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grade school) long 'U' sound," e.g., /dj/ dew, /lj/ lute, /nj/ newt, etc. Shouldn't there also be an entry for /mj/ as in music, mew, munificent? I have no clue if this is something valid that has been overlooked, or if I just don't know enough about my native language (all of which I'm sure could fill several VERY LARGE tomes) in this instance. Thank you for your time.
333:-oriented dictionaries and pedagogical texts have adopted the IPA, and as a result, it is far less confusing for many people around the world than any alternative. It may be confusing in some aspects to some English speakers, but that is precisely because it is conceived with an international point of view. The sound of 1970:
transcription, it's a diaphonemic abstraction that encodes how it is pronounced in the major accents of natively-spoken English. The choice of /ɜːr/ is a blend of the traditional way of transcribing the corresponding RP and GA sounds, viz. /ɜː/ and /ər/. We could also have chosen /☎/, but that's less
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Thanks to Austronesier for explaining the fact it is not actually intended to accurately reflect ANY pronunciation. I think that it probably should, but I would imagine the debate about whether to use local standard pronunciations in English-language place names was lost long ago. I am also a little
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I have seen that text, but it doesn't answer the point. In General American the pronunciation is different to /ɜːr/, and though I have never seen given for the NURSE vowel in RP (in as much as it exists), we can definitely agree it is not pronounced as /ɜːr/. As you allude to, the standard notation
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I am nothing but a casual observer. I've never studied phonetics, language, speech, etc., so I have no idea if this is stupid to even bring up. If so, I offer my deepest apologies for wasting anyone's time. That being said, I saw entries for several other "letters followed by the (as I was taught in
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I just suggested it at that talk page, but in case it's of more interest here: since it seems that //r// is so much more of a chronic objection than the fact that our key makes vowel distinctions that AmE doesn't, perhaps the problem is rather that "don't pronounce this letter that's clearly there"
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means "h" as in "hi", "ur" as in "fur" and "n" as in "nigh" (which you will see as tooltips if your device supports hovering over the IPA), regardless of which variation of English you speak. In my southern English version of British English, I do not pronounce the "r" in "fur", so Knowledge's IPA
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Listing multiple national pronunciations after every Knowledge entry word quickly becomes unwieldy, and listing only one leads to accusations of bias. Therefore, we use a system that aims at being pan-dialectal. Of course, if a particular dialect or local pronunciation is relevant to the topic, it
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states that /ɜːʳ/ is pronounced as in "turn" or "third", with a note that the /ʳ/ superscript shows that in Received Pronunciation the /r/ is pronounced only when it is followed by a vowel, while in General American it is always pronounced. Apart from using a superscript, this is the same as the
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in accents of English around the world, and the goal of our diaphonemic system is to cover as many of them as possible. Moreover, where there is no phonological contrast to possibly cause confusion, using a more typographically recognizable letter for a sound represented by another symbol in the
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To be fair, transcriptions meant to represent specifically GA or RP are themselves most often in effect diaphonemic - the former for assuming a cot-caught distinction(sometimes also the strut-comma and weak vowel mergers, which are mostly absent from the Inland North, Western Pennsylvania, New
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In Received Pronunciation, /ɜːr/ is pronounced as a lengthened schwa, . In General American, it is phonetically identical to /ər/. Some dictionaries therefore use ⟨əː, ər⟩ instead of the conventional notations ⟨ɜː, ɜr⟩. When ⟨ər⟩ is used for /ɜːr/, it is distinguished from /ər/ by marking the
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in the Key section where they were unambiguously referring to diaphonemes rather than phonemes as far as I could find, but it can be ambiguous sometimes. (E.g. should it be "/A/ is merged with /B/ in accent X", "⫽A⫽ is merged with /B/ in accent X", or "⫽A⫽ is merged with ⫽B⫽ in accent
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is given as /hɜːrn/. I checked a few other English place names and noticed the same use of /ɜːr/. The problem is that nobody says that, whether their accent is rhotic or not, in rhotic accents it is /hɜrn/ and non-rhotic it is /hɜːn/. Is there something I'm missing:
918:/ʔ/ is an entirely paralinguistic sound and "uh-oh" is not a valid word to base the inclusion of a marginal phoneme around. However, seeing and /ts/ is a common marginal phoneme in words like "tsar" or "Mozart", including it would probably be valid. 413:
is simply too inconsistent in regard to its correspondence to pronunciation, and therefore a completely intuitive respelling system is infeasible. This is why our respelling system must be used merely to augment the IPA, not to replace it.
