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existed in and why; variation by civilization and ethnicity and why; the various constraints on each being a function of traditional laws of the region, and the military and economic and developmental differences that caused those differences in government. Why does this matter? This article is a sort of hearsay collection of complaints. Monarchy provides predictable change in power, and limits competition for power, thereby forcing people into the marketplace for survival, prosperity, and status. Most revisionist criticisms of aristocracies and monarchies are due to the land (Farming) being the only means of increasing productivity, and welfare and wars as a system of economic entrepreneurship, just as economic wars are conducted today with money and law, they did with money and arms. With europe's success and lack of stagnation like other civilizations due to distribution of power into competitors forcing a market for government. Monarchies were more tolerant of people and differences, but intolerant of use of politics or war to obtain power (unlike today). Why is it the dynastic monarchies lasted for so long and modern states so short? Why were taxes 1-3% under monarchies and 50%+ today? Why couldn't people participate in government (ignorant, illiterate, lazy, petty, superstitious on a level we can't imagine). Who fought in wars and why? (It was profitable. Piracy of the land. People volunteered enthusiastically.) Why do we call them sovereigns, yet also state every man is sovereign in our traditional law? Were monarchs and policies influential or just what we talk about when common law and custom determined people's actions far more so? Where are cites from the say, the
Routledge History of Monarchy? Any work of comparative government? And the hundreds of other sources?
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argument. Yes republics can have puppet states or colonies (not precicely vassals though, or especially fiefs) but it is not about comparing monarchies with republics (the sentence about republics further below has nothing to do with this). Monarchies have historically formed special polities that republics mostly havnt, republics havnt formed states out of alliegence to a person, such as in states out of personal union; best example Spain. Just because
Andorra has the french president as protector doesnt invalidate that monarchies had this kind of association as one of its main modus operandi, republics do this only through colonization etc. and dont associate states through sharing a president, yet again as evident with Andorra, Andorra is not a part of the French republic, its more a statement about the monarchic elements of Andorra. But enough of the missplaced comparison with republics. As I said the main point is to elaborate that monarchies do often form states through personal association, constituted either as federations, through personal union or vassalage. Maybe it helps, to connect it with feudalism, a very monarchic system. But I have favoured just listing vassalage, because feudalism is a rather European system and vassalage is more generally applicable. I hope I could flash out what I mean and find a text that works for everyone.
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in my opinion quite crucial to understand the concept. The first one and a half sentences are about the special nature of monarchies compared to the modern nation state since monarchies can come into being not only as an unitarian or nation state, but also as a network of polities best illustrated by a personal union, but more frequently in history as a federation or system of vassalage. If people want to understand monarchies throughout history, and thats when they were big, then they need to understand this dimension. The second excerpt is underlining the crucial shift and conceptual difference that defines our modern world of nation states, which chose mostly the concept of republic.
1354:). The monarch can go by various titles, and little extra information or clarity is added if we include that their authority can be "proclaimed" and "recognized" by inhabiting various seats. It's a more complex way of saying the same thing, so both sentences were not needed. The other sentence I removed stated that monarchs can be bound by and rule over territories or people groups, just as can almost any ruler, so it did not seem significant. Additionally, the example title given "King of the Belgians" is functionally no different from most other monarchs. All of this, besides the over-linking of words, adds unnecessary complexity to the lead.
