Talk:Kargil War - Knowledge

4217:

was blocked. Pakistan army had subjugated the kargil and some posts which came under the dominions of India and the height advantage also went to Pakistan. Indian leader L.K Advani and many other leaders condemned this act of Pakistan. India also started to deploy its army on these areas. A mission was started having the name Vijay Operation, in which about 200,000 soldiers were mobilized by India. A serious conflict was started and many innocent people along with the LOC were killed. India attacked on Pakistan army equipped with many weapons like small guns, anti-aircraft guns and grenade launcher and air force of India also got involved. The only motive which Indian army had at that time was to remove, the Pakistan army posts, which had clearly height advantage. For that, Indian firstly targeted the Tiger Hill with full power, in this operation India managed to recapture some of the important territories. Both countries had lost many soldiers in this area. Then clash was started in Dras Sector, where India simply damaged the Pakistan army and this post was also recaptured by Indian. India faced a lot of problem from the Mujahedeen of Kashmir in every step of their planning. Many Indian soldiers had been killed by Mujahedeen. India initiated its final attack on Pakistan army on every occupied area and got about 80% of its territory back in their pockets.

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another agreement was signed namely as Simla Agreement with little modification of what was Cease Line Fire and became Line Of Control (LOC) . In this agreement both countries come to the settlement that both were to be remained in their own dominions within the area of LOC. First violation of LOC was done by India in 1984, when attack had been initiated by Indian army on Siachen and occupied 10 sq Km area across the line. Indian military showed aggression and it was a first challenge to Simla Agreement. A serious conflict was started between both countries. About six talks took place between both rivalries, in which Pakistan was at the point of view that India had to withdraw from the Siachen but Pakistan did not get fruitful results of these talks. Once again in 1988 Indian troops attacked on Qamar Sector, Pakistan’s army did respond but Indian managed to hold 10 posts within Pakistan’s territory. This was accompanied by an Indian attack on Nellum Valley route in Pakistan’s side. These consecutive conflicts proved to be an eye opener for Pakistan because all the agreement failed to prevent an Indian aggression.

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in Kashmir. Many agreements related to borders were signed between both countries like Cease Fire Line in 1948 and Simla Agreement and Line of Control (LOC) in 1972. All these agreements failed to meet the desired results because India was persistently violating every agreement and considered them of no value. She violated the agreement of LOC. It showed aggression in Siachen, Nellum Valley and finally in Kargil. There were multiple factors, which led Pakistan and India to war in Kargil. Pakistan’s army won Kargil war militarily but did not win it diplomatically as well as politically. Indian diplomats exploited the conflict and went to get support from America, in which they succeeded. Repercussions of this conflict had been damaging for Pakistan internationally and domestically.it proved that there was a huge communication gap between army and the government.

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that in same year Nawaz Sharif’s government had to depart. Weak and nominal communication between military and civilian government came in front of the picture. Even Pakistan nation had no idea that what was going on in Kargil? This war affected the image of Pakistan in international level. Pakistan was about to face many problems from international community and international community started to tilt towards India more sympathetically than Pakistan. Even international media exposed its biasness and started to publish against Pakistan and Nawaz-Clinton meeting depicted as “Pakistan will withdraw from Kashmir”. Mujahedeen took complete advantage from this situation and started to target Indian military. This conflict gave the chance of freedom fighter of Kashmir to act more organized and properly.

1104: 1120: 3009:, amongst other assaults, slowly tilted the combat in India's favour. The Pakistani troops at Tololing were aided by Pakistani fighters from Kashmir. Some of the posts put up a stiff resistance, including Tiger Hill (Point 5140) that fell only later in the war. Indian troops found well-entrenched Pakistani soldiers at Tiger Hill, and both sides suffered heavy casualties. After a final assault on the peak in which ten Pakistani soldiers and five Indian soldiers were killed, Tiger Hill finally fell. A few of the assaults occurred atop hitherto unheard of peaks – most of them unnamed with only Point numbers to differentiate them – which witnessed fierce 2737: 5723: 5586: 5084: 4855: 4131: 3697: 5433:"Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 3803:"Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 3381: 5436:"If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 1245: 320: 3002:. While 4590 was the nearest point that had a view of NH 1D, point 5353 was the highest feature in the Dras sector, allowing the Pakistani troops to observe NH 1D. The recapture of Point 4590 by Indian troops on 14 June was significant, notwithstanding the fact that it resulted in the Indian Army suffering the most casualties in a single battle during the conflict. Though most of the posts in the vicinity of the highway were cleared by mid-June, some parts of the highway near Drass witnessed sporadic shelling until the end of the war. 4224:

must withdraw from Kargil. Indian diplomats were completely exploiting the existed conditions during Kargil conflict. The image of Pakistan came in international community as a hostile and terrorist country. On the other hand, America was not happy of Pakistan nuclear program. Another most important factor was Nawaz Sharif’s unprecedented tour to America and unscheduled meeting with American president Clinton. This made Pakistan a culpable state and it also played a role to tilt American towards unilateral approach.

