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the subject, but under the NFC guidelines I don't see what it is teaching me about four baseball games. And my question still stands, what don't you understand about the 1926 World Series because of it not having a logo? If you understand the topic, then why is this World Series any different than that one? Why not use non-free images of Manny, Francona, how about the Red Sox team picture, or the umpires? I'm certain we could find better quality ones. Why not put the MLB logo, the Red Sox logo, the
Cardinals logo, the Fenway Park and Busch Stadium logos in there too? Surely all of those were "important to the subject".
1512:â My hands are tied with this article because I'm a New York Yankees fan and have an inherent bias against one of the main subjects (the Red Sox). This means that I'm not in a good position to oppose. However, a look at the lead reveals several problems with the prose, and I'm concerned that the rest of the article will exhibit the same tendencies. I may have said this about the article before, but please consider finding someone to polish it up.
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drawing a pretty picture for it. How in any way shape or form is the removal of the logo "detrimental to ... understanding" the baseball games? The Series is more important than a few average games, I get that, and so would anybody who actually takes time to read the article and learns that over 25 million people wathced each game. Just because somebody drew a picture for an event makes it no more important.
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about the 4 games doesn't mean it isn't about the subject. The background on the LCSes doesn't tell you about 4 games. The broadcasters don't tell you about the 4 games. They are information pertaining to the overall subject of the 2004 World Series, exactly like the logo. Your personal dislike of fair use images is fine but an FAC should not be held up over personal taste. This is clearly
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watched it on TV, it would give them a pretty good idea that these were big games. We aren't here to stress that the games were a big deal, we're here to tell about the games and what happend in them. Pretty text which repeats the article's title does not significantly increases knowledge of four baseball games. By removing it zero knowledge of the actual subject is lost.
905:"Just three months after the Red Sox won the World Series, the Patriots capped off an unforgettable 12 months for Boston area teams, winning Super Bowl XXXIX, which was the third championship won by Boston-area teams during that time, making it the first time since 1979-1980 in Pittsburgh that the same city has had 2 Super Bowl and World Series winners in 12 months."
472:, is there a reason why it is still present? There are plenty of free images of Manny who was the MVP or Francona or Fenway Park which were all key factors in the Series and would be just as fitting in the infobox. Copyrighted images, such as the logo, are only to be used if there are no free imgages related to the subjectâwhich is obiously not the case hereâ
1564:"which supposedly ended the Curse of the Bambino, a curse that was supposed to have been inflicted on the team when Babe Ruth left for the Yankees in 1919." It's appropriate to mention the curse in the lead, but I haven't seen anybody suggest that it is still intact, assuming it ever existed in the first place (after the last few years, I'm not sure :-))
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that picture that it is in fact the logo for the 2004 World Series. It doesnât matter if itâs the first, second, or billionth time youâre looking at the picture, you know exactly what it is. Putting it up there and saying, âThis is the logo for the 2004 World Seriesâ teaches you absolutely nothing. On the other hand if you see the cover art for
549:, but that it wouldn't convey the same meaning). And this image does significantly increase the reader's understanding: a reader with zero or minimal knowledge about the subject is immediately made aware that it's an event that rises to the level of having its own logo. That is, it's not just some podunk minor league championship thingy, it's a
2386:. My reading of NFCC#8 would say that it is not allowable as it does not add anything to readers' understanding of the article and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding. (Ask yourself this: If you did not see the logo, would you still know what the article was about?) Not opposing or supporting, just saying.
1376:. These phrases include "Albert Pujols", "Curt Schilling", "practice" "Red Sox" in the Curt Schilling image (should be "Boston", since that's what the uniform says), "before Game 1", "Manny RamĂrez" (twice), "during spring training", "The Red Sox team", "George W. Bush", and "White House". Can someone please fix these?
