186:
Navy after the end of the war and served on active duty until 1950, and then in reserve into the early 70s, after which she was broken up for scrap. I wrote this article mostly in
January and February, after which it passed GA and A-class reviews. The portion on the ship's wartime service has since been overhauled somewhat by Sturmvogel 66, who has access to a couple of specialized sources. I feel the article is of pretty high quality, and with the help of reviewers, we can ensure this article meets the FA standards. Thanks in advance to all those who take the time to review this article.
466:, if the other reviewers are happy with the responses (I can't tell), with the understanding that I'm generally too involved with ship articles to support them at FAC. My only remaining reservation is the "one ship did this, two ships did this, one ship did this" discussion below, but I don't see a way to improve things given the information we've got. Standard
620:
remain neutral, and allowed Goeben and
Breslau to remain in port for around 36 hours ... Despite the additional time, Goeben's fuel stocks were not sufficient to permit the voyage to Constantinople, so Souchon arranged to rendezvous with another collier in the Aegean Sea. ... Souchon's two ships departed ...". - Dank (
1412:
In the Black Sea operations - 1914 section you note that her holes were plugged with concrete, however I would like to know if this move was due the inability of the ship to have a dock large enough for service or if other factors (like time constraints, neutrality laws, economics, etc) had a hand in
1276:
made up the the
Mediterranian division, but there was actually a third ship that was part of the division as well, the SMS Loreley which was used as a station yacht at constantinople. I dont know the particulars about her service, but she was attached to the Mediterranian division at the start of the
1119:... and then she carried the Ottoman Armistice Commission to Odessa. It's certainly possible, being double-hulled, but if so, "hole" is the wrong word, it conveys an image of water streaming into the ship. I removed it because this level of detail didn't grab me, but feel free to re-insert. - Dank (
840:
I'll defer to
Parsecboy, but the initial "gift" seems to have been pretty nominal as the Germans remained in control of both ships and even attacked Russia without the permission or the knowledge of the Ottoman government. The later transfer was real as the Germans turned over control of the ship to
819:
of ships when I see it ... not just as a copyeditor, I'm also interested in how humans deal with dangerous technology. Anthropomorphism is one way, and you see it all over the place during wartime. Feel free to revert; I went with "The ships were spotted from
Breslau", and added an "undetected". -
619:
Same problem here: "Since Goeben could not reach
Constantinople without coaling, Souchon headed for Messina. ... The British turned to follow Goeben, but she was able to outrun them, and arrived in Messina by 5 August. ... Italian naval authorities in the port were displeased with the decision to
563:
Understood that Goeben and
Breslau constituted the same division, and that ships tend to travel in formation in wartime ... but it doesn't work for me to say that G and B did this, then G did this and this and this, then "Goeben and Breslau continued their activities ...". It leaves the question
185:
served in the
Mediterranean before the start of World War I and fled to Turkey at the onset of hostilities. Her presence played a part in bringing the Ottomans into the war on the side of Germany and stymied Allied attempts to seize Constantinople. The ship was formally transferred to the Turkish
742:
Writers are generally welcome to ignore my copyediting comments, which are aimed more at copyeditors (yes, some people actually enjoy this stuff) ... but this one is for the writers: when you're rereading what you wrote and you come across a word that states or implies someone's state of mind,
1432:
The coal transports mentioned in the 1915 section, were these commercial vessels or were they built specifically for the navy? If the latter was the case I would suggest seeing if we have an article here for fleet coalers and linking to it. If not, please disregard this comment.
316:
Barlas & Güvenç and Güvenç & Barlas are cited Author short-title style in the footnotes, all other footnotes are cited Author only style. Consistency: either Author short-title or Author only? Author order for these texts means that Author only would not cause
1083:
overcame some specific difficulty ... do you know what the difficulty was, and would the sentence be stronger if you were specific? "tried to attack" likewise suggests that there's something the reader isn't being told ... did they never get close enough to fire? Did
867:
It's not clear to me that the caption "Goeben in the
Bosphorus in 1914" is correct. Per the description, the "German Federal Archive often retained the original image captions", which may not be correct. The longer description says the image was (translating)
239:"From April 1913 Goeben visited many Mediterranean ports including Venice, Pola, and Naples, before sailing into Albanian waters." -- are there any contemporary newspapers that describe the visits? You might be able to include more information on them.
