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superstition, which doesn't stack up well in a
Knowledge article that's otherwise fact-based. I have a commercial low-density free-range egg farm, and in my opinion, the two methods of raising chickens commercially that allow the chickens to lead the "happy chicken life" to best effect are (1) low-density free-range and (2) colony cages. High-density floor confinement, high-density yarding, and high-density free range all have too high a flock size and it weirds out the chickens, leading to cannibalism, etc. Cages with 1-3 birds in them have too small a flock size and it weirds out the chickens in a different way. Colony cages with, say, 8-12 hens can be a very good method, and this method was popular in the Fifties among farmers who had started out raising hens the old-fashioned way. But activists have arbitrarily branded cages as taboo, so no meaningful dialog is possible, and a perfectly straightforward article that might give some insight as to why cages were adopted in the first place is marked as NPOV because it has an NPOV rather than kowtowing to the taboo.
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I've never come across any) but from what I've seen, most follow the "decent life, decent death" motto - if the animals are contented, there's no problem. Anyway, that isn't the point: even if a view is seen to be preposterous, Knowledge will generally still acknowledge it as a view. It's neutral - it doesn't present any one view as right or wrong, just the views and the evidence for or against them. It leaves people to make up their own minds.
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argument. There's a lot of reasoning and quotes supporting battery farming, but almost nothing addressing the huge issue of animal welfare that surrounds the subject. It's not particularly biased in itself, but it's essentially only half the argument. There won't be so much of a problem once someone expands the next section, but at the moment it's unfinished, and because this is
Knowledge that's a very bad thing.
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I understand that, it's obvious that if there was a theory that the Big Bang was caused by a giant space teapot and the theory was supported by three people living in the Amazon
Rainforest, then it wouldn't deserve a place on Knowledge, but this is a widely supported argument. The UK government (for
787:
I'd do something about it myself, but I feel quite strongly about animal welfare and I'm not sure about my ability to maintain NPOV on the subject... I tried writing something, but reading it through it just wasn't going to hack it. Anyway, I'll be watching this talkpage for the next few weeks so if
1163:
Erm, anybody there? I've waited a day and a half since I posted the sources and there's been no response, which is fair enough - nobody's superhuman - but I'm not going to have access to a computer during the next two weeks and I'd like to get this sorted out before everybody forgets about it. I'd
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Whether one side or the other is right, the fact remains that there is a debate going on, and the reason I marked the article is that it only presents one side of it. This could make it seem to a reader like only one side of the argument exists - after all, it's the only one mentioned in
Knowledge,
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The article is neutral. It doesn't talk about the quasi-religious belief that "cages are chicken jails; we insist that you use chicken concentration camps instead" because I could think of no way of doing so without making the proponents look like idiots. In my opinion, a lot of activism is based on
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I'm no expert at
Knowledge rules and regulations (as evidenced by the lack of an account) but I'm pretty sure that this article needs a bit of cleaning up - it seems to spend a lot of time waxing lyrical over the efficiency and cheapness of battery cages without doing much for the other side of the
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Obviously if the material comes from an animal rights website such as the one above, it needs to be checked somewhere else for accuracy, but this one seems to be okay. Some of the links down the bottom of the page look interesting too, but I haven't got much time right now. Hope that's helpful.
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What you've said about chicken farming does make sense, but it's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the need for a larger, more balanced article, and explaining that I couldn't do it myself - just like, as you've admitted, you couldn't - because of my probable bias. If you want an
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There's no need for the assertion that all activism is based on "quasi-religious beliefs" and that everyone wants to see the animals released into cramped spaces where the only difference from the battery cages is the lack of separating walls. Granted, some people may be lobbying for that (though
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An editor has recently renamed this article, specifying that it refers to egg farming. But, this now means the article looks ridiculous as it contains images of other animals farmed for their fur. If there is a need to split the article, let's discuss this here first. The vast majority of
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I changed the first line of this article for two reasons. First, having worked in the industry in the UK for over 20 years, rarely have I heard battery cages being referred to as 'battery farming'. (In modern parlance they are referred to as conventional cages to distinguish them from
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That's just what I mean - I don't think I can write on this subject and maintain a neutral point of view, due to the fact that I feel strongly about it. So, I instead added the template to reflect the state of the article as it stood. I'd like to re-add it for that reason.