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and use the notation you used above for what they call the "UK" pronunciation of "nurse" (although people in Lancashire and Norfolk may argue that is wrong). They use a different notation for the "US" pronunciation:
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as b|ɛər|ɪ|ŋ in this system. If we made the change, we would want to avoid the output being something like bɛəʳɪŋ, since the r here in these types of cases is not optional even in non-rhotic accents but required.
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is a bigger mental block than "pronounce these two letters the same way". So perhaps it might help to change the symbols we use for the diaphonemes to //ɑː(r)//, //ɔː(r)//, etc., explicitly parenthesising the r?
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I’m not your ‘mate’, sunshine, and yes, I’ll call out incivility and idiotic edit warring when I see it. There’s a talk page for you to use if you’re able to do so without reverting to further incivility. -
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Knowledge deals with a vast number of topics from foreign languages, and many of these languages contain sounds that do not exist in English. In these cases, a respelling would be entirely inadequate. See
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as /ˈɒŋkiː/, which seems surprising to me. I am aware that /ɒ/ for the spelling ⟨an⟩ is not unheard of, especially in French loanwords with /ɑ̃/ in the original, but is Anki really pronounced like that?
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I think that probably makes it worse to a degree! We might be better off with the telephone symbol suggested by Austrioneser. If even linguistically trained people need to click on the link and read
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We do not mark them as such, though. I thought last year we had reached a consensus that we should mark the diaphonemicity of our transcriptions by surrounding them with double slashes ⫽…⫽, see
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Nice canvassing. As you're the main edit warrior on the page, it's a bit of a stretch - and more than a little uncivil - to disregard the well-founded arguments of others as 'nonsense'. -
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page, and then User:Sol505000 edit warred there about it, but they did not get a consensus in their favor. So they brought the issue to this Talk page to see if they could
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Alas, readers familiar with the real-world IPA cannot be expected to guess that Knowledge has its own esoteric phonetic system in which the pronunciation symbols mean "
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I expect /æ/ or /ɑː/ (especially from British and American speakers, respectively), but it's unsourced anyway. It should be sourced to an ad or a developer saying it.
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in some traditional dialects of England (e.g. stereotypically in Norfolk), which is beyond the scope of variation that we try to capture in this pronunciation key. –
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worried that people who know the phonetic alphabet might take these transcriptions at face value, and it seems strange that this aspect of WP:IPA is in effect
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Collins dictionary on-line, which uses /nɜːʳs/ for the pronunciation of "nurse". Its [https://blog.collinsdictionary.com/ipa-pronunciation-guide-cobuild/ guide
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to make use of our transcription system (and there is nothing to advise anybody they meed to do this) I don't think it is benefitting anybody.
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intended for viewing by non-editors. Please prioritize their needs when adjusting its design, and move editor-facing elements to other pages.
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The IPA is the international standard for phonetic transcription, and therefore the Knowledge standard as well. Many non-American and/or
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep our non-standard use of single slashes to enclose diaphonemic transcriptions?
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I have had disagreements with Sol505000 in the past, but we really should look at the situation and realize having a discussion about
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simply because it's one of the most common and intuitive ways to illustrate the sound; it doesn't mean it's only used in paralanguage.
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I also am content with either option. Something to consider for the implementer, though, is that we currently transcribe a word like
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behaves more like a consonant cluster, rather than a phoneme. It doesn't appear word-initially, at least not regularly (see e.g.
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Either solution seems fair given the insistence of some to disregard well-established conventions over the mere sight of the
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The IPA should be specific to a particular national standard, and the national pronunciations should be listed separately.
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Our transcriptions are still surrounded by single slashes /…/. Readers familiar with the IPA will know that this means a
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used for the NURSE vowel in the UK is /ɜː/. So why are we using a phonetic transcription which is not used by anybody?
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It's because there is considerable varation in the realization of /dj/, /lj/ etc. in major varieties of English (see
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep delimiting diaphonemic transcriptions with single slashes?
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Youglish indicates that /ˈæŋki/ is the norm in BrE, which fits for the general pattern of nativisation of <a: -->
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is arguably the more traditional IPA notation; not only is it used by most if not all dictionaries, but also in
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a random uninvolved administrator (simply, the most recently active one), who can perhaps help the situation.
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England, and Eastern Canada), the latter for assuming no l-vocalization, and both for assuming no /æ/ splits.
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is all I've ever heard in US English, so that's what was meant, most likely. I've corrected the IPA, changing
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That's neither here nor there. We transcribe any allophone of /t/ as /t/ because this key is diaphonemic.
