Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Romanization of Ukrainian

3659:, it feels very counter productive to use a different standard than what every single romanised sign or news report in Ukraine will be saying, not to mention the official documents such as people's passports. The advantages of the proposed system can be utilised as a pronunciation guide where necessary, but it is better to stick to the official one for the general usage. For instance after almost two decades discussing the Kiev vs Kyiv naming to now adopt a system that is now saying one to write Kyyiv, that does not sound like a good idea. Of course this won't affect Kyiv itself, it is a well rooted word in the English language by now, but this will create many an unnecessary discussion. I am also not sure it is more unambiguous. It certainly is in some instances, but there is at least one case where it is more ambiguous, that is transliteration of зг, disambiguated as zgh in 55-2010, but it will be zh, same as ж, in the proposed one. There is in fact a note about it proposing to use a middle dot to disambiguate, but that looks unusable to anything but pronunciation guides. I am also unsure about using " to represent ', seems a rather academic thing, I am not sure anyone would get how to read the name V"yacheslav vs Viacheslav in 55-2010. And if we have to cherry pick what parts of the system to use, that would be original research on our part, so it is better to stick with a system that does not make you deal with such problems. -- 95: 63: 4154:. While not active in these discussions recently those who recognize me know I've been weighing in on transliteration for quite a number of years. BGN (that is, US State Department English language preferences for common place names) switching from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" was a watershed moment. The only thing to be gained by going backwards is confusion. There is no point to transliterating Ukrainian according to a standard to make it appear more Russian-like. Conversely, if an individual prefers to transliterate their name a certain way, that is their prerogative, but it does not impact what standard is most appropriate. 2461: 2459: 4137:. Lesia Tsurenko is 2010 national standard, and it really dominates with Lesya Tsurenko hardly ever used. Marta Kostyuk is BGN/PCGN 1965, it does dominate but by a small margin, with still many sources on Marta Kostiuk. Overall quite consistently if the official spelling (typically variant used in the passport) is the 2010 national standard one, the BGN/PCGN 1965 version is barely used; if the official spelling is BGN/PCGN 1965, then the 2010 national standard spelling is still decently used. This is a clear sign of domination of the 2010 national standard — 2470: 2468: 133: 4016:. International organizations, for example, sports organizations, now increasingly use the 2010 Ukrainian national standard. A precise Google search for athletes who started their careers after 2000, especially after 2010, shows the superiority of the 2010 Ukrainian national standard over the BGN/PCGN 1965 standard: “Nadiia Kichenok” - 128,000 vs “Nadiya Kichenok” - 73,700, “Viktoriia Onopriienko”, "Yuliia Yuriichuk". That is the trend towards the preference of the 2010 Ukrainian national standard. -- 74: 3098:

should always include a name in the original script followed by a transliteration (not "transcription") into a Roman orthography, "perfect reversibility" is not a necessary feature. What you will actually find in practice is that authors of individual articles (or editors of already-written articles) will use whatever system they know and ignore "Knowledge preferences". Just look at the edit wars that have resulted from writing an IPA representation for a Ukrainian name as simple as "Kyiv". --

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consonants, which are common in Cyrillic, like “zhzh”, “shch”, and the simplifications implemented in the simplified National system seems very reasonable to me. I also value the fact that the National system is the official system approved in the Ukraine, following the work of a Committee of professionals. Having in hands the BGN/PCGN system they still found preferable to agree on a slightly different transliteration system for contemporary Ukrainian language.

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no consensus, then discussion is in order. I personally don't care what you folks decide to use for romanization of Ukrainian; all I care about that one system is consistently used. Using BGN/PCGN for some things and National transliteration system for others is confusing to readers, inconsistent, and does not allow for standardization (which is of utmost importance in a project such as Knowledge). Thanks.—

4192: 3362: 73: 80: 3890:). Since the language is actually pretty similar to Russian, sometimes other variants are also possible (e. g. Зеленський could be pronounced as Zelenskiy, as if the name was actually Зеленськiй) but are not taken into consideration despite they are easier in terms of pronunciation. Here, another thing to figure would be the double 2475: 2473: 1351:

Ukrainian people should be transliterated from Russian only in cases when only Russian-language sources are available (i.e., there's nothing in Ukrainian or English). Also to remember is that no matter what method is used, there are bound to be abundant grey areas, especially with less notable (but still notable) people.—

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in mind). If there are English-language sources, but there are too few of them or they all use different spellings, then it's a good idea to use the variant that's used by the sources covering the person's subject area and is closest to what WP:UKR would produce. And, in my opinion at least, names of

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Now both Ukraine and the UN use the National 2010 system, for all romanization. Place and personal names will mostly appear in news and references according to this system. It is very close to the BGN and National 1996 systems that we have been recommending, so differences in romanization will be few

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Be it as it may, you (as well as Kazak) should bring this up at the Ukrainian portal for discussion. Neither of you should go around changing a guideline unilaterally. Remember, this is not an article, this is a guideline, so the one thing that matters above anything else is consensus. If there is

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The current WP:UKR is not bad, it is good, and it is widely accepted: it has superseded the 1965 system for the BGN and PCGN, and has been accepted by the UN. It is consistent with use in other sources, clear, and easy to use, which is important for us, while reversibility is not (and VSL’s proposal

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as "yi", "ji", "i" alone in various articles and items, I don't see how an English reader will recognise the a word/name in one article as being the same word/name in another. I think we all comprehend that Ukrainian words/names basically go in one eyeball and out the other for Anglo-Celtic speakers

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providing the set of existing transliteration systems, and, as a next step, I see it valuable to propose a single transliteration table which summarized the preferred transliteration rules of Ukrainian of this wikicommunity. The need for such clear policy is driven in part by permanent name flipping

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There are many people in Ukraine who speak Russian, as we all know. However, it isn't clear whether we should give these people's names in Russian or Ukrainian, or both. This is especially true for article titles. Most pages that I can find provide only the Ukrainian name, even of those who grew up

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I recognize the long-standing use of BGN/PCGN in English-language Ukrainian literature. However, I don’t see valid reasons to stick with some custom-made modified BGN/PCGN system. If something has a well established name, regardless of whether it’s BGN/PCGN, or some modification of it, or something

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Use the simplified BGN/PCGN system for other proper names in prose. This is familiar from many academic and popular books, intuitive for anglophones to read, and reasonably compatible with Russian and Belarusian transliterations in Knowledge. It is a very minor change from what we do now, but our

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The official language of international communication is primarily considered to be English now. In Soviet times, the official romanization system was a European-style one, with ju, ja, je, x/ch, č, š, ž, &c. Since then it has been an English-language-style one with iu/yu, ia/ya, ie/ye, kh, ch,

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This should probably be removed. This usage is common in native Ukrainian dictionaries and readers (e.g., as Запорі́жжя), but as far as I know is not a convention for use in romanized text. Our universal way to indicate stress for any language in Knowledge is in phonemic or phonetic transcriptions

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The first thing - I'm not sure that the Wiki allows a such original scientific work. The second: I don't like any apostrophe in Ukrainian romanization. You do not need a apostrophe in words such as batalyon because the Ukrainian language has assimilation by "softness" in roots and suffixes. Beside

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While I would prefer that Knowledge use something that has been internationally adopted for X orthography to Roman alphabet, in the absence of a single accepted standard, then one should be chosen. What I absolutely oppose is a Knowledge invention (or even modification). Since Knowledge articles

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The guideline for the transliteration of the letter "щ" as "sch" makes no sense, even in the light of an "attempt to make sense to English-speakers." In literary (official!) Ukrainian, "щ" is pronounced as "shch," NOT as "sch" (which implies the Russian pronounciation of "щ"). Yes, some Ukrainians

