715:. Knowledge is (supposedly) an English language encyclopedia which offers information to the "general reader." It's not meant to reproduce the language or discourse of scholars. While Calgacus is a valuable (perhaps, on Scottish history, one of the most valuable) contributor, he needs to accept that an article full of Gaelic-style names is incomprehensible to the general reader. Unfortunately, far too many Knowledge articles are bogged down in technical language (ever tried reading past the first sentence of many scientific articles), and show a major flaw in Knowledge's non-editorial system. Anyhow, I would have thought the Knowledge policy quoted above was clear, no matter how many "angliczied bastardisations" it breeds.--
299:"Alba" may not have been translated as "Scotland" at the time of Constantine II, but it is certainly so translated now. I think that, for the general purposes of article naming, it should be acceptable to translate "Alba" as "Scotland," so long as the article itself is clear that this is retrospective and possibly anachronistic.
693:. French speakers, German speakers, Italian speakers etc⊠have no problem in adapting the names of both places and people to their own language. Thus, Henry VIII becomes Henri VIII, Heinrich VIII and Enrico VIII d'Inghilterra respectively. For the overwhelming majority of English Speakers'âŠThe Gaelic Languages are unknown and
311:, although his kingdom would have been "Eastern Francia". Alba became Scotland (and we can't even clearly state when this happened), Western Francia became France, and Eastern Francia became Germany. Best to make these issues clear in the text, rather than mucking up the title over it. So I'd suggest sticking with
647:
Anglicized forms are just wrong and aren't the forms scholars generally use. Obviously the common man is going to recognize the name
Malcolm more than MĂĄel Coluim, but they'd also recognize Hugh more than Ăed and Gregory more than Giric. Enough caving in to anglicized bastardizations has already been
408:
were being given priority in recent non-specialist histories. This made me wonder what is used in schools, if this period is taught at all these days. I tried having a look at what some current history sources online did. Rather to my surprise the BBC seems unsure about whether to mention the Gaelic
295:
I don't think we should give people ordinals that aren't commonly used. "Kenneth IV of the Picts" is a neologism, more or less, and we should avoid it, just like we should avoid renumbering German
Emperor Frederick III because he was the only Frederick to be German Emperor, or call Emperor Henry II
592:
the article names of the kings of the Scots have followed that convention. However, they then go one to use the Gaelic name in the opening line (sometimes then giving the common name in
English after the word "anglicised" and use the Gaelic name throughout). This usage clearly does not follow the
565:
There appears to be two aspects to the question under discussion here. First is the seemily tricky question (at least to me) of what monarchical qualifier to use. Eg of the Picts, of
Scotland, the I of Scotland, son of so and so, etc. I wish to leave that question aside for the discussion under
467:
Well I went to school in
Scotland from the late 80s to mid 90s and do not recall anything being taught history-wise other than the Romans only got so far north and the rest was Picts and then skipping straight to the Vikings. Of the rulers mentioned in the previous debate, I am only familiar with
138:
Before weighing with an opinion, keep in mind that any decision you make will need to encompass his brother and sons; whether Giric and "Donald II" should be treated as per the subject, or as below, is an interesting question. Although I'd be happy enough to put them in the following category, it
26:
In light of some, er, spirited discussion on the names of the various
Scottish monarchs, Calgacus has asked me to repost some comments I made on his talk page with respect to devising an alternative to the standard naming procedure for the earliest persons on the traditional list of kings of
55:
Let's begin by stating the blindingly obvious. CinĂĄed is not the subject's name in Scots or Irish Gaelic as something as easy as clicking the interwiki links would have confirmed. To summarise, some possible names for this article per the various policies which might be applied are:
448:
and I see it most days. However in future there's likely to be a stronger case for Gaelic naming. It's probably wildly against guidelines, but because of the various spellings many users will come to the page via a redirect, and for someone reading the page a heading on the lines of
31:
I'd say the competing principles that must be reconciled are 1) recognizability; 2) accuracy; and 3) avoiding ridiculous artificial wikipedia neologisms (Constantine MacKenneth, for instance, would probably be an instance of the last), with the latter being most important.