1072: 710: 3798:"Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 1368: 5194: 1169: 1148: 1277: 1088: 443: 364: 3110:(LGBs). Moreover, aiming index solutions had to be found by all aircraft of the IAF to cater to reduced air density and concomitant variation in ballistic trajectory when hitting targets at heights 6,000’ to 18,000’ AMSL and keeping outside any MANPADS launch range. The receding snowline in June laid bare the hitherto camouflaged Pakistani positions, opening them up to non-stop day and night attacks by the Mirage 2000 and, subsequently, all aircraft. 343: 1179: 2137:. An invasion of one side over the other was repelled, pre-war land control and leadership was restored, there were no "war winners" or "war losers", no peace treaties, war reparations, etc. It is even technically incorrect to call this a war (even though sources use this word) as it was actually a minor conflict, almost can be called a border skirmish (temporary occupation of some uninhabited land by a few hundred troops). It was not a declared 4548:.' The point was attacked by the Indian army because Pakistan had taken control of it from India and they wanted it back, along with all the other areas mentioned above (CITED IN THE ARTICLE). Additionally, that is the conclusion that the whole article comes to, it is not an isolated sentence just there to inform readers about a random claim by one side. Are you claiming that I travelled back in time and submitted my 'original' research to 957: 2869: 6034: 5762: 5670: 5449: 5250: 5003: 4801: 4175: 4088: 4018: 3927: 3654: 2688: 764: 632: 591: 539: 618: 521: 223: 734: 490: 3690:"Pakistan soldiers perched at peak 5353 metres, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking the official end of the Kargil war. At least some of them must had wry smiles on their faces, for although peak 5,353 metres is inside the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC), Pakistani troops held the mountain through the Kargil war and continue to do so today." 642: 1029: 1018: 1007: 996: 985: 611: 3060: 265: 1334: 5430:

a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

1555: 915: 879: 6092: 5921: 5476:'Pakistan still occupies key Drass point', by Praveen Swami. DRASS, 10 August 2000 - THE HINDU ‘6 Kargil heights in Pak control’. NEW DELHI, 30 August 2000 - Tribune India 'Pakistan occupying six Indian peaks, claims MP' by Josy Joseph. NEW DELHI, 30 August 2000 - REDIFF 'Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV' by Nitin Gokhale. NEW DELHI 31 May 2010 00:36 IST - NDTV 5309: 4063: 5808: 4256: 811: 790: 4516:

points, which in turn import problems on your part. The Knowledge's entry on Point 5353 describes it as a "mountain on the Line of Control", and not "across the LoC" as you falsely claim. As far as the result in the infobox of the article is concerned, it's drawn from reliable scholarly sources and is backed by a unanimous consensus of editors. By repeatedly resorting to

2942: 3813:"It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 1815:

of a "war" effort that had led to a diplomatic as well as a military victory.p. 177: For India, Vajpayee had led the military and diplomatic effort that had won the Kargil "war." For the world, he had done so while keeping India's armed forces on their own side of the LOC in Kashmir and he had prevented the outbreak of a multi-front general war with Pakistan.

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claim that Pakistan won the war militarily and lost it diplomatically. In reality, the military and diplomatic tides turned against Pakistan in tandem.p. 66: For all its bravado, Pakistan had failed to secure even one inch of land. Less than a year after declaring itself a nuclear-armed power, Pakistan had been humiliated diplomatically and militarily.

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he is mentioned in the KRC section do not address this specific question and hence I am asking this here for clarification. Was it only a separate army inquiry that named him, or even the KRC report? And if so, where is here mentioned in the report? If it was only a separate army inquiry, than the current wordings in the article are misleading.

