Knowledge talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 5

8290:

so on his talk page from others. In the end, Thatcher posted a good argument, and that persuaded me to change my stance somewhat. Whether my stance would have changed still further if Everyking had turned up and made a further statement after the motions had been posted, I don't know. But there is only so much time that can be devoted to one case. I gave Everyking the chance to comment at the motions after I posted them, and he didn't post there. I'm still happy to discuss those motions with him on-wiki for a brief time, but he rebuffed his chance to comment at the motions themselves, and thus pointedly passed over his chance to plead his case in the formal sense at the correct time and place (he entered the initial appeal, but then refused to say anything further, even when prompted). This kind of behaviour alone (putting aside all the past history) gave me pause for thought. I would also point out that Everyking asked Brad to explain his stance, and Brad never did so. Also, Phil Sandifer was notified, but never entered a statement. There are a lot of things being left unsaid here. I don't think that is good, but I can't require fellow arbitrators or non-restricted parties to make statements. What I can (personally) require, is that the person whose restrictions are being lifted, returns to the venue where he filed the appeal, and engages with the process after motions are filed, rather than staying away and refusing to post on-wiki. As for the number and details of appeals filed, I may provide that here to lay out the full details for those not aware of them. Finally, as to the general point, it is no more or less than an application of the principle that people should not be able to appeal at whim. Along with the option to lift the restriction entirely, I provided a simple option to limit Everyking to an appeal every year - that was rejected (though there were signs that an option based on filing only if there were grounds for appeal would have gained traction). I provided this "expiration date" option as an alternative (inspired by Dominic's comment) and added the "resetting of the appeal" clause to encourage Everyking to let this matter go and let it end quietly, and it passed. So the end result is that an expiration date has been set, and if Everyking choses to post an appeal (for example, when new arbitrators arrive in January 2010, or in six months time in February 2010), then he has to make a conscious choice between repeated appeals on a matter of principle or letting the restriction expire. It will be then be clear whether he wants the restriction to end, or whether he wants it formally lifted to make a point. Of course, the new arbitration committee may just lift his restriction, which is why I left that option in place - in other words, he is free to make new appeals, but he has to understand that

4620:

things either claims power greater than it has (e.g. a the power to appoint rule-makers to to make policy or content decisions that Arbcom itself is not entitled to make), or where Arbcom delegates its obligatory duties. The first should be obvious: the US Supreme Court has the power to review laws but not to make them. Thus, they cannot form a committee to evaluate the laws on a given subject and enact a reform of those laws. The second is more subtle but even more vital. The US has appointed certain individuals to personally hear and decide cases. They are certainly allowed a plethora of interns and professional staffers. However, a judge may not simply appoint their agent to sit in for them. There's a great deal of jurisprudence on this having to do with congressional committees, and also in corporate governance for boards of directors. By extension, Arbcom can hire advisors to recommend actions, but it cannot take its own hands off the keyboard, so to speak. Under this theory Arbcom members must personally make Arbcom decisions, weighing whatever advice and recommendations come their way. If it's just a question of where Arbcom turns for advice, then frankly, the secrecy, methods, rules, conflicts of interest, etc., are a matter solely for Arbcom to consider. However, if Arbcom proposes to transfer one iota of authority to the committee, or entrust in the committee any powers that exceed those of Arbcom, then the community must approve.

3921:" Ottava, what an earth are you jabbering on about. We are not a military and even if we were Kirill has not shown cowardice in the face of the enemy. For the simple reason there is no enemy, we have an Arb - who as far as I'm aware was not singularly responsible for the creation of a new committee, but for some reason has become the target of its opposers ire. The Arbcom, with the full support of J Wales, created a committee; it is legal and it's above board. Why Kirill felt the need to resign, I shall not speculate, but if he's anythiing like me, he wold have read those silly comments from those such as Mattisse and yourself and though "fuck the lot of them!" However, like most people who think "fuck it" in the heat of a moment, I hope he now regrets it and decides to reconsider. Either way, he has done nothing wrong - it's a committee on an internet site, it is not desertion in the face of the enemy and to suggest it is half-baked and really rather vile, I suggest you leave this page untill you want to post sensibly. 1966:

personal life because I have ideas, the first of them being to be clearer about the scope of what this group plans to do. I agree with Risker. I think I can offer what insight I have, but I have to know first how my time is going to be spent or wasted and if anyone is going to be listening. I spent years in a major school district watching how advisory committees operate, and that is to say, they were created to give parents and school personnel an outlet for bitching about something, not for actually coming up with solutions to problems. The committees themselves were oddly full of self-importance; their members loved to clear their throats, raise an index finger and make their eloquent points about issues no one really cares about while the school district was quite clear they thought such advisory committees full of imbeciles and walked in a meeting once a year to wave, smile, and say "Great job! You're so invaluable to us!" while all along never entertaining the notion of listening to them ever. --

1061:

the group, so discussion of that would be better. That covers the following point as well, I think. The final point, about dispute resolution, is easier to answer: my understanding is that this group will have little to nothing to do with dispute resolution (other than proposing general ways to improve it). The fact that it was proposed by what is a dispute resolution body (ArbCom) is essentially an artifact of the way ArbCom is sometimes (incorrectly, in my view) looked to for "leadership" (this emerges from the fact that people are elected to ArbCom and thus are seen to represent the community). In reality, taking the lead on issues should come from within the community, but this doesn't always happen. In this case, ArbCom have stepped forward and said "we think a body like this is needed". Hopefully this body will fulfill a role of moving ideas and proposals forward, but also listening to what is said, and still leaving the ultimate disposition and direction of things in the hands of the community.