142:
While considering the above, you may like to consider that "X of
Scotland" is equally tendentious for all monarchs until some arbitrarily determined point in the 11th or 12th century (the accession of Edgar is plausible dividing line and less arbitrary than most).
296:
Emperor Henry I because Henry the Fowler was only German king, and not emperor. Ordinals and numbering are often inconsistent and illogical. This is the way things go, we shouldn't endeavor to correct it. Better to avoid the ordinal than to
388:
I think exception 4 does apply to
Kenneth MacAlpin, in the sense that Kenneth I or IV would be surprising. But it clearly doesn't apply to Constantine II, because he's being called that in this conversation without anybody wincing.
507:
seems a plausible name. Would it be a ridiculous wikipedia neologism to use anglicized name for the individual's name, but the Gaelic form of the patronymic? (I'm tending towards yes...). At any rate, the problem is not so much
577:
Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of
English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second
794:
alphabet with different pronounciation rules, despite using the same characters!) Another example: if we were to be following the frankly STUPID logic of this Gaelic naming scheme, then
William the Conqueror should be called
245:
144:
675:. This is clearly how the vast majority would look for them, and expect to find them. Mention the variant spelling in the intro; if there are a whole list of other variants, in can go further down the page.
639:
619:
559:
345:
538:, plus quite a few redirects. But if that turns out to be asking too much, I put forth that Kenneth MacAlpin is the common spelling over in the States, and how I've learned of the man.
349:
329:
147:
tells us that rulers of "peoples" rather than countries "... should be "of the Goths", etc" (exception 3). Taking the subjects most famous grandson (possibilities for <name: -->
551:
541:
248:
appears not to apply, if you are going to argue that it does, please explain why you believe that point 1 ("of modern countries") does apply and why exclusions 3 and 4 do not.
808:
679:
393:
372:
524:
472:
46:
as kings of Scotland, this is something of an anachronism, making such naming problematic. It would be advisable to work out an alternate naming scheme, if possible.
661:
804:
752:
719:
498:
701:
517:
292:. In the latter instance, that the name is not a surname can be explained. For the former, it is somewhat problematic as possibly a wikipedia only construction.
72:
737:
513:
611:
I propose that we adopt a policy, derived from the general policy of giving priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, that
66:
504:
78:
655:
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would be really helpful as it would allow the reader to look at the title bar for a reminder. Anyone else think there's a case worth arguing for that? ..
632:
461:
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263:
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as least surprising name for anglophones; although use of the non-English form once in the first line is fairly common and often useful. See
274:
615:. Of course the Gaelic name should be given once as an alternative in the article on the monarch, in line with the Manual of Style.
359:
322:
50:
36:
17:
258:
534:
This all looks like it's done and such, but just chiming in here with my experience. I would indeed appreciate something like
318:
Some thought should be given to what to do with the rulers from Donald I to Donald II - I feel as though they're stickiest.
413:
381:
Exception 3 is really a proposal; it isn't even applied to the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, for whom it is intended. (See
112:
800:
42:
Essentially, the issue, as I take it, is that for at least the kings prior to Constantine II, although they are widely
409:
version, and it does look as though Kenneth is established at present. For what it's worth, here's what came up:
139:
appears that the present orthodoxy would make "Constantine II" the first king of something-other-than-the-Picts.
774:
Knowledge, and as an "original language" name in the English Knowledge. If we use the Gaelic names as the main
419:
468:
Kenneth mac AlpĂn, spelt as I have here. CinĂĄed means nothing to me, I don't even know how to pronounce it.
572:
312:
503:
Where is the accent? Is it kee-NAITH or KEE-naith? I do know how to pronounce Kenneth, however.
365:
404:
I was reviewing my position when the vote closed, as evidence was being provided that variations on
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116:
307:, although Louis III himself would have called his kingdom "Western Francia." Similarly, we have
108:
355:
Of course there were various kings Antiochus of Commagene, and perhaps of other places, as well.