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you take away a symbol that will greatly reduce the reader's understanding of the album, in fact, you reduce it so much that it is "detrimental" to understanding. By removing the logo of the World Series you may take away a part of it, but that part is not as key to understanding to the overall topic
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no fair use logo to put in the article. The reason it's not missing anything is because that image doesn't exist. If THIS image was removed, however, the article would be missing something (just as an image-less BLP would be) because the logo is a part of the subject. Just because it doesn't tell you
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You're arguing with the wrong guy, because like I said I don't think any non-free images should be used. Anywhere. Ever. I don't know what a person's picture adds to the understanding of that person, which is why I've never added one and don't see the need to. I'm not denying that the logo is part of
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it is the official logo of the subject. It is a PART of the subject, just as much as the MVP is or anything else. Without the logo you would not know what the logo looks like. We allow fair use portraits (where no free image can be found) for people all the time, even if their notability is unrelated
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I realize that this has been discussed before, but I think it is very silly that some don't think the logo meets NFCC criteria, so I thought I'd chime in. The fact that this annual event gets its own, uniquely designed logo for each and every year tells the reader something important about the event.
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Because "Cardinals" is a plural form, just an apostrophe alone is sufficient for the possessive form (the side is the one belonging to the
Cardinals). "Sox" could be considered technically a proper noun of its own, in which case, apostrophe follows by s is appropriate. However, since it is in essence
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In addition, I think a bit of the governmental response to the win is worth mentioning. You have the pic of them with Bush, why not mention the traditional White House visit? Plus
Congress always passes resolutions honoring major championship winners, you have to think the MA delegation was all over
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Hereâs what Iâm starting to think, or realize, about my viewpoint on this issue because neither one of us is going to convince the other. Because the logo for the 2004 World Series actually includes the words "2004 World Series" within the logo it is immediately obvious to every person that looks at
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logo from its article because it is much more widely used than the logo of the Series. Though I honestly don't see any reason why that article couldn't exist without the logo. The key sentence in the NFCC is that if removed the logo's absence would be "detrimental to understanding". I don't see any
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Some of that stuff is verifiable, due to the embedded photo information. For instance, "before Game 1" -- the date reflected on the image page, and that date is the day before the first day of the Series. However, I get the general point you're making. I'm not arguing, but I'm also not an interested
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You are missing the point. No one is saying that by making a logo for the event, the event is then more important. The argument is that people believe the event is important enough to warrant a logo of its own. The logo REFLECTS the event's importance. In that way, the logo is immediately conveying
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I have to disagree with that. This article is about four baseball games. I fail to see how someone drawing a picture for them makes it more important. If people would just read the intro which references the 100th anniversary of the WS, the history of the teams, and should mention the millions that
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tells me about four baseball games played between the
Cardinals and Red Sox in October 2004? It tells me nothing of the Curse, of Manny being the MVP, or of the great celebration that followed; these are what make up the "2004 World Series" and why it deserves to have its own article, not some guy
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you're going to recognize the album instantly because you saw the picture here. You've learned something about the album and identify it with that picture. That's fair use, copyrighted image, high educational value. But you're never going to be encountered with that situation when it comes to the
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I wouldn't worry about it. The appropriate action, if anyone is inclined to do it, would be to challenge the logo's non-free use rationale. That is not something that should hold up an FA. If a NFUR challenge is successful, you'll simply insert one of the other images suggested in the infobox; if
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you arenât going to know what that picture is or what it represents. But if we put the picture up there and we say, âThis is the cover art for the album The Dark Side of the Moonâ or âThis is the logo of the
Calgary Flamesâ then the viewer has learned something. So the second time they see that
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How does the logo reflect the importance of the baseball games? Simply by existing? I could draw a logo for this FAC, does that make it more important than the rest of the FACs? The prose in the article is much more convincing that the Series was a big deal than the logo. Elderly
Instruments is
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problem still remains; the easiest way to fix it is to remove the proper names from the alt text. One other thing: the alt text "The logo for the 2004 World Series." is not helpful to a visually impaired person, and should be replaced with a description of the visual appearance of the
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Yeah, I was just reading through one of my
English text books and saw that last night. Only names which end in S still require an apostrophe S. I do disagree on the Sox however, simply because the rule is "Anything other than a word ending in S". You can see an example
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Never mind. The quote boxes get jumbled up on certain browserâwindowsize combinations, among other issues, so you can change it back. (I'd revert it for you, but I'm not sure in which edit you began moving of if there were unrelated changes during the move.)