4074:

illegitimate. Without consulting the larger community and obtaining their approval, I don't believe it is appropriate to maintain such a members-only organization on-wiki. Yes ArbCom is free to seek the advice of anyone they choose, but I don't think ArbCom is free to authorize people to carve out an exclusive WikiProject such that only ArbCom can invite people to participate in it. Such an organization needs the community's blessing if it is going to justify limiting participation from the larger community. I also fear that the group as presently constructed is likely to accomplish little, and hence would be a poor use of my limited time. I don't hold any ill-will towards anyone who has chosen to participate, as I assume everyone involved is trying to make the best of a less than perfect situation. I would strongly urge those people who do participate to focus initially on creating an organization that is both functional and has some hope of claiming the support of the larger community.

10668:). I know I e-mailed you a number of hours ago before any of this blew up and discretely advised you to take some offensive images down from your talk page, and I know you ignored that advice and only dug your heels in further at that point. I know it's long past time for you to go to bed now, and that there are a lot of good-faith editors who will not go within a thousand wiki-yards of you from this point forward, so unbelievably offensive, self-centered, and childish has been your behavior the past however-many-hours. I don't know for sure, but I think you actually want to be banned, because otherwise I can't explain what you are doing right now. I know, despite all our disagreements in the past, that I previously looked at you as a largely good contributor who went way off the rails at times but remained a credit to the project. Now--and FYI the above comment crossed the line for me, though obviously my frustration was building--I'm utterly done interacting with you. -- 1790:

never proposed it. I think there are other ways to achieve the same goal. The community itself could develop a process to investigate broad issues, a sort of enhanced RFC, with similarities to an ArbCom case, but open, with the goal of achieving consensus. I had also thought of an executive committee, to transfer some executive powers from ArbCom to this committee, with relations with ArbCom to be determined. But I had always thought the community should decide on whether to create this or not, and not ArbCom. The selection of members should be thoroughly discussed. As of now, I can see users who I know have a strong opinion w.r.t. to certain issues, in such a number, that it is not representative of the community view. The initial pool should be enlarged. Questions: (1) Where and by who has it been discussed previously, who made the proposal ? (2) Is this subject to community review, that is, more directly, can the community decide to shut this down at any time ?

1174:

time of my vote, I have noticed that several proposals brought forward by individual editors, or in some cases small groups of editors, have failed to gain momentum sufficient to actually result in any decisions, despite the fact that they were serious ideas worthy of consideration. While I remain concerned about "scope" issues here (and hence did not change my vote), I am quite impressed with the calibre of editors who have accepted the opportunity to participate in large-scale, broad-representation teamwork to try to develop comprehensive proposals that address project issues identified both recently and as perennial proposals. If this works, and helps the project to move forward in some areas where we've been spinning our wheels for a while, fantastic. If it doesn't result in any change, at least a group of our excellent contributors have had the chance to get to know others from within the project whose paths they may not have crossed otherwise.

4681:

that they have proposed a significant change and were able to get the community to go along with it. To take a smaller example, if this comment is read by others who are then convinced by my argument, I will have attained a small degree of power simply be getting other folks to go along with my thinking (even if I'm unaware of it). The ability to persuade is indicative of some level of power, on Knowledge or in real life. Veteran editors and/or admins tend to have an advantage in terms of efforts to be persuasive, and a group of them who set up shop at the behest of ArbCom would likely have an even greater advantage in this regard (though given the negative reaction, maybe not). Indeed isn't that the whole point of why this was created—important stuff isn't getting done so we need a thinktank/policy shop to get the community moving in a certain direction or directions? If so then claims that this group "has no power" are not remotely tenable.

1468:

work on. However, I don't like WikiProjects or any sort of group. I tend to keep to myself because it allows me to focus. Why? Because groups tend to breed cliques, have people assume power, and try to dominate others. They avoid the purpose and instead follow standard mindsets in such situations. Instead of focusing on how to get the job done, people care more about how they are seen. If someone wants to help me, they can come and edit, add wikilinks, add categories, or a million other tasks I can assign them to. Coming up with some obscure opinion about some governance wont help. We have ArbCom to settle decisions that can't be decided. We don't need a council of people with skewed viewpoints putting out some idea that wont help create content any faster. I don't care for groups, because groups are never around when there are things to be done. We need more workers and not "advisers".

2901:

blown out of proportion to some degree. People don't like the conception or the rollout, as you say. At that point why not simply discuss it further? Honestly I think further discussion could lead to something very similar to what was initially proposed and which the Arb members could absolutely live with, but which would be benefited by the fact that other "regular community" editors felt that they had some input into it. Also I'll stipulate that, while the rollout was bad, perhaps the community response was injudicious (too quick and too harsh) and therefore problematic as well. I just don't think anyone should be putting up barriers yet between those with opposing views and those who conceived of this or suggesting that the "consensus" has decided anything of substance. It hasn't, and there's plenty of room for agreement. --

4254:

advice, not one which wields authority (as has been made clear). Comments should then be invited from the community as to how such a body should be constituted, how large it should be, what is its remit, how members are appointed etc. Individual editors, be they members of Arbcom or not, should be free to contribute to developing such an idea onwiki. There is unlikely to be agreement on a single model, but there might be some consensus that such a body would be helpful, and an acceptance of mixed and evolving model subject to ongoing scrutiny from the community and Arbcom, preferably without the process of !voting that increasingly deadlocks any contested issue. Again, I am not against Arbcom (with benevolent dictator agreement) recommending and/or supporting a particular approach or set-up

9543:

take more than nine minutes to consider their position when shown such weighty evidence, so I hope everyone reading this can begin to understand my distress in having to deal with someone who has such a belligerent and stubborn approach to "discussion". PMAnderson has consistently misrepresented the purpose of the various MOSs at WP (for his own stated agenda) and continues to argue (to everyone's annoyance) from that faulty basis. It is becoming tiresome and boring. In my humble opinion, PMAnderson should receive a lifetime ban from editing or commenting on any WP MOS page. That would both free him to contribute to other areas of the project (which he does well), and leave alone the people who are keen to progress in defining a worthwhile MOS for the benefit of

8763:

Arbitrators support what. Given that I argued for greater openness in the last election, that is certainly a good thing. But I'm not sure it really promotes that much "openness". The discussions that lead to motions, even really trivial ones like this one, remain hidden. The reasons for Arbs supporting or opposing these motions is usually unclear. Real openness would surely require moving some of the discussion of these decisions to the wiki rather than keeping them on the list. This seems a prime example of a motion where no secrecy over the discussion behind it is necessary. My hope for the future would be that ArbCom give very serious thought in each case to whether their deliberations actually need to private at all - if not, move them back to the wiki.