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Kargil conflict has its root in the past, when two agreements were signed between India and Pakistan. First military exchange between India and Pakistan over Kashmir established in 1948 having the name of Cease Fire Line. It was considered international border line between both the countries. In 1972

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The terrain of Kashmir is mountainous and at high altitudes; even the best roads, such as National Highway 1D from Leh to Srinagar, are only two lanes. The rough terrain and narrow roads slowed down traffic, and the high altitude, which affected the ability of aircraft to carry loads, made control of

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This article explains the difference between civilian and military modes of the US GPS. It made little difference to the IAF. The MiG-21 and 27 had no navigation equipment of note and were employed for area bombing rather than pinpoit bombing, the latter task being allotted to the Mirage 2000 when it

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re-establishment of status quo ante is the doubtless indicator that neither side was to be legally recognised as winner or loser. Similarly, continuing encroachments and repels on many borders (Armenia-Azerbaijan, Iraq-Turkey, the two Sudans, etc.) do not mean that the repelling side "won the war". —

1814:

p. 130: the BJP could go to the people as the party that had undergirded India's victory over Pakistan in the Kargil 'war'.p. 131: Another of India's institutions that had benefited from India's victory in the Kargil war was its military establishment.p. 140: He went on to take credit for the conduct

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During the winter season, due to extreme cold in the snow-capped mountainous areas of Kashmir, it was a common practice for both the Indian and Pakistan armies to abandon some forward posts on their respective sides of the Line of Control (LOC) and to reduce patrolling of areas that may be avenues of

5429:

Quotes "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make

4624:

Agree with Aman.Kumar.Goel. And can we stop with the narrow and disproportionately undue focus on Point 5353 already? Point 5353 is not even on the Indian's side, it's the peak through which the LoC passes near the Dras area. Pakistan's occupation thereof does not mean an encroachment upon the other

4481:

The BBC article is one of the multiple sources provided and shows and Indian confirmation that Pakistan did not withdraw from all areas it captured on the other side of the LoC and is supported by the numerous other sources mentioned. The article, specifically the infobox, which is the first thing a

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That is not what the source says. It says that "GPS data" was denied, more accurately, it would have been satellite data, perhaps even fine-resolution satellite images. The need for these was pressed by Brig. Surinder Singh long before the Kargil war, but the army and the political leadership gave a

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Which exact section and paragraph of the Kargil Review Committee report mentions Brigadier Surinder Singh by name? I will go through the original report for his name more carefully but if someone else can find out faster than that would be of great help. The current news sources in the article where

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The Hindu wrote this in August 2000: "Pakistan soldiers perched at peak 5353 metres, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking the official end of the Kargil war. At least some of them must had wry smiles on their faces, for although peak

4659:

There you go, another example of why the territorial changes were not 'none'. I am not trying to engage in chest thumping for the Pakistani military if you believe chest thumping is the purpouse of these discussions. The article on Point 5310 says, 'Some analysts see it as an Indian retaliation for

4465:

You keep making obscure references to "users" but all you've linked to so far is to an old post by a chronic sockpuppeter. We do not entertain socks' posts. They have no credibility here. You seem to be just obfuscating an issue regarding how exactly are the "sources" you have used here relevant to

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Kargil conflict in 1999 was generally portrayed as one of the big events in the relation of two neighboring but hostile countries_ Pakistan and India. For Pakistan, it was a defensive strategy, which ultimately went towards a permanent conflict. This conflict erupted along the Line of Control (LOC)

3681:

Why is there no mention mention of the several peaks Pakistan captured in 1999 and continue to hold on to this day? Recapturing one peak (Tiger Hill) and claiming overall victory is ridiculous, but then again so are imaginary surgical strikes. It seems like this was initially reported in the Indian

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In many vital points, neither artillery nor air power could dislodge the outposts manned by the Pakistani soldiers, who were out of visible range. The Indian Army mounted some direct frontal ground assaults which were slow and took a heavy toll given the steep ascent that had to be made on peaks as

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Routledge is a publisher and reliability is primarily determined by the author and their sources. Leaving that aside, the two sources are not even comparable in this case. Your new source quotes an estimate without attributing it to anybody, while the older source explicitly attributes it to United

1987:

p. 4: The Indians hoped to capitalize on both their military victory at Kargil and the subsequent coup that deposed Nawaz Sharif and thrust Pervez Musharraf into power in order to prevail over Pakistan in the larger Kashmir dispute. p. 5: despite its victory in the Kargil war, the Indian government

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p. 27: It was not so much that India won the Great South Asian War but that Pakistan lost it.p. 53: The story of the Kargil War—Pakistan's biggest defeat by India since 1971 —is one that goes to the heart of why it lost the Great South Asian War.p. 64: Afterwards, Musharraf and his supporters would

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article. There was no territorial changes in the end in this Kargil war. It did not damage Pakistan greatly either. In the end it was a status quo. It was India victory in 1971, where pakistan got divided, but not in 1948, nor in 1965, nor in this 1999 Kargil war. All these wars were status quo or

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Why is there no mention mention of the several peaks Pakistan captured in 1999 and continue to hold on to this day? Recapturing one peak (Tiger Hill) and claiming overall victory is ridiculous. It seems like this was initially reported in the Indian media but then hushed up to avoid embarrassment.