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For one, just because they have them doesn't mean they're correct or within the guidelines. The World Series is a very different topic than a sports franchise or an instrument company, their logos are of different importance based on what they are. The
712:". I've never heard of a situation where you add only an apostrophe; it should always be "'s". Now that I take a closer look, it might be better just to say "The media expressed disappointment at the Cardinals's failure..." Active voice is better than
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of Fox Sports called the fifth homerun of the postseason: "Down the right field line, into the corner it is fair! And a three-run home run, Ortiz has done it again!" Kevin Millar then scored by virtue of a single by Bill
Mueller to put the Red Sox up
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Even though I have a reputation as the evil non-free image remover, I don't have a problem with the logo. This is the main article for this logo, it is unexceptional. If it appears in any other article, there is probably an issue there.
313:"The Cardinals earned their berth in the play-offs by winning the National League Central, and had the best winâloss record in the National League." -- I know what that means but what do you mean "winning the National League Central"?
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I withdrew the last nomination for this article because I felt there was too much still to do. I hope now having given it enough extra work, having given it another PR and contacted everyone that gave feedback on the last nomination.
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World Seriesâespecially one that took place years ago. I'm well aware my personal tastes don't matter, but the reason I object is that I don't feel it's within the policy, not because I simply don't like it. By removing the cover of
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I was thinking the same thing. Why are those quotes any more relavent than others about the Series? Surely there are quotes from people on every topic that WP covers, but they don't all deserve their own section simply for existing.
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The last thing you said there is really my main thing I don't get about this. There are hundreds maybe even thousands of articles, many of which are already FA, that have images like this, why should this article be any different?
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a homonym and alternate spelling of "Socks", I believe the sole apostrophe is a reasonable choice. (Note for a singular proper noun that just happens to end in s, the appropriate possessive form ends in apostrophe followed by s.)
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The current alt text has one systematic problem, though. Several phrases in the alt text contain details that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only in the image, and need to be reworded or removed as per
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The last sentence of the lead needs a rewrite, maybe something like "The
Cardinals and Red Sox each won their next appearance in the World Series (2006 and 2007 respectively)". Dunno if this sentence is really needed at
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I can confirm that -- different style guides instruct differently on that. But it should be consistent within this article. Above where it says "Red Sox's" I think that means that we'd need to use "Red Sox'" instead.
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I've not done this sort of thing before, I have no idea what the rules are. So I might not be the best person to write the alt text. However the image of
Schilling was not taken before Game 2, it was taken in 2007.
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Format of "The Star-Spangled Banner" is all over the place. It should be "The Star-Spangled Banner" (quotation marks included and linked) the first time used, then with quotation marks and no link after that. Never
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if the image "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic"âall the logo does is show me that it exists, which has very little to do with the four baseball games that are the topic of this article.
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party, or an expert on how alt text should be writtenâŚmy additions should probably be regarded as suggestions. If you have specific improvements in mine, it might be best just to make the changes yourself. -
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I would have no problem if you moved them into the game recap secions in quote boxes. The Ortiz one to Game 1, the Manny one to the aftermath section, and pick either the Buck or Castiglione one for Game 4.
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form, and just thought it was very poor. So I've been working on it on and off for over a year to give it a total re-write, remove piontless large amount of piontless trivia and added in refs where needed.
1621:"With the New England Patriots winning the Super Bowl eight months before". Try this for an improvement grammatically: "After the New England Patriots' victory in Super Bowl XXXVIII eight months before".
1109:, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper. (the Washington post was one I noted first, but there are others)
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Also, other examples that follow a similar model is ALL of the year-specific Olympic articles that also use their specific logos in their infoboxes (the only Olympic related FA that does this is
2102:. What does that tell you about the songs on the album? Nothing. But it's a part of the album and cannot be replaced by a free image because the copyrighted image itself is what's important.