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This change in policy would have insignificant effect on the state of pages needing edits. It may actually improve it, slightly, since few editors are aware of the policy, few people are familiar with the BGN/PCGN system it currently recommends, and new edits about Ukrainian places and people are

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This advice page has been stable for a long time and is widely used without contestation. Can we agree to promote its status? Are any changes needed for this? (Perhaps it is too detailed in its suggestions for style, &c., and a convention should be pared down to the most minimal romanization

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It should be noted that the transliteration system applies to Ukrainian establishments that lack traditional English name. Many establishments with traditional English names were historically transliterated according to BGN/PCGN or other systems, and it often results in transliteration of "щ" as

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In short, I'm advocating to nominate the National system as the preferred system of Ukrainian transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin. Somebody may say that it's too bold to call for one system for all purposes, but I see overwelming benefits of such recommendation. People say that "for every two

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No. “Ukrainian-to-English transcription system” is not a thing. There are international romanization or transliteration systems that use ž, č, š, ch/x, je, ju, ja, and there are English-based systems that use sh, ch, sh, kh, ie, iu, ia, or ye, yu, ya. The Ukrainian national system is one of the

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coincidence, because much of transliteration is universal (e.g., Taras Shevchenko). Some portion of the remainder, maybe fifty percent, have transliterations that don’t conform to this policy at all, and will have to be edited anyway. The remainder can be edited whenever someone is editing them.

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That would be the grey area I mentioned :) Frankly, there is little to be done in such situations apart from considering all sources at hand and making the choice you think is the best. If you are completely unsure, just use WP:UKR—it's not like the article cannot be moved to a more appropriate

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Ending "-iй" is not common; ending "-ий" is much more common (червона/червоний). The later is given as "-yi" is the National system, which is the best way to represent "-ий", as it looks to me. I may prefer "simya" over "simia", but, again, the idea of going according to personal tastes is very

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where readers would rather omit one of them and pronounce the plain "й", whereas the Ukrainian national standart requires to write "yi" (and an average reader, I guess, would pronounce it as "йи" due to language inconsistensies). So, I would suggest to look at other variants of romanization of

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In my view a well established system is a system (1) with clearly documented transliteration rules, and (2) with established presence in practice. BGN/PCGN, the National system, the simplified National system, ALA-LC, and Kubijovyč's system satisfy such criteria. But when you are writing about

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My inclining toward the National system is driven by the desire to use a system easily recognized by native English speakers. Based on my experience, English speakers are more comfortable with “i” than “y” when facing such letters as “я”, “ю”, “є”. English speakers are also puzzled by a set of

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I wouldn't trust the Ukrainian government on this one, funny as that may sound. If you look at the Kiev metro map, the "transliteration system" used is utterly random, erratic, and basically "от балды." I'm also fairly certain the vast majority of materials will use "shch," including those on

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1965 standard favors not differentiating languages to benefit the Russian language speakers (See "triune Russian nation" ideology, that promotes the idea of Ukrainian and Belarusian as the "dialects" of Russian). It would be a step backwards, promoting a false image of similarity between the

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Perhaps thousands of pages have Ukrainian names and words transliterated. Some portion of them, maybe fifty percent, have transliterations according to the most common name in English. Some portion of the remainder, maybe fifty percent, have have transliterations that already conform through

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I don't know, if you want to take a look at the official transliteration, the people who take care of Ukrainian passports should answer your question. They have way more responsibility than the people who create websites, who can afford to screw up and not face any responsibility for it. —

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Well, as you've already used the title using 'Gennadiy', I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. It can, as Ezhiki pointed out, always be redirected to 'Hennadiy' (which would be the correct Ukrainian transliteration). According to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, he's definitely

3470:, which are used in the English Knowledge (with some modifications). Ukrainian shares with Russian and Belarusian a lot of personal names, some surnames and other names and words, and their transcription should not differ depending on the origin or country of residence of a name holder. 1374:

from the Ukrainian Knowledge. It is just a stub at a moment, and I'll work on fleshing it out later. Regardless, I've found Hennadiy, Gennady, and Gennadiy, all in various English-language sources. He himself is a native Russian-speaker. I decided on "Gennadiy", since that is what the

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We have an existing international standard we should use that rather than cook up something new. (i'm saying this as someone who prefers yi, ya whatever in my own work and name), if reversibility is a concern we can always include LOC trans-lit with ligatures and diacritics in the

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These romanization systems employ letter-by-letter tables of substitutions to transliterate from written Cyrillic-alphabet text, as do ALA–LC and the Ukrainian National system. Yes, all four are designed to approximate the original sound using English spelling conventions (e.g. ч =

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For article titles, the spelling predominantly used by reliable English-language sources should be used (which may be based either on Russian or Ukrainian spelling, or on something else entirely). If there are no English-language sources, then the name should be romanized using the

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is designed and intended for common (international) Latin transcription and better be adjusted for use in English. The proposed changes will make the romanization system more logical, consistent and reversible, and the transcription will be more correctly pronounced.

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That Ngram is useless because it may represent 80% romanized Russian names and 18% other non-Ukrainian names. First G Books result for the respective names are authored by Yuliya Komska, US professor of German studies, Viktoriya Yakubouskaya, Belarusian artist, and

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This is incorrect. The policy says that the system "matches the simplified National transliteration system". According to the system Cyrillic "щ" transliterates as "sch". It was reflected in the policy until Kazak unilaterally changed it to "shch" on April 22,

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at the notice board, I've decided to clean up the transliteration advice to make it non-redundant, consistent with standards, and suitable to be declared a real guideline. I'll consolidate everything here, leaving behind only links or the barest summaries at

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is a common (international) latinization standard, not a Ukrainian-to-English transcription system, so it is not designed for use in English and isn't optimal for it. Transcription of iotated vowels differs word-initially and elsewhere, that's what I mean.

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pronounce it the Russian way, but why reflect dialectal or bad grammar in our spellings of Ukrainian words? Consequently, what is the point of simplifying the information for English-speakers if the information is false? I'm going to revise this policy.

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One is potential "name in sources" conflict. For about 3 decades, foreign passports issued by Ukrainian Ministry of Interior had names written in Latin this way - Andriy, Nadiya, etc. Hence whenever books, media and officials abroad cited it, it became

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1. "every single romanised sign or news report in Ukraine will be saying" — this is far from being true. And Ukrainian romanized signs, official documents and people's passports don't matter much because they are not read by a notable number of English

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This system is used by practically all English-language libraries, academicians, and publishers in the world (the British Library started using it nearly 40 years ago). When a reader sees a reference in Knowledge, the name may as well help them find it

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spelled three different ways in English-language sources. So it is unclear if we've got the article title correct here, ~48 hrs after this new system was announced by President Zelensky on Ukrainian Independence Day. Any help would be appreciated.

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in the body of an article. On the other hand, the BGN/PCGN system has a very long tradition in English-language Ukrainian literature, and is also used for other languages in Knowledge. I'm not even completely sure why, but my gut favours BGN/PCGN.

3862:. As a person who encountered multiple Ukrainians, I'd recommend considering the question of implying a new romanization standard from multiple angles, more than a plain discussion. The biggest question here is to disambiguate Ukrainian letters 3477:

and has comparable popularity in English as the 2010 Ukrainian national standard (the BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more common for Ukrainian personal names, about as common for Ukrainian surnames, yet less common for Ukrainian place names).

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1. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is generally more correctly pronounced by English speakers, which is its main advantage and should be the most important argument/criterion in choosing a romanization standard for use in English context.