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I disagree with the globalization banner that has been placed in the
Examples section. There are 4 examples: Two are the mink and fox - mainly European; The other two are Civets and sun bears - mainly Asia. How can there be a European bias when they represent
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Anyway, I'm probably not going to be able to discuss this further with anyone before I go away, but I hope the explanation I provided will be enough to warrant not taking the template off until there's a section on ethics. Sorry to tag and disappear.
1389:. Second, it seems rather odd to atribute 'Factory farming' to just the USA. The term is used here in the UK and in other countries in the EU. It is also not strictly accurate as 'Factory farming' includes other species such as pigs and broilers.___
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In the past, this article was only for chickens. Now, it also includes other animals. I think this article should be split into two articles, one for chickens and one fore other animals, because there are major differences between the two cages.
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Ooh! Sorry to double-post, but I found something interesting while I was searching for a "discussion in progress over article POV" template or something similar. It basically illustrates what I was talking about in my last post. Source is
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I clicked on a link in this article and it was dead, so I thought I'd update it. I decided I'd learn the
Wikimedia cite syntax. I tried it myself and it didn't work. So I tried an online citation generator, which came up with this:
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Knowledge's NPOV policy must not be misused so it becomes synonymous with revisionism, censorship, whitewashing, or political correctness. Editors must actively enable the presentation of all significant sides of any controversy.
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to this page without a discussion on here first, but when I got here no-one had made a major edit to the page for some time - this talkpage didn't even exist yet, so I figured it might quite a long time for anyone to appear.
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1303:{{cite web | url = www.uepcertified.com/pdf/2010-uep-animal-welfare-guidelines.pdf | title = Animal Husbandry Guidelines for U.S. Egg Laying Flocks | author1 = United Egg Producers | year = 2010 }}</ref: -->
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The POV issue hasn't been resolved and the article remains strongly in favour of battery farming with little to no content describing the valid opposition to the technique. Thus I'm reinstating the POV tag.
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There was more, but I only included the bits I saw to be relevant here. You can see the rest of the text if you click on the link above. Anyway, I'm going to go look for that template. --
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the content you have added, there could be some elaboration. I wasn't making a comment about the tone of your writing, merely the content of the article. No personal insults intended. --
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one of the most trusted sources on the web. If I knew of a template that explained that an article was incomplete, I would have used it, but instead, I used the closest thing I could find.
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Okay, well... I've done a few searches just now and I've got a few references together, but I'm not sure I've really done anything that anyone else couldn't do. Here they are:
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NPOV doesn't mean that all sides must be represented, only those that are sane. Criticisms only deserve a mention if they are independently relevant. See
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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article on the reasons for the adoption of battery cages, then go ahead and write one, but at the moment this is the
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Where is the reference list for this article? I see superscripts but clicking on them does not lead to anything?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I support the split. Cages for fur are very different to cages for eggs(they do not have egg collecting chutes)
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What could be more
Wikipedian than that? It's fantastic when it works, which is rare on controversial subjects.
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Knowledge page - for ideas, rather than sources (obviously, Knowledge can’t be used as a source for itself)
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The map of US restrictions does not align with the text--Connecticut is marked instead of
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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1855:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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1601:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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Description of battery cages - seems mostly factual, not too emotive (except for the last paragraph)
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120712174941/http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20060926222924/http://ec.europa.eu:80/food/fs/sc/oldcomm4/out33_en.pdf
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I also disagree with the move/split. I've already tagged it for an admin to move it back for now.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120524214925/http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/sep06/060915e.asp
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So it would seem. If you can construct a cogent criticism section, feel free to include it. --
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Perhaps you could provide us with some references that would help to build a good section? --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110920142107/http://www.aact.org.au/battery_hens.htm
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Knowledge should include more information than other encyclopedias, not less.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20111125001410/http://www.chooseveg.com/eggs.asp
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Knowledge has to say about battery cages. That's why I was suggesting that
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example) have passed laws regarding it. It's hardly a fringe theory. --
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and you can see the other 2000 pages that made the same mistake. —
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information relates to the housing of egg layers, so a split into
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prod Eyrian on his talkpage, but he no longer seems to have one...