1946:

merits of each idea can be made. It might be said that the failure of previous similar ideas should tell everyone something, but that depends whether you think the ideas were fundamentally flawed, or just needed fixing and improvement. If you think such ideas are fundamentally flawed, and the "wiki-way" must be allowed full reign, then you are unlikely to ever support a proposal such as this, even though, as Kirill said, exactly the same sort of body could have been set up without ArbCom's involvement and endorsement. The key is whether the failure to set up such a body is a sign of community dysfunction (being too divided to ever come to an agreement on whether such a body is needed), or the community correctly rejecting the need for such a body?

1758:(ec) What was considered in the selection of these members? From my point of view, it is not neutral. Can you reassure me that efforts were made to cast an wide net? I want to feel good about the development of this committee, but I am finding it difficult to do so. I do not feel this group is in any way representative and would like to know by what criteria they were selected, as well as exactly what task they are assigned. I would also like to know who turned membership down, aside from the one case I know about who would have upped the number involved in the arbitration case against me to seven. I sincerely hope this committee does not impact me personally, because of the large number involved in causing me to undergo arbitration. — 1216:

users helping to generate ideas, consider the ideas of others, and fast-track proposals on crucial issues, while still ultimately bound by community consensus, could improve the workings of the project. Given this, I couldn't bring myself to oppose. So in the end I abstained (essentially reserving judgment), while continuing to support the idea in principle. I do intend to follow the development of this group with interest, and have compiled a list of questions which I will ask when the time feels right (it is a bit early to be coming out with a barrage of questions). At the moment, my feeling is that people should be saying whether they support the concept in principle (as I do) and then further discussion can take place later.

9633:- that's not true actually. I was largely unaware of the 19th/nineteenth-century dispute (though my jaw hangs open in disbelief that people can really argue over such things, I can well believe it as I have sometimes fallen into that trap). It was something to do with the date delinking dispute that made me disillusioned with MOS. To be more specific, it was actual incivility that I encountered at MOS. I have never had any problems with people politely arguing their case, even if I think the discussion is pointless, but when people get upset and start using forceful words and overblown rhetoric, that is a sure sign things are escalating. If I could change one thing about the atmosphere at MOS, it would be to add 10597:

seriously considering that you are a jackbooted stormtrooper. This is just a suggestion, but try to thicken you skin a bit on this one if possible and let it go. Also as Risker points out, this noticeboard is simply not the place to discuss this. If you want to vent and dialog about this a bit feel free to send me an e-mail as I'll be online for awhile. I've already e-mailed C of M about the situation (have not heard back) and would be happy to discuss it with you as well, but I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and just step away right now, as in just stop this discussion on-Wiki. Regardless of the specifics of the current situation, Risker gives very good advice above in that regard. --

1298:

body; indeed it would be a waste of time unless it were intended to have an impact on project governance. Moreover, the necessity of maintaining the pretence that it is an advisory body to the Committee will mean that it will never be independent of or escape association with the Committee, which risks retarding any good ideas that it produces. It is true that many proposals to change the way the project operates never get off the ground, but they are typically proposals to change something directly, whereas this was a 'greenfield' proposal. There are some fine people involved with this already, and had that group been put together at a community level I am sure it would have been successful. --

586:

has always done: push the very edges of any restrictions he is under, and by the time anyone goes "Well hey now, wait a minute," he is so far off the reservation that dealing with it becomes an exercise in bizarre drama. Fool me once, your fault. Fool me a hundred times, and it just might be the fault of a community process that lets anyone spout off about anything without having any idea what's actually going on. In case I'm not being clear enough: the unblock was blindingly misguided and will only serve to enable Betacommand the next time he pushes at his restrictions. Which he's already doing, of course... bursts of identical edits, four at once, every 12-20 minutes? Come on. →

8790:

draft of which hasn't been forgotten, and which was developed with community input) and that the committee should have the flexibility (within the limits of that policy) to change their working practices to suit different committees year-by-year (as the composition changes due to elections). If each of those sort of changes was micromanaged by the community (or the small subset of the community who take an interest in this sort of thing), then there would be a danger of placing future committees in a strait-jacket as regards changes to their working practices. Some of these working practices were unwritten, and it has helped to formalise them on the "procedures" page.

5140:

to his proposals. The preponderance of such evidence led to several outcomes that impeded the normal functioning of the processes mentioned above. Such that: a)this lesser material may very well have influenced every decision to move forward in the sanction processes, b) that such material may have unduly influenced the parties into believing that their case was stronger then it actually was, and in doing so cemented the unwillingness to compromise at any level. c) that the magnitude of this material required most of my time and emotional energy to respond too, and diminished the quality and fullness of my response. Time pressure was always an issue.

6292:

what was said in those e-mails, I have supported the motion currently being voted on. I've said there that I am willing to discuss what was said in those e-mails if all parties agree to disclose that. Geogre still has the opportunity to defend his conduct in public. That is why the motion was voted publicly - precisely to give him the chance to say something in addition to what he has already said by e-mail. I will go further - I am prepared to discuss every single edit mentioned in that motion, and the context of those edits, but that can only happen if Geogre defends himself. As I said, the onus is on him to rebut the edits presented.