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on the talk page of a specific article, when the template is used in countless pages, is out of place. ~
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Here's what really happened to initiate this discussion. There was a longstanding stable IPA on the
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Even better, then, if there's a precedent. I'm happy to support superscripts if they get proposed.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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are the one ignoring a well-established consensus in the APPROPRIATE place, which is right here.
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Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation/Archive 11#Distinction between varieties of English
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in the IPA, and this was chosen from German and several other languages which spell this sound
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notation Knowledge uses, so your assertion that this is not used by anybody is not correct.
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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always means "pronounce it as in 'rye'". When combined with other symbols, such as
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It's also a common allophone across most dialects of English, particularly for /t/
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Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2024 — Article: Help:IPA/English
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Further fixes in articles where our diaphonemes are mentioned are welcome.
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Because it's a phoneme in English if you ask just about any linguist. See
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for a few examples. But even this is not without problems; for example,
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Knowledge has chose to use the symbols and symbol combinations defined
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and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the
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because the nasal is always velar (so the vowel is weak, phonemically
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The IPA is gibberish and I can't read it. Why doesn't Knowledge use a
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narrow IPA is totally within the confines of the IPA's principles (
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transcription. However, our transcriptions are not phonemic, but
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You don't get to call me uncivil when you so blatantly disregard
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is phonetically representative of RP when prevocalic, as in
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may be listed in addition to the wider pronunciation, using
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That can be automated in Lua. Can be tricky, but feasible.
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I have opened a request for comment to discuss the matter:
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Inclusion of /ts/ as a marginal phoneme and removal of /ʔ/
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Still, I doubt it's going to change, so there we have it.
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I just came here as I noticed the IPA transcription for
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Nobody has intervened any more. Are we going to give ⟨
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and this guide. Take a good look at the mirror, mate.
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all over again, with the 'local consensus' nonsense.
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for the rhotic consonant is inaccurate. It should be
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See the opening sentences of 14: 2294: 2115:("ur" as in "fur") is correct for me. 493:⟩ was the norm for the English rhotic. 399:, but this could easily be misread as 2110: 2100: 2076: 2070: 1921: 596:and a volunteer will visit you there. 566:This page is within the scope of the 2027: 1749:will suffice for finding R-liaison. 1178:in recent loanwords in BrE vs. AmE. 884: 858: 502: 468:pronounced in a wide variety of ways 291: 260: 26:For requests for transcription, see 2094: 40:for discussing improvements to the 23: 2337:NA-importance Linguistics articles 830: 24: 2368: 1399:unless you'd rather pronounce it 815:Knowledge:WikiProject Linguistics 795:This page is within the scope of 687:This page is within the scope of 508: 506: 357:Help:Pronunciation respelling key 275:previous arguments being restated 28:Knowledge:Reference desk/Language 2357:WikiProject Linguistics articles 2347:NA-importance phonetics articles 2322:Mid-importance language articles 2261: 2217: 2090: 2037: 2023: 1258: 1203: 888: 862: 818:Template:WikiProject Linguistics 782: 772: 748: 674: 664: 643: 559: 538: 507: 300: 264: 234: 57:Click here to start a new topic. 