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To leave out one side amounts to promoting the other side's POV.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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BBC search for material relating to animal rights activism
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all significant POV are presented without being promoted.
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http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf
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Why oh why isn't this citation being displayed properly?
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It has the practices only legal in the European Union.
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collaborative efforts of editors who hold opposing POV
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anyone has a problem with the template, just say. --
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http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/oldcomm4/out33_en.pdf
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http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/oldcomm4/out33_en.pdf
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1917:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/sep06/060915e.asp
1781:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1653:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1084:News report on banning of battery cages in the UK
1995:
727:). Add taxonomic authorities to genus articles.
1903:This message was posted before February 2018.
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1639:This message was posted before February 2018.
1548:I think it is a good idea to split the page.--
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1335:THANK YOU PRAISE THE LORD GOD BLESS YOU
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528:Gouldian finch
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349:Mid-importance
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316:Please do not
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375:(assessed as
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1595:Battery cage
1592:
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1547:
1505:— Preceding
1501:
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1312:
1305:
1302:<ref: -->
1301:
1297:
1280:12.106.251.2
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796:
786:
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777:Template:POV
774:
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646:Argus (bird)
638:
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512:
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502:Saker falcon
486:
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308:project page
300:
299:
296:Battery cage
295:
290:Birds portal
225:
185:
136:
96:
40:WikiProjects
1632:Sourcecheck
1567:Please see
1563:Title photo
1274:—Preceding
498:Magpie duck
472:Bird flight
298:is part of
112:Agriculture
103:agriculture
59:Agriculture
1998:Categories
1966:Report bug
1830:Report bug
1434:Jackmcbarn
1337:Itwastrees
1216:Snipergirl
823:as well as
819:only thing
654:Nik Borrow
524:Nidicolous
318:substitute
312:discussion
1949:this tool
1942:this tool
1813:this tool
1806:this tool
1685:this tool
1678:this tool
1573:Sammy1339
1533:DrChrissy
1471:DrChrissy
1419:DrChrissy
1391:DrChrissy
1319:Dodo bird
1234:Dodo bird
897:WP:WEIGHT
893:WP:FRINGE
560:Debeaking
533:Cathartes
520:Phalarope
476:Bird bath
464:Bullfinch
1955:Cheers.—
1819:Cheers.—
1691:Cheers.—
1507:unsigned
1276:unsigned
682:Starling
616:Coal tit
494:Plushcap
488:Copyedit
1853:my edit
1723:my edit
1701::Online
1618:checked
1599:my edit
1310:error.
665:Fregata
659:Pytilia
458:Cleanup
406:history
351:on the
258:Poultry
228:on the
139:on the
30:C-class
1626:failed
1550:LL221W
1469:50%?__
1450:LL221W
935:Eyrian
918:Eyrian
901:Eyrian
772:Hiya,
744:, and
694:Wikify
674:Darter
640:Verify
610:Update
514:Expand
36:scale.
715:Other
580:Stubs
416:purge
411:watch
390:To-do
324:Birds
253:Birds
1986:talk
1622:true
1577:talk
1571:. --
1554:talk
1537:talk
1515:talk
1489:talk
1475:talk
1454:talk
1438:talk
1423:talk
1413:and
1395:talk
1341:talk
1323:talk
1284:talk
1238:talk
1220:talk
1014:PETA
899:. --
895:and
837:here
708:more
686:more
632:more
602:more
572:more
554:NPOV
546:more
506:more
480:more
450:more
401:edit
220:High
1923:RfC
1887:to
1877:to
1867:to
1787:RfC
1757:to
1747:to
1737:to
1659:RfC
1636:).
1624:or
1531:?__
1232:?--
865:4.
851:3.
842:2.
768:POV
343:Mid
131:Mid
2000::
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1936:.
1931:}}
1927:{{
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1791:{{
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1168:--
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256::
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544:(
517::
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478:(
461::
452:)
448:(
443::
392::
355:.
232:.
143:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