4562:"The Advisory Council acts as an advisory body to the Arbitration Committee and to the community; considers various issues facing the project and develops ideas, proposals, and recommendations for improving it; and serves as a forum for the sharing of best practices among the different areas within the project, The group can be regarded as a high-level think-tank, coming up with ideas that either the Committee or the community as a whole might choose to pursue. The Advisory Council also advises the Committee directly, providing it with feedback and ideas from a cross-section of the community that's not otherwise involved in its work." 10348:

of the trouble here is coming from a single editor who is acting out, with no supporters or defenders other than themselves, and it would be helpful to actually do something about it rather than waste everyone's time trying to warn all sides. Arbcom is the last stop for resolving behavioral matters and, like it or not, the parties to an Arbcom case have room to comment and make their case there as it involves them. Some comments are clearly more germane and actionable than others. Objections to the Nazi label are relevant. Nevertheless I have removed my comment from that forum. If not me, plenty of others share my disquiet.

4126:

bless the creation of such a forum? At this point, I'm hoping that the council can either become the open forum that Dragons flight desires, or be replaced by such a forum. However, a forum that behaves with a procedure that is radically differently from the status quo does not take shape in a vacuum. It needs a dedicated group of people willing to work on implementing it. I think that was the intent of the ArbCom, and that was the reason I and others said we would participate. If someone can explain to me some other, more effective way to create the forum that is needed, I'll redirect my efforts in that direction. --

2043:

or at least, its spirit, has declined gradually and I think that the ACPD is a good idea. I also think that being a more content-minded editor, including my tenure on the project, editing philosophy, and editing areas would add variety to the body. Also, I have, over the past, introduced and proposed several ideas for the betterment of the community, for example, introducing a clause to the harassment policy to combat the then-overwhelming misuse of the policy. While I am aware that my history of small-scale disruption may be a stumbling block to my chances, if anyone would consider inviting me, I'd gladly accept.

10784:

creates a protective shell around the editor in question. Given how this project ought to function there is absolutely nothing fair about that, and I would never suggest otherwise. You have every right to object to whatever you want to object to, of course, as you are just as much as (or perhaps more so) of a valued Wikipedian as I am. I was just advising you, very much in the "friendly advice" mode, to step back and not object, as I felt it would be better for your cause, so to speak. I stand by that and I guess reiterate it, for what it's worth, but I'm now disengaging here as I've said my piece. --

2186:

impose our wishes on an unwilling community. We are moving, instead, towards a vision of a community empowered to make its own decisions. The path is slow, to be sure, but I am confident we will eventually reach a point where the future of the project is determined by the community, not imposed from above; where discussion of policy and governance is held openly and transparently, not on secret mailing lists by unelected cabals; and where an effective and vibrant model of governance allows us to improve the project to cope with its growth, rather than tying us to outdated and stagnant methodologies.

10375:. CoM is not sanctioned for bringing a different perspective, CoM is sanctioned for expressing that perspective in such a way as to denigrate others and cast aspersions. That, incidentally, applies to all sides of this issue. This project's behavioural standard is that one treats other editors with dignity and respect, whether or not one agrees with others. Now, this should be taken as a final warning to all of you—the discussion happening here in this thread belongs somewhere else, if it belongs onwiki at all. Either take it to the right place, or don't take it, but it will not continue here. 2473:

purpose of the group is to actually advise ArbCom, then it should not be a problem for it to be made of solely of non-Arbitrators. The presence of the coordinating arbitrator on the group will inevitably lead to feelings (justified or not) that this new body is little more than a way for the committee to extend its reach and authority. I'm sure you don't think of it that way and that in reality that was not at all your intention, but given the basic facts of how this came about I would hope you would agree that it's hard to fault other editors for coming to that conclusion. --

1982:

elected the chairperson because he is so well respected and most knowledgeable about process. But he was also a member of the directors' committee to which the community committee reported. But when the committee started providing recommendations he didn't like, he independently set up a second committee in secret and used his influence on the directors' committee to have the first committee abolished and his selected committee established. Keep the 2 committees independent of one another. Have a completely neutral party as chair or facilitator (and clerk, in this case).

10031:. I commented in that AE request on the conduct of two other editors (Ohconfucious, who later struck what he had written above, and Greg L). Of the 16 editors who recently had their restrictions relaxed, 8 had MOS topic bans relaxed. Of those eight, two are still serving bans or are blocked (Lightmouse, Locke Cole, Kendrick7), one has had the ban re-imposed (Pmanderson), and I've mentioned (at the AE request) the post-ban relaxation conduct of another two (Ohconfucious and Greg L). The other two are Tony1 (who has been saying exactly the right things with edits like 1439:"The representation of topics in content contributions was not, admittedly, considered" This is the reason why myself and many actual, active content editors (which only a handful on that list can honestly claim as a title) cannot respect the committee's proposal nor would want the council "advising" us in any manner. I, for one, would not want a group made up of Knowledge Review members and those who are in isolated niches with very little experience with content as a whole or much of it in general to pontificate about anything as if they know what is best for us. 10636:

nazism to grow. Those who stand with censors, intimidators and harassers on Knowledge are very much like the appeasers that stood silent and avoided confrontation with the nazis. The analogy is right on target and I stand by it 100%. The hateful intolerance, the intimidation, the harassment is in no way comparable because it's online, but it's is very much similar in its insidious nature and its desired results. Silence = death. Go ahead and ban me, but I'm not going to shut up about the intolerance, censorship and the hate that this thuggery is fostering.

