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from a NY Times article, or a book, or a cartoon, so long as the example was
English. It won't surprise you that the easiest places to find the term "visiting professor", when I googled it, were academic websites. I do not, as it happens, consider advertisements on the LSE website as an authority on what the LSE thinks good style is, let alone what Knowledge should consider good style! The website is not what I would consider specialized literature, it is not (I wouldn't think) written by specialists or even really written for a specialist audience. I can just about see why, if I adopt a very cynical posture, that you would think I was somehow trying to dazzle you into submission by invoking weighty authorities. I was not.
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used between "small" and "form factor". No hyphen after form, because multi-word nouns don't take hyphens, as in "a pre-World War II movie". So "a small-form factor PC" could be considered properly hyphenated, but it does not lead to smooth reading. Maybe this is why newspapers and industry publications generally do not use any hyphens in "a small form factor PC", and trying to stuff hyphens in there will probably lead to unhappiness. The current page name would be better with two hyphens and even better with none. As it is, it looks like it is about a form-factor PC (whatever the heck that is) that is small. The lede defines SFF, and it might be a good idea to use "SFF PC" exclusively in the rest of the article.
728:, which says "The specialized-style fallacy (SSF) is a set of flawed arguments that are used in Knowledge style and titling discussions. The faulty reasoning behind the fallacy of specialized style is this: because the specialized literature on a topic is (usually) the most reliable source of detailed facts about the specialty, such as we might cite in a topical article, it must also be the most reliable source for deciding how Knowledge should title or style articles about the topic and things within its scope." If you consult a good dictionary, you will see that "professor" and 'visiting professor" are common nouns.
696:. To quote the first link from the LSE, e.g. "The School may confer the title of Visiting Professor or Visiting Professor in Practice for a defined but renewable period on persons of appropriate distinction whose connections with the School are appropriate to the visiting title." So, I really think that it ought to be Visiting Professor for the same reason that I would raise an eyebrow at someone saying that LBJ was a "former vice president of the USA". However, I see from your profile that you're an editor of incredible experience, and so I wanted to ask you in case I was mistaken!
724:
person can be Prime
Minister of the United Kingdom. If "of the United Kingdom" gets dropped, then the capitals get dropped, so "Theresa May became prime minister in 2016" is correct. The MoS mentions "a formal title for a specific entity", so I do not change to lower case in "the James Barr Ames Visiting Professor of Law at Harvard Law School"; that's specific. Raise your eyebrow all you want, but in Knowledge, "former vice president of the United States" is as it should be, in lower case. Quotes from the LSE carry no weight about capitalization in Knowledge; see
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owe each other. Perhaps you are too used to these questions being cynical exercises in pedantry by ill meaning people. But I honestly wanted to better myself as editor of a page I have in recent years taken much care to improve. I was not precious about the particular set of words you changed (I did not even write them), made no attempt to undo the change, and instead explained that I was sincerely sure you knew better and asked for help.
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indefinite article), and is not a reworded description". One of the examples it gives is "Theresa May became Prime
Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016." I thought that, in the Quentin Skinner article, "He has been Visiting Fellow at the Research School of Social Science at the Australian National University (1970, 1994, 2006); Visiting Professor" and so on was a clear application of this principle. But I may be wrong!