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Can you expand on that or provide a reference? It’s my understanding that the Ukrainian romanization system has been used for passport names since 2010, and there was a separate passport system before that from 2007 (as outlined in

1470:, however, there would be no entry for him but for his office. My only concern at this point would be that the article only comes up in google searches under 'Gennadiy Trukhanov', but not in searches using 'Hennadiy Trukhanov'. -- 1508:). Since there’s been no objection, and the 2010 version of the National system has been officially used for all purposes for eight years now, I am going to wait another month, then be bold and change the guideline as follows: 486:

I'm not sure whether understand your last point correctly. Simplified ALA-LC and BGN/PCGN systems have been used in academic literature for decades, giving us a well-established precedent. For example, Kubijovyč's two-volume

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Transcription standards are preferred in Knowledge but are not obligatory, and prevalence in common use should be more important. And I mean that the Ukrainian national romanization system was not intended for use in English

4073:. VSL seems to be determined to continuously try to change what we have that they see as broken for "something"; without actually getting any support and instead receiving much opposition (as in other previous threads.) 2797:

Knowledge should, in all cases and for whatever writing system, stick with International Standard systems. No exceptions except in the cases where there is a commonly-used English spelling (e.g., Lviv, Kyiv, etc.).

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is practically identical to that of the very widely used modified Library of Congress method, and in fact a huge number of words are identically transliterated by these two methods. Its great consistency is a major

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Add a guideline recommending ALA/LC romanization for bibliographic entries, since this will be compatible with modern usage in virtually all English-language libraries and publications of the last forty-three years

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This is not something we should be contemplating without a LOT of input from several sets of Ukrainian native-speakers who are telling us the system needs to change. I do not see that, so suspect it does not need

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A bigger problem is "doubled" sibilants: zhzh, chch etc. I propose sch for щ (what is a bit etymological), ssh for шш, zzh for жж, tch for чч (what is a bit old fashioned, like Shevchenko's Datchyna / Denmark).--

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sh, zh (with British y-based having given way to American i-based to some extent since the British Library adopted ALA-LC in 1975). I don’t know what you mean by “standard of English readable by Europeans.” —

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As this policy stands, it explicitly states that it is based on BGN/PCGN romanization system for Ukrainian, which uses "shch" for "щ". Unless someone wants to challenge that, there really is nothing to argue

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The Rusyn system is based on the most widely used standard, the Library of Congress system and its conventional modified version. The Russian system is bad because it differs from any standard, for no reason.

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The two systems are very close. Adopting the national system across the board would have the advantage of internal consistency for all Ukrainian articles, but it has the odd-looking transliterations щ =

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The suggested romanization is the same as before, only with a clear reference to standards. I've also added some editorial advice below, which may also be applicable to romanization of other languages.

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And YI in all positions is excessive solution because any after-vowel "I" becomes Ї in the Ukrainian (exceptions only at junction of prefix and root). So, keep root-initial YI and simple I otherwise.--

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These alone appear to be a red flag straight away. More thought is needed as to whether 1. we need to change anything, and 2. How to avoid silly things like my second point when making logical rules.

2813:"Knowledge should, in all cases and for whatever writing system, stick with International Standard systems." There is no such policy, so it shouldn't always stick with and, in practice, doesn't (for 1867: 2635: 4030: 2993:

The Ukrainian national romanization system is a common system but not English-based like the British and BGN/PCGN systems are. It's just a romanization system that uses the basic Latin alphabet.

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else, we agree to use that well established name. But we need a transliteration system for something which is not well established. And for this we should better use a well established system.

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2. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more suitable for use in English and more typical for English as it employs the English spelling system, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard.

3082:(Yes, the Russian and Mongolian systems don’t follow the policy advice nor conform to any standard. The Russian system is an essay, not a guideline or policy, and should be replaced.) — 1310: 1252:

I propose that we add a guideline recommending the Library of Congress (ALA–LC) system be used for transliterating Ukrainian in references, including titles, authors, publishers, etc.

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standard as per accumulated transliterated Ukrainian corpus. Quick google search for Andriy gives "About 15 900 000 results" while search for Andrii gives "About 10 200 000 results"

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is none of those things anyway). “Was not intended for use in English” is false. It is consistent with English (the 1996 version was explicitly so), using transcriptions like ш =

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I won't diverge from the substance or spirit of current practice or the guidelines in place. But I'm going to totally rewrite the text. Thanks for your patience with my efforts.

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There is no simplification for ЖЖ, ЧЧ in the last official transliteration system: "3. Транслітерація прізвищ та імен осіб і географічних назв здійснюється шляхом відтворення

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and wouldn't be read as one of these. Instead, it will be pronounced correctly, and the transcription will be more unambiguous and reversible. Yet this spelling is less common.

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As a Ukrainian, I would just mention that, before obtainin an international passport with a Latinized spelling, Ukrainians tend to write our names/surnames in English the way

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Some has to go through the articles and to check the differences between romanizations. I will do it for district / district centers, but I am not sure I can do it quickly.--

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standard page. I found the Russian one without any difficulties & it's all laid out ready to use as a reference dependent on whether it's basic, linguistic or technical.

3699:), so, for proper pronouncing and reversibility, corrections to a chosen romanization standard should be made in any case. And correcting a transcription standard is not an 2727:

Don't want to sound rude, but I am not an expert in the Ukrainian language, ill just use the spelling of names and places that are used in the articles/reports I am citing.

1033: 2066:. Things that already are followed as guidelines should have a guideline tag, and this is a style matter so that would make it part of MoS. The page would need to move to 431: 1668: 1596: 4211: 2712:. It is also a sign that you’re making it up as you go along. We don’t need an amateur romanization system, and we sure don’t need one that’s improvised off the cuff. — 1740: 1012: 1002: 987: 1748: 2021: 1994: 1923: 1853: 1786: 3010:

Can you name some of these Ukrainian-to-English transcription systems? Why are you bringing transcription into this conversation at all? It just confuses things. —

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it, we have hardening of some consonants, so Ruchyi can't have soft readding. The "Polish" way of writing of iotateds (Aliona) is really good for the Ukrainian.

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https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nadiia%2BViktoriia%2BYuliia%2CNadiya%2BViktoriya%2BYuliya&year_start=1950&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019

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in Finland for quarter of century, and Finns suffer to read it, it's something like Андрію. Swedish-spoken Finns (ca %6 population) read and write it as Andryi.

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for details). However, for new establishments we are going in pair with the Ukrainian government which adopted the National transliteration system in 1996. --

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The table represents a standard which we can’t change. For article titles, “established systematic romanizations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred,” per

3435: 2014: 1987: 1916: 1846: 1495: 1120: 1764: 3171: 2067: 1564:, I don’t think this would require editing thousands of pages, and it probably wouldn’t require moving any, since it is subordinate to the naming policy. 1331: 1792:

I suppose this is both a naming convention (about determining spelling of titles that have no single most commonly used spelling), and also part of the

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There is a policy that standards are preferred, as I already pointed out. Rusyn does follow a standard as it’s implemented in an authoritative source.

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already. Compounding polysyllabic words/names with variations on the transliteration defeats the purpose of informing readers. I know I'm confounded.

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I propose that the official system supercede these two, unifying the romanization for general use and for place names, and simplifying the guideline.

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The word-initial transliteration of some vowels is not inconsistent, it is systematic and intended to accommodate English spelling conventions. —

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In general and as a whole, the proposed English transcription, compared to the currently used Ukrainian national romanization system, is about as

2049:- Looks proper, and it seems to be the standard of what is followed already, which is always a plus, suggesting it already has community support. 4082: 2818: 2665: 1274:

As it stands, I found it extremely difficult to find the standardised transliteration style used for English Knowledge. Compare this page to the

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What are the current romanization rules for new passports? I understood Ukraine now uses the new Ukrainian National system for passports, too.