2392:, and those questions be asked of those who have accepted invitations, and also anyone else who would like to join such a group (they, after all, not ArbCom, will decide what they do and how they do it). In other words, at some point fairly soon, the group should disengage from this announcement, and from ArbCom, and sink or swim on its own merits. This shouldn't happen immediately, as more discussion is needed here (not everyone will have seen this discussion yet, for one), but that is how I think the discussion should fork, when the timing is right. 4070:

been validated by the community reaction thus far. Lastly, I worry that the failings of the current process, the lack of any meaningful authority, and the appearance of illegitimacy will make this into yet another discussion forum that expends large amounts of time and accomplishes little. I don't know if it would have made any difference, but unfortunately I did not really share my concerns with ArbCom before this was presented. My emails focused simply on asking questions, and I did not appreciate that their announcement was so imminent.

1406:(ec) What is the purpose of having two members of ArbCom on the committee devised to advise ArbCom? Also, from a personal perspective, I am somewhat concerned that out of 18 members (so far), six were indirectly (one) or directly (five members) involved in instigating the recent arbitration against me. Can you reassure me that this is a coincidence? Also, why are certain areas of Knowledge overrepresented e.g. LGBT contributors, while others (science, religion) are under represented? What was the process in selecting these members? Regards, — 10520: 1962:

previously said, copy editing or reverting vandalism at Lady Gaga does not qualify one to be a member of or represent WP:LGBT), or frequent contributors to the talk pages of WP:LGBT. I suppose the inclination to be suspicious is human nature, as I was when I was asked to be a part of this. Kirill can attest that my response was nothing more than sluggish and ambivalent if not downright cynical. The claims, suspicions, bringing it up...all of it is confusing...like asserting "activist judges" are behind the change of public policy.

9896:); namely, MOSNUM simply stays locked and an admin gatekeeper—or pair of gatekeepers) just watches over to see if there is conflict-free changes or additions to be made. I was astonished how the past two lock-downs suddenly made all parties settle down and behave themselves. “Consensus by parties of two” and “consensus by who can make forty edits a day” is not a consensus and just makes MOSNUM unstable. Unfortunately, it seems that if there is no teacher in the room, we kindergardeners can get out of hand. 1425:

about your recent case is indeed a coincidence. The representation of topics in content contributions was not, admittedly, considered, but that would be extremely difficult to do. To get a proper representation of subject topics, you would need a large body of 100 people or more. On content, my view is that this advisory council would not consider specific matters of content (that would be, as always, down to editors discussing on talk pages and at article reviews), but more general, project-wide concerns.

1333:

ArbCom opinions they don't like by rallying a few like-minded Committee members to prove the prevailing ArbCom opinion is not what the community wants. Likewise, they can block emerging Committee recommendations they don't like by fustrating the Committee talks (or divert the agenda, or a number of other political tactics). Likewise, they can justify their own opinions by influencing Committee agenda/talks. The mere appearance of this kind of conflict or use of insider influence is bad for legitimacy. --

4427:

often face, warnings, notices, and accusations. We weather all the random trouble of Knowledge. Admins take personal attacks as an occupational hazard, and learn to be patient, ignore, empathize, and forgive. If an Arbcom member is unjustly accused of shenanigans, can't they just ignore it or say sorry but I disagree? And if the accusation is legitimate, can't they just say yes, you're right, and I'll do better next time? I'm left with this question: can Arbcom dish it but not take it?

4345:

adding new statements. The ACPD can be tweaked on the the projects page either now or later as the Council sees fit. The Council was launched by ArbCom but it is its own body. We intended to stop our direct involvement in forming it after the second round of invitations (the self noms) ended. We were going to make some suggestions for the agenda, but then let them go on as they wish. I think that we should stick with the original plan. Keep the current members and let them start working.

9701:

MOS that are wiki-specific would remain at guideline level since there isn't really any replacement for them. This would cut down on many of the internal battles that have been happening at MOS, and best of all this change would facilitate expert participation in technical/academic subjects that have their own style conventions. After all, most of us care much more whether Ph.D. editors are writing articles than how they format centuries. Let's eliminate that hurdle to participation. :)

35: 5773:). In essence, we have assumed good faith and given Melonite the benefit of the doubt on this one occasion, with the observation that extraordinary coincidences in the future will not have a similar outcome. The editor has also been asked to reflect on aspects of his editing style and explore ways of finding consensus on talk pages. Any future problems in this later area can be dealt with through the normal community channels and don't really need ArbCom to be involved. 8798:

talk page (look through the archives for examples of such discussions). Previously, decisions were archived in many different venues, and it was difficult to keep track of them all. The noticeboard proved very handy when I compiled a report on what had been done in the first half of this year. And for those like WJBscribe who have been away, the following three links to things I've mentioned above would be a good starting point if you want to comment or give feedback:

4531:

is not an RfC on the ArbCom. I think it is a serious error to take the opposition to ACPD registered at the RfC as a "vote of no confidence" of ArbCom. I do not like the parliamentary metaphor, but if we are going to use it, let me point out that "loyal opposition" plays an important role. The point is simple: people can disagree with decisions made by ArbCom, without feeling that ArbCom as presently constituted should be disbanded. The essence of

1153:

any number of places on-wiki to solicit community input. Despite all intentions to the contrary, this is likely to create a new class of editors and distort governance development. (The two are intimately tied together.) The scope and purpose are also poorly defined, but that's almost a bikeshed color issue in comparison with the other concerns. If I can further clarify my position or if there are further questions, I will do my best to accomodate. --

2023:"Advisory Council on Project Development?" Doesn't that sound just a little officious? I'm not just throwing rocks here, I honestly believe that what you call a thing has a lot to do with how people treat a thing and act as part of that thing. I do however, hope that the anti-establishment rockthrowers that are on this council rememberkeep their feet firmly planted and do their best to focus on informal leadership rather than formal auhority.-- 1390:

Tony1 should e-mail or contact us if he wants to be considered. Also, remember that anyone will be able to comment on talk pages - that is how I intend to make my opinions known if an issue is discussed that I have a strong opinion on. Actually being on the group (the way I envisage it) is not crucial to contributing ideas or participating in discussions, but such a group guiding discussion should make things a bit more orderly and productive.

