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1025:"Russian bylinas are a Novgorodian interpretation of epic stories. Novgorod, which in the 9th - 11th centuries was a part of Kievan Rus', took from the center not only epics, but also Kievan chronicles, construction, architecture. Not being subjected to devastating Mongol-Tatar attacks, the people of Novgorod preserved the remnants of the ancient Kievan epic. Having moved to the north of Russia, the epics became entrenched in the Russian epic. They are also known among the Cossack population of Kuban. In Ukraine, they were replaced by dumas — a reaction to a new wave of Tatar and Turkish invasion of Ukrainian lands."
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are visible wounds on the relics and he probably died from one of them. He is also rather tall for his time - about 177 cm - and has traces of backbone illness that could have left him paralyzed. But many scientists argue that the epic Ilia
Muromets is a kind of a fairy-tale character and has no real prototype - only the name could be taken from some real warrior and there could be a great many of them since any Ilia who was born near Murom or served there could be named this way. --
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1066:"Ukrainian bylyny mainly evolved into other folklore formats, and yet a significant number of Ukrainian bylynas about Ilko Murovets have reached our time." sourced. It is noted that they mainly evolved into other folklore formats, but some of them have survived, so, your point? As I said, you are just trying to create an issue, that different viewpoints weren't properly presented in the article.
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1084:, it says: "An epic song of the Kyivan Rus’ era that has not survived in Ukraine but are still sung in northern Russia, where it is called starina... According to Ukrainian scholars, the bylyny ceased to be sung by the Ukrainian people in the 17th century, when turbulent events gave rise to a new epic song form—the Cossack duma".
988:"Kievan versions" refers to original Rus' bylinas, while Kievan Cycle, or other cycles simply suggest where a story takes place. Other elements are opened to interpretation, that's why in russian bylinas these heroes come from modern russian cities which didn't even exist during the reign of Vladimir the Great.
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Ilya
Muromets is connected to the "Ukrainian Polanian tribe"? He may have been born in Moroviysk in present-day Chernihiv region of Ukraine? Currently we have Western sources cited that do not say this and this looks like to be the generally accepted version. The version of "Ilya of Morovsk" does not
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Even
Shevchuk says something similar in "Українські билини": "Bylyny are narrative songs that were recorded in Olonechshchyna, Arkhangelsk and other remote Russian areas... Somewhere in the same way, we also look at the epics recorded in Russia: they are the spiritual heritage of the Russian people,
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Check the sources I added and you will this figure reffered to as Ілько Муровець in
Ukrainian bylyny, which is romanized as Ilko Murovets. "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to
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Hrytsa S. Y. Byliny of the Kievan Cycle // History of
Ukrainian Music: In 7 vol. Vol. 1. Book. 1: From the earliest times to the 18th century. Folk music /National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Rylsky Institute of Art Studies, Folklore and Ethnology, editor:H. A. Skrypnyk(head) and others. — K.,
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The monk known as
Reverend Ilia Muromets whose relics are stored in Kiev Pecharsky Monastery was canonized in 1643. At the time there was no doubt that he was the epic Ilia Muromets. This is also the official point of view of the Orthodox church. But in fact nothing is known about this monk. There
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What is "original Rus' bylinas"? Such oral epic poetry that did not really survive in the southern regions and are mostly known from isolated northern regions. They may have originated in the southern regions, but they were only collected in the 18th/19th century and as a result, they reflect
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The same source says: "In 2003 Valerii
Shevchuk published a collection of Ukrainian-language prose and verse texts analogous to the bylyny... Some of Shevchuk’s verse texts are reproduced from collections of folk tales... Others, however, were transcribed by Shevchuk from Ukrainian-language
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Western sources aren't "must have", especially if the subject is not as popular in the west. My changes don't intervene with
Russian interpretation. What exactly should I prove "mainstream"? In Kievan version, Morivsk is most likely location, while in russian it's Murom. Russian bylinas are
926:. Please find modern Western sources that support this version. The sources you used do not trump the reliable sources currently used, which you sidelined as 'Russian interpretations'. You also placed emphasis on an outdated version that was suggested by some imperial-era historians.
596:(Russian: Мурома) were one of Finno-Ugric tribes who lived in the Oka River basin of what is now Russia. The tribe farmed, hunted, and traded. The Muromians paid tribute to the Rus princes and were likely assimilated by the Eastern Slavs in the 12th century into modern Russians.
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I read bylina, where three unnamed piligrims come to Ilya's house when he was alone and ask for food and drink, but Ilya answer "I can't walk". Then piligrims ask again and again. At third time Ilya get off from stove where he lied. If you read russian you can use
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recreations of bylyny composed and performed by banduryst
Zinovii Shtokalko." The point is, byliny did not survive in Ukraine. It may be worth briefly mentioning other appearances but now how you edited the article, including the section specifically about byliny.
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the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." this is exactly, what this article did before you tried to revert my changes. All viewpoints were properly represented, you're just creating an issue out of nowhere to seemingly note
Russian-POV only.
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You also need to avoid inserting your own commentary and editorializing already-sourced statements when making edits. If a statement is already supported by a source, you cannot change the meaning in a way that is not supported by the source.
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I have a vivid memory of seeing a cartoon on TV called "Ilya Muromets." I believe the hero's theme music was from Mahler's 1st symphony. I think the cartoon was a Soviet production and was shown on NYC TV during a thaw in relations.
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Mykula Selyaninovich is connected to Polanian tribe. Currently, there are two versions of his birthplace, original Kievan and Russian. Both are cited. There's no need to POV-Push russian version only.
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but they can also tell a lot about the epic creativity of the people of Kyiv, our immediate ancestors, in particular, about the times about which they preserve memories - the era of Volodymyr Great."
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Also regarding "Rus' people", my changes could easily be put into Etymology, why is there a need for you to delete all my changes every single time? What exactly do you consider "editorializing?
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That's all there is to say. Russian bylinas are just another interpretation of original Rus' bylinas, your POV is that the origin of the genre shouldn't be presented in the article, ridiculous.
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There is no "original Rus' bylinas", they do not exist and we do not know exactly the origins. There was some preservation of such characters in Cossack songs but this is a different genre.
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Any additional claims I make I support with new sources (show me example where I don't). Some sentences need to be rephrased to emphasizes on them as a different point of view.
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805:, is not a character only in Russian folklore, but also in folklore of other Slavic countries. Therefore, calling him exclusively Russian is incorrect. --
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There are recordings of some of them in Ukraine. But again, how my changes oppose that they're sung in russia? How my changes oppose any point of view?
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Any printed evidence that Ilya Muromets was of Muromian tribe rather than simply from Murom region? Please cite your sources. - Altenmann
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Also, no, in Rus' people article my changes also refer to people, first Varangian people then Polianian people. Another false accuse.
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vol. 2 which was originally published in 1932. Although the statement about the birthplace was not even sourced in the first place.
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Notes in the article:Ukrainian: Ілля Муромець, romanized: Illia Muromets. It seems to me you're just pushing Russian-POV.
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centuries of change. You also need to prove that this is a "significant viewpoint" and not a fringe view.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20050330145144/http://www.museum.murom.ru:80/wwwmus/history/xa-xa.htm
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look to be accepted anymore. The only mention I could find in a Western source is
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referring to the "hero Ilko Murovets" and referring to Ukrainian legends.
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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add this to article because his ethnicity is Ugric not Slavic
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C-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
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