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other, fellow editors, and by labelling them as "it cell" working for "government" to "spread propoganda". As far as the banned sock is concerned, it says on his userpage that he is banned from the English Knowledge and hence nothing related to him is to be entertained. Surely you checked it given

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because as a result of this war, attacking Kashmir is a whole lot easier for Pakistan (but that is an issue to deal with later). And so what if Pakistan denies controlling those areas? Pakistan denies ever sending their army into the war and says that everyone was a freedom fighter. Why would they

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Kargil War ended up with a lot of casualties from both sides. About 587 soldiers were killed of India and roundabout 387 soldiers were killed of Pakistan. Repercussions of this conflict were devastating for Pakistan than India. Inability of politicians can be seen during the war and the result was

4223:

At the end, Pakistan withdrew from Kargil because of the pressure of America. American role in this conflict was an obvious fact. It looks like that America was playing neutral role in this conflict but the reality stands somewhere else. American adopted a unilateral approach and that was Pakistan

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For Pakistan things were going wrong and she started to realize that this is the time to deter the Indian bellicosity. India attacked Nellum Valley on regular basis and for that Pakistan responded and started to attack Dras-Kargil road, Where India faced much difficulty because Indian supply route

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On June 17, Mirage 2000s destroyed the enemy’s main administrative and logistics depot at Muntho Dhalo in the Batalik sector using 1,000-pound dumb bombs with both demoralising and paralysing results. Through the last weeks of June, the Mirages, armed with LGBs as well as with "dumbs", repeatedly

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It was in this type of terrain that aerial attacks were called for. The Indian Govt cleared use of offensive Air Power only on May 25, with the caveat that IAF fighter jets were not to cross the Line of Control under any circumstance, for fear of undesirable escalation. Surprisingly, there was no

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supplied by the US. The initial Indian attacks were aimed at controlling the hills overlooking NH 1D, with high priority being given to the stretches of the highway near the town of Kargil. The majority of posts along the Line of Control were adjacent to the highway, and therefore the recapture of

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The infobox says that Pakistan withdrew from all positions on the LoC, while this has been proven wrong by not only independent and Pakistani sources, but also Indian sources. This has also been discussed by users before me, who have cited those many sources. Interestingly, I have already written

1857:

India was not deterred from launching a successful counteroffensive on its side of the LOC by the possibility of a Pakistani first use of nuclear weapons; and won the Kargil war both at the military and diplomatic fronts. India could have won the war much faster and less bloodily by attacking the

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During the winter season, due to extreme cold in the snow-capped mountainous areas of Kashmir, it was a common practice for both the Indian and Pakistan Armies to abandon some forward posts on their respective sides of the LOC and to reduce patrolling of areas that may be avenues of infiltration.

5030:

This article is not at all neutral and a disrespect to wikipedia overall and its neutrality policy. I see many indians trying to defend this undermining the neutrality policy and only putting the indian side and not the pakistani version, e.g war is also remembered each year in pakistan and many

4907:, first wikipdia works on RS, not "neutral", something which is neutral to you can be biased to other and if there is any dispute it's sorted out with discussion. Now enlighten please which specific information you think cannot be backed by RS, keep in mind the table is a summary of whole event. 4515:

It is easy to once-over the veracity of what you're saying by just glancing at the articles. And neither the BBC article nor the Knowledge's article show what you're claiming. A random politician's "accusations" don't tantamount to statement of facts. Your reply shows you are ignoring the major

4388:

It has almost been 2 days and it seems that the community has no objections to correcting the infobox. I will still wait a third day to address any objections and then will correct the infobox with relevant sources, since this level of inaccuracy on such an important conflict should be corrected

4358:

A solution. Fix the results in the infobox to reflect the reality: That Pakistan withdrew from all captured areas except those mentioned above, and that India remained in posession of Kargil. The victor could be disputed, similar to Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, or not mentioned at all, similar to

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In order to address the emerging situation, the briefing note continued, a spectrum of new weapons, mainly heavy artillery and missiles, was urgently needed. In addition, the briefing note called for the use of 'one air OP (Observation) fl(igh)t for obs(ervatio)n and dir(ection) of fire /casevac

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The Indian Army's first priority was to recapture peaks that were in the immediate vicinity of NH 1D. This resulted in Indian troops first targeting the Tiger Hill and Tololing complex in Dras, which dominated the Srinagar-Leh route. This was soon followed by the Batalik-Turtok sub-sector which

1943:

Pakistan had been humiliated. The military defeat was compounded by the diplomatic isolation of Pakistan, which was now viewed internationally as the aggressor....In any event, Kargil was a military and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan and for democracy and led to the military coup that deposed