899:on 1 March 2008. The result of 707:Knowledge:WikiProject Languages 605:Template:Knowledge Help Project 2327:WikiProject Languages articles 2287:06:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 2256:05:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 2194:06:42, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 2176:22:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2150:22:17, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2128:19:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2003:19:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1981:19:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1962:16:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1947:08:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1907:07:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1833:Shouldn't /mj/ be on the list? 1778:get a different consensus here 1514:That’s great, thanks a lot! -- 1417:. Are other steps required? -- 1307:There is edit warring against 710:Template:WikiProject Languages 592:ask for help on your talk page 525:It is of interest to multiple 13: 1: 2352:Phonetics Task Force articles 2332:NA-Class Linguistics articles 2307:High-importance Help articles 809:and see a list of open tasks. 701:and see a list of open tasks. 351:For English words, Knowledge 54:Put new text under old text. 2312:Knowledge Help Project pages 1159:according to Cruttenden, or 970:English phonology#Obstruents 895:This page was nominated for 727:This page has been rated as 622:This page has been rated as 7: 2342:NA-Class phonetics articles 2240:to reactivate your request. 2228:has been answered. Set the 1888:/ɜːr/in British place names 1882:19:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 1848:18:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 1759:18:11, 24 August 2024 (UTC) 1739:02:15, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 1721:14:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC) 1226:to reactivate your request. 1214:has been answered. Set the 1163:according to some others). 1059:17:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC) 1049:thanks for the explanation 1045:17:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC) 62:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10: 2373: 2317:NA-Class language articles 1636:symbol. I support that. ~ 1393:has raised a valid point: 839:This page is supported by 733:project's importance scale 628:project's importance scale 317:Frequently asked questions 25: 1827:23:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1790:23:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1691:14:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1677:14:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1658:10:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1628:08:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1614:08:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1596:has been suggested, e.g. 1587:08:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC) 1188:15:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 1173:15:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 1140:06:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 1125:00:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 1098:20:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC) 1084:19:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC) 1028:15:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC) 982:18:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC) 964:18:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC) 838: 767: 726: 659: 621: 576:, where you can join the 554: 533: 483:, the predecessor to the 363:the IPA, enclosed in the 271:Discussions on this page 92:Be welcoming to newcomers 1563:21:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC) 1540:08:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC) 1522:06:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC) 1510:12:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC) 1467:Done. I've also created 1463:01:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC) 1441:01:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC) 1425:11:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC) 1377:21:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 1362:20:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 1340:15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 1325:15:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 1294:02:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC) 1253:00:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC) 950:00:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC) 928:14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC) 1477:as a shorthand akin to 798:WikiProject Linguistics 475:, pp. 27–28). In fact, 421:for further discussion. 2302:NA-Class Help articles 2271:"change X to Y" format 1934: 835: 602:Knowledge:Help Project 569:Knowledge Help Project 466:The English rhotic is 87:avoid personal attacks 1932:syllable as stressed. 1929: 834: 690:WikiProject Languages 228:Auto-archiving period 1774:Richard D'Oyly Carte 1727:the double slash RfC 1302:Richard D'Oyly Carte 1270:for this alteration 842:Phonetics Task Force 821:Linguistics articles 481:Le Maître Phonétique 337:in "yes" is spelled 1311:on that page. 