this aspect of WP:IPA is in effect
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Collins dictionary on-line, which uses /nɜːʳs/ for the pronunciation of "nurse". Its [https://blog.collinsdictionary.com/ipa-pronunciation-guide-cobuild/ guide
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to make use of our transcription system (and there is nothing to advise anybody they meed to do this) I don't think it is benefitting anybody.
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intended for viewing by non-editors. Please prioritize their needs when adjusting its design, and move editor-facing elements to other pages.
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The IPA is the international standard for phonetic transcription, and therefore the Knowledge standard as well. Many non-American and/or
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep our non-standard use of single slashes to enclose diaphonemic transcriptions?
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I have had disagreements with Sol505000 in the past, but we really should look at the situation and realize having a discussion about
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simply because it's one of the most common and intuitive ways to illustrate the sound; it doesn't mean it's only used in paralanguage.
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I also am content with either option. Something to consider for the implementer, though, is that we currently transcribe a word like
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behaves more like a consonant cluster, rather than a phoneme. It doesn't appear word-initially, at least not regularly (see e.g.
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Either solution seems fair given the insistence of some to disregard well-established conventions over the mere sight of the
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The IPA should be specific to a particular national standard, and the national pronunciations should be listed separately.
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Our transcriptions are still surrounded by single slashes /…/. Readers familiar with the IPA will know that this means a
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used for the NURSE vowel in the UK is /ɜː/. So why are we using a phonetic transcription which is not used by anybody?
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It's because there is considerable varation in the realization of /dj/, /lj/ etc. in major varieties of English (see
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep delimiting diaphonemic transcriptions with single slashes?
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Youglish indicates that /ˈæŋki/ is the norm in BrE, which fits for the general pattern of nativisation of <a: -->
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is arguably the more traditional IPA notation; not only is it used by most if not all dictionaries, but also in
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a random uninvolved administrator (simply, the most recently active one), who can perhaps help the situation.
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England, and Eastern Canada), the latter for assuming no l-vocalization, and both for assuming no /æ/ splits.
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is all I've ever heard in US English, so that's what was meant, most likely. I've corrected the IPA, changing
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1990:: Thanks. That looks like a more professional way of saying what I took four paragraphs to explain below.
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That's neither here nor there. We transcribe any allophone of /t/ as /t/ because this key is diaphonemic.
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on the talk page of a specific article, when the template is used in countless pages, is out of place. ~
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Here's what really happened to initiate this discussion. There was a longstanding stable IPA on the
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Even better, then, if there's a precedent. I'm happy to support superscripts if they get proposed.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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are the one ignoring a well-established consensus in the APPROPRIATE place, which is right here.
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Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation/Archive 11#Distinction between varieties of English
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in the IPA, and this was chosen from German and several other languages which spell this sound
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notation Knowledge uses, so your assertion that this is not used by anybody is not correct.
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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always means "pronounce it as in 'rye'". When combined with other symbols, such as
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It's also a common allophone across most dialects of English, particularly for /t/
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940:/t/ and /s/ are already phonemes so there's no need to list /ts/ separately.
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Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2024 — Article: Help:IPA/English
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Further fixes in articles where our diaphonemes are mentioned are welcome.
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Because it's a phoneme in English if you ask just about any linguist. See
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for a few examples. But even this is not without problems; for example,
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Knowledge has chose to use the symbols and symbol combinations defined
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954:/t/ and /ʃ/ are already phonemes so there’s no need for /tʃ/ as well…?
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and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the
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because the nasal is always velar (so the vowel is weak, phonemically
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The IPA is gibberish and I can't read it. Why doesn't Knowledge use a
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1699:⟩ a try or should we open a separate dedicated discussion before? ~
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narrow IPA is totally within the confines of the IPA's principles (
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transcription. However, our transcriptions are not phonemic, but
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You don't get to call me uncivil when you so blatantly disregard
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1916:: The article is correct. If you look at the IPA explanation at
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is phonetically representative of RP when prevocalic, as in
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may be listed in addition to the wider pronunciation, using
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That can be automated in Lua. Can be tricky, but feasible.
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I have opened a request for comment to discuss the matter:
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Inclusion of /ts/ as a marginal phoneme and removal of /ʔ/
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Still, I doubt it's going to change, so there we have it.
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I just came here as I noticed the IPA transcription for
933:/ʔ/ is included for Hawaiian loans. It's illustrated by
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Nobody has intervened any more. Are we going to give ⟨
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and this guide. Take a good look at the mirror, mate.
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all over again, with the 'local consensus' nonsense.
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for the rhotic consonant is inaccurate. It should be
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1745:i’m sure that replacements using a regex such as
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2021:: I think you are mistakenly assuming that
1449:knows. As for the edit-war situation, I've
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278:. Please read recent comments, look in the
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2064:Other publications use different symbols:
1971:intuitive than the more realistic /ɜːr/. –
1196:Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024
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1110:We currently show the pronounciation of
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1514:That’s great, thanks a lot! --
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525:It is of interest to multiple
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351:For English words, Knowledge
54:Put new text under old text.
2312:Knowledge Help Project pages
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970:English phonology#Obstruents
895:This page was nominated for
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2240:to reactivate your request.
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1888:/ɜːr/in British place names
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62:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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337:in "yes" is spelled
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1280:Edit semi-protected
1266:please establish a
411:English orthography
389:would be respelled
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1729:is closed.
1526:Undone per
1008:/ˈtsiːmlɪç/
812:Linguistics
803:linguistics
756:Linguistics
455:The use of
383:Lepidoptera
42:IPA/English
2296:Categories
2230:|answered=
1894:Herne Hill
1856:Brutus6844
1840:Brutus6844
1751:БудетЛучше
1284:template.
1276:using the
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956:БудетЛучше
578:discussion
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2066:Cambridge
1482:angbr IPA
1451:contacted
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1268:consensus
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1012:/syː~suː/
972:for why.
905:was Keep.
761:Phonetics
704:Languages
695:languages
651:Languages
582:Help Menu
517:help page
445:IPA-endia
387:cum laude
379:Cochineal
100:if needed
83:Be polite
38:talk page
1968:phonetic
1782:Ssilvers
1407:phonemic
1369:SchroCat
1332:SchroCat
1145:/ˈɑːŋki/
1005:ziemlich
920:Plexus96
897:deletion
463:instead.
280:archives
111:Archives
68:get help
2248:NoShldJ
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1800:IPAc-en
1706:Scrooge
1669:Wolfdog
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1528:request
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731:on the
626:on the
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368:respell
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960:talk
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