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policymakers were of the opinion that Pakistan's defeat at Kargil did not imply the abdication of its traditional objective of weakening India. Rather, the defeat at Kargil was only likely to catalyze the Pakistani imagination in more fervid ways and precipitate a search for more novel means of

5621:

I'm confused by two contradictory pieces of information in the infobox. Under result we have "India regains possession of Kargil", yet under territorial changes we have "No territorial changes". If the former is correct, "India regains possession of Kargil" should be moved into the territorial

2288:

This article says that Kargil enjoys a "temperate" climate: cool summers with frigid nights, and long cold winters where the temperature often reaches -54° F. That is NOT a "temperate" climate. In a temperate climate, a temperature of -25° F is extremely cold, and is a rare event. This article

4596:

will do you no good. You're not going to convince me or anyone of your edits with this attitude. You would do well to read my above comments again, then read your own quotes again and if you don't get it still, you should get off the page altogether. It's also not a good idea to brush aside a

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and helicopter gunships striking insurgent positions. On 27 May, a MiG-27 strike aircraft, piloted by Flt. Lt. Nachiketa was lost to engine failure, and its escorting MiG-21 fighter, which circled the area to locate Nachiketa, was shot down by a shoulder-fired Stinger missile. Nachiketa was

1965:

The Kargil operation's failure was costly for Pakistan from both a political and a military standpoint. The adventure contributed to Pakistan's reputation as a revisionist, irresponsible state. In addition, Pakistan lost hundreds of soldiers, it was diplomatically isolated, and it experienced

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still holds, or that any territorial changes took place. For now, both parties – their respective ministries (MFAs) – are adamant in saying that no territorial changes took place in 1999 and the Simla Agreement still holds with no need to update it. Trying to prove otherwise based on (very

2179:

I think I should have clarified better that there is a distinction between being defeated in a military operation (which is what the majorirty of above quotes say) and being the side that legally lost the war. One concerns military technique, the other concerns legal proceedings. The legal

3114:

struck the heavily defended Tiger Hill. Interestingly, only 9 LGBs were used in this war, 8 by the Mirage to take out command and control bunkers, and one by a Jaguar, as the dumb bombs proved highly effective. The Mirage 2000 proved its worth in this war, albeit without enemy opposition.

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Please change the word "killed" to either "casualties" or "killed or injured" at citation no. 11 as the source of this citation uses the word 'casualties' which refers to people killed or injured in a war or accident according to all of the major dictionaries including Oxford, Cambridge,

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captured but the MiG-21 pilot, Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja, was killed by his captors and his body returned with two close-quarter bullet wounds. The next day, an Indian Mi-17 helicopter with four crew was also lost to Stinger SAMs. Tactics were changed immediately to preclude similar losses.

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The infobox (and parts of the article) are flat out wrong at the moment, and must be corrected as quickly as possible. However, I will refrain from making any edit while others reply to this section. If there are no suggestions/objections, I will go ahead and fix the infobox as soon as

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The false optimism of the architects of the Kargil intrusion, colored by the illusion of a cheap victory, was not only the main driver of the operation, and hence the crisis, it also was the cause of Pakistan's most damaging military defeat since the loss of East Pakistan in December

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During the winter season, due to extreme cold in the snow-capped mountainous areas of Kashmir, it was a common practice for both the Indian and Pakistan Armies to abandon some forward posts on their respective sides of the LoC and to reduce patrolling of areas that may be avenues of

1988:

could not crush the Kashmir insurgency, and could not even prevent attacks in the heart of the Indian state.p. 20: more specifically, Pakistan's willingness to escalate violence in Jammu and Kashmir to dangerous and possibly war-inducing levels, despite its recent defeat in Kargil.

4470:- a mountain feature on the LoC or its concomitant controversies -- they've been dealt with in that article. The BBC article has to do with Pakistan's formal denial to an Indian opposition party member's unsubstantiated charge of occupying border peaks. So what are you on about? 2720:)This link is for reference. A person's opinion has no value if he has been declared a liar according to article 62. I suggest you allow me to change the number of Pakistani casualties told by Nawaz Sharref . I hope you accept my request. Yours sincerely Global Reporter100 1588:

As a part of my current focus to accurately reflect the correct results on "list of wars" articles, I was thinking of changing the results of this page but later I thought of notifying/discussing first. The war ended as Indian victory. I will try discovering more sources.

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Thus far, a number of editors have supported that the results should state "Decisive Indian victory", in accordance with the sources, so there is a clear consensus on this. I've also found another reliable source for this and have made changes in the infobox accordingly.