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know what it means by "polities" being "formed" "through personal relations to the monarch." It's not untrue, it's just that the language is very technical and it's still kind of vague. I understand how the republic ideas could be lead-relevant, although I am not sure what you mean in your comment immediately above. The part I am hesitant to add would be that republic is "opposite" of monarchy, as if it is a binary choice or a spectrum, where in fact there are many more varieties of government that aren't plotted on that bi-polar model, right? If there are sources that use the exact word "opposite," then I could be convinced.--
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individuals whose ancestry and birth has placed them within the small ruling class of the country or society in question. Even for elective monarchies (such as the Holy Roman Empire and the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth) the monarch was elected by the ruling class and elected from the ruling class, and access to the ruling class was determined by heredity: You could only be elected King of Poland if you were born to the right people. In contrast, dictators aquired power solely through conquest and/or political processes; it has nothing to do with accident of birth. --
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monarchies can be a weird conglomerate of territories, particularly in Europe and therefore the colonial world. As I said this is all a hint to the complexity of mostly (and importantly the contemporary) the
British/Commonwealth Crown, and how its relations can be understood, e.g. historically the best example is how Queen Victoria could also be Empress. So its mostly about feudalism and other political constructs like personal union. I am open for more discussion, but otherwise this is closed for me. Thank you for the constructive work.
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situation. Or perhaps the relationship between Palau, Micronesia, and the
Marshall Islands and the United States. Even if neither of those quite fit, something equivalent to vassalage is possible with republics as well as with monarchies. The only difference with a monarchy is that the "state" is a person. 2) Then I propose that you use the wording: "Monarchies were the most common form of government until the 20th century, by which time republics had replaced many monarchies." --
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last aspects are also not common, only historically, because legaly in the today common form, a constitutional monarchy, these powers are given by the constitution contracting subjects. I think the lead needs to consider the many contemporary and historic monarchies that are subnational and mostly symbolic, since they outnumber the top layer monarchies of nations and independent states.
597:, defined as "a type of monarchy common to the late middle ages period, characterized by the formation of distinct social classes. In particular, the classes of nobility, priesthood and to a lesser extent, townsfolk, would gain some representation in the government, and limit the rulers powers." The direct translation of "monarchia stanowa" would be "class monarchy" (stan -: -->
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1) A republic could conceivably have the same head of state as another republic, just as the same person could be monarch of two separate realms (personal union). And a republic could have another republic that is subservient to it (vassalage). The territories of the United States might approach that
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as 2) addressing the raised issue:"Monarchies were the most common form of government until the 20th century, when new republics were established with the purpose of abolishing monarchies (see republicanism), replacing them as the dominant form of government." ... if you have a better wording, please
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Perhaps somewhere under the "role of the monarch"? The territory vs. people could go there, maybe. The problem with the "insignia" or seats information is that it's often unclear whether these insignia or seats have an important impact on the role of the monarch. Again, if it goes in, it should be
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He sounded deeply traditional: a loyal courtier to his kings. But North Korea's communist origins mean it can't admit it has become a monarchy, so this isn't quite enough. Both the ruler, and even more his successor, have to justify their rule in some other way. This is the third factor, and it takes
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Hi I had this recently reintroduced after being taken out without proper explaination. Now it got again taken out for reasons of "unneeded" and "wordy". Well I want to defend the content of it (not the wording). So I want to put this up for discussion. I argue for thos two sentences because they are
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But my trade has its uses too, as I shall now try to demonstrate. Take Kim Jong-eun, newly crowned dauphin of North Korea. A communist monarchy: that's a strange beast indeed, and a contradiction in terms. But sociology, I contend, may shed some light here. What is going on? How on earth did it come
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1) All this is saying is that the monarch (as the representative of the state) determines how the state relates to other states. Is that really necessary to spell out? 2) "Monarchies were the most common form of government until the 20th century, at which time republics had become more common." But
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1) How is the first bit more relevant to monarchies than to other forms of government? Republics can also come into being as unitary states or as more complicated agglomerations. 2) the bit about historical commonality is already in the article. What does the sentence about republics add to this?
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I argue for the latter because: "Political system" is broader than "form of government", a monarchy can be within a larger political system and does not need to be supreme or hereditary, good example here is
Malaysia. Further mention of heredity is later in next paragraph and wording is longer. The
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English language (i.e. not the state language of a particular government). It needs to be improved. Its in reference to the powers of the monarch. In the United States we have developed the convention of saying that a national leader excercises "executive authority," and that seems to be a natural
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Hi, I edited the starting definition to reflect the explicit lifetime tenure as defining element. I am aware that many autocrats rule until their death, but only monarchs and thus monarchies have this "until death" (or abdication) rule written into law. Inheritance is only an option for succession.