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be italicized in the lead? Seems like it's a quotation mark thing, if anything. Down under "Aftermath" it's just straight linked, it should certainly be made consistent if anything else.
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Like I said, just because they're used doesn't mean that they're automatically correct in doing so. I don't think any one of those articles would be less informative without the logos.
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is a FA, without a logo of any kind and it seems to be getting along just fine without one. I'm having no trouble understanding the topic due to the lack of a logo or non-free image.
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I would cite the A-Rod ball slapping incident specifically. I know the ESPN ref one sentence later covers it, but it's a specific/notable enough moment it's worth the extra cite.
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something to the reader. Also, the logo is important for identification purposes. The logo was used to identify this specific event for over a year. Featured articles such as
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I'm pretty sure sections of quotes are discouraged in Knowledge articles; the reasoning is that the content is indiscriminant information that should go on Wikiquote instead.
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In Game 3, "...and the inning ended as a result." Not technically wrong, but you don't really have to say "as a result". Even stating "...score from third, ending the inning".
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This has already been discussed further up the page. Basically even thought this is still an issue, it is not some that should affect the articles chances of becoming a FA.
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article, which is already linked in the first sentence. Instead of providing a repetitive link that may have been clicked on already, consider providing a link to
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different than this case because it is a company which would likely print their logo on its products. Likewise, I'm not going to argue that we should remove the
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not, you'll have your answer. Either way, not a substantial change to the article, and not something that you should worry about too much during FA discussion. -
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adds a lot to the article. A view of a game between the Cardinals and the Red Sox would be better for an infobox image, I would think. What are your thoughts?
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In aftermath section "Lowe said that the team would no longer hear "1918!" at Yankee Stadium again." No need for the final "again" if it's not a direct quote.
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1625:"They won Game 2 thanks to six innings pitched by starter Curt Schilling, where he allowed just one run." Innings aren't a place. Perhaps use "in which"?
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Couple of random things from elsewhere. I saw this in Broadcasting: "Jeanne Zelasko covered the pre-game build-up to all four game...". Look at the end.
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against Wiki policies, as the vast number of featured articles on similar modern sporting events with precisely this same type of image show. Promoted
1031:"had combined for just one hit in 22 at-bats" I hate the word "just", say ""had combined for one hit in 22 at-bats". Basically the same affect, no POV.
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It states that Schilling was in "considerable discomfort", "considerable" sounds awful close to POV to me. A quote from the article would be better.
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That's exactly my point, nothing is lost from not having a logo there. What part of the 1926 World Series are you having difficulty understanding?
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Speaking of the references, number 28 isn't appearing properly. Check the template to see if there's a glitch somewhere. That happens to me a lot.
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Citation 81 doesn't back up the claim that it was the first occurence of such an event. Nor is the citation itself backed by a RS. Simply re-use
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Generally speaking, alt text should focus on a photo's visual aspects, not on identifying the people in it (that's what captions are for).
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to their appearance (so not a model or something), what does that add other than showing what someone looks like (just like this logo)?
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SchillingNew.JPG - the image page does not describe what the image is. Can you possibly add this? Also same px size and upright.
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I always thought that it you were talking about ownership by something that ended in S, you only put an apostrophe on the end.
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I asked another user to check that the images were all ok before I posted this nomination. There didn't seem to be a problem.
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Maybe a line break/clear before the "Statistics" section? At least on my display the Manny image rubs up against that header.
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It doesn say "supposedly ended". To fix this, you could put "which ended the (insert qualifier here) Curse of the Bambino".
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I just added a bunch of 'em, and found another bunch already done. Not sure if there are any remaining with not alt text. -
1037:"Suppan suddenly stopped halfway towards home." adverbs bad, "suddenly" isn't necessary unless it's vital to the situation.