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So for "Herne", 1725:I would wait till 1592:Using superscript 1433:Célestine-Edelweiß 836: 790:Linguistics portal 521:content assessment 486:Journal of the IPA 359:, and may be used 326:pronunciation key? 286:before commenting. 277: 98:dispute resolution 59: 2244: 2243: 2016: 1264:Not done for now: 1230: 1229: 909: 908: 883: 882: 857: 856: 853: 852: 849: 848: 743: 742: 739: 738: 713:language articles 638: 637: 634: 633: 501: 500: 315: 290: 289: 282:, and review the 272: 259: 258: 78:Assume good faith 55: 2364: 2277:if appropriate. 2265: 2264: 2235: 2231: 2221: 2220: 2214: 2182:Help:IPA/English 2160:furry, occurring 2157: 2120: 2114: 2107: 2106: 2103: 2102: 2099: 2096: 2086:Help:IPA/English 2080: 2074: 2051:Help:IPA/English 2048: 2047: 2044: 2043: 2034: 2033: 2030: 2029: 2010: 2005: 1995: 1939: 1925: 1918:Help:IPA/English 1859: 1823: 1816: 1813: 1810: 1804: 1798: 1748: 1717: 1710: 1707: 1704: 1698: 1654: 1647: 1644: 1641: 1635: 1595: 1495: 1494: 1486: 1480: 1476: 1470: 1392: 1300:Edit warring at 1283: 1262: 1261: 1243: 1242: 1237: 1236: 1221: 1217: 1207: 1206: 1200: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1150: 1146: 1017: 1016:/ˈsiːmlɪk,-x,-ʃ/ 1013: 1009: 1002: 995: 988: 892: 885: 870:Help:IPA/English 866: 865: 859: 823: 822: 819: 816: 813: 792: 787: 786: 776: 769: 768: 763: 752: 745: 744: 715: 714: 711: 708: 705: 684: 679: 678: 668: 661: 660: 655: 647: 640: 639: 610: 609: 606: 603: 600: 595: 574:the project page 563: 556: 555: 550: 542: 535: 534: 512: 511: 510: 503: 492: 478: 462: 458: 449: 443: 439: 433: 405: 395: 372: 366: 344: 305: 304: 292: 268: 267: 261: 253: 239: 238: 229: 33: 2372: 2371: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2292: 2291: 2275:reliable source 2262: 2233: 2229: 2218: 2212: 2155: 2118: 2109:definition for 2093: 2089: 2056:Take a look at 2040: 2036: 2026: 2022: 1993: 1985: 1937: 1890: 1866:yod-coalescence 1853: 1835: 1821: 1814: 1811: 1808: 1802: 1796: 1746: 1715: 1708: 1705: 1702: 1652: 1645: 1642: 1639: 1593: 1492: 1491: 1484: 1478: 1474: 1468: 1386: 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985: 983: 979: 975: 971: 967: 966: 965: 961: 957: 953: 952: 951: 947: 943: 939: 936: 932: 931: 930: 929: 925: 921: 911: 904: 903: 898: 894: 891: 887: 886: 878: 876: 871: 868: 861: 860: 844: 843: 833: 829: 828: 825: 808: 804: 800: 799: 791: 785: 780: 778: 775: 771: 770: 766: 762: 757: 754: 751: 747: 746: 734: 730: 724: 721: 720: 717: 700: 696: 692: 691: 683: 677: 672: 670: 667: 663: 662: 658: 652: 649: 646: 642: 641: 629: 625: 619: 616: 615: 612: 608:Help articles 594: 593: 587: 583: 579: 575: 571: 570: 565: 562: 558: 557: 553: 547: 544: 541: 537: 536: 532: 528: 522: 518: 514: 505: 504: 488: 487: 482: 474: 469: 446: 436: 420: 415: 412: 408: 407: 398: 397: 388: 384: 380: 376: 369: 362: 358: 354: 348: 342: 336: 332: 325: 314: 311: 308: 303: 296: 294: 293: 285: 281: 276: 270: 263: 262: 243: 242: 237: 233: 225: 221: 217: 213: 209: 205: 201: 197: 193: 189: 185: 181: 177: 173: 169: 165: 161: 157: 153: 149: 145: 141: 137: 133: 129: 125: 121: 117: 114: 112: 108: 107: 99: 95: 93: 90: 88: 84: 81: 79: 76: 75: 69: 65: 64:Learn to edit 61: 58: 53: 52: 49: 48: 43: 39: 35: 34: 29: 19: 18:Help talk:IPA 2266: 2245: 2237: 2226:edit request 2163: 2159: 1988:Austronesier 1973:Austronesier 1967: 1930: 1891: 1874:Austronesier 1870:yod-dropping 1862:yod-dropping 1836: 1807: 1771: 1701: 1663: 1638: 1620:Double sharp 1579:Double sharp 1575: 1550: 1545: 1411:diaphonemic. 1410: 1406: 1400: 1396: 1394: 1385: 1349: 1306: 1271: 1263: 1231: 1223: 1212:edit request 1109: 1004: 997: 934: 917: 910: 900: 877:-facing page 873: 840: 796: 728: 688: 623: 591: 567: 527:WikiProjects 516: 484: 480: 473:IPA Handbook 472: 386: 360: 352: 350: 346: 334: 323: 309: 231: 109: 36:This is the 2186:Boynamedsue 2164:hurry–furry 2142:Boynamedsue 2019:Boynamedsue 1966:It's not a 1954:Boynamedsue 1914:Boynamedsue 1899:Boynamedsue 1729:is closed. 1526:Undone per 1008:/ˈtsiːmlɪç/ 812:Linguistics 803:linguistics 756:Linguistics 455:The use of 383:Lepidoptera 42:IPA/English 2296:Categories 2230:|answered= 1894:Herne Hill 1856:Brutus6844 1840:Brutus6844 1751:БудетЛучше 1284:template. 1276:using the 1216:|answered= 1051:БудетЛучше 1034:БудетЛучше 956:БудетЛучше 578:discussion 2267:Not done: 2066:Cambridge 1482:angbr IPA 1451:contacted 1389:Tim riley 1354:Sol505000 1317:Sol505000 1313:Melbourne 1268:consensus 1165:Sol505000 1020:Sol505000 1012:/syː~suː/ 972:for why. 905:was Keep. 761:Phonetics 704:Languages 695:languages 651:Languages 582:Help Menu 517:help page 445:IPA-endia 387:cum laude 379:Cochineal 100:if needed 83:Be polite 38:talk page 1968:phonetic 1782:Ssilvers 1407:phonemic 1369:SchroCat 1332:SchroCat 1145:/ˈɑːŋki/ 1005:ziemlich 920:Plexus96 897:deletion 463:instead. 280:archives 111:Archives 68:get help 2248:NoShldJ 1812:Scrooge 1800:IPAc-en 1706:Scrooge 1669:Wolfdog 1664:bearing 1643:Scrooge 1528:request 1455:Wolfdog 1232:change 731:on the 626:on the 435:IPA-all 375:Beijing 368:respell 232:92 days 2279:Nardog 2168:Nardog 2117:Bazza 2078:/nɜrs/ 2072:/nɝːs/ 1992:Bazza 1936:Bazza 1731:Nardog 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