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The first is a cult of personality: originated by Stalin, extended by Mao, and pushed to its extremes by Kim Il-sung. Hey, if a guy claims absolute right to rule, he'd better be special. This is what the German sociologist Max Weber called charisma: a term which has entered the language in a looser
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Communist monarchy
Communist monarchy: what a grotesque paradox. Yet there is a double logic to this. First, at the end of the day who can you trust? Especially in a culture that prizes filial piety, your own family looks the best bet. Kim Jong-il certainly thinks so, promoting not only his son but
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The further down mentioned
Commonwealth is the best example why both points are important: the Commonwealth is an association of realms under a crown/monarch, exactly what I try to state in 1) ... and calls in the Commonwealth realms for a republic are the common proposal against the monarchy (see
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I did not remove the text this time, but I agree with
Khajidha's critiques. I also do not see exactly how your comment here addresses them. The fact that monarchies can exist in these different forms does not seem essential for the lead and makes it more confusing. Most readers are not going to
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ad 1) well I can see what you mean, but its just a problem of focus. To address this we could write something like "A monarchy has the capacity to form polities through personal relations to the monarch. Beside the common organization of states as unitarian or federated states, monarchies can also
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How is it not discriminatory to deny millions of people the equal right and chance to be the head of state of their country because one family was at some stage hundreds of years ago awarded the exclusive privilege usually based on centuries of oppression and tyranny (which is how "royal" families
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Their are two historical inaccuracies about Bhutan in the article. Firstly Bhutan is mentioned as a kingdom which had never been under
European subjugation. This is false as Bhutan remained a protectorate of the British Indian Empire until 1947 and secondly Bhutan is mentioned as being a Theravada
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I think this article should not be a competition between who was the first, better to mention a few cultures who were undoubtedly part of the beginnings. The
Sumerian culture is one the generally accepted ones, and yes I checked, the only verifiable king is the one mentioned, however the Sumerian
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The only problem is that this an opinion, not fact. It can not be quantifiably ascertained, and that point of view could be criticized (considering most members of society never have the possibility to be head of state, or there isn't even that position as a separate office, such as in the United
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Does not disambiguate between chieftain (pre-roman), manorial system, kingdom (pre-christian dominance), Monarchy(christian monarchy), papal monarchy, constitutional monarchy (Secular), absolute monarchy (european), tzardom (absolute), Despotism, and the international equivalents or the eras they
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2) thanks & added; ad 1) if you argue like this then allmost no element of monarchies or republics are relevant because they are present in both, hell even communism can have monarchic elements like in NKorea, though the elements are differently crucial for the different systems and thats my
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ad 2) no my whole argument is that it is important to draw a connection to the contemporarily dominant form of government, especially because it is used as the concept to abolish monarchies, put in place instead of monarchy. I am contextualizing, not just mentioning historic conditions as in the
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PS: Previously the first part was even longer, elaborting in more detail the first issue with following sentences. These sentences had been cut because they were touched upon particularly by the now taken out sentences. The older sentences are for illustration and need not be reintroduces if not
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I'd say the defining characteristic of the monarch is that they inherit the office, as opposed to acquiring it through purely political means. That doesn't mean that pure primogeniture determines who the monarch will be, but it does mean that a) the monarch can only come from a select number of
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most monarchies throughout the ages essentially were absolutist dictatorships. Franco's rule in Spain was essentially a kingdom without a monarchy. Mussolini in Italy was prime minister under a monarch. Even the modern day constitutional monarchies are still essentially discriminatory as in that
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I am glad we found something that works for both. I integrated it now and I hope that how I (re-) integrated it in the remained text is okay and not sabutaging what you saw that works for you? I originally intended the titles not as a list, but to show why monarchs have different titles and why