545:: I agree. There is no free image that could play the role this one does (which is not to say that another image wouldn't
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Pujols facing.JPG - if you are using thumb, you shouldnt specify a px size. Also please use the upright function as well (
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I've done this now. But I'm not sure it's really looks any better. I'm also worried it disrupts the flow of the writing.
1028:"Eldred came in to relieve Morris, after a mediocre performance, in the fifth inning." Again, mediocre according to who?
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Ok I've done a bit more research. I think you are right about "Sox's" but I'm going to keep "Cardinals'" the way it is.
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1264:). My cures would've been worse than the ailment, so I figured I'd stop whining and let others fix as needed. :) --
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Regardless of how it sounds, we are dealing with prose. Can you provide any reliable sources which use Red Sox'Â ?
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understanding of the event being lost whatsoever, people just have to take the time to (gasp!) read the article.
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Having opposed the first nomination due to the presence of the copyrighted logo image, which still does not meet
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I asked someone I know who is an English teacher, he said you can use either. This article also says that:
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1629:"Manny Ramirez was named the series Most Valuable Player." Could be an apostrophe at the end of "series".
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After Manny RamĂrez flied out, Ortiz hit a three-run home run in his first ever World Series at bat.
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I don't feel that we should use any non-free images period, but I'm more than willing to accept them
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Thanks for pointing out that error, which has since been fixed. The guidelines for alt text are in
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Non-breaking spaces needed throughout, specifically in the broadcasting and aftermath sections.
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ref putting the attendance at 3+ million, that fact alone is worth inclusion if nothing else.
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Though they aren't usually needed, the final paragraph is a nice conclusion for the article
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Please see the "alt text" button in the toolbox at the upper right of this review page.
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also incorporate logos in a similar manner. This type of thing is not unprecedented. --
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In Game 2, God Bless America should be in quotes, not italics (this goes for all songs)
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a formal logo like more modern sporting events. Of course the article doesn't use it.
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Consider merging the "Series quotes" into the relevant game sections (something like,
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The info in this passage is repeated earlier in the section. Is there a need for that?
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than the season overview, the aftermath, the broadcasters, or the cover of an album.
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So should I just remove it and not bother putting into another part of the article?
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ref #72 doesn't cover the second Super Bowl win, but I will try and find something.
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as placed right now (they're all quotes, yes, but sorting by game seems better). --
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might not hurt in the aftermath. I'll leave it up to you if you want to include it.
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Manny Ramirez Parade.jpg - ok, maybe add the its okay to move to commons template.
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In aftermath section "then Arizona Diamondbacks team-mate, Randy Johnson in 2001"
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Under "Aftermath", I think the Red Sox victory parade needs a bit more coverage.
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There is no proof that this ended the curse so it has to say "supposedly ended".
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In aftermath section "On the Cardinals' side" should be "On the Cardinals's side"
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References and Notes section should have the Notes made lower-case, per MoS.
1533:"The series was play between October 23 and October 27, 2004". Glaring typo.
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Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool.
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I also still believe that it should be removed, as it doesn't meet NFCC#8.
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I'm working on that. If I can't find anything I'm going to remove it.
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Non-breaking spaces for "12 months", "2 Super Bowls", and "12 months".
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I realize consensus votes on FACs doesn't equal WP policy, but again
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are ALL sporting events that use the logo/poster as their top image.
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it a bit more, since a few proper names remained. It looks good now.
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Cardnials MLB.com maybe better listed as Cardnials official website
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1049:"3,000 Red Sox fans" nbsp, sorry I shoulda had those ones earlier
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As a Yankees fan I feel dirty reviewing this, but as a member of
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They came first in the National League Central, so they won it.
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I think that would be possesive though, it is the "Cardinals's
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Could I try and resolve by putting it up for a vote somewhere?
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The official logo is, by definition, important to the subject
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Once again, the 1926 comparison is meaningless because there
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In Game 4, "Bonds and RamĂrez also received", why the "also"?