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So Ukraine moves towards EU, not UK or US. Hence standard of English should be still readable by Europeans. Yes, it's hard - I live with name

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uses the Russian. I normally would've used the Ukrainian, but I didn't in this instance only because of his website and the Odessa website.

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likely to be entered using the National system, since that’s how Ukraine and the rest of the world officially transliterates Ukrainian.

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Another factor to take into account - Ukraine doesn't go into UK Commonwealth union. Neither it goes to become N US state. In article

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I personally prefer Nadiya over Nadiia, but compatibility with official Ukrainian documents and romanization is more important to me.

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Use the full BGN/PCGN system for precise transliteration (e.g. first line of an article). Also a minor change, becoming standardized.

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Ukrainians there are three hetmans". Currently, there is similar situation with transliteration systems. I think we better fix it.

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The British standard and BGN/PCGN 1965 in fact are orthographic transcription systems as they employ the English spelling system.

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I think that Rada website uses the Ukrainian because it is the official language, not because of his own personal choice. His own

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I've changed the page header to make it clear that this is a proposal, and doesn't correspond to current practice, with a link to

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I would propose a very minor change from the current status quo. With all of the usual exceptions (conventional English names,

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Thank you. The National System was already the rule for place names, so exceptions are probably incidental and few in number.

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RFC/vote: Switching to the BGN/PCGN 1965 standard for general romanization of Ukrainian as a guideline in the Manual of Style

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rii to Iurii - although it may seem like an impossibility, it is ambiguous without the "beginning of the word" explanation.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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languages, and a move against Ukrainians, as 1965 standard was developed not during the times of Ukrainian Independence.

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First comment is that this would require editing and/or moving thousands of pages. Someone would need to do it. Second,

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I see you’re editing the original post so not all my comments are still applicable. This is a breech of etiquette, per

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5. The BGN/PCGN 1965 Ukrainian romanization standard is harmonized (regarding the transcription of iotated vowels and

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The current romanization system would work perfect if it transliterated any letter Й as Y (ИЇ is a rare combination).

2814: 2661: 2081: 175: 949:). Maybe the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences has better recommendations for the transliterations of geographic names? 2833:

is bad (inconsistent and less reversible), and was not intended for use in English, and is not generally accepted;

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Yes, but if you look at official Rada website about the official Ukrainian-English translation, they transliterate

1321:

Russian-speaking. I feel like we should specify on this page whether to use Russian or Ukrainian transliteration.

3999:. While pre-2010 transliterations are still around, contemporary sources are switching to the 2010 standard. -- 3691:

4. All these standards don't take into account certain Ukrainian orthography features (disregard the combination

3190:

Simlarly with ю, if the preceding letter in the word before it was a consonant, it could cause someone to change

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Use the Ukrainian National system to reproduce the official romanized Ukrainian place names. We already do this.

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proposed using the National system back in 2006 (top of page), and I came around and proposed it again in 2013 (

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Is anyone willing to collaborate on sorting this page out in order to emulate the comprehensible Russian entry (

3700: 3396: 1821: 1298: 17: 1199: 3995:. The 1965 standard is too old, although it is common. The 2010 Ukrainian National Standard should be used 1959: 246: 210: 94: 62: 1282: 3688:

3. Instead of a middle dot, an apostrophe may be used as a separator character for spelling disambiguation.

3204:

I would appreciate VSL explaining where their reasoning comes from, whether they are a native-speaker etc.

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of Knowledge's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

142: 43: 3040: 2825:). In the English Knowledge it's better to use the transcription that is more suitable and more typical/ 110:(MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively. 2987: 2414: 337: 3305:

The section on indicating stress says we can use an acute accent over a vowel in romanized text, e.g.

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In February 2019 the constitution was amended to require governments to seek EU and NATO membership.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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I cannot understand why we need to change anything - nor how these changes would benefit anyone.

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latter. It is highly compatible with the other most-used English-based system, the modified LOC.

106:, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the 4220: 3728:, I am afraid there are way more disadvantages than advantages in switching to this standard.-- 3605: 2750: 2030: 2003: 1932: 1862: 1097: 1064: 145:

procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Knowledge

3953:

If you ask me, I'd wait for better transliteration system. Existing ones are below acceptable.

378:. It could also transliterate precisely just as well as BGN/PCGN could, if we decide we need 4235: 4117: 4021: 2078: 1475: 1451: 1431: 1386: 1328: 1306: 491:

uses the modified ALA-LC system for Ukrainian and Russian names, and explains it in detail.

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Not official. Knowledge suggestions, although we mainly don’t use them. I will clarify it. —

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If this can remain stable, then I will replace the redundant and out-of-place guidelines at

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standard in media and official too. Probably other novo-Latin-Ukrainian names are same too.

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as standard but allow if it dominates. As an example, two active Ukrainian tennis player:

1954:: However, even if there is overwhelming support here I might add that this should follow 1734: 8: 4274: 3733: 3589: 3290: 3256: 3241: 2870:

VSL’s advocacy of their amateur, inconsistent, and non-standard system is misinformed. —

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Has this new proposal been discussed anywhere? What is the reasoning behind the change?

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4. The BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is consistent (in the transcription of iotated vowels and

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I've moved the rewrite into place. The older version with its history can be found at

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wrong. I’m strongly advocating for sticking with a professionally established system.

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Every one of the OP’s points, 1 through 5 and the last paragraph, is simply wrong. —

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Use the Ukrainian National 2010 system for general romanization and geographic names.

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and a mix including modified LOC for the titles and names in “Ukrainian literature.”

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or hidden from plain sight somewhere on this page! Having encountered variations of

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guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Knowledge policies

4266: 4258: 4254: 4142: 4074: 3498:(2010 Ukrainian national standard, currently a guideline in the Manual of Style) 3490:

Nadiya, Kasyan, Tetyana, Tayisa, Makiyivka, Maryinka, Tavriysk, Andriy, Zelenskyy

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Seems to be a followed standard, don't see why this couldn't be a MOS guideline.

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like "-iy" into "-y" into "-yy" into "-iy", which seems to be counterproductive.

2447: 4270: 4130: 4048: 3729: 3664: 3585: 3569: 3553: 3485:Надія, Касьян, Тетяна, Таїса, Макіївка, Мар’їнка, Таврійськ, Андрій, Зеленський 3286: 3252: 3237: 3223: 2890:. And by its inconsistency I mean the varying transcription of iotated vowels. 2095: 1660: 1627: 1588: 1561: 1548: 1379:

of the Odessa city administration uses, but I'm not really sure, to be honest.

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Nadiia, Kasian, Tetiana, Taisa, Makiivka, Marinka, Tavriisk, Andrii, Zelenskyi

2616: 1419: 4287: 4244: 4180: 4155: 4134: 4037: 3838: 3824: 3788: 3763:. Our current policy is also BGN/PCGN 2019, which supersedes the 1965 system. 3747: 3714: 3647: 3629: 3621: 3581: 3577: 3565: 3505: 3318: 3166: 3162: 3125: 3030: 3001: 2955: 2927: 2895: 2842: 2677: 2631: 2612: 2531: 1793: 1467: 1339: 1294: 1159: 465: 461: 132: 2620: 511:“simplified BGN/PCGN” I’m not sure which particular system you keep in mind. 4234:

Is there anyplace one can get HELP with Ukrainian Romanization? I've seen

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According to the last official transliteration system Щ is spelt as SHCH --

2922:, this is not a phonemic/phonetic transcription system: for that we have 2477:. Moreover, the proposed transcription provides more common spelling than 327:

Fair enough, but we should discuss it some before making it look official.