340:, which shares a common namestock, from the Hellenistic and other ancient monarchies. We can use
252:
60:
589:
341:
300:
126:
84:
770:
to the English variants which we all know and can pronounce! Gaelic names can be used in the
585:
399:
229:
96:
594:
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219:
648:
done with the title; putting it in brackets next to the correct name is more than enough.
8:
308:
304:
223:
697:
to read and pronounce â some articles are virtually unreadable except to an elite few.
431:
249:
63:(chronologically the 4th Pictish king on WP whose name might be anglicised as Kenneth)
676:
285:
177:
As you might like to know how other rulers from the same time and area are handled:
103:
As you might like to know how other rulers from the same time and area are handled:
602:
Furthermore this Gaelic usage is now replacing English usage in other articles, eg
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90:
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33:
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99:(except that he didn't rule Scotland and this isn't a common way to refer to him)
616:
469:
425:
613:
Scottish monarchs should be referred to by their common name in modern English
437:
303:
just seems weird to me. For a different near-contemporary comparison, we have
148:
include Constantine, Custantin, CausantĂn, CaustantĂn), the options might be:
444:
The spelling and accents may be tricky for people: I've trouble remembering
244:
Please feel free to add to the above options. Given the the default case of
799:. It's idiotic. Someone fix it, it's a national embarrassment to Scotland.
749:
716:
352:
is quite possible. (Not in the immediate future, probably, but who knows?)
698:
544:
233:
182:
748:
You wouldn't know, reading some of the early Scottish kings articles. --
512:, which we could surely all agree on without too much difficulty. It's
566:
this paragraph and concentrate on a much more straightforward question.
215:
196:
93:(probably misleading as MacAlpin looks like a surname, which it isn't)
382:
204:
153:
II of Scotland (but he didn't rule Scotland, reliable sources say so)
786:
in order to be consistent (because remember, the Gaelic alphabet is
550:
540:
734:
87:(perhaps not so obvious, but consistent with usage elsewhere on WP)
336:"Modern countries" in clause 1 is chiefly intended to distinguish
560:
English verses Gaelic and the relationship to established policy
628:
603:
368:; but ancient royal names, so far, haven't needed a guideline.
69:(but none of the other articles actually use Kenneth, so ...)
797:
Guillaume le Conquérant (Anglicized: William the Conqueror)
778:
article names as Calgacus suggests above, then we must use
344:
because we are not likely to have to distinguish him from
485:em), perhaps pronounced by the Picts as KEE-NYOTH.
633:Frederick Louis, Prince of Hohenlohe-Ingelfingen
246:Knowledge:Naming conventions (names and titles)
165:II of Alba (the name of the place he ruled)
790:the same as the English alphabet, it is a
414:BBC - Kenneth MacAlpine - Born to be King?
169:son of Ăed (more English than mac Ăeda)
18:Knowledge:WikiProject Medieval Scotland
14:
733:. Surely this is already the policy.
426:Rampant Scotland Newsletter - 8 Jan 05
181:Contemporary "High Kings of Ireland":
107:Contemporary "High Kings of Ireland":
536:CinĂĄed mac AilpĂn (Kenneth MacAlpine)
451:CinĂĄed mac AilpĂn (Kenneth MacAlpine)
422:Kenneth MacAlpine (CinĂĄed mac AilpĂn)
23:
477:KEE-NAIOTH or KEE-NAITH (ai as in
346:Antiochus IV of the United Kingdom
328:Some thoughts on the intention of
24:
822:
575:which in a nutshell states that
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539:
210:Contemporary rulers of England:
350:Kenneth I of the United Kingdom
173:son of Hugh (even more English)
157:mac Ăeda (as CinĂĄed mac AilpĂn)
113:MĂĄel Sechnaill mac MaĂl Ruanaid
161:II of the Scots ("of peoples")
27:Scotland. What I said was...
13:
1:
809:13:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
782:as the main article name for
555:05:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
228:Contemporary rulers of York:
702:16:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
680:17:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
662:21:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
640:19:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
620:16:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
573:Knowledge:Naming conventions
255:11:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
7:
525:19:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
499:18:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
473:13:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
462:10:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
440:Cinaed (Kenneth) mac Ailpin
394:18:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
373:17:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
360:19:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
323:12:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
275:03:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
240:(Eric Bloodaxe surely) i.a.
51:18:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
37:17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
10:
827:
766:. Please change the names
753:00:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
738:11:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
720:04:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
571:The overarching policy is
313:Constantine II of Scotland
195:Contemporary Welsh kings:
121:Contemporary Welsh kings:
366:Antiochus IV of Commagene
420:BBC - Dark Age Scotland
330:WP:NC (names and titles)
191:Donnchad Donn mac Flainn
117:Feidlimid mac Crimthainn
81:(fairly obvious if ugly)
280:Several thoughts here:
61:Kenneth IV of the Picts
590:Donald III of Scotland
518:Constantine MacKenneth
342:Antiochus IV Epiphanes
301:Constantine II of Alba
284:For Kenneth I, I like
127:Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad
595:WP:MOS#Article_titles
593:Manual of Style (see
586:Kenneth I of Scotland
514:Donald MacConstantine
230:Olaf III Guthfrithson
109:Niall Caille mac Ăeda
97:Kenneth I of Scotland
520:that give problems.
220:Athelstan of England
67:Kenneth of the Picts
309:Conrad I of Germany
305:Louis III of France
224:Edmund I of England
73:CinĂĄed of the Picts
189:and the unwritten
75:(or CinĂĄed either)
780:ĐŃŃŃ I ĐлДĐșŃДДĐČĐžŃ
776:English Knowledge
635:) for examples.
505:Kenneth mac AlpĂn
438:Timeline Scotland
434:Kenneth MacAlpine
428:Kenneth MacAlpine
416:Kenneth MacAlpine
286:Kenneth mac Alpin
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85:CinĂĄed mac AilpĂn
79:Kenneth mac AlpĂn
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792:foreign language
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510:Kenneth MacAlpin
290:Kenneth MacAlpin
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238:Eric I of Norway
212:Edward the Elder
201:Cadell ap Rhodri
131:Rhodri the Great
123:Cyngen ap Cadell
91:Kenneth MacAlpin
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784:Peter the Great
637:Septentrionalis
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432:Scotsman Jan 05
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391:Septentrionalis
370:Septentrionalis
364:And we do have
338:Europe as whole
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145:Naming policy
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677:Gene Nygaard
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43:
41:
25:
234:Olaf Cuaran
183:Flann Sinna
455:dave souza
216:Ethelweard
197:Idwal Foel
617:Greenshed
470:Catchpole
383:Theodoric
205:Hywel Dda
656:ÎÎÎÎÎÎÎÎŁ
651:Calgacus
493:ÎÎÎÎÎÎÎÎŁ
488:Calgacus
269:ÎÎÎÎÎÎÎÎŁ
264:Calgacus
750:Iacobus
717:Iacobus
578:nature.
446:lĂčpadar
772:Gaelic
699:Jalipa
645:Oppose
629:Horace
604:Dunbar
522:john k
406:CinĂĄed
357:john k
348:; but
320:john k
253:(Talk)
48:john k
34:john k
764:Agree
731:Agree
713:Agree
691:Agree
673:Agree
625:Agree
584:From
546:CanĂŠn
115:plus
44:known
16:<
805:talk
768:back
631:(or
516:and
459:talk
259:here
236:and
207:i.a.
203:and
133:i.a.
788:not
735:Deb
588:to
288:or
261:by
807:)
597:).
483:th
479:ai
457:,
385:.)
332::
232:,
222:,
218:,
214:,
199:,
185:,
129:,
125:,
111:,
803:(
659:)
653:(
606:.
496:)
490:(
315:.
272:)
266:(
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