347:

to evade sanctions. The community rejected an appeal only three months ago. His acknowledgment of misconduct is extremely limited and insufficient, leading me to believe he does not fully understand (or is unwilling to accept) the high level of disruption that his behavior caused. I do not perceive sufficient evidence counterbalancing these concerns, which would be required for me to support lifting the ban under any conditions. --

10104:

article, to the point where he is currently on a community topic ban from the Obama article pages (but not talk pages). A number of us can see past the content disagreement and actually like Grundle2600 as an editor and enjoy interacting with him. When you offer a reasonable argument, Grundle2600 tends to listen and he realizes when he doesn't have consensus for something. Earlier though, ChildofMidnight would incite Grundle

9559:). Surely by now you can see how pointless it is for you to devolve each and every discussion you take part in? In addition, your edits simply serve to scare away the average editor who is merely seeking clarification in many instances. If you really want to abolish/diminish/downgrade the various MOSs, then please start that debate as a separate RfC and see what sort of response you get; oh, that's right, you already have: 260:

named as a party and submitted a brief narrative in the absence of time to submit evidence). I also took part in one massive noticeboard discussion where (following the discussion) I unblocked Betacommand. Technically, the appeal of the community ban wasn't related to the arbitration case, but while I still provided background information where I thought it would help, I felt I was too involved to vote and thus abstained.

6525:←In regards to the watchlist notices, in the thread linked to at the top of this one, a member of the community had asked that the committee not use them. After reading it over again, it looks more like what they were asking was the ArbCom asked first next time and got consensus to add a notice to the watchlist announcements. I personally feel they were very helpful last time, and would support them being used again. 2190:

project, and asked them to come up with some ideas for improving it. If this method of generating proposals turns out to be unproductive, we can change it; if the community develops something better, we can obsolete it; but I don't think our presumption is so great, or our creation of the group so inadvisable, that it should be reflexively opposed rather than being given a chance to prove its value to the project.

5014:. My hope was that arbitrators would consider additions to the proposals as evidence to take under consideration before making their final judgments. These additions were done after the evidence section was closed, and some of the additions could well have been done during voting. I had wondered if all of arbitrators had considered all of this new information before making their decisions and voting for closure.-- 4982:

be much more productive and relaxed now. I would like to extend my thanks to everyone involved in this arbcom, most importantly the staff who have given their freetime to investigate and resolve this issue but also everyone who submited evidence to the arbcom. My hope now is that scuro and other editors will be able to work much more productively and calmly and without any serious disruption issue. Thanks. :)--

6277:" so if we are going to have the judges publicly airing their opinions on guilt, and those of their co-judges, before consultation and deliberation has even begun, I don't think I shall be bothered to be involved and comment further. It would be rather like introducing new evidence after the trapdoor has been sprung (or chair plugged in or whatever it is that's done in the USA) - In short, a waste of time. 2866:

though obviously Kirill should do whatever he wants to. A lot of the people objecting here and in the RfC, including myself, like the basic idea but not the manner in which the group was constituted. To me that just means we should just discuss it further—there are no bad guys or gals here, just some honest (and apparently significant) disagreements which we should be able to hash out respectfully. --

658:

I do wonder why some powerful people in Knowledge spend so much effort trying to bring Betacommand back. This is the person who has probably driven away more content contributors from Knowledge than anyone else. There are plenty of people more deserving of a review of their cases. I cannot avoid the (bad faith) impression that they feel indebted to Betatacommand for doing their dirty work for them. --

5060:, and while your proposal was not integrated, much of the final decision is aimed at fixing some of the problems that were disrupting the consensus building process. Your second proposal is unacceptable as you are insinuating that others were dishonest and have gamed the system, but you did not prove this in the /Evidence. Also, you significantly changed this proposal after people had supported it. 4001:

of our users. It was more of a problem than anything ArbCom has had to deal with for a long time. Did I run away? No. Did I whine about it? No. Was I emotionally affected? Sure, because it was someone that I got along with and was friends with for quite a while. So really, don't act like you know me when you fail to show the least bit of knowledge about what I've gone through here or elsewhere.

2928: 3721:

Already the apology and offer to resign because of what has happened demonstrates that. There is no question in my mind that Kirill has been anything other than an excellent Arbitrator. I also agree that if (after reflection I hope) he does not wish to return to Arbcom for whatever reason, then it is his decision, and the community should be grateful for all the good work he has done to date.

4591:

limbo between the time of the announcement and people writing back to us. If you have any suggestions for additions to improve the composition of the group, please suggest people you would like to see added. I would like (and want) to say a lot more on this, but most of my time (and those of others as well) has been occupied with helping to keep other things running as normal (see my post

1578:, self-selecting elite. And as Jimbo often points out, this place is not a democracy, he can put in place whatever structures and processes he likes. He is under no obligation to consult anyone. I have to say that, personally, I find moves like this alienating; but if the consensus is that it's okay to ignore consensus in this particular instance, I'm happy to abide by the consensus :)-- 4491:

it really is a good idea, in which case I work with the consensus and keep on quietly promoting my idea. I've found that the good ones take 6-24 months until someone else has the same good idea, in which case I don't get the credit but the idea lives - which was my purpose anyway. Quitting is for quitters - there's always a way to ride a horse, unless you just don't like riding horses.