4053: 3977: 3958: 3900: 3799: 3770: 3538: 3517: 3415: 3371: 3346: 3326: 3136: 3084: 3057: 3012: 2970: 2932: 2930:. This is used for romanization of written text, i.e. transliteration. — 2872: 2783: 2766: 2728: 2714: 2691: 2647: 2050: 1963: 1891: 1798: 1778: 1756: 1688: 1647: 1613: 1575: 1530: 1396: 1352: 1259: 1234: 1214: 1184: 1165: 1106: 1070: 994: 961: 494: 406: 296: 3878:

and their collocations, such as "ий" from each other by English letters

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Britannica uses ALA-LC spelling Ukraïns’ka mova in “Ukrainian language,”

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left a comment in the above topic which nobody answered in five years.--

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would render indeed Palianytsia, but external sources are not bound by

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3. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more unambiguous and reversible.

3434:, I suggest to switch from the 2010 Ukrainian national standard to the 1501: 950: 921: 917: 895: 880: 516: 477: 315: 3707: 3660: 3573: 2996:

And such varying transcription of iotated vowels doesn't make sense.

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 28 § Knowledge:UKR

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in English, the most correctly pronounced, and the most reversible.

3055:), but that does not make them transcription of spoken Ukrainian. — 1813:

RFC: Romanization of Ukrainian as a guideline in the Manual of Style

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It was not my intention to present this page as an approved policy.

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For information on Knowledge's approach to the establishment of new

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It is worth noting that the BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is preferred by

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last month and still haven't had a response from anyone. Cheers! --

166: 4209:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at 3314: 2923: 2412:(may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in 2349:(may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in 1886: 1644:

No worries. Didn’t sound like there were any serious objections.

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http://zakon1.rada.gov.ua/cgi-bin/laws/main.cgi?nreg=55-2010-%EF

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http://zakon1.rada.gov.ua/cgi-bin/laws/main.cgi?nreg=55-2010-%EF

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Is there anyplace one can get HELP with Ukrainian Romanization?

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A double apostrophe may be used when more precision is required

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The British Library switched from the BS to ALA–LC in 1975. —

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What do you mean by “varying transcription of iotated vowels”?

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As a bio, self-identification plays a large part. Considering

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For example, the proposal for ї would, I believe, change Kadi

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It's already widely used so it should really be a guideline.

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But does it have any importance for most Knowledge readers?

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No, they are not (phonemic/phonetic) transcription systems.

2463:(excluding Kyiv and Mykolaiv, which will be exceptions, per 1441: 1281:

I'm still clicking around trying to work out whether to use

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This is a policy proposal, not a policy yet. You summarized

3455:) and simple, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard. 2781:

That is not BGN/PCGN 1965, which would give Slov”yans’k. —

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After 23 days and no new comments for 18 days, there is an

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is still under discussion and I see this page as a part of

2557:. This spelling is also more typical for English and much 1523:

Continue using Scientific Transliteration for linguistics.

1063:. It's already a problem that we have that guideline and 532:

For the sake of comparison (feel free to add more words):

2472:, and 5–6 times more common for Ukrainian personal names 1721:

An apostrophe may be used when more precision is required

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existing standards for general romanization of Ukrainian

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Varying from what? The transliteration of iotated vowel

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Sorry, I apparently completely forgot about the issue.--

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to show how words are spelt, in addition to just naming

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Britannica is not considered a reliable tertiary source

3462:) with the current BGN/PCGN romanization standards for 3430:

Since there are many opinions for following one of the

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There are Knowledge's custom romanization systems for

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any of the accepted standards for romanizing Ukrainian

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Ukrainian or even create a custom variant similar to

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2. М'який знак і апостроф латиницею не відтворюються.

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Government Resolution No. 55. Kyiv, 27th January 2010

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Government Resolution No. 55. Kyiv, 27th January 2010

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current practice conforms to no independent standard.

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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The following discussion is an archived record of a

2553:. This will usually be pronounced correctly, unlike 1820:

The following discussion is an archived record of a

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Knowledge:Romanization of Ukrainian/Archive 20081024

250:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 228: 3856:

even for plain citing, not to mention changing MoS.