1369:
In the section The pursuit of Goeben and
Breslau you note that international law allowed the ships to be in a neutral port for only 24-hours. Do we know which international law specifically, and if so why isn't the specific law linked in the section?
942:
A little more: "By May, the monthly data were showing an uptick" means "by May 31" more than half the time (but not always); "By May, we had run out of basic supplies" means "by May 1" more than half the time (but not always). "by" is bad. - Dank
675:
I changed "secret orders" to "encrypted orders"; my understanding is that they were encrypted. "Secret" generally requires that you add some details so that we know who they were being kept "secret" from; there are many possible answers. - Dank
1088:
get in the way? Did they fire and miss? I guess the general principle is: it's better to say what went wrong (or right), or to say nothing, than to use words that suggest something went wrong (or right) without telling us what it was. - Dank
592:
Same problem here: "... he ordered his ships to make for Pola for repairs. Engineers came from Germany to work on the ship. Goeben had 4,460 boiler tubes replaced, among other repairs. Upon completion, the ships departed for Messina." - Dank
1211:, a very good, well-written, comprehensive and solidly referenced article. I made a few minor alterations & added some links. Also, it might be a good idea to add somewhere that "Yavuz" means "formidable, resolute".
1544:- with the disclaimer that I have edited this article in the past, adding information from Whitley. Only one quibble: was there any information in your sources on the Kaiser's visit in 1917? Why was in Turkey, etc?
1333:
In the Balkan Wars section you have a link to the main article First Balkan War at the top but then in the second paragraph note the service in the Second Balkan War. Why not link to both at the top of the page?
1472:
served, I do not see this in the article and its not a big deal, but am I right to assume that the comparison was in fact located in this article, or was it another article that I am thinking of?
1296:
was technically assigned to the division, when writers refer to the unit they're not including her, as she was an active participant. I don't see much reason to include her in this article.
1559:
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I'll let Parsecboy make the definitive answer, but I suspect that these were sealed orders meant to be opened only in case of a general war with the British, and not encrypted at all.--
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There was one too many "5"s in the ISBN. I'll have to see if there's anything on the port visits. The link to Philippeville has been fixed (though I was tempted to tell you
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consider whether the reader can figure that out on their own ... if so, then the sentence is generally stronger without the state-of-mind words. So, "Aware that
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650:"As a result, the Mediterranean Division would need to remain in the area." Because there were objectives in the area, or for some other reason? - Dank (
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Bibliography requires consistent location data (eg: Worth, Richard (2001). Hough, Richard (2003). Â ; Campbell, N. J. M. (1978). requires State or Nation).
1456:, by curious coincidence both the measurements are equal. Please check this, as it is my experience that metric units and other units are rarely equal.
253:"On 7–8 May, Yavuz sortied from the Bosphorus, but fails to locate any Russian ships and is short of ammunition and cannot bombard Sevastopol." -- huh?
747:
could not reach Constantinople without coaling, Souchon decided to return to Messina for more coal. ... Refueling in Messina..." is better as: "Since
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The problem is that we sometimes don't know what Breslau did. We only know what they did together and sometimes we are told that they separated.--
1503:) you'll see it. It strikes me as an odd comparison, as there have been plenty of battleships that spent a lot more time on active service than
771:
Red links are fine by me, although they can be a bit hard to reference as first names are not given in many sources for incidental personages.--
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1244:. However, after the renaming in 1936 (probably an attempt to shed any remaining association with the Ottoman past) it was simply known as
886:
I changed the date from the caption and changed the name to Yavuz, as it's more likely, IMO, that this picture post dates the renaming.--
40:
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When you put quote marks around "transferred", it means in that context that it wasn't really a transfer. What was it, then? - Dank (
785:
I was thinking the admiral of the France's Mediterranean fleet would probably meet the notability guidelines, is that right? - Dank (
761:
Admiral Laperèyer: correct me if I'm wrong, but if they seem notable and we don't have an article, I usually red-link them. - Dank (
320:
Dual author footnotes "&" versus "and" consistency, Langensiepen and Güleryüz, but yet Barlas & Güvenç; Güvenç & Barlas
1486:
Yes, I think it was something along the lines "the longest continually-serving dreadnought-type ship" with a note qualifying that
30:
17:
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1562:) was taken by a U.S. Navy photographer, which makes it a work of the U.S. federal government and in the public domain.
1337:
I'll let Parsec answer this one, but I'm more inclined to delete the header link since it's linked immediately below.--
1155:"lacking in anti-aircraft armament": they lacked this armament, or the armament was lacking, i.e. substandard? - Dank (
710:
Basically, they were disregarding the Kaiser's prewar orders and keeping him out of the loop. How does it read now?
138:
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as well, though with no success." The different between "managed to sink" and "sank" is that "managed" suggests
1464:
Just out of curiosity, I seem to recall a comparison of the time this ship served in relation to the time that
88:
83:
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could not reach Constantinople without coaling, Souchon headed for Messina. Refueling in Messina..." - Dank (
92:
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Rounding error, currently only 2 significant digits, as metric tons and long tons are actually fairly close.
236:- the ISBN for Langensiepen is probably wrong, they're supposed to be either 10 or 13 digits long (not 11!)
1165:
AFAIK she only had the 4 x 88mm guns that she'd received during the war, so I'd have to say sub-standard.--
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at the Stenia dockyards before 1917". If it was after mid-August 1914, then the right name would be
928:"work was finished by May" ... by May 1 or by May 31? (Now reworded ... it's the second sentence of
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1452:
In the post war section you have a note about the tonnage of the floating dry dock acquired to fix
999:
Source doesn't specify. She left with two other ships, so each could have left on different days.--
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As far as I can know the only criterion was the lack of a big enough dock, as is already stated.--
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989:"On 7–8 May, Yavuz sortied from the Bosphorus" . Did she leave on the 7th or the 8th? - Dank (
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hanging in the air what B was up to. Is it possible to cover either both or just G? - Dank (
467:
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Did Souchon accept command of the Turkish fleet on 23 September, later, or never? - Dank (
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Comment: The lead is in good shape. Feel free to give me a holler if I can help. - Dank (
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I think I tried to cram too too many facts into that sentence. See how it reads now.--
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1558:- this is a simple one. All images but one are from the Bundesarchiv; the last one (
1041:"the after superstructure": would "the aft superstructure" do just as well? - Dank (
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and the other sub couldn't get into a firing position, which I have now clarified.
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Okay, I'll revert back to "secret" and wait for details to be added. - Dank (
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815:"Breslau spotted the ships without being seen herself": I pay attention to
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bombard a town in Belgium when she was in the Mediterranean? (you link to
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section; you may consider it worth linking to that article or section.
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I don't know what "laid up" means; was she placed in reserve? - Dank (
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The only German battlecruiser to serve outside the North/Baltic Seas,
1118:"one of the three mine holes was repaired."<ref name=Conways/: -->
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mentions the the Dnieper-Bug Canal and its estuary, or liman, in its
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I suspect that Breslau was also refitted, but don't know for sure.--
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Yes, that phrasing seems to be tied to the completion of the hull.--
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
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File:Yavuz (Goeben) battlecruiser Istambul April 1946 - cropped.jpg
1315:- sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool.
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All the images are suitably licensed, either Bundesarkiv or US gov
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That's from Sturm's OSN source, so he'll have to field that one.
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spent over 40 years on active service, more than double that of
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I think I've got everything - thanks for catching all of those.
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1071:... managed to sink one of the colliers. The following day,
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had served longer but had been in for much of that time.
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1248:. Hence it might warrant a small note. Just an idea...
511:. Thoughts? Consistency works better at FAC. - Dank (
795:
It was a misspelling, we have an article ... thanks
1499:If you look at an old version of the article (like
902:"At 17:00" ... Turkish time? German time? - Dank (
1577:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
118:Featured article candidates/SMS Goeben/archive1
43:. No further edits should be made to this page.
1583:No further edits should be made to this page.
29:The following is an archived discussion of a
1389:Do we have an article for Russian destroyer
1013:Okay, I'll change it to "around 7". - Dank (
41:Knowledge talk:Featured article candidates
14:
1075:and another submarine tried to attack
912:Parsec will have to handle that one.--
18:Knowledge:Featured article candidates
1436:AFAIK they were not navy colliers.--
194:) 14:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC) and
1223:I thought the ship was named after
23:
1240:, hence the original Ottoman name
1236:It was, and Selim I was nicknamed
973:Rephrased to clarify chronology.--
24:
1595:
486:I notice you guys are going with
428:Thanks, I linked to the article (
164:) 14:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
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31:featured article nomination
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307:—2c Citation consistency
56:18:47, 30 September 2010
1580:Please do not modify it.
1268:The article states that
36:Please do not modify it.
1413:this decision as well.
630:OK, this one I fixed.--
1393:? If so, please link.
1179:I made it so. - Dank (
663:got this one. - Dank (
724:Looks good. - Dank (
505:("His Majesty's Ship
497:instead of the usual
334:These are all done.--
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1242:Yavuz Sultan Selim
470:applies. - Dank (
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841:the Turks.--
832:push to talk
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210:image review
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139:Citation bot
69:
54:SandyGeorgia
49:
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35:
28:
1279:XavierGreen
1250:Constantine
1213:Constantine
223:talk to me?
1517:New Jersey
1505:New Jersey
1488:New Jersey
1468:New Jersey
963:. - Dank (
955:Note that
932:) - Dank (
876:. - Dank (
799:. - Dank (
468:disclaimer
317:confusion.
268:was using
72:SMS Goeben
65:SMS Goeben
1521:Parsecboy
1474:TomStar81
1353:Parsecboy
1351:Removed.
1298:Parsecboy
1139:Linked.--
1104:Parsecboy
1053:Parsecboy
1027:Parsecboy
961:this edit
957:User:John
712:Parsecboy
661:User:John
481:Questions
434:Parsecboy
412:Geography
394:Parsecboy
354:Parsecboy
274:Parsecboy
216:Jimfbleak
188:Parsecboy
158:Parsecboy
1501:this one
1329:Comments
1317:Ealdgyth
1313:Comments
322:Fifelfoo
242:How did
134:Analysis
50:promoted
1542:Support
1513:(BB-35)
1470:(BB-62)
1294:Loreley
1292:Though
1274:Breslau
1266:Comment
1225:Selim I
1209:Support
521:Done.--
464:Support
368:Comment
305:Comment
126:Toolbox
89:protect
84:history
1270:Goeben
1100:Tyulen
1081:Tyulen
1073:Tyulen
1069:Tyulen
870:Goeben
820:Dank (
749:Goeben
745:Goeben
507:Goeben
502:Goeben
493:Goeben
266:Goeben
244:Goeben
183:Goeben
93:delete
1511:Texas
1454:Yavoz
1246:Yavuz
1238:Yavuz
1086:Yavuz
1077:Yavuz
874:Yavuz
416:PL290
406:FYI,
379:PL290
374:Liman
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1525:talk
1509:USS
1478:Talk
1466:USS
1442:talk
1422:talk
1402:talk
1379:talk
1357:talk
1343:talk
1321:Talk
1302:talk
1283:talk
1277:war.
1272:and
1171:talk
1145:talk
1108:talk
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847:talk
797:John
777:talk
716:talk
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636:talk
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527:talk
500:SMS
438:talk
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278:talk
270:RAPs
200:talk
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162:talk
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
1519:).
490:SMS
432:).
52:by
1564:Ed
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