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Second: In a state barely 60 years old, but preceded by centuries of Confucian monarchy and (more immediately) four decades of emperor-worship under Japanese occupation (1905-45), keeping it in the Kim family presses powerful buttons. Or to put it more sociologically, this mode of essentially
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I am sorry but you seem to not get what I am saying. 1) the sentence does not say anything about foreign policy/other states, it talkes about how the state is constituted/assembled, which is as crucial as it is for democracies to be constituted through the identification of a populace/voting
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differentiate between constitutional and absolute monarchies, as well as comparing several different methods of succession. Additionally, before adding some of your above claims to the article, I recommend gaining consensus (and providing sources) here on the talk page first. A "market" for
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From the first few paragraphs of this, there appears to be no difference beetween monarchy and dictatorship. Then come charachteristics of monarchy, none of which seem to distinguish it from other governments. Dictatorship usually has a republican government behind, but what about modern
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Last but not least, maybe there is a spot in the article where the taken out senances can be of use? Obviously I find it important to note somewhere what the senances say about the nuances of legitimation of monarchs through insignia, seats or connection to territory or people.
410:. Plenty of obfuscating jargon, too. Nor is it half as trendy as when I first got hooked, back in 1968 - when I mixed it up with Marxism. These days, subjects like psychology, history and even economics (despite our present discontents) are more highly regarded than sociology.
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The article fails to mention even any of the argument that the concept of monarchy is in itself discriminatory as it differentiates between families based on birth, asserting that members of one particular family are "higher", "nobler" or simply "better" than all others.
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ad 2) Well I know the whole thing with the history of the concept of republic is contradicting, but republic is used by many states to denote the "absence" of a monarchy. But how about this:"Monarchies were the most common form of government until the 20th century, when
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his sister - Kim Kyong-hui also becomes a full Politburo member - and of course her husband Jang Song-taek, now an alternate Politburo member as well as a vice-chair of the National Defense Commission (NDC), the highest executive body of state outranking the Cabinet.
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Yet as Weber saw, as a mode of rule charisma has problems. Unlike traditional authority - a monarchy proper, for instance - charisma is vested in just one exceptional individual. What happens when they die? The challenge, in Weber's rather ugly term, is to routinize
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with the part about "any predetermined limits on the length of their tenure," or in other words, term limits. Even without that part, though, there are many dictators in office for life who are not traditionally considered monarchs (historical examples range from
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Our people take pride in the fact that they are blessed with great leaders from generation to generation... Our people are honored to serve the great president Kim Il-sung and the great general Kim Jong-il. Now we also have the honor of serving young general Kim
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I appreciate your efforts to improve the article, as we seem to be the most frequent and consistent editors on the page recently. However, it seems as though we have very different standards for the type of information that should be in the lead. Perhaps a
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Good idea. I think this would fit well somewhere in the last two paragraphs of the History section when many countries turned away from monarchism; it would make sense to include these kinds of critiques from an Enlightenment perspective of human rights.
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The article could benefit from significant revisions, and we would welcome your help on this article, but I would ask for a more specific statement of the problems with the current version before saying yes to a complete re-write. Currently, the article
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King Juan Carlos (or King John Charles, if you wish to translate the name he assumed in office) of Spain, unlike Elizabeth II who at least has a religious investiture power, is a true figurehead. Spain is also an officially Christian state, but a
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1) that statement does not refer remotely to republics. But ok, lets reword:"Monarchies can claim realms through personal association of lands and peoples to the monarch, allowing personal association as personal union, federation or vassalage."
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Regarding the other edit of you, moving the remark about "dynastic periode", this was at the end of the sentance because also elective monarchies can build dynastic periodes. But of course it is mostly in the context of hereditary monarchies.