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No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1061:Knowledge:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic)#Ukrainian 4285: 4265:in English language sources first. If not, then 2467:), 2–3 times more common for Ukrainian surnames 1518:#Library of Congress romanization for references 3685:may and better be omitted in the transcription. 1248:Library of Congress romanization for references 3265:viiia, mrii, mrii, heroi, heroi (current) / vi 3408:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 3043:is the notation of spoken language, like IPA. 1833:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 1397:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 1353:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 995:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 962:Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) 2867:that use English orthography for the sounds. 2495:so that it won't be transcribed the same as 2419:, which may be read and transcribed back as 2356:, which may be read and transcribed back as 2068:WP:Manual of Style/Romanization of Ukrainian 1496:Notice: changing to the National System 2010 1422:. Let's just see whether an more consistent 160:carefully and exercise caution when editing. 3112:In that case, I would suggest choosing the 1956:Knowledge:Policies and guidelines#Proposals 4261:, and one needs to see whether there is a 3695:, ambiguously transcribe the combinations 3552:You may be interested in this discussion: 3515:No, BGN/PCGN 1965 would give Mar”yinka. — 1958:. It would seem this should be brought to 1771:Promoting this page to a naming convention 2984:Ukrainian-to-English transcription system 2120:Knowledge's Ukrainian romanization system 2013:Nevermind, Mzajac already put one there. 1297:)? Note that I left a similar missive on 42:does not require a rating on Knowledge's 3899:that would be more suitable to readers. 1839:(Involved, !voted support and non-admin) 1395:spelling if one surfaces in the future.— 1123:. New romanization tables are subpages: 555: 552: 549: 546: 543: 540: 537: 100:This page falls within the scope of the 3929:The hard part is that Zelenskyy became 3342:Knowledge:Stress marks in Russian words 2327:but not between parts of compound words 14: 4286: 3783:All these points are right and valid. 2988:orthographic (practical) transcription 2947:Ukrainian national romanization system 2831:Ukrainian national romanization system 2448:Ukrainian national romanization system 2150:after consonant letters (palatalizing) 1370:As an example, I recently translated 1271:Is anyone keeping this page updated? 156:Contributors are urged to review the 116:Knowledge:WikiProject Manual of Style 311:transliteration systems of Ukrainian 153:. Both areas are subjects of debate. 119:Template:WikiProject Manual of Style 31: 29: 25: 2118:Proposed amendments/corrections to 1875:Knowledge:Romanization of Ukrainian 1506:#Update to the National 2010 system 1299:Romanization of Ukrainian talk page 48:It is of interest to the following 23: 3703:and is not forbidden in Knowledge. 1200:Update to the National 2010 system 1141:/Linguistics transliteration table 165: 131: 24: 4315: 2516:viiya, mriyi, mrii, heroyi, heroi 1708:Explicit soft sign and apostrophe 1276:Knowledge Russian transliteration 1211:Questions? Comments? Objections? 244:This page is within the scope of 4190: 4170:The discussion above is closed. 3360: 2829:for English. The currently used 2109:The discussion above is closed. 1426:conventions evolve over time. -- 231: 221: 203: 93: 79: 72: 61: 30: 4215:until a consensus is reached. 2548:not after consonant letters as 2512:viiia, mrii, mrii, heroi, heroi 1587:I will reply here in a month.-- 1136:/National transliteration table 1131:/BGN/PCGN transliteration table 889:Transliteration of the letter щ 489:Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopædia 445: 4299:NA-importance Ukraine articles 4294:Project-Class Ukraine articles 3413:Failed to achieve consensus. — 3161:Morning, why don't we have an 2837:is better but also not ideal. 2508:війя, мрії, мрій, герої, герой 1843:unanimous consensus to promote 1597:16:37, 29 September 2018 (UTC) 1065:Knowledge:NAME#Ukrainian_names 1039: 442: 18:Knowledge talk:Manual of Style 13: 1: 3438:, for the following reasons: 3116:because its transcription is 1765:20:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1749:19:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC) 1669:20:21, 19 November 2019 (UTC) 1636:20:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC) 1034:15:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC) 559:Library of Congress (ALA–LC) 432:15:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC) 264:Knowledge:WikiProject Ukraine 258:and see a list of open tasks. 4304:WikiProject Ukraine articles 3997:without ad hoc modifications 2610:uses this spelling as well: 1228: 267:Template:WikiProject Ukraine 7: 4279:21:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 4249:11:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 4165:23:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC) 4147:22:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC) 4122:12:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC) 4101:18:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC) 3424:21:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC) 3380:14:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC) 2566:Заяць, Майя, Надія, Коломия 2342:енерго → Sevastopolenerho) 1557:15:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC) 1311:01:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC) 10: 4320: 4225:12:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC) 4083:14:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 4062:14:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 4042:11:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 4026:10:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 4009:01:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 3986:21:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC) 3967:19:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC) 3909:06:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC) 3843:22:29, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3829:21:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3808:23:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3793:22:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3779:19:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3752:22:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3738:16:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3719:20:48, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3669:16:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3652:15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 3634:14:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC) 3547:03:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 3526:03:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 3510:15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC) 2888:specially, i. e. by design 2792:02:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 2458:for Ukrainian place names 1807:14:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC) 1787:14:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC) 970:14:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 954:00:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 932:04:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 899:00:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 558: 338:scientific transliteration 141:This page falls under the 3742:This needs to be argued. 