1123:
consensus of editors has decided that unnecessary capitalization prevents this encyclopedia from looking professional. Your mention of no wrong way is apparently a shortening of "There is no wrong way to edit
Knowledge as long as you follow guidelines and policies and work to improve our articles." You omitted "follow guidelines". If you ignore the MoS you can expect other editors to make corrections (read
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787:
You should not be feel insulted or offended. I intended this as an explanation for you and also for the many dozens of editors who watch my talk page, and especially for future editors who will (not 'might') question my capitalization changes in the future ā I hope I can just refer to this discussion
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Yes, I'm very sure. Search with DuckDuckGo (which pays attention to hyphens) for "pre-world-war-ii movie" and then "pre-world war ii movie" and see what comes up. None of your examples involve multi-word nouns. I can't think of any unhyphenated multi-word nouns that pick up a hyphen when an adjective
748:
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning for me. However, I must also candidly tell you that your response is the only occasion (and I have perhaps just been too lucky till now) that I have felt talked down to by a fellow editor and treated without the appropriate respect that editors
1122:
When I correct an article it is not to make a point about a previous editor being stupid; it is to help bring the article up to WP standards. If you take it as an insult, that's your issue. The MoS clearly indicates that WP's style is to not capitalize "the
Institution", and it says that because a
723:
There is no comparison between "Theresa May became Prime
Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016" and "Clement G. Hodges became visiting professor of history in 2016". Any number of universities can have visiting professors, and any one university can have more than one, for all I know, but only one
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have?" ā there is no slam-dunk right answer, and the closest I can come is no hyphens at all, as used in most sources I could find. Apparently, AI has not yet caught up with me; I asked
Copilot (at bing.com/chat) about this case of hyphenation, and it said that "I bought a small-form-factor PC" was
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Are you sure about "a pre-World War II movie"? I thought the rule was to use hyphens throughout a compound modifier, as opposed to between the adjective and noun, because lots of compound modifiers don't even have an adjective and a noun (ease-of-reading considerations, slowly-but-surely strategy,
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I don't wish to get into battles. I just get a bit frustrated when someone jumps in on the work you have spent many hours putting together, whilst trying to get detail right, and add citations, and to comply with everyone's pet topics of adding nbsp, or endash, or capitals, or whatever, etc., only
1076:
The MoS says caps OK for a "shorter but still specific form", but "the
Institution" is not a specific form; lots of things can be referred to as "the institution". The MoS shows the example "The university offers programs in arts and sciences", even in an article where it is clear from the context
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The consequence of this is an inevitable temptation to take what you have said far less seriously. I have resisted that, and instead consulting with greater care and diligence the MOS, and indeed further
Knowledge articles (e.g. on the US vice presidency), and found that you are correct. So I must
752:
It's all well and good to tell me that only one person can be PM of the UK, with an open mind I can interpret that as you just giving me an example of the rule rather than patronising me. Likewise, 'raise your eyebrow all you want', though falling below my own standard of professional courtesy for
939:
Directly juxtaposed with the person's name, such words begin with a capital letter (President Obama, not president Obama). Standard or commonly used names of an office are treated as proper names (David
Cameron was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was
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anywhere used, and to actually advise me to look at it, is really quite something. I was not citing the LSE or any other source for their authority, I was simply citing them as examples of uses of the term in ordinary English. It would have made no difference to me whether or not the example came
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I searched nytimes.com and found "Nearly everyone wants a kitchen that has a brightly lit but glare-free work area". Your example web site has a top-level domain given out by Chile, probably not the best place for working out fine points on English usage. Knowledge is not an outlier in using this
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This is tricky, because "form factor" is a noun and takes no hyphen. It would be fine to say "I want a PC with a small form factor", or "I want an SFF PC". But if it is expanded to "a small form factor PC", "small form factor" is a compound modifier, so that would indicate that a hyphen should be
1097:
Maybe we just have to agree that things can be interpreted differently. After all, there is a clause on Wiki that does say, there is no wrong way. The article is very clearly about the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, and I will fight my corner of the use of Institution on all of the several
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Re the MOS, I was under the impression that capitalisation occurred with professional titles "hen a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or
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MOS:INSTITUTIONS says "eneric words for institutions, organizations, companies, etc., and rough descriptions of them (university, college, hospital, church, high school) do not take capitals". I think Assembly is more similar to House of Representatives or the House, not a university or church.
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you have gone through the "Visiting Professor"s and replaced them with "visiting professors". I can see why you might have done this. But I don't think it's right. Being a professor is a job title or honorific, not a qualification like a PhD. So, if you are a professor you are a professor of
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instead of reciting the whole thing again. It was meant for the least experienced editors as well as editors, such as yourself, who have extensive experience in Knowledge but perhaps somewhat less in all the nuances of WP's style of capitalization. Happy editing!