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Thank you very much for the elaborate explanation. I think your arguments are fine, even if I clearly have a different approach. A third opinion is allways good, but I have no problem with your edit thanks to your elaboration. All the best.
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King list goes back much further, indeed backed by written evidence. So the first pharagraph of the history sections should not be removed, they have verified entities. The rest of your edits you may put back. I Wish You A Happy New Year!(
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of North Korea; (at any rate, a monarchy doesn't have to be hereditary, it can also be elective.) he constitution states that the people are sovereign (and thus the country is a republic), rather than the sovereignty being vested in the
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I've done some CE on the "current monarchies" section, but I'm wondering where the justification is for this particular subdivision. In particular I would question the division into two sets of constitutional monarchies. Do we have a
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While it may be illegal to criticize the monarchy in certain places like Britain and Canada, its necessary that the topic have a criticism section, which will also naturally spill over into an article. In fact there appears to be a
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government? Monarchies more tolerant of differences? (than whom? when?) Many of these claims would require careful citation ... And if cited and added, they wouldn't necessarily require a rewrite of the text now in the article.--
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of Malaysia is no monarch but a simple head of state, but is still elected from the federated monarchies of Malaysia, making Malaysia an odd construct of being a republic made out of monarchies, making it a monarchy afterall?
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ad 2) the sentence about republic(-anism) puts monarchies in political context, importantly since most people live in republics and they are products and even named to signal non-monarchic. Besides its half a sentence.
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See, now that makes sense. I still feel it isn't strictly necessary to state, because we have already established that the monarch embodies the state in his/her person, but will not object to making it explicit.
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Ok how about this, turning it around, making it not a statement about federations etc, making it clear that federations etc are not a speciality of monarchies, but rather how they come to be:"Monarchies can form
663:. As monarch, she is a constitutional officer of the British state, but has no secular power, and is in fact mainly a religious leader for the recognized denomination (the UK is an officially Christian state).
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States). I wouldn't go around editing Knowledge pages on the basis of opinion. It could be phrased as a question and backed up, but it is not something that in good conscience that could be presented as fact
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men as monarchs: Barrack Obama, Vladimir Putin, Filipe Calderon, and others; and formerly Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Joseph Mobutu, Momar Al Kadaffi, Idi Amin, Milton Obote, Manuel Noriega, and others?
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Forms of monarchy differ widely based on the level of legal autonomy the monarch holds in governance, the method of selection of the monarch, and any predetermined limits on the length of their tenure."
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On the current map New Caledonia and Vanuatu shown as constitutional monarchies instead of Tuvalu and Tonga (I think, that Tonga remains an absolute monarchy). Please somebody exchange the map.
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clear to the reader how the different "seats" are functionally different rather than mostly being different terminology (and it would also have to be supported by sources, of course).--
598:(social) class in Polish), but I am not seeing anything like this in the English sources on Google Books. Any ideas? PS. On a related note, en wiki is also missing an article on the
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Do orphans have an issue that a family man places his umbral over that what he(she) has created, maintained themselves? (Beaurocrats and social anarchist mafia do, but do you?)
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back in the 1100s, and is himself elected, not appointed. This leaves the modern Monarch of Spain with no power, secular or religious, except for his symbolic significance.
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male Roman Catholic (in theory any male Christian) can be legally and validly elected Pope, although once elected he must be consecrated as a Bishop in order to serve.
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So the question is: is a rewrite possible? Is it worth it for me to invest time in updating it? Or is this kind of work subject to petty political infighting? -Thanks
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sense. Or if he's not so special, you make up stories to pretend he is. These may be ludicrous, but woe betide anyone rash enough to giggle or cast aspersions.
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Regardless of the fact that the title of the 1562-1791 Polish Commonwealth's Head of State was 'King', the sovereignty of it was considered to be vested in the
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1) Republics can also be complex systems. 2) Your proposed sentence implies that republics did not exist until the 20th century. So, no, do not insert this. --
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everyone from other families is barred from being head of state because that right is exclusively reserved for one family which is inherently discriminatory.
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This language here in the introduction is vague as to the meaning of "sovereignty, or its altogether outside of the use of the word "sovereignty" in the
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Nsae Comp, I recently made a relatively minor edit, removing this material from the lead because I believe that it is unnecessary and repetitive (diff
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are in place there. Anyway I am not quite sure which part of this article it is that you suggest improving, you will have to be a bit more specific. --
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The opening sentence states that a monarch reigns until death or abdication. However, the Malaysian monarchy has a term length of five years.
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the only part that is really relevant to this article is that "Monarchies were the most common form of government until the 20th century." --
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if the children and grandchildren from the king/queen dies/divorce then sister-in-law/brother-in-law can't be a member of the royal family.
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Dude, its never been illegal to criticize the monarchy in any of the Commonwealth Realms. Australia has a referendum on it, after all
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Regardless of whether the position of leader of North Korea has effectively been passed down from father to son (although neither
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738:"A monarchy is a form of government in which sovereignty is actually or nominally embodied in a single individual (the monarch).
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So, Queen Elizabeth II and King Juan Carlos are by no means dictators, yet they are monarchs. I hope that answers your question.
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In that case, shouldn't we amend the Article definition to say that a monarch must be partially hereditary if not directly so?
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the Head of State of the USA, and he is inarguably the very personification of Article II in the country's Constitution.
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ad 1) Ill try another wording that is less convaluted and more focused on the special dimension of monarchies (e.g.
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Which Monarchy or Kingdom is the richest in the world? and which is the poorest? Any tally of wealth by Kingdom?
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Catholic one rather than Anglican Catholic. The Pope assigns all other Bishops to their Dioceses ever since the
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On October 8 Yang Hyong-sop, a veteran Politburo member aged 85, told Associated Press Television News (APTN):
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and legal authority exercised by the monarch may differ from varying levels of constitutionally constrained (
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Yes, it is absurd to call a failed republic a monarchy or even a "quasi" monarchy. This is clearly wrong. --
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Perhaps North Korean should also be listed within this article hundred the heading of communist monarchy.:
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article, and so thus this article should have a section which addresses the topic and links the article. -
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I can go on with these examples but I believe this is enough to remove that disputed part again. Thanks
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The British Queen does indeed have some (not much) political power, i.e. residual powers as part of the
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Removed. Interestingly enough in Footnote 2 it has been stated that North Korea is *not* a monarchy. --
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It is not illegal to criticize the British/Canadian monarch in the United Kingdom nor in Canada. --
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By this broad definition, you could argue that all heads of state are monarchs if by another name,
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which is way older than these examples and shows clear evidence of monarchy before these examples.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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realm of power. She appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury, and he in turn is the head of the
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and particularly become polities through personal union and vassalege."
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the reference that states that in the beginning of its own argument).
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North Korea is a republic; what does that have to do with anything?
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is a political system in which supreme authority is vested in a
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Monarchy, does NOT create My Enemy, it creates, "My Arch, and?"
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Why is Asiana the map of jarod? I think this version is better:
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Knowledge level-3 vital articles in Society and social sciences
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The map of European monarchies has two identical categories.
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Buddhist nation whereas it is actually Vajrayana Buddhist.
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rule throne king/queen candidate, there are two options:
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Knowledge vital articles in Society and social sciences
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the sequence child and gender sex (from above to below)
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B-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
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citizens. Please anyone? My english cant be that bad.
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In defense of recently taken out sentences from lead
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Cool to have a comparison of wealth between Kingdoms
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2164:Wiki Education assignment: Political Sociology
1222:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
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565:21:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
490:13:42, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
454:15:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
327:Template:WikiProject Politics
318:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
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937:Rule king/queen monarch
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610:for the time being). --
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148:free images
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2128:References
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