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of the
Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson, and the World's Greatest Royal Mystery" (title), in "The Last of the Romanovs", in the text we get just "Anastasia" mostly and at first use, but you're expected to know who she is and and he does use "Anastasia Nikolaevna" to introduce her bio... "Anastasia: The Life of Anna Anderson" (title), "I Was Anastasia" (title, it's a novel)... book results also seem to be coming up in unexpected order. Google Ngram on "Anastasia Romanov" shows little usage.
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1629:"Anastasia (Grand Duchess)" or "Anastasia of Russia" would be less concise but more precise and probably more recognizable, altho less natural and (I guess) less consistent. If you don't like just "Anastasia" maybe something like that woule be a compromise to improve the present unwieldy and obscure title.
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rules it might be that "Anastasia
Romanov" would certainly be in the running. It contains more info than just "Anastasia" (more precise) but is still pretty short (concise), seems used a lot in sources (recognizable, natural). It's not consistent though, and it's technically wrong to the extent that
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Googling in books, we get "Anastasia: The Last Grand
Duchess" (title), "Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia 55 Success Facts" (title, but whatever this thing is it looks sketchy, it might be a Knowledge mirror), "Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov" (title, kids book I think), "The Resurrection
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doesn't even mention where, when, or by whom it was originally published, or even whether it's a translation (and by whom). We don't know its copyright status either (what if it is a direct copy of a translation published much later?). These are serious concerns that apply to all the content on the
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because of course. There are 20 other
Anastasia's listed in that article (apparently it's not a super common name), and they are all pretty obscure -- a synchronized swimmer, a voice actor, an 11th century Hungarian royal, a Youtuber, a handball player, and so on. I'm confident that more people who
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When we state "per whatever" we are saying we agree with the guideline and do not consider there needs to be a change. "Parroting" would actually be repeating the guideline in full and would therefore be utterly pointless. Editors have no need to justify why they agree with established guidelines,
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compares the strings "anastasia", "grand duchess anastasia", and "anastasia nikolaevna". "Anastasia" alone is used orders or magnitude over the other two. Granted, a very good number of these are surely about the 1956 film, or the Slash song, or
Anastasia Island, or Albert Anastasia, or Anastasia
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Looks like "Anastasia
Romanov" is popular but that is actually wrong, technically, I think? In that royals don't technically have family names? Elizabeth is not "Elizabeth Windsor". But Anastasia is in the Romanov family and dynaste, and "Anastasia Romanov" is a reasonable way of shortening
1719:, the controlling policy, says "Knowledge does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)..."
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1255:(literally: grand prince)." That is to say, this title was traditional for members of the imperial family. As there was not a grant to her as an individual, it cannot be considered substantive. The word "duke" is an oddity of translation as there is typically no duchy involved.
1440:: "Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used." You can see what other reference works call her in the second paragraph I wrote above.
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So you saw the Ngram above, let's look at google. Googling "Grand
Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia", looking at the results in order (discounting Knowledge and mirrors), and going by the name used in the title or at first introduction, let's see...
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That's the end of the the second page. Results are all over the place. This is the order google gives, seems odd, I don't know why sites like Town & Country are so high. I see that FWIW Britannica's article is titled just "Anastasia" and opens with
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is improved. Mick Jagger didn't sing "Grand
Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia screamed in vain" because he knew he didn't need to for people to know whom he was talking about. Adding "Nikolaevna" in particular just obscures and confuses.
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The guideline calls it an "honorific prefix," so that's the terminology I used: "In general, honorific prefixes—styles and honorifics in front of a name—in
Knowledge's own voice should not be included, but may be discussed in the article."
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is a policy, thus tends to trump other rules (such as conventions for aristocrats specifically) and it lays out the Five
Virtues of article titles: Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness, and Consistency (see link for
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is not defined by notability. Royal categories are sovereigns, consorts of sovereigns, royals with a substantive title, and other royals. She’s not in the first three, so as a royal she is in the third. The general guideline
1592:, it's pretty clear "Anastasia" is how she is commonly denoted in the English-speaking world, same as "Madonna" for Madonna for Maddonna Ciccone and "Cher" for Cher Bono and so on. The proposed mononymic title would be less
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to the suggested move because it makes the subject of the article less clear. Anastasia Nikolaevna could be singer or football goalie, I would have no idea of what the article is about if I saw it in a list and so
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Good grief. Talking to walls much? I request that comments by parrots not be considered to be serious. Maybe I'm wrong, but at least address the issue. It's not a vote and I call on the closer to consider that.
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precedent and consensus, since they are just that (i.e. established). It is therefore entirely addressing the issue and does not merit the borderline insulting response that it got. A reading (or rereading) of
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978:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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That is a title, not an honorific like “her majesty,” so I think the Other royals rule 1 probably applies. The articles about her three sisters should be added to this move request, for consistency. —
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While the primary sources claimed to be reproduced on alexanderplace.org may have been reputably published originally, there is no way to verify the content on the website itself; for example, the
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Yankova, etc etc etc, so it doesn't prove anything. But still. IMO it's not much, but maybe a small data point in favor of just "Anastasia" as a title, depending on your guess of what it shows.
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Also, like all guidelines, it says it is "best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply". If you're ever going to have exceptions, Anastasia would be eligible you'd think.