3681:and a quotation mark for 3492:(BGN/PCGN 1965 standard) 3355:18:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 3335:18:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 3295:17:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 3261:17:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 3246:17:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 3227:21:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC) 3214:19:35, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3172:12:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3165:for such a complex case? 3145:20:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3130:10:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3108:09:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3093:14:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 3066:20:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3035:06:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3021:01:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC) 3006:21:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2979:20:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2960:19:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2941:18:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2900:17:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2881:14:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2847:09:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2808:22:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC) 2775:13:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 2762:Romanization of Ukrainian 2755:06:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 2737:18:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 2723:03:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC) 2700:21:54, 16 July 2023 (UTC) 2682:21:11, 16 July 2023 (UTC) 2656:19:37, 16 July 2023 (UTC) 2636:12:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC) 2521:This spelling is used by 2316: 2245: 2143: 2132: 1885:, with the shortcut link 1868:16:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC) 1480:22:58, 31 July 2014 (UTC) 1455:15:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC) 1436:06:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC) 1390:20:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC) 1332:19:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC) 1162:with links to this page. 1013:23:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC) 1003:12:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC) 988:00:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC) 981:Romanization of Ukrainian 884:06:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC) 553:simplified National 1996 520:19:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC) 481:06:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC) 319:04:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC) 216: 173: 139: 103:Knowledge:Manual of Style 88: 56: 4203:redirects for discussion 4185:Redirects for discussion 4172:Please do not modify it. 3402:Please do not modify it. 2252:where it iotates a vowel 2111:Please do not modify it. 2104:12:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC) 2087:10:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) 2059:06:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC) 2036:19:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC) 2009:19:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC) 1972:13:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC) 1938:04:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC) 1900:03:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC) 1827:Please do not modify it. 1527:Please comment, or not. 1377:English-language website 1227:I have also updated the 1205:and barely noticeable. 122:Manual of Style articles 3940:Constitution_of_Ukraine 2368:(i. e. before iotation) 1342:guideline (i.e., using 1098:WP:NAME#Ukrainian names 1083:Rewriting the guideline 176:policies and guidelines 3697:пг, сг, иа, ие, ио, иу 3606:User:Orbitz stop st ro 3436:BGN/PCGN 1965 standard 2133:English transcription 1960:WP:Village Pump/Policy 1881:and supplement to the 1873:I propose designating 1733:is official rules? In 1181:I've done the latter. 340:for linguistics, etc): 170: 136: 4051:, British TV chef. — 4001:TaivoLinguist (Taivo) 3852:per above. Moreover, 3677:2. An apostrophe for 3100:TaivoLinguist (Taivo) 2800:TaivoLinguist (Taivo) 556:National 2010/UNGEGN 422:літери латиницею.")-- 169: 151:article titles policy 135: 2904:No, it is by design. 2338:ona (but: Севастопол 547:BGN/PCGN simplified 4207:redirect guidelines 4201:has been listed at 3590:User:Dunadan Ranger 3397:request for comment 3285:(proposed by me).-- 2169:elsewhere (iotated) 1822:request for comment 1606:I went and did it: 247:WikiProject Ukraine 3562:User:TaivoLinguist 3324:Any objections? — 2918:If you mean vowel 1883:WP:Manual of Style 1695:2019-11-19 20:26 z 1654:2019-11-19 20:13 z 1620:2019-11-19 19:58 z 1582:2018-09-29 16:20 z 1537:2018-07-31 19:38 z 1372:Gennadiy Trukhanov 1266:2013-06-21 16:13 z 1241:2013-05-02 02:23 z 1221:2013-05-02 02:15 z 1191:2008-11-05 03:56 z 1172:2008-10-24 22:14 z 1113:2008-10-22 22:34 z 1077:2008-09-27 06:50 z 501:2006-07-13 12:45 Z 413:2006-07-13 04:42 Z 303:2006-07-13 03:43 Z 171: 158:awareness criteria 143:contentious topics 137: 44:content assessment 4269:must be applied. 4163: 3942:there is line -- 3918:per few factors: 3701:original research 3558:User:Olexa Riznyk 3301:Indicating stress 2444: 2443: 2424: 2361: 2034: 2018: 2007: 1991: 1953: 1936: 1920: 1911: 1866: 1850: 1840: 1696: 1655: 1621: 1583: 1538: 1267: 1242: 1222: 1192: 1173: 1114: 1078: 942:Viktor Yushchenko 875: 874: 502: 414: 304: 286: 285: 282: 281: 278: 277: 198: 197: 194: 193: 4311: 4200: 4194: 4158: 3618:User:Franzekafka 3614:User:Propork3455 3602:User:Oleh Kushch 3598:User:M. Humeniuk 3481:For comparison: 3404: 3368: 3364: 3363: 3169: 3114:British standard 2643:WP:TRANSLITERATE 2411: 2348: 2125: 2124: 2085: 2020: 2016: 1993: 1989: 1985: 1979: 1947: 1922: 1918: 1905: 1852: 1848: 1838: 1829: 1741:Микола Василечко 1735:official version 1694: 1653: 1619: 1581: 1536: 1465: 1448: 1442:personal website 1416: 1406: 1383: 1362: 1325: 1265: 1240: 1231:for comparison. 1220: 1190: 1171: 1112: 1094:WP:CYR#Ukrainian 1076: 1049: 1043: 946:Slobozhanshchyna 689:Zaporiz͡hz͡hi͡a 535: 500: 455: 449: 412: 302: 272: 271: 270:Ukraine articles 268: 265: 262: 241: 236: 235: 234: 225: 218: 217: 207: 200: 199: 184:. Additionally, 124: 123: 120: 117: 114: 97: 90: 89: 84: 83: 82: 77: 76: 75: 65: 58: 57: 35: 34: 33: 26: 4319: 4318: 4314: 4313: 4312: 4310: 4309: 4308: 4284: 4283: 4232: 4196: 4188: 4176: 4175: 3886:(and, perhaps, 3426: 3400: 3390: 3361: 3359: 3303: 3167: 3118:the most common 2986:is a system of 2410:' (apostrophe) 2347:' (apostrophe) 2123: 2115: 2114: 2071: 2027: 2000: 1983: 1977: 1950:Summoned by bot 1929: 1908:Summoned by bot 1870: 1859: 1825: 1815: 1773: 1710: 1498: 1459: 1446: 1410: 1404: 1381: 1360: 1323: 1318: 1316:Names of people 1250: 1202: 1085: 1057: 1055:Proposal status 1052: 1044: 1040: 1026:Serhii Riabovil 891: 530: 458: 450: 443: 424:Serhii Riabovil 291: 269: 266: 263: 260: 259: 237: 232: 230: 147:Manual of Style 121: 118: 115: 113:Manual of Style 112: 111: 108:Manual of Style 78: 71: 69:Manual of Style 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4317: 4307: 4306: 4301: 4296: 4282: 4281: 4231: 4228: 4187: 4177: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4149: 4131:Lesia Tsurenko 4124: 4103: 4085: 4068: 4067: 4066: 4065: 4064: 4049:Nadiya Hussain 4011: 3990: 3989: 3988: 3972: 3956: 3955: 3954: 3951: 3936: 3935: 3934: 3913: 3912: 3911: 3857: 3846: 3845: 3814: 3813: 3812: 3811: 3810: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3723: 3722: 3721: 3704: 3689: 3686: 3675: 3654: 3586:User:Slovolyub 3570:User:AlexKozur 3554:User:Blindlynx 3550: 3549: 3528: 3429: 3427: 3412: 3411: 3410: 3391: 3389: 3386: 3385: 3384: 3383: 3382: 3302: 3299: 3298: 3297: 3263: 3219: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3202: 3198: 3195: 3188: 3177: 3159: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3153: 3152: 3151: 3150: 3149: 3148: 3147: 3080: 3079: 3078: 3077: 3076: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3072: 3071: 3070: 3069: 3068: 3044: 2994: 2991: 2966: 2916: 2908: 2905: 2868: 2852: 2795: 2794: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2739: 2725: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2702: 2687: 2555:ie, iu, ia, io 2550:ye, yu, ya, yo 2446:Note that the 2442: 2441: 2427: 2425: 2408: 2407:’ (apostrophe) 2404: 2403: 2396: 2393: 2389: 2388: 2369: 2362: 2344: 2343: 2328: 2321: 2318: 2314: 2313: 2287: 2284: 2280: 2279: 2266:овець → Oleksi 2253: 2250: 2247: 2243: 2242: 2215: 2213: 2210: 2206: 2205: 2170: 2167: 2163: 2162: 2151: 2148: 2145: 2141: 2140: 2137: 2134: 2131: 2129: 2122: 2116: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2089: 2061: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2025: 1998: 1962:(VPPOL). -- 1941: 1940: 1927: 1871: 1857: 1837: 1836: 1835: 1816: 1814: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1772: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1731: 1730: 1729: 1724: 1723: 1716: 1709: 1706: 1705: 1704: 1703: 1702: 1701: 1700: 1699: 1698: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1639: 1638: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1601: 1600: 1599: 1569: 1565: 1562:User:Ymblanter 1525: 1524: 1521: 1513: 1497: 1494: 1493: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1489: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1407:; 20:57 (UTC) 1365: 1364: 1317: 1314: 1249: 1246: 1245: 1244: 1201: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1195: 1194: 1176: 1175: 1151: 1150: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1138: 1133: 1125: 1124: 1084: 1081: 1056: 1053: 1051: 1050: 1037: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1015: 976: 935: 934: 890: 887: 877: 873: 872: 869: 866: 863: 860: 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3215: 3211: 3207: 3203: 3199: 3196: 3193: 3189: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3175: 