10844:

directing your remark to "all editors," and your enjoinder might have been better positioned on the appropriate user talk page, since most of us do not need to be reminded that Nazi analogies are definitively not on. I appreciate your comment and understand you are trying to be diplomatic which is admirable, but I'm afraid the generality of your remark rather rubs me the wrong way. --

6908:.) Geogre disclosed at least several times that he operated both accounts. This was not widely known, but one user was able to find the disclosures in about 5 minutes of looking. What great harm was caused by Geogre? Was he malicious or merely careless? Was he using his second account to harass people? It seems that the worst he did was have a lame edit war over an image of the 1347:

needed to give it a kick-start, and arbcom seemed like a good organ to give it the intiial shove, as it were. I did propose that the committee itself figure whether it wanted 0,1, 2 or whatever number of arbs on it, but I think the feeling was to develop it and have a couple of arbs as liaison-type people anyway. We can also offer input on ease or difficulty of governance thus far.

6321:

a defence was given. He had a chance to explain things in private. The chance is now being offered to put his side of things in public. I, for one, want to hear what he has to say, either at the motion, or at a later appeal if the motion passes (based on the private correspondence) before he has responded in public, or at any later request that may be filed resulting from this.

122:. There is still a small discussion on ethnic distinctions ongoing that was added last minute, but that can work its way through later, and the bulk of the dispute is hopefully resolved by the consensus reached. We're ready to answer enquiries, and suggest implementation of the consensus take place fairly soon. Best wishes, and apologies if this is the wrong place! 8782:). A wide-ranging discussion on what should be done off-wiki and what should be done on-wiki as regards arbitration business is long overdue. WJBscribe, if you would like to start such a discussion, that would be good (this, and much of what follows, is my personal opinion only). Timing it for after the recess, when more arbitrators are here, would probably be best. 1193:

harm any neutrality, especially in some of our more delicate subjects. I have already submitted most of this information to an Arbitrator. But the above list is very skewed and not in the best direction. The fact that some of these people are part of Knowledge Review and lack significant edit contributions to any project or content area is downright troubling.

2666:. There are many here who are suprised that you are still able to edit so your so your current take on Kirill behoves you not. Regardless of the writes or wrongs of the new council, I don't think anyone doubts that Kirill's motives were honourable, and I say that as someone who has frequently disagreed with him. So please let us have no more from you on this. 5126:

resort", and only "emergency" type cases are to be heard where no attempt at resolution has been made. Yet there was no emergency. This case has been characterized as "straightforward" by an arbitrator and the only sanction given was for edit warring. Was this not an abuse of process, especially when one also considers it in light of the issues raised below?

4567:

is this not quite a broad scope for ArbCom to designate to a committee it creates? (I was beginning to feel almost ok about the committee, given the statements of many of its members that they recognize the need to be accountable to the community, but I worry again seeing this type of mandate. Even if the committee has no actual power, it is a

9666:

no other reason than that they are more stable and less prone to internal squabbling. It's really outside ArbCom's remit to implement this solution (which could be spelled out in full in about three paragraphs, with provisions for wiki-specific formatting). So shall we start an RfC to deprecate the darned thing? Let's commit ourselves to

4599:. This is complicated by the fact that many people will probably want to comment more on what has happened in the last two weeks, rather than the period January to June 2009, but it is important to give people the opportunity to comment on the performance over the first six months as well. I hope to have that initial summary ready shortly. 6225:(e/c) Geogre has offered an explanation privately to the committee, but he is of course welcome to restate it publicly if he wishes. That the explanation provided could justify the use of an undisclosed alternate account is debatable (though some arbitrators — including myself — found it unconvincing), but no explanation can justify 9343:

which Knowledge should be forced to carry out this self-appointed Committee's opinions, MOSNUM will not be stable until they are banned, even if nobody opposes them. Judging from the level of improvement to MOS attained here and in the date-delinking controversy, I do not expect this turbulence to result in much improvement either.

8373:; I've since listed them both, and have just now updated the page to reflect these new results (unless that should wait until everyone is identified and flagged, or the dust is otherwise settled). Beyond that, congratulations to all of our new and improved functionaries -- I'll look forward to working with you all. – 9101:

them, I trust that this will be the case. If any of these editors misuse the second chance that has been given to them and lapse into chronic incivility or offensive behavior, I am going to be very disappointed and angry. Please feel free to draw this comment to the attention of anyone whom reading it may benefit.

2970:/me resists urge to make a comment truly in poor taste to demonstrate... ;-) - I think the comment is in good humour, and believe it would be received as such by those to whom it refers. Suggest hand sitting as a good tactic to prevent the infinity loop of commenting on comments about comments - and lighten up :-) 2463:

the announcement about it, and then argues fairly passionately in its favor here on this page, there are going to be people who see possible impropriety there. Surely you must have foreseen that, given the obvious distaste with which much of the community views new bureaucracy and elite groupings of editors.

10110:

at least half a dozen others as well, both before and after the initial case decision, some of whom were in active edit wars on the Obama pages. Here's the latest on ChildofMidnight's talk page where he calls the other parties to the case (and by extension, Arbcom) "vandals" and compares us to the Nazis.