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Anastasia is very famous as a mononym. The films, the books, the references... they all use just "Anastasia" and you're assumed to know who is meant. Her pic is front and center in the article
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Oh, I see. But even though you have found a clause in the guideline to support it, I still think it is a bad title. The proposed form is certainly more common in the RS, as you can see
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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and others; the English kings is clearly considered the primary topic for the string "Henry VIII". Well ditto for Anastasia. So on
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Yes, but the second paragraph of that page opens with "General policy on the naming of Knowledge articles can be found at
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and related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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so that might not be appropriate either. These refs should reflect the unreliability of the website or be removed.
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that you cite says nothing to imply that a title should be used because the subject is “far too notable” either. —
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All in all I still think "Anastasia" alone is maybe best, but "Anastasia Romanov" is a close second I guess.
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matters (which is not much, things are named by what people call them not what they "should" call them, per
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are looking for our Anastasia than all those others put together. Whether enough for our girl to be the
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or something). This works because Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia is really really famous.
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Can you quote or describe the exact guideline that describes “grand duchess” as an honourific prefix?
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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which states "where they have no substantive title, use the form '{title} {name} of {country}'."
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Instagram via Pinterest: "Династия Романовых" and "Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia"
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That (if accepted) is kind of case closed, but let's see how this conforms to the Five Virtues:
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people searching on just the string "Anastasia" are looking for the tragic Grand Duchess. So,
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in article titles, and that page barely mentions honourifics (as “courtesy titles.”. —
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This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as Today's featured article on
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1810:"Anastasia who was a princess of the Romanov Dynasty" or whatever, I suppose.
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This subject is far too notable to be treated as an "other royal." Here is
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But since we've got a RM open, let me suggest that instead the move be
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Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on
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is hard to know, but consider: most (not all) people looking for say
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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So long as you are confident that you read a true and accurate copy
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Britannica (another part): "Anastasia" (this is the actual article)
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most common form of the name used in reliable sources in English...
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Getty Images: "grand duchess anastasia nikolaevna of russia"
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Salone Prive: "Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia"
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page twice
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1612:. Usually not, but disambiguation is often required, thus
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know her full name and will go there. I would think that
1318:. I think the relevant part of the naming convention is
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Haaretz.com: "Russia's Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov"
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33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1800:..." So, that's good enough for Britannica...
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261:. Even so, if you can update or improve it,
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25:Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia
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1780:Alamy (images): "Grand Duchess Anastasia"
2153:High-importance FA-Class Russia articles
1762:Russia Beyond: "Grand Duchess Anastasia"
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2014:The discussion above is closed.
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975:Women in Religion WikiProject
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897:This article is supported by
833:and see a list of open tasks.
746:This article is supported by
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42:Put new text under old text.
1774:Pinterest again: "Anastasia"
1618:Henry VIII, Count of Waldeck
684:Knowledge:WikiProject Russia
514:contribute to the discussion
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1995:See above re consensus. --
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50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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581:now archived
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2068:WP:SAYWHERE
1983:Herostratus
1899:Herostratus
1849:Herostratus
1664:Herostratus
1631:Herostratus
1622:consistency
1602:Consistency
1590:Naturalness
1480:WP:CRITERIA
1407:honourifics
1293:", as does
1195:move review
1159:Phabricator
659:WikiProject
576:peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
2092:Categories
2023:FAR needed
1997:Necrothesp
1942:Necrothesp
1874:Necrothesp
1606:Henry VIII
782:Eastern O.
391:column on
254:identified
2076:JoelleJay
1794:Anastasia
1691:Richiepip
1560:Anastatia
1555:Anastasia
1548:details).
1533:Anastasia
1528:Anastasia
1291:Anastasia
1204:not moved
578:which is
523:Biography
456:Biography
381:Main Page
281:, and on
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1938:WP:CIVIL
1907:contribs
1895:unsigned
1870:WP:NCROY
1687:WP:NCROY
1456:WP:NCNOB
1438:WP:TITLE
1278:" while
614:Religion
427:FA-class
369:Promoted
331:Reviewed
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2070:states
1923:Andrewa
1915:discard
1598:concise
1594:precise
1510:opposed
1466:Michael
1424:Michael
1403:MOS:HON
1370:Michael
1365:Comment
1161:and on
1113:on the
1008:on the
863:on the
708:on the
610:History
383:in the
309:Process
203:90 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2039:buidhe
1961:Oppose
1919:!votes
1866:Oppose
1715:. And
1683:Oppose
1657:Hmmm,
1645:99to99
1572:by far
1484:99to99
1442:99to99
1419:titles
1411:styles
1389:99to99
1348:99to99
1316:Oppose
1301:99to99
1289:says "
1282:says "
1274:says "
1257:99to99
778:Saints
681:Russia
663:Russia
605:Russia
433:scale.
350:Listed
312:Result
126:Google
2055:DrKay
1872:. --
1831:WP:AT
1525:just
1324:DrKay
247:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2080:talk
2064:very
2001:talk
1987:talk
1969:talk
1946:talk
1927:talk
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1903:talk
1878:talk
1868:per
1853:talk
1695:talk
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1668:talk
1649:talk
1635:talk
1508:I'm
1488:talk
1446:talk
1409:and
1393:talk
1352:talk
1342:here
1328:talk
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1261:talk
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700:High
657:, a
512:and
306:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1513:on.
1105:Mid
1000:Low
855:Low
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172:·
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