3174: 3173: 3170: 3164: 3160: 3146: 3143: 3141: 3138: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3119: 3115: 3111: 3110: 3109: 3105: 3101: 3096: 3095: 3094: 3091: 3089: 3086: 3081: 3067: 3064: 3062: 3059: 3054: 3050: 3045: 3042: 3041:Transcription 3038: 3037: 3036: 3032: 3028: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3019: 3017: 3014: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3003: 2999: 2995: 2992: 2989: 2985: 2982: 2981: 2980: 2977: 2975: 2972: 2967: 2963: 2962: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2948: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2939: 2937: 2934: 2929: 2925: 2921: 2917: 2913: 2909: 2906: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2897: 2893: 2889: 2884: 2883: 2882: 2879: 2877: 2874: 2869: 2866: 2862: 2858: 2853: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2844: 2840: 2836: 2835:BGN/PCGN 1965 2832: 2828: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2811: 2810: 2809: 2805: 2801: 2793: 2790: 2788: 2785: 2780: 2776: 2773: 2771: 2768: 2763: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2752: 2748: 2744: 2740: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2726: 2724: 2721: 2719: 2716: 2711: 2707: 2701: 2698: 2696: 2693: 2688: 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2142: 2138: 2135: 2127: 2126: 2121: 2112: 2105: 2101: 2097: 2093: 2090: 2088: 2083: 2080: 2077: 2076: 2069: 2065: 2062: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2048: 2045: 2044: 2037: 2032: 2028: 2022: 2019: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2005: 2001: 1995: 1992: 1982: 1976:I've added a 1975: 1974: 1973: 1969: 1965: 1961: 1957: 1951: 1946: 1943: 1942: 1939: 1934: 1930: 1924: 1921: 1914: 1909: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1898: 1896: 1893: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1876: 1869: 1864: 1860: 1854: 1851: 1844: 1834: 1831: 1828: 1823: 1818: 1817: 1808: 1805: 1803: 1800: 1795: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1785: 1783: 1780: 1766: 1763: 1761: 1758: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1746: 1742: 1739: 1736: 1728: 1725: 1722: 1719: 1718: 1717: 1714: 1697: 1693: 1690: 1684: 1683: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1670: 1666: 1662: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1652: 1649: 1643: 1642: 1641: 1640: 1637: 1633: 1629: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1618: 1615: 1609: 1598: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1580: 1577: 1570: 1566: 1563: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1554: 1550: 1546: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1539: 1535: 1532: 1522: 1519: 1514: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1507: 1503: 1481: 1477: 1473: 1469: 1463: 1458: 1457: 1456: 1453: 1449: 1443: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1433: 1429: 1425: 1424:WP:COMMONNAME 1421: 1414: 1409: 1408: 1405:July 25, 2014 1402: 1398: 1393: 1392: 1391: 1388: 1384: 1378: 1373: 1369: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1363:; 20:27 (UTC) 1361:July 25, 2014 1358: 1354: 1349: 1345: 1341: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1330: 1326: 1313: 1312: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1296: 1291: 1288: 1284: 1279: 1277: 1272: 1269: 1268: 1264: 1261: 1253: 1243: 1239: 1236: 1230: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1219: 1216: 1209: 1206: 1193: 1189: 1186: 1180: 1179: 1178: 1177: 1174: 1170: 1167: 1161: 1157: 1153: 1152: 1148: 1147: 1142: 1139: 1137: 1134: 1132: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1126: 1122: 1118: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1111: 1108: 1101: 1099: 1095: 1090: 1080: 1079: 1075: 1072: 1066: 1062: 1047: 1042: 1038: 1036: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1014: 1011: 1006: 1005: 1004: 1000: 996: 991: 990: 989: 986: 982: 979:"shch". (See 977: 973: 972: 971: 967: 963: 958: 957: 956: 955: 952: 948: 947: 943: 933: 930: 929: 928: 923: 919: 915: 912:and not into 911: 907: 903: 902: 901: 900: 897: 886: 885: 882: 870: 867: 864: 861: 858: 855: 852: 849: 848: 844: 841: 838: 835: 832: 829: 826: 823: 822: 819:i͡ai͡eshni͡a 818: 815: 812: 809: 806: 803: 800: 797: 796: 792: 789: 786: 783: 780: 777: 774: 771: 770: 767:smii͡etʹsi͡a 766: 763: 760: 757: 754: 751: 748: 745: 744: 740: 737: 734: 731: 728: 725: 722: 719: 718: 714: 711: 708: 705: 702: 699: 696: 693: 692: 688: 686:Zaporizhzhia 685: 682: 680:Zaporizhzhia 679: 676: 674:Zaporizhzhya 673: 670: 667: 666: 662: 659: 656: 653: 650: 647: 644: 641: 640: 636: 633: 630: 627: 624: 621: 618: 615: 614: 610: 607: 604: 601: 598: 595: 592: 589: 588: 584: 581: 578: 575: 572: 569: 566: 563: 562: 536: 533: 521: 518: 513: 509: 508: 507: 506: 503: 499: 496: 490: 485: 484: 483: 482: 479: 473: 469: 467: 463: 453: 448: 447: 441: 433: 429: 425: 421: 417: 416: 415: 411: 408: 401: 397: 393: 389: 385: 381: 377: 373: 368: 367: 366: 365: 357: 353: 350: 349: 348: 347: 346: 345: 339: 335: 334: 333: 332: 326: 325: 324: 323: 320: 317: 312: 308: 307: 306: 305: 301: 298: 274: 257: 253: 249: 248: 240: 229: 227: 224: 220: 219: 215: 212: 209: 206: 202: 201: 189: 188: 183: 182: 177: 168: 164: 163: 159: 154: 152: 148: 144: 134: 130: 129: 126: 109: 105: 104: 99: 96: 92: 91: 87: 70: 67: 64: 60: 59: 55: 51: 45: 41: 37: 28: 27: 19: 4233: 4217:JuniperChill 4210: 4189: 4183:" listed at 4171: 4151: 4126: 4105: 4087: 4070: 4052: 4013: 3996: 3992: 3976: 3947: 3943: 3930: 3923: 3915: 3891: 3887: 3883: 3879: 3875: 3871: 3867: 3863: 3859: 3849: 3816: 3798: 3769: 3760: 3725: 3696: 3692: 3682: 3678: 3656: 3639: 3610:User:Leon II 3594:User:Alesjif 3551: 3537: 3516: 3500: 3495: 3494: 3489: 3488: 3484: 3483: 3480: 3474: 3472: 3459: 3457: 3452: 3450: 3447: 3444: 3440: 3428: 3414: 3407: 3401: 3394: 3370: 3365: 3345: 3325: 3323: 3311: 3307:Zaporízhzhia 3306: 3304: 3282: 3278: 3274: 3270: 3266: 3233: 3230: 3220: 3191: 3184: 3180: 3135: 3083: 3056: 3052: 3048: 3011: 2983: 2969: 2931: 2919: 2911: 2887: 2871: 2864: 2860: 2856: 2796: 2782: 2765: 2747:Olexa Riznyk 2745:suggests. -- 2713: 2690: 2646: 2626: 2611: 2607: 2606: 2604:(proposed). 2587: 2586:(current) / 2569: 2565: 2563: 2554: 2549: 2545: 2543: 2541: 2526: 2522: 2520: 2518:(proposed). 2515: 2514:(current) / 2511: 2507: 2505: 2500: 2496: 2491: 2487: 2485: 2483: 2453: 2445: 2437: 2431: 2420: 2413: 2399: 2384: 2380: 2376: 2372: 2365: 2357: 2350: 2339: 2335: 2331: 2324: 2310: 2306: 2302: 2298: 2294: 2290: 2275: 2271: 2267: 2263: 2262:osyp, Олексі 2259: 2255: 2238: 2234: 2230: 2226: 2222: 2218: 2201: 2197: 2193: 2189: 2185: 2181: 2177: 2173: 2166:ye / yu / ya 2158: 2154: 2147:ie / iu / ia 2110: 2091: 2074: 2063: 2046: 2033:me on reply) 2006:me on reply) 1944: 1935:me on reply) 1912: 1890: 1879:WP:guideline 1872: 1865:me on reply) 1842: 1832: 1826: 1819: 1797: 1777: 1774: 1755: 1737: 1732: 1726: 1720: 1711: 1686: 1645: 1611: 1605: 1573: 1528: 1526: 1499: 1447:RGloucester 1382:RGloucester 1324:RGloucester 1319: 1292: 1286: 1280: 1273: 1270: 1257: 1254: 1251: 1232: 1212: 1210: 1207: 1203: 1182: 1163: 1104: 1102: 1086: 1068: 1058: 1041: 1023: 939: 936: 926: 925: 913: 909: 905: 892: 876: 845:shchabelʹok 830:shchabel’ok 541:linguistics 531: 492: 488: 474: 470: 459: 444: 419: 404: 399: 395: 391: 387: 383: 380:Zaporizhzhia 379: 375: 371: 294: 292: 245: 185: 179: 140: 101: 50:WikiProjects 40:project page 39: 4263:common name 4236:Palianytsia 4114:Franzekafka 4018:Oleh Kushch 3183:vka to Kadi 2559:more common 2546:є, ю, я, йо 2544:Transcribe 2486:Transcribe 2402:вів → Lviv 2383:йон → batal 2274:ельський → 2200:нськ → Slov 2075:SMcCandlish 1776:method.) — 1545:Iryna Harpy 1472:Iryna Harpy 1462:RGloucester 1428:Iryna Harpy 1413:RGloucester 1303:Iryna Harpy 1256:elsewhere. 1229:table above 938:Knowledge ( 842:shchabelok 839:schabel’ok 836:schabel’ok 833:shchabelok 758:smiiet’sia 752:smiyet’sya 749:smijet’sja 683:Zaporizhia 677:Zaporizhya 671:Zaporižžja 374:, and зг = 181:WP:PROPOSAL 178:, refer to 4288:Categories 4075:Chaosdruid 3475:Britannica 3468:Belarusian 3287:Юе-Артеміш 3253:Юе-Артеміш 3238:Юе-Артеміш 3206:Chaosdruid 3168:-Lemonaka‎ 2915:advantage. 2863:, and х = 2617:Yenakiyeve 2613:Slov'yansk 2608:Britannica 2523:Britannica 2490:always as 2379:yiv, батал 2301:ostannishy 2225:vka, Анань 2221:вка → Maki 2026:STUFF DONE 1999:STUFF DONE 1981:please see 1928:STUFF DONE 1858:STUFF DONE 1502:User:KPbIC 1344:this table 827:ščabel’ok 816:yaieshnia 813:yaieshnia 810:yaieshnia 807:yayeshnya 804:yayeshnya 764:smiietsia 761:smiietsia 755:smiyetsya 668:Запоріжжя 392:Zaporizhia 149:, and the 4271:Ymblanter 3916:* Opinion 3730:Ymblanter 3674:speakers. 3574:User:Trzb 3340:See also 3224:blindlynx 3201:changing. 2823:Mongolian 2710:WP:REDACT 2670:Mongolian 2564:Compare: 2532:Makiyivka 2528:Mykolayiv 2506:Compare: 2417:→ Solovyi 2395:elsewhere 2392:(omitted) 2375:їв → Anan 2293:останніши 2286:elsewhere 2237:нка → 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