10897:

The Nazi accusations are still up - will someone else file a request for enforcement or should I do the honors? I do not understand why Arbcom cannot police its own noticeboard, but perhaps a willing admin can cut through the procedure in order to do away with the offensive material. If not, within

10596:

I understand, but he did not directly call you, Wikidemon, a Nazi, even if it was heavily implied. And this really has nothing to do with Obama stuff, oddly, but rather relates solely to C of M's unbelievably poor judgment when it comes to historical analogies. Trust me, no one in their right mind is

10147:

You are implicitly entitled to respond to me here as a party to the case, whereas doing so elsewhere would likely violate the restriction - although you're pushing your luck with the over-the-top accusations. A query: am I one of the "censors", "vandals", etc., to whom you are referring in your talk

10109:

with exhortations that Grundle's proposals were good ones, that Grundle was the victim of "POV-pushing censors" and "vandals" who patrolled the articles, and that instead of backing down Grundle2600 should join ChildofMidnight's fight to keep the "integrity of Knowledge". ChildofMidnight has incited

10058:

that these editors cannot conduct themselves in a collegial manner and in accordance with the Arbitration Committee's, and the community's, expectations as to how Wikipedians should treat one another—particularly after having either been in, or near to, a protracted arbitration case. I will look with

9665:

There is a very simple solution to this which is already functional at 99% of Knowledge's articles: treat the MOS as an essay rather than a guideline and follow any reliably published paper and ink style guide you want. Hard copy style guides are inherently superior to wiki-based style guides--if for

9542:

anything on my own). I was simply attempting to inject some reality into the discussion. It is truly bizarre to meet someone whom when demonstrated that between 2.5 and 5 times the people prefer to use one format over another, persists in the minority view. I'm used to dealing with people/editors who

9420:

I'll continue to work on WP as I always do. I will also disengage from conversation with you because I don't feel you capable of communicating without insulting people. I will be filing a request for enforcement later this evening to have you removed from the MoS pages again, and will inform you when

9139:

This is precisely the sort of attack of which Carcharoth complained at the amendment discussion. I have now answered the questions asked of me during the last few months, and responded to the current proposals on WT:MOS. I am now going to offer Noetica my support - and unless my opinion is asked, or

8474:

Interesting theory; however, the appointments are the appointments, and the "pending" part refers to the identification process completion and the turning on of the permissions. Theoretically, an appointment can be withdrawn after the fact should the appointee fail to complete the process; however, I

8298:

for more on this, including my thoughts that repeated appeals should go through a preliminary phase where the appellant states why an appeal should be heard (e.g. stating what was incorrect about the initial case, or what has changed since the previous appeal), and only then, if that phase is passed,

8289:

WJBscribe, it might help you to understand where I stand if you realise that it was me that filed the motions that were voted on, and it was me that at least twice (at the request) asked Everyking to state on-wiki his objections to the motions, and he steadfastly refused to do so despite advice to do

8210:

Does it matter that he has filed 10 appeals (which I don't think is accurate - some of those were filed by others)? Some of those appeals (though in short succession) have been (to some extent) successful. Indeed, this appeal, which was met by fairly hostile intially comments from Arbs that it should

7027:

Actually, I think "risks being" is accurate. There are lots of editors, admins included, who have undisclosed alternate accounts. Many of them cross lines, whether intentionally or unintentionally. It is often only by chance that these are identified. Therefore it is a risk, but not an absolute, that

6320:

Well, if he doesn't read this, could you be sure to point out what I said? I am serious about discussing this in public with him. If you (and he) want to defend his conduct, you need to actually be prepared to talk about things in detail and not just refuse to say anything, or claim that no chance at

5623:

using a work computer, and thus, whether or not the checkusers will be looking for anymore registrations from Melonite's work IP address? In addition, has Melonite disclosed their home IP to checkusers, to ensure no sockpuppetry is possible from different locations at different times? It is of course

5153:

Parties who insisted on the highest quality of evidence on the article on demand, provided a significant amount of low quality and bogus evidence during these sanction processes, and not uncommonly avoided responding to what was stated. This lesser material was used to further their only stated goal,

5071:

when there are a lot of editors involved in the problem, and more editors are likely to join the fray after the case closes, as it gives administrators quite a bit of control over how the article will be managed in order to restore and maintain sanity. In this case, the number of editors involved is

4662:

I'm sorry, but I find this "the council has no power" argument rather bizarre. It may not have any formal power, but I'm sure we are all well aware that this is not the only kind of power on Knowledge or anywhere else in the world. It's a bit absurd to suggest that a group of (largely) admins brought

4394:

A fair number of people in that RFC who are expressing opposition to Arb Comm have also said that they were disappointed by Kirill' and/or Rlevse's resignations, so I don't think it's fair to conclude that community rejection of this initiative is the same as a vote of non-confidence in Arb Comm. If

4077:

Maybe in the future I would accept an invitation to join such a group (if it appeared to have the community's backing), but it will be at least several months before I am likely to reconsider on this group. As always, I am happy to informally offer my advice and input to ArbCom, ACPD, or anyone else

4000:

Oh, and Rlevse - I was involved in fourth months of hell with a decision that tried to wreck a WMF project that I devoted a lot of time with. I was stuck between the Foundation and a problematic user with a lot of technology at his service. We had a huge destruction of content and a major debalancing

2885:

Have you chaps (bigtime, dragon) considered that it's the emergence of a consensus that the council was poorly conceived, or the launch 'botched' which makes resignation the remaining option. You see, we've built a pretty system here which says 'consensus must be right', which means when you honestly

2272:

I'm not sure Giano could really be considered a 'friend' of Arbcom ;) And the major difference I see between Damian's group and this is that Damian's group was explicitly aimed at stacking votes, was open to a very select few (Arbcom has indicated that potential membership in this is open to anyone),

2185:

Speaking more generally, I would hope that it is apparent from the Committee's actions in recent months—the elections of functionaries, the RFCs, the changes to arbitration policy to base it on community ratification—that we have no interest in trying to decide the future of the project ourselves and

2158:

Wikipedian - does that not include the members of ArbCom? I think the real question should be "Is ArbCom prohibited from setting up this group for some reason?". It states on the page describing the group that "anything it might recommend will need to achieve consensus normally, as any other proposal

2120:

In fact one could level the charge that creation of this Council creates a new level of "inner circle" that may short-circuit or distort the results of existing community mechanisms such as policy RfCs. The over