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I don't agree with your intermpretation of the MOS here. In context, Brigade is a proper name, just abbreviated to avoid redundancy. But since my interest is accuracy & completeness of content, I'm not going to get too excited about it one way or the other.
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something or in some specific context, and when the professorship is being discussed as a specific job title, it is a proper noun, e.g. "Professor of Modern History at Oxford". At Leuven, Northwestern etc. Quentin Skinner's title was "Visiting Professor".
1014:
requires for capitalization. A search within WP found "president of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers" and "president of the Institution of Civil Engineers", so "president of the institution" is obviously not a "globally unique" title as required by
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is added in making a compound modifier. I admit that my example of "a pre-World War II movie" was not entirely appropriate, as "World War II" is a proper name, and you really can't jam hyphens into it. Back to the original question ā "What hyphens should
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I disagree with that article. If you take out a word and the sentence no longer makes sense, then I think it should have a hyphen. You don't say "a owned home". wholly and owned need to be together as a compound adjective. Plenty of style guides
1045:
I am happy to accept president in lower case. However, in context of the article, the Institution is a shortened form of Royal National Lifeboat Institution, and is therefore by Wiki standards perfectly acceptable in capitalized form.
1156:
But some things are left open for interpretation, it isn't always black and white. I believe it would be perfectly acceptable to keep using 'Royal National Lifeboat Institution' every time, but isn't that just a bit over the top and
1163:
As for frustration, I do feel it is far too easy for those patrolling Wiki to maintain standards, which I fully support, to forget how much effort it takes to create pages, and maybe they should ease off a little
1019:, and "institution" is not a "shorter but still specific form". Better to just follow the MoS than to resort to contortions to circumvent the MoS in order to use capitalization that suits your own taste.
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six-hectare-limit rule). The practicality of hyphenating the whole thing is obvious: that way it doesn't read like a movie about the second war over the pre-World. Or a factor relating to small forms.
946:
Also treat as a proper name a shorter but still specific form, consistently capitalized in reliable generalist sources (e.g., US State Department or the State Department, depending on context)."
935:"In generic use, apply lower case to words such as president, king, and emperor (De Gaulle was a French president; Louis XVI was a French king; Three prime ministers attended the conference).
1167:
I leave with no bad feeling toward you whatsoever. This is just discussion. I trust the same of you to me. I have another 70+ lifeboat pages to create, our paths may cross again. Take care.
880:
Thanks for finding that before I broke a few hundred more. I have fixed them all, as well as a few that were already wrong. Nothing like a typo in an AWB rule to make your day interesting.
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No problem. I really miss AWB, in almost all other respects I'm glad I ditched windows for my personal stuff. But AWB is one of two software tools that I miss and can't run under chrome.
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You clearly stated your change was because the phrase was "the President of the Institution" and not "President of the Institution", so I corrected that, and still you're not happy.
950:
So it is perfectly acceptable to have "President of the Institution, H.R.H. Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, although with hindsight, I think I'll put it the other way around...
246:; it speaks clearly. It says that "Formal names of military units" are proper names and therefore capitalized. "Marinebrigade Ehrhardt" is a formal name; "the brigade" is not.
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correctly hyphenated, and then said that "I bought a small form-factor PC" was correctly hyphenated! When I asked about the example with no hyphens, it preferred two hyphens.
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Because I don't twist text to try to justify unnecessary capitalization. And "President of the Institution" does not appear to be a "formal title for a specific entity", as
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friendly enquiries to strangers working on the same project, may well just be jovial banter. But to actually cite a page on a species of faulty reasoning that I have
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I still think using 'Institution', on a page about the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, is perfectly acceptable. But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
459:
Hello! I noticed that you recently changed some instances of "newly-created" to "newly created". Would you mind explaining why it doesn't use a hyphen? Thanks!