2434:(casualty evacuation) to be loc(ated) at Kargil'. It also demanded the deployment of a remotely piloted vehicle, among other things, and a regular supply of aerial photos and satellite images. All these, it is worth noting, were indeed used, once the 1999 war broke out. 2193:

I would like to read some reliable sources that would lend support to your overview. Remember that this war was more than just skirmishes and was different in each aspect than any other war. There was status quo, was Pakistan was defeated given their failure to annex

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for the government, even against opposition parties. If you still insist on keeping the current territorial changes result, then the least that can be done is separating the claims into two, like Indian official/army claim = no changes, xxx claims yyy change etc.

1879:

While the end state of the conflict appeared to point to an Indian victory over Pakistani aggression, the nature of the combat operations in Kargil highlighted numerous shortcomings in the combat readiness of India's conventional forces in the post-Pokhran II

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To conclude, Kargil war for Pakistan was a Defensive-offensive approach but it failed in both. A clearly won battle on military basis ultimately was lost badly on diplomatic level. Pakistan had to pay the price of this both, internationally and domestically.

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Diethelm Weidemann in his analysis of the recent Kargil conflict between India and Pakistan. As one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat, Weidemann accentuates the erroneous Pakistani assumption of the inherent superiority of Pakistani soldiers over Indian

4562:

I am still waiting for proof of that user's sockpuppetry. So far, you are the only one who has objected to this correction and a 'consensus' doesn't really mean much anyway considering that India who has the largest internet presence in the world, the

2508:

seems to be the most reasonable option to add this information about "denial of GPS data" and development of indigenous SATNAV. The idea may have existed before but this event was made it a reality, I don't see any solid reason not to mention this.

5789:

Result chance to Strategic Pakistani victory. India failed to recover all of the land it lost to Pakistan when Pakistan first instigated the conflict. India captures 90 percent leaving Pakistan with 10 percent more than they started war with

1944:

Sharif. Benazir Bhutto claimed, with some exaggeration, that: 'Kargil was Pakistan's biggest blunder. Most objective analysts agree that the Kargil incident was a failure, although Musharraf adamantly continued to claim that it was a success.

4688:

Their IP address indicates they are Canadian, a neutral nationality in this, eliminating any Indo-Pakistani bias. Their userpage does not say anything about being banned, so attacking them with baseless allegations isn't helping your case.

6223:. Putting a comment on the talk page does not mean bypassing previously established consensus and creating a de-facto one. If you want to change from 2018 consensus, do an RfC, and challenge on WP:RS and Consensus. Not personal whims. 5999: 5356:

I am surprised that the article has no mention of point 5353 which remains in Pakistan's control, and still it is mentioned of indian victory in the info box. As a user mentioned already in the talk page, but he received no replies,

5852:

You can find this line in the article "Responding to this, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf said, "It hurts me when an ex-premier undermines his own forces", and claimed that Indian casualties were more than that of Pakistan. "

3876:

http://www.ipcs.org/event-report/3rd-ipcs-round-table-discussion-on-the-kargil-crisis-524.html#http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/with-pakistans-determination-to-prolong-kargil-offensive-india-revises-time-frame-of-war/1/254326.html

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once again, for a good job of culling the sources. I would also like to note that this was a war between two nuclear powers under a nuclear umbrella. The norms for gauging such a thing are quite different from traditional wars. --

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States Department of State which demonstrates that it is an independent estimate. The author Ravi Kalia could have been quoting anybody's estimates and there is nothing in the source to show that it is an independent estimate. —

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joined battle. The GPS was not required for LGBs or for carpet bombing with 4 or 6 x 250 kg dumb bombs. The US Govt did deny India the military version of the GPS, but the civilian version was adequate for high-level navigation.

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to get rid of something that's reliably sourced. You still haven't explained why you pluralized "users" when you were in reality really alluding the banned sockpuppeter's arguments using non-scholarly military-history sources.

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The Indian Army probably needed the military version, as they were trekking through areas which could have fallen in zones not accessible to one frequency of the GPS, at times both, due terrain. The Military version was not

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Respected Sir/Madame, I request you to allow me to edit this web page because a few claims made by Nawaz Sharref have to be removed. Nawaz Sharref has been declared corrupt and a liar by the supreme court of Pakistan. (

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You can find a sentence "Responding to this, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf said, "It hurts me when an ex-premier undermines his own forces", and claimed that Indian casualties were more than that of Pakistan."

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nearly every infiltrated post increased both the territorial gains and the security of the highway. The protection of this route and the recapture of the forward posts were thus ongoing objectives throughout the war.

