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but that isn't really all that relevant to the question at hand, which is about finding written refs, versus undocumented speculation. I don't see any information saying the 212 does not meet any airworthiness standards in Canada or elsewhere, for cargo aircraft, in fact it has a type certificate in Canada saying it does comply. It is not grounded, it is permitted to fly here. We are very sticky here about unsafe aircraft and just don't certify designs if they don't meet the standards, or if they have production quality control issues. The lack of 212 passenger certification in Canada could be due to something as simple as the cargo aircraft-style seat designs not meeting the CAR STD 525 crashworthiness "g" standards. The example accident you mention above is a maintenance issue; the maintainers put it back together wrong. I once had an engine out (ironically on a Bell 212 on a test flight, not a C-212) due to the same thing, in this case an AFCU assembly error by maint folks. The only "design flaw" is that the maintenance is not "foolproof", but few aircraft are. It is not an airworthiness requirement to be so, which is why maint people go to school. Regardless, unless we have a ref that states that the aircraft has design issues or manufacturing quality control issues, there is nothing we can add to the article on this subject. -
1207:. You haven't addressed the item I brought up. ADs and notices about quality control issues don't necessarily directly relate to individual accidents. ADs are often issued due to findings from inspections, including visual and NDT, and not necessarily accidents. Most large transport aircraft have long lists of ADs and that doesn't mean they crash a lot or are not airworthy. For instance I looked up ADs for the B-737-200 series and there are 357 of them. Does that mean they were poorly designed and constructed? If the quality issues were causing C-212 accidents then one or more airworthiness authorities would have grounded the aircraft. So where is the proof that any of these AD issues caused accidents? We need actual refs, not speculation, to add any of this to the article. The Transport Canada TCDS
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9/5/1989 Wing Flap
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1230:", you were likely flying uncertified military iron, so my assumption was not entirely off-base. Regardless, I do apologize. Getting back to the discussion, the 212 is not approved for carrying passengers because it's inherently dangerous for one reason or another. The accident referred to contained, inter alia, the following conclusions: "
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The 10,000 foot number is not the service ceiling, but a regulatory limitation, as the sentence says: "Since the C-212 does not have a pressurized fuselage, it is limited to relatively low-flight-level airline usage (below 10,000 ft (3,000 m) MSL). It is thus ideal for short legs and regional airline
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I was a civil test pilot, too, and served seven years on the
Transport Canada CARAC committee responsible for airworthiness regs in Canada (CARs Part V) and even chaired a Transport Canada Part V working group, the first time a non-TC staff member ever did that. I've done lots of airworthiness work,
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Hardly a spirited defence of the C-212. In fact I have never even seen one in real life close up, let alone flown one or have any connection to the design or the company. My whole assertion here is that if we are going to add criticisms of the design we need proper refs to cite. Taking a fistful of
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because of the concern of the regulators that the 212 would become unstable as a result of asymetric thrust. Indeed, as the fatal accident showed, the airplane did become unstable as a result of the thrust problems from the right engine due to the faulty engine assembly. Any properly-designed twin
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I must commend your spirited (possibly proprietary?) defense of the C-212 but, honestly, the list of defects of one kind or another with the 212 just goes on and on. Without making an endless list of short-comings, we might just focus on the inherent design defects, and the initial quality defects
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except for restricted, no pax, flight ops. Not sure where you're going with the the B737 comparison. There's been about 4500 fatalities in 737s so far, including the 100 souls lost in last week's 737-200 crash. Although it's a good point you raise, I'm not sure if the B737-100/200 is a good plane
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The speeder spring of the right propeller governor pilot valve was incorrectly installed during assembly of the component. Because of the incorrect installation, the speeder spring probably shifted when the aircraft was on late final approach, and this shift resulted in large thrust fluctuations of
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Any of the above defects, usually discovered after a series of accidents, will have an effect on the airplane's airworthiness. Some major structural defects have been hi-lighted. Just as an aside, it's also useful to note that the 212 is not permitted to carry passengers in Canada, amongst other
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2006-15-12 8/29/2006 Protective liner between the passengers and the cargo. 2006-15-11 8/29/2006 Protective liner between the passengers and the cargo. 2005-18-20 10/14/2005 "FASTprop" propeller de-icers 2004-07-17 5/11/2004 Nose landing gear (NLG) 99-19-15 12/27/1999 AFM - Limitations
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restricts all C-212s to "no passengers", regardless of manufacturer, including CASA-built ones, although only three models are approved and two of those for single serial numbers. There is no indication in the
Canadian TCDS that this is due to design or quality control issues in Indonesia or in
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The high accident rate may also be related to quality control issues during
Indonesian assembly. The FAA initially refused to certify the Indonesian (Nurtano) 212 because of faulty records and poor quality control. This was eventually largely overcome by using knock-down-kits from certifiable
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92-13-51 7/31/1992 Backup
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should be able to handle thrust problems like this. There is no doubt that the Casa 212, irrespective of origin, was badly designed and many were badly assembled. The result is a high fatal accident rate, and the inevitable resulting flight restrictions in civil operations.
1302:. You said "There is no doubt that the Casa 212, irrespective of origin, was badly designed and many were badly assembled", that is your opinion, where are the refs to back it up? I am all for adding criticism, if you can cite the refs. I still haven't seen any yet. -
1235:" Sounds like a quality-control and/or design issue to me. Only two pilots died. That accident showed very clearly why passengers are prohibited on the 212 in some countries. So you are correct in observing that the 212 would be grounded by authorities. In fact,
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If you're not experienced in technical matters you may not have noticed over 30 years of quality-control warnings issued by the FAA with respect to this aircraft. The following are some of the 212's quality-control issues which have been brought to the FAA's
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places, because of its various design and quality-control issues. It's understandable that you, as an uninformed lay-person, may be unaware of these quality-control issues, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the problems don't exist.
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98-06-02 4/15/1998 Inspect
Spherical Bearings Of Aileron Control Rod 97-21-14 11/24/1997 Inspect Restrictor Pistons 97-03-13 3/14/1997 Rudder Pedal Setting Mechanisms 96-09-22 6/11/1996 AFM - Icing 96-07-14 5/15/1996
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The article is a little confusing to me in the area of service ceiling. The article states the service ceiling is 10,000 feet, then later 26,000 feet, and indicates a crash at 14,000 feet. How are these numbers explained?
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My apologies. I had just assumed that since you appear to be unfamiliar with certification and airworthiness in general, that you were an "uninformed lay-person". But then, as a "
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The aircraft does have a high hull-loss rate, but it most likely reflects the way it is employed, in high risk operations, rather than any design deficiency with the aircraft. -
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I haven't seen any refs that support that any proportion of the accidents have been caused by quality-control problems as opposed to losses due to operational accidents. -
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Is this notable? 1 out of 7 planes experiencing a "hull-loss incident" seems like a remarkably high number, but I don't know that its statistically significant. --
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Section - Ice
Protection Systems 99-04-02 3/17/1999 Inspect Fuel Pump Cover Plates For Spark Marks 98-10-08 6/17/1998
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the right engine. As a result of the right engine thrust fluctuations, the crew probably lost control of the aircraft.
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The undercarriage of the C-212 is fixed, I know this first hand and in any case you can check it out at:
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I'm a retired military test pilot, so hardly an "uninformed lay-person", so you can cease the
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C-212s of all variants had been delivered through the end of 2008 by EADS-CASA."
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http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ario2k5Fzot8&pos=9
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of the Nurtano builds. I observe, for example, that the 212 was limited to
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sources, but there are certainly some marginal 212s remaining in Indonesia!
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If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact
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Having numbers operated especially by different militaries wouldnt hurt.
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http://us.en.vivanews.com/news/read/251613-casa-212-200-aircraft-found
1436:- GeoTerrex Limited, Casa 212 (C-GILU), 2 August 1988, at Reykjavik -
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This is a developing story. But the crashed airplane is a CASA 212:
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19:This is the
1551:Sourcecheck
1444:WhisperToMe
1411:cyberbot II
1385:cyberbot II
964:WhisperToMe
927:service" -
906:—Preceding
876:—Preceding
778:Structure:
695:task forces
513:Structure:
258:Start-class
197:written in
148:free images
31:not a forum
1781:Categories
1735:Report bug
1598:Report bug
1111:attention:
689:open tasks
1718:this tool
1711:this tool
1581:this tool
1574:this tool
1514:dead link
1281:Santamoly
1242:Santamoly
1212:Spain. -
1175:Santamoly
1064:Santamoly
947:I found:
874:Cheers.
208:travelled
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1724:Cheers.—
1587:Cheers.—
1405:Resolved
987:Ntroncos
943:Accident
908:unsigned
878:unsigned
851:Untitled
739:criteria
705:Aviation
646:Aircraft
641:Aviation
474:criteria
397:Aviation
220:artefact
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1642:my edit
1537:checked
1518:tag to
1470:my edit
867:Numbers
367:on the
224:analyse
216:defence
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1545:failed
1510:Added
1417:Online
1391:Online
1277:Raduga
1030:Raduga
264:scale.
212:centre
204:colour
126:Google
1615:Ahunt
1304:Ahunt
1300:WP:OR
1257:Ahunt
1214:Ahunt
1209:A-147
1086:Ahunt
1045:Ahunt
929:Ahunt
340:Spain
331:Spain
287:Spain
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1769:talk
1619:talk
1541:true
1448:talk
1308:talk
1285:talk
1261:talk
1246:talk
1218:talk
1179:talk
1090:talk
1068:talk
1049:talk
1034:talk
1016:and
991:talk
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692:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1763:. —
1692:RfC
1662:to
1555:).
1543:or
1528:to
1504:to
1494:to
1484:to
1010:478
955:."
359:Low
176:TWL
1783::
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