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1127:); any frustration you may then feel is not the fault of the other editors. My talk page is not a good place to discuss your unhappiness with the MoS.
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I just wished to point out, I have no intentions of not complying with MOS. I make every effort to get it right. And I absolutely get your points.
603:, which governs such cases. "New York State Assembly" is a proper name, but "the assembly" is generic. Knowledge says these do not take capitals.
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could be improved. At merriam-webster.com, it has "assembly (2) capitalized Ā : a legislative body". Also, it is capitalized by newspapers.
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I think most English-speaking folks would prefer "Arizona coalition". By the way, I fixed a typo in the article in an interlanguage link.
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should be spelled in English: "Arizona coalition" or Arizonacoalition as it is in the text now. Thank you so much for your time.
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But it was not "President of the Institution", it was "the President of the Institution", so per
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I am not trying not to conform to MoS - I just don't necessarily agree with your interpretation.
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was supposed to be capitalized there because it's a proper noun. Please be careful with AWB.
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You are more than welcome to reply on my talk page. But I think we are probably nearly done.
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I noticed you were one of the contributors on the article page, so, you are notified on
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While all constructive contributions to Knowledge are appreciated, pages may be
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All best, Gulielmus (one of the happy contributors to the page in question).
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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing
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Hi Chris the spellerĀ :) I'm looking for experienced editors to interview
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I know that you are good about punctuation. What hyphens should
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still thank you for helping me to navigate the required style.
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for someone to immediately correct you, like you are stupid.
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However, if Knowledge prefers no hyphen, I guess I give in.
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Hypercorrections: Are you making these 6 common mistakes?
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style for compound modifiers; this is very mainstream.
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process can result in deletion without discussion, and
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See for example the following advertisements from the
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https://www.grammar.cl/english/compound-adjectives.htm
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You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the
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Hi Chris, Did you know that some of your edits were
168:Could you possibly proofread the article regarding
818:Apologies for the revert, fat fingers on my part.
932:Re your amendments.. As per Wiki instructions..
437:. Feel free to pass if you're not interested.
672:"Visiting Professor" or "visiting professor"
482:in the section "Hyphenating "-ly" adverbs".
676:Hello, I notice that on the Knowledge page
996:So why didn't you just delete the 'the'Ā ?
368:Hello Chris the speller, since you edited
856:turning politicians into a type of church
558:Please stop changing Assembly to assembly
123:notice, but please explain why in your
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1077:what university is being mentioned.
172:? Your help would be appreciated. --
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40:of all time.
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1136:theĀ speller
1105:Best wishes
1086:theĀ speller
1028:theĀ speller
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837:theĀ speller
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737:theĀ speller
636:theĀ speller
612:theĀ speller
599:Please see
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400:theĀ speller
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296:theĀ speller
255:theĀ speller
206:theĀ speller
1164:sometimes.
692:, and the
476:MOS:HYPHEN
440:Clovermoss
229:GHStPaulMN
158:consensus
103:has been
910:Chequers
871:Chequers
713:contribs
578:Assembly
568:assembly
564:Assembly
268:Hyphens?
52:Archives
1172:Ojsyork
1170:Martin
1110:Ojsyork
1108:Martin
1048:Ojsyork
998:Ojsyork
955:Ojsyork
953:Martin
278:Bubba73
276:have?
1125:WP:OWN
726:WP:SSF
688:, the
650:voorts
582:voorts
503:agree:
447:(talk)
127:or on
1147:Chris
1131:Chris
1081:Chris
1023:Chris
980:Chris
906:Spiel
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867:Spiel
832:Chris
792:Chris
732:Chris
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631:Chris
607:Chris
536:Chris
486:Chris
413:Lotje
395:Chris
378:Lotje
340:Chris
291:Chris
250:Chris
201:Chris
1176:talk
1114:talk
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1002:talk
972:and
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573:here
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194:Done
178:talk
926:Hi
755:not
686:LSE
566:to
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