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to this revision, which may differ significantly from the
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they meet the criteria. Can somebody please explain what
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Just a reminder: the images still need alt text as per
154:
Featured article candidates/2004 World Series/archive2
149:
Featured article candidates/2004 World Series/archive1
2246:
picture, theyâll say, âOh, this is the cover art for
1009:
In Game 1, Tessie should be in quotes and linked to
910:"Just three months" is POV, just say "Three months"
366:has its own article, please link it the first time
1545:to assist those looking for a more general link.
2120:If you're walking through the store and you see
1548:I links to the pl,ayoff section of the article.
808:It still end in an s sound so I think it's ok.
2307:List of largest peaceful gatherings in history
739:read the third paragraph of the guy's answer.
305:Boston Red Sox George W. Bush 2005.jpg - ok
1567:Are you saying the article does say that?
1482:Whoops! Sorry about the Schilling error! -
915:"unforgettable" is POV, cite or remove it
340:in your refs. Once you link, for example
67:Revision as of 08:18, 2 October 2009 by
1516:Feel free to do what you can yourself.
66:
14:
2382:I was asked to comment on the logo by
404:It was late, I must have missed it. --
788:in the title from the NY Daily News.
50:
31:
18:Knowledge:Featured article candidates
2098:with the fair use album cover image
258:Manny RamĂrez 2.jpg - same as Pujols
23:
117:
86:
1537:The link to play-offs goes to the
118:
2407:
1732:Bids for the 2012 Summer Olympics
1539:2004 Major League Baseball season
1046:"17 consecutive post-season" nbsp
53:. The present address (URL) is a
2176:2007 UEFA Champions League Final
1927:2007 UEFA Champions League Final
1543:Major League Baseball postseason
1799:
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375:should be linked the first time
2100:File:Dark Side of the Moon.png
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1691:23:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
1669:- I don't really believe that
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1388:06:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
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1350:06:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
1043:Cardinals should be Cardinals'
958:It's not quite the same info.
838:21:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
818:18:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
804:14:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
779:12:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
764:05:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
613:16:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
598:14:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
584:04:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
563:02:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
189:I first found this article in
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1462:Thanks for doing all that. I
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400:07:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
326:06:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
297:16:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
274:07:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
2324:Think I've done everything.
2190:set a pretty clear pattern.
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264:I'm not sure what you mean.
220:Images need alt text as per
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2396:08:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
2378:01:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
2368:Looks good overall though!
2356:15:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
2334:11:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
2321:was running for president.
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2200:01:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
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2112:00:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
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2048:20:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
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1975:20:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
1951:15:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
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1065:20:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
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852:13:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
235:07:27, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
208:06:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
140:06:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
30:of this page, as edited by
10:
2412:
2160:2005 ACC Championship Game
1987:point, that Series didn't
1911:2005 ACC Championship Game
2238:The Dark Side of the Moon
2127:The Dark Side of the Moon
2122:The Dark Side of the Moon
2096:The Dark Side of the Moon
1448:Think I've fixed it now.
282:Copy to Wikimedia Commons
1256:Those were my concerns (
653:There was a few left, I
2281:I feel it's my duty. :)
1369:Thanks for doing that.
378:(ref 62) IMDB is not a
2180:2008 Humanitarian Bowl
1931:2008 Humanitarian Bowl
217:Alt text done; thanks.
2172:2006 Chick-fil-A Bowl
1923:2006 Chick-fil-A Bowl
51:08:18, 2 October 2009
2290:Curse of the Bambino
1430:WP:ALT#Verifiability
1374:WP:ALT#Verifiability
899:teammate is one word
387:link first instance
310:Prose (quick check)
1787:Elderly Instruments
424:Hope this helps. --
385:The New York Times.
93:â Previous revision
2346:Yup yup, support!
1671:File:MLBWS2004.png
1428:Unfortunately the
373:Sports Illustrated
2311:Los Angeles Times
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2188:No Way Out (2004)
2164:2003 Insight Bowl
1985:1926 World Series
1939:No Way Out (2004)
1915:2003 Insight Bowl
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