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Could you change the security settings so that nobody except the Knowledge officials can edit pages. This will play a big role in making Knowledge a more reliable site as it is currently banned in many institutions.

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Is there any evidence that I am quoting a 'sockmaster'? All their userpage(s) has told me is that they are a Canadian and that's it. No indication of any ban. Plenty of sources already. I'll find more if you really

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Indian victory or decisive Indian victory giving the large amount of high quality sources supporting such. Not to point that Pakistani politicians such as Nawaz Sharif also agreed that war was defeat for Pakistan.

1349: 153: 2283: 2223:: Reliable sources appear to overwhelmingly state that India decisively won the Kargil War. If a small number of sources say otherwise, we could briefly note that in the article body, but not the infobox. -- 1111: 897: 5888:

According to Article, during the Kargil war the Pakistan Prime Minister was Nawaz Sharif and Army Chief was Pervez Musharraf, but above it reads that Pervez Musharraf was Prime Minister which is confusing.

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has a done a commendable job in compiling all the reliable source about the Kargil war result. After having a careful look at the sources, It is clear that the result section should state "Indian Victory".

3047:. Such a move would have involved the Indian troops crossing the LOC as well as initiating aerial attacks on Pakistani soil, a manoeuvre India was not willing to exercise fearing an expansion of the 5856:

According to the article Pakistan Prime Minister was Nawaz Sharif while Army Chief was Pervez Musharraf during Kargil. But the above line contracts the facts by calling Musharraf as Prime Minister.

3793:"Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 4484:

There is a whole article on point 5353, for example, that states it is under Pakistani control. Pakistan did not withdraw from all areas across the LoC and in fact gained a valuable strategic area.

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Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif officially announces the Pakistan Army's withdrawal from Kargil following a meeting with POTUS Bill Clinton. Indian forces subsequently take control of Dras.

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I was thinking the same thing myself. Almost every other article on past military conflicts also follow this standard so I don't think this is really up for debate if the answer is this obvious.

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The territorial changes as a result of the war are not 'none'. Point 5353 is just one example of that. Reliable sources including Lt. Generals and analysts support this, it isn't just my opinion.

4273: 1079: 889: 3808:"If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000) 3419: 3031:

high as 5,500 metres (18,000 ft). Since any daylight attack would be suicidal, all the advances had to be made under the cover of darkness, escalating the risk of freezing. Accounting for the

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While the Indians had suffered heavy casualties, their military and political victory at Kargil was a galvanizing factor for Indian pride and determination not to yield to Pakistani pressure.

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In any case, this map is inappropriate because the conflict was not in the entire district. Secondly, the fighting was not limited to the Kargil district either. (There are some mentions of

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It is noteworthy that the Indian Army moved robustly toward raising its close air-support assets following Kargil. India won the battle, but then victory should never have been in question.

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on NH 1D, inflicting heavy casualties on the Indians. This was a serious problem for the Indian Army as the highway was the main logistical and supply route. The Pakistani shelling of the

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Request to add 286 Medium Regiment (KARGIL) that participated in the conflict and also has been awarded with many unit citations and personnel decorations during the period of conflict.

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release a statement that contradicts their own narrative? And is there any evidence that the user is a sockpuppeter? Even so, does that change the credibility and content of his/her

4672:. In fact, your repeated allegations and claim of 'thourougly debunking' are yet to be validated, considering that I am saying that there were territorial changes after the war and 3762: 3095:

The LGB capable Mirage 2000 fleet was inducted on 30 May, and used extensively, armed initially with 250 kg "dumb" bombs, as technical problems had to be resolved to permit use of

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Are these events disputed by Pakistan or any other sources? If so, we can attribute the events as "according to Indian sources" and present the Pakistani version alongside it per

4641:, a strategically located mounting peak, also inside the Pakistani administered part of the Kashmir, is under India's possession, as also a feature adjacent to the Kupwara sector. 333: 4629:, the very next mountain peak south-east to Point 5353, along the same ridgeline in the area, and also on the LoC, doesn't mean to an encroachment upon the Pakistani territory. 4432:

on this with sources and I did not want to repeat what they said and clutter the talk page up. These are a good place to start. I will use these along with other sources such as

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which is under War progress especially the table it is totally based on a primary source. The neutral source is already cited but nothing from it is mentioned in the section.

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Come on, Kashmiri. You have been here long enough to know that that doesn't wash. Are you saying that all the reliable sources given here have no clue and you know better? --

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The section referred to above is an unhappy mix of Indian Army and Air Force efforts. I propose to bifurcate the two as shown below. I will wait until March 31 for comments.

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is not neutral at all it has a neutral source cited to it but what the neutral source says is not in the section. The section mentions the content which is on this website

6024: 5986: 3841:'Fact and fiction on Point 5353; The defence establishment's response to the controversy over Point 5353 plumbs new depths' by Praveen Swami. 30 September 2000 - FRONTLINE 1343: 2605:

The editor who edited this 2 hours ago, has blatantly ignored the fact and edited this to satisfy his and his country people's ego.His name happens to be younis chandio.

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played a vital role, with Indian gunners making maximum use of the terrain. However, its success was limited elsewhere due to the lack of space and depth to deploy it.

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Though the PM of Pakistan Nawaj Sharif declared withdrawal of his forces at Conference with Bill Clinton, but the ground reality was not according to his declaration.

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how overzealous you were concerning him that you even pluralized him as "users" and his only post which was never entertained by anyone as "discussions" and stuff...

6582: 5970: 2721: 411: 147: 4668:, I have not targeted a single editor but given a reason to doubt the validity of any quantity based decisions made involving India on the internet, supported with 6542: 4123: 4051: 3644: 2493: 2389: 2308: 970: 851: 6132: 5903: 5839: 5831: 5163:

above I thought it better to start this discussion than potentially edit against consensus, but as there has been no reply it seems consensus is for the change.

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is a mountain peak, a kilometer inside the Pakistani side of the LoC as the crow flies in Chorbat La and is controlled by India since the Kargil times. South of

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Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat"

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needs reworking. The Air Effort needs to be written as a stand alone topic. It could be re-integrated with the main body subsequently. I will do so next week.

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There was no "Kargil Air War", the air combat was not notable enough to be included as standalone. Further, I did not find any RS calling it "Kargil Air War".

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5,353 metres is inside the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC), Pakistani troops held the mountain through the Kargil war and continue to do so today."

4289: 4165: 3752: 430: 6572: 5189:, I was wondering if it would be more appropriate to show this image (of the Kargil district in Indian-administered Kashmir) in the introductory infobox: 4564: 4150: 4078: 2527: 2518: 2332: 1684: 4556:

and repeating their credibility is pointless considering your replies are ignoring all of that, I will state what I am saying again in very simple words:

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increased civil— military tension, which contributed to the October 1999 coup. And as we have seen, in the end, Pakistani forces withdrew from the area.

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As an Indian or Pakistani or Whatever nationality, it does not matter. What matters is what WP:RS say, and what is consensus among WP editors. As per

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Once India regained control of the hills overlooking NH 1D, the Indian Army turned to driving the invading force back across the Line of Control. The

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If any Indian editors have objections with this, I encourage them to respond here and not engage in edit warring (what is the point of a talk page?)

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provided access to Siachen Glacier. Some of the peaks that were of vital strategic importance to the Pakistani defensive troops were Point 4590 and

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I am willing to believe it was a mistake while they were cleaning up previous un-neccessary topics, so I will paste a short excerpt of my message:

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Does anybody else have an idea how to integrate this info? I'm not sure where it should go, but it certainly seems important enough to be included

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You can't lend more credibility to sockmaster by speculating his nationality. Can you find any military history sources backing your claims.

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FWIW, the Indian occupation of these features caused a discernible territorial change because India continues to have possession over them.

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Yes, it is an Indian newspaper. That does not automatically make it non-neutral. Is there any content from it that you are disputing? --

4700: 4544:. Soon after the war had ended The Hindu correspondent Praveen Swami and an Indian opposition party leader, Ram Kumar Anand claimed that 2382: 557: 6415: 3043:

by the Indians could have been avoided if the Indian Military had chosen to blockade the supply route of the opposing force, creating a

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As the operation was fully underway, about 250 artillery guns were brought in to clear the infiltrators in the posts that were in the

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constitutes a return to the status quo ante. It's the same as saying that no territorial changes took place as a result of the war.

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about this here but it seems an Indian user has reverted this page claiming that what I said did not count as improving the artice.

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INDIA’S MAJOR MILITARY & RESCUE OPERATIONS By Dr. Hemant Kumar Pandey & Manish Raj Singh Published by Horizon Books, 2017

302: 5343: 5329: 4072: 4002: 3820: 3623: 3606: 6587: 6527: 6497: 5954: 5948: 5234: 5208: 4950: 4899: 4874: 4267: 3911: 3510: 2978: 2670: 2656: 2619: 2269: 2232: 2050: 1254: 690: 5126:. Ordinarily I would just be bold, but since this has been discussed above thought it sensible to start a new discussion first. 4936: 4916: 2563: 2188: 2167: 2149: 2021:, the result parameter should accurately describe the outcome, it should accurately reflect what the sources say to comply with 1692: 1659: 6612: 5729: