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a restoration of the chruch of Christ. However, to state they are not
Christian goes too far and puts one's judgement on a par with God's. The creeds created 325 years after Christ are what tradtional Christianity must believe, but it is not the definition of a Christian. A Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ, that He offered His life to pay the price of our sins, that He rose the third day that we might live again, and that His atoning sacrifice makes it possible to live with Heavenly Father.
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in a position to say what is and what is not
Christian. To define someone or some group as non-Christian is to state that Christ is not active in their life/lives and that is an impossibility for anyone to say. To use this logic, one must necessarily put themselves in the place of a judge; who is "saved" and who is isn't. We are simply incapable of seeing and knowing the heart of man and thus incapable of knowing whether someone "knows" Christ and follows Him or not.
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certainly, before we are at our most faithful expression. But the Church is the Body of Christ, nevertheless. Therefore, the creeds and the defining beliefs of the early Church (i.e., Trinity, Incarnation, etc.) are definitive beliefs, since the Spirit moves in (and sometimes in spite of) the Church. The
Mormons (and other "Restorationist" groups) are incorrect in my view in claiming that they have "reclaimed" the true gospel; it was never lost (in my opinion).
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in the light of compromised denominations (like my own) which had in many ways become too "establishment". From a strict historic POV, Mormonism is part of that. Yes, it professes direct revelation from Jesus...whether or not that is true is a matter of faith. But when
Mormonism arose and the what the historic factors were that led to its creation are a matter of the historic record. Fair? KHM03 23:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
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887:, I removed my AfD nomination, and we subsequently agreed to redirect the article. If I violated an AfD policy about which I am unaware, I apologize; I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that I had that authority as the nominator. I have no problem with a disambiguation page...is the cartoon character a real cartoon character? Also, I removed the stuff on the
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would put yourself in my shoes, and I termed you non-Christain. Yes, you would still know that you were a disciple of Christ, you would feel some pity for me using such a term, but you would eventually bristle because that to which you have dedicated your life, Jesus Christ, is denigrated by another who claims to follow the Lord.
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of apostasy. Though I study the writings and thoughts of many members of other churches and respect their witness of Christ and am strengthened by them, I have no interest in joining their respective churches. They all have some truth in them and attempt to follow Christ as best as they understand it.
389:, etc.). But all affirm those agreed upon universal essentials (again, Trinity, Incarnation, etc.). My understanding is that the Mormon "distinctives" threaten or invalidate those "universal essentials". I could be wrong; I'm no Mormon scholar...that's just what I've been told by folks smarter than I!
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consider
Mormons to be outside. Now, the Church is of course a very POV institution, but for WP to state that mainstream Christianity considers Mormons to be non-Christians is just a statement of fact. (It's also interesting that you shared your concern that the creeds "...go further than scripture
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I believe (and could be wrong) that the problem with
Mormonism from the POV of "mainstream Christianity" is that several of the additional doctrines affirmed by Mormons invalidate the essentials of the gospel. Every group has its distinctives, to be sure (Methodists have prevenient grace, Calvinists
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I am perfectly comfortable with a group saying "Mormons do not meet the standards of tradtionial/historical
Christianity". That is a perfectly defensible position and it is true. Mormons do not meet the standards of traditional Christianity because Mormons believe there was an apostasy that required
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K, I think I have a good understanding of your position and in most instances do not disagree. I also appreciate your desire to be honest and not to back away from your beliefs. That is commendable. However, I do disagree with the terminology you use. Historical or traditional
Christianity is not
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For example, if a Roman
Catholic or a Presbyterian desires to join a United Methodist Church, we accept their baptism as legitimately Christian and just have them take membership vows. If a Mormon desires to join, on the other hand, they must be baptized, as the UMC does not recognize Mormon baptism
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I have been a student of religion all my life. It has never ceased to amaze me at how far churches and ministers of respective churches go to identify those who are not "saved" enough or at all. It is the mind set that burned people at the stake, that enables individuals to feel that persecution of
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I don't have a problem with your language...that
Restorationism didn't "spawn" Mormonism. I didn't mean that. I meant that Mormonism was a part of this movement...not that Smith was inspired by Campbell, or vice versa. But the same feeling was "in the air"...that Christianity needed a kick in the
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Mormonism as a historical movement began as part of "restorationism"...which was a movement in American religion which sought to regain "life" in religion by getting "back to basics" and returning in some way to "basic Christianity". The idea was to "restore" Christianity to what it was meant to be,
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For me, the term heretic does not deny my belief in Christ. As I said before, it implies that there is a disagreement about beliefs. Calling me non-Christian is highly offensive and I would hope that when you speak about or to Latter-day Saints you would refrain from using that term. Maybe if you
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Yes, there is a disconnect in our respective definitions of "the Church". The mere fact that a group of men got together 325 years after Christ and argued for months about what is doctrine at the behest of a political leader in order to achieve his political goals is evidence that there may be some
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The creeds attempt to summarize a specific interpretation of scripture, but it is only one interpretation of scripture. Further, they go further than scripture does and attempt to address mysteries the New Testament does not address. Just as you must be honest and faithful to your beliefs, so must
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Mormons who are "saved", and many Methodists, and many Buddhists, etc. What saves is the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and one can be saved even if one fails to affirm the traditional Christian faith. Affirming traditional Christianity might make it easier to declare some who are surely "in", but
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on the topic but surely balant POVs are very clear to spot. So, I'd do my best spotting those from both sides. I hope editors of these kind of articles try to include sources more often to ease the work. Maybe I, too, have a POV regarding those articles (that I don't fancy them) but I'd never try to
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I feel like I keep passing you without gaining understanding, I must be a very poor communicator. Let me try again. Mormonism began during period when several other groups began in the 1800's. All of the groups believed that there was an apostasy wherein the true gospel of Christ had been lost.
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is outside of God's grace, whether they call Jesus "Lord" or not, whether they are Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, or whatever. What someone believes is not relevant as to whether they experience God's prevenient grace...everyone does, whether or not they
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The essentials as you call them are really a requirement to be part of the tradtional or historic Christian church, but certainly not a defnition of being Christian that can be demonstrated using the New Testament. As a LDS, I reject the historic Christian church because I believe it is in a state
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Without a doubt, but none of them professed a similar restoration. They all carried the concept of sola scriptura to a new, more stringent level. If scripture did not say it, then it was not said. Scholarly dissertation was anathema. My personal viewpoint, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Campbell, and
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Do I like either term? No, I would prefer to be called a Latter-day Saint. However, I understand the need of traditional Christians to feel compelled to strike out at the chruch. Sadly, it has ever been the nature of our relationship with each other. On a brighter note, no problem with feeling
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be saved. That is why Mormons are considered the mission field...not because they are going to Hell, but because only those who proclaim the "genuine" (for lack of a better word) Jesus can know for sure. Again, I hope there are lots of atheists, Buddhists, Mormons, etc. in the Kingdom, but can't
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In the vast majority of Protestanism one must simply accept Christ as his/her Savior to be saved by the Grace of God...except if you are Mormon. If you are Mormon, then you not only must accept Jesus as your personal Savior, but you must accept the creeds of man created 325 years after Christ and
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Hi K, I wrote the UMCOR article you put an image on. Thanks =) The article was for a class project so it wasn't the greatest; I hope it was still to your liking. Anyway, the real reason I am posting: I am an undergrad senior looking for a seminary, and I see you are a UMC Elder. From what I
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It is entirely appropriate to put Mormonism within the Restoration Movement, but it is not appropriate to state it was "spawned", descended, grew out of, the restoraton movement. Joseph Smith was not motivated to get back to basics, he was responding to direction from God. In summary, Mormonism
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That's the problem in the Christianity article. According to what most people consider Christianity, Mormonism (et al) deny "essentials" and are thus "outside" the Church Universal. I'm surprised that you prefer "heretic" to "non-Christian", especially when the Church considers them one and the
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believe that there was an apostasy which separated the "traditional/mainstream" Church from the Truth. I think that the Church Univsersal (which on WP we define as the three main branches), while imperfect, are the Body of Christ which will exist until the end of time. We have a long way to go,
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Ah, the image crusades! There is a push to delete all non-sourced images; apparently, the gold star was deleted because I didn't source it, and I deleted the SEA because I don't remember the source. Anyhow, I have reuploaded the gold star and properly sourced it, and I found a replacement for the
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K, I read your comment in the Christianity talk regarding Restorationism. A distinction may be in order. Mormonism did not orgininate or descend from the restoration movement. Rather, it professes to be a church that was restored directly by Jesus Christ through a prophet. It belongs in the
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In closing, thank you for the distinctions you made above. I hope that you will support using the same terminology in the article. Though it may not be a significant difference to you, it means a great deal to me. Calling me a heretic means we have a disagreement in beliefs, but calling me
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K, I believe you when you state that the Grace of God is available to all. However, my statement is that when you claim someone is not Christian or "the mission field", you are also stating that the Grace of God is not in their life, but only avaiable to them if they convert to "tradional
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You are free, as a human being, to reject the wisdom and authority of the Church. You are free to profess any faith you desire. But the Church (not KHM03) has determined that those outside traditional Christianity are the mission field, whether we like that or not. It's just the way it
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Restoration Movement because it professes an apostasy. However, it unlike other/most restorationist groups that believe they could recover the restored faith/church through limiting the gospel to only that found in the scriptures as they understood them. JW's,
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article as it was nonsensical, non-wiki-formatted, and placed by a vandal with a talk page full of warnings...it wasn't meant to be a legitimate contribution to the article; it was vandalism (the user has since been blocked). Thanks for the heads
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2) Ten years later the Church of Christ (later the name was changed to The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints) was founded after the restoration of the priesthood, the publication of the Book of Mormon, a second witness that Jesus was the
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read on your page, we seem similar theologically. Any thoughts on good seminaries? I'm considering Duke and Emory right now, but I haven't made any decisions. Feel free to email me if you have time. dancey(at)uiuc(dot)edu. Take care. -Drew
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The other churches all claimed that the truthfulness of the Gospel of Christ could be regained by a closer interpretation of the scripture. No authority needed to be restored and no "restoration" was claimed. Only a "better" interpretation of
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1) In 1820 a 14 year old boy prayed for guidance to join the true chruch. The answer he received from God the Father and Jesus Christ was to join none of them. Joseph Smith was not an educated man, nor was he ever educated as judged by the
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of your recent edit (about racial artistic perspectives)...I just think it could be worded a bit better. Would you mind clarifying it a bit, when you have an opportunity? It also might help if someone decides to get rid of it. Thanks for
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claims to be responding to direct intervention and others claim to be responding to a dissatisfaction with doctrine and spirituality of existing religions. The difference may be fine in the eyes of some, but it is not a subtle difference.
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say for sure unless someone professes Jesus (as understood by his Church). Yet again, I think it's a mistake to say who is condemned...but it is an equally sad mistake not to try and evangelize those who are outside the Church Universal.
327:. It is here that I find a fullness to the Gospel that I was not able to find in other Christian chruches. For me, it was the difference between a diet of milk and a diet with additional meat. I found more truth in the LDS church.
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room for concern. As I said, they were a group of men creating doctrines of men. The issue is definitional; historical Christain vs. Christian. Without clearly stating the definition of the words being used, we will have a problem.
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active in someone's life...whether they are Methodist, Roman Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, or Atheist. I believe a billion percent that Jesus is active in your life via prevenient grace, just as he is active in mine. Praise
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KHM03, thanks for your support on my RFA. I very much appreciate it. I've enjoyed working with you on several of the Christianity articles. If you ever need anything, don't hesitate to ask. See you around!
281:...the Church has defined that proclamation as the proclamation of Jesus as portrayed in the New Testament and further identified by the Church as the second person of the Trinity. These are not
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good news! We can agree to disagree regarding Mormonism & mainstream, traditional Christianity. And, if you prefer "heretic" to "non-Christian", that's fine with me. I'm not married to
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1022:, which is not present in Knowledge. This work is over 100 years old, and so the information needs updating once copied over, e.g. by taking account of subsequent scholarship (e.g.
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I'm not sure if you're watchung the AFD God man page, but I edited the article, making it accurate and, clearly, notable. Would you consider withdrawing your nomination? Thanks.
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Accept my thanks for your support at my RFA. I hope I have been able to sufficiently answer any outstanding questions regarding my conduct in the Arbcom matter. Sincerely, -
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I. Though I admire many of early, tradtional church fathers and so many good Christian people today, my admiration does not prevent me from also being a faithful member of
861:), even if you are the nominator. Also, please be careful in using an edit summary such as "rvv" when you are removing a new paragrpah contributed by another editor (
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Christianity". For example, when you state Mormons are not Christian, aren't you also saying they can not know Christ as their personal Savior and still be Mormon?
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I have purposely left off all the caveats about this being a conversation of faith, beliefs, etc. I assume that we both know from which position we are speaking.
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the need to proselytize among Mormns, we certainly will not stop sending missionaries into all the world to preach the joy of the restored gospel of Christ. :)
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does...", considering that this is the precise reason why Mormonism hasn't been received by the Church Universal...they add to & go further than Scripture!)
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as Christian. Why? Because Mormons believe certain things (which you would know about better than I) that the Church feels are incompatible with Christianity.
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4) Personal revelation is one of the cornerstone's of the church. One does not gain a testimony by reading scripture, but by the witness of the Holy Spirit.
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Interpretations from historic groups cast as heretics by the mainstream, including esoteric traditions (such as from groups like those responsible for the
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They felt the Reformation was a good starting point, but just did not go far enough. The difference between Mormonism and the other groups is significant:
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Its goal is to increase the amount of information originating from academia in biblical articles, as it is noticably lacking at the moment, this includes
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and others take the concept of sola scriptura to a complete new level whereas LDS believe that the restoration required a direct intervention from God.
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3) The restored church was founded, as directed by Christ, with the same structure as in the ancient chruch, prophets, apostle, pastors, teachers, etc.
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Appears to have stopped now. The pattern of the vandalism seems to suggest that it is from some school IP. Let's hope their computer lesson is over.
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Interpretations from historic groups who were once the mainstream, but where the interpretation is no longer supported by the mainstream.
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I hope this helps; it is never my desire to be judgmental, but I always need to be honest. If I can clear anything up, let me know.
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pants. Smith felt that he had been spoken to by God largely because of the "stale" nature of American religion. I think we agree.
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But I rightfully get angry because everything I do goes unappreciated. I am convinced that Friday treats vandals better than me!
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Mention, and summary, of historical commentaries (i.e. commentaries interpreting the subject from people thousands of years ago)
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And may I add my RfA thanks as well. I hope that we'll have more of an opportunity to collaborate on articles in the future. --
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Hello, I want to thank you for your support of my RfA. I look forward to running into you again around the project. Best,
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saying that Christ is not active in their lives...far from it! The doctrine of prevenient grace teaches us that Christ is
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Let me say that I rejoice that you feel you have experienced God's grace...whether as a LDS or anything else. God is so,
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label. Hope this helps and that, in trying to fairly represent the very POV position of the Church, I haven't seemed to
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Are you sure you don't want to be an admin? I'd really like to nominate you. You certainly have most of the credentials.
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I agree with you...that article could never stand as was, I just wanted to address the topic...which I plan to do
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I have steadfastly refused in my ministry to identify those who are "out", or "unsaved", or "damned". I simply
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Eh, he was just having a bad day. We all do. He got all gushy on me and several other people last night on IRC.
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Dear KHM03, can you please have another word with Storm rider. He seems not to understand what my edit on
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felt that they were directed by God, just like Smith...and Luther, Calvin, Wesley, John Paul II, etc.
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795:'s godmode-light.js. Good to see someone appreciates my work, RC patrol is often a thankless job. :) -
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non-Christian is a slur that attempts to negate my relatinship with Christ and that is unacceptable.
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352:"Mainstream Christianity" (which I typically call the Church Universal in the real world!) is
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Yeah, I saw; it hasn't done anything for about an hour, if it starts again, I'll nail it. --
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words...they belong to the Church Universal, dating back to (at least) the Nicene Creed-era.
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others because of their beliefs is acceptable, and to further discriminate in our day.
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John Paul II were all inspired. That would also be the viewpoint of the LDS Church.
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saved. Profession of Jesus Christ as Lord is a testament to that unchanging truth.
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for a definition of vandalism. One reason that this is important is because of the
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And, again, to say that someone is outside the Church and is a non-Christian is
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Hi, I wondered if you might be interested in joining a long term Wikiproject
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This also includes transferring the information present in the public domain
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consider Mormonism to be non-Christian. That's not a POV observation...they
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Hi. Please don't remove AfD tags before the discussion at AfD is finished (
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no one can declare who is surely "out". That's up to God, and God alone.
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Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
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to discernment, called to evangelize those who are "not saved" or who
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Thank you for your support on my RfA. It is sincerely appreciated.
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And dopuble thanks for the support on my (not successful) RfA.
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Don't worry about it, I've been "robbed" a lot lately! ;-) --
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stops calling to us, reaching for us, loving us! That's
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PS - I'll betcha that the other Restorationist groups
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and all that goes with him, the Eastern Orthodox have
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judgmental...that hasn't been my intention. Peace...
393:same thing! But the Church Universal by and large
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122:Hi KHM03. Thanx for the message. I am not that
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296:Now, having said that, I pray that there are
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701:Thank you so much for these comments.
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901:"God-man" is a recurring character in
245:Storm Rider -- The grace of God is
80:Strides in Ecuminsim Award. ;-) --
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1024:Martin Noth
1012:Apologetics
969:Wikiproject
753:Take care,
636:Storm Rider
569:Storm Rider
487:Storm Rider
461:Storm Rider
342:Storm Rider
333:Storm Rider
237:Storm Rider
42:Wikifanatic
797:Greg Asche
540:scripture.
423:personally
950:WP:RFA/SV
255:Methodism
180:Thank you
103:Sjakkalle
63:Borisblue
49:Karmafist
107:(Check!)
1047:Johntex
927:Molotov
838:God-man
758:Molotov
706:Molotov
658:Str1977
520:Christ.
358:may not
1056:My RFA
932:(talk)
918:Thanks
907:Jkelly
892:ups...
885:Gator1
875:Jkelly
845:Gator1
818:thames
808:Thanks
800:(talk)
763:(talk)
711:(talk)
516:world.
419:either
415:really
370:always
354:called
247:indeed
163:Essjay
147:Essjay
124:fluent
82:Essjay
71:Images
57:Admin?
894:KHM03
783:Bible
689:KHM03
684:point
677:Jesus
610:KHM03
587:KHM03
427:KHM03
411:never
387:icons
377:have
306:KHM03
129:Svest
16:<
1034:).
863:here
859:here
789:CDVF
395:does
383:Pope
373:God!
298:many
171:Talk
153:Talk
86:Talk
31:....
961:eve
675:Re:
606:all
366:not
346:not
289:is.
279:But
275:are
271:can
257:.
94:Re
84:·
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957:St
666:Hi
481:,
407:so
399:do
283:my
204:•
1005:)
959:|
816:—
206:@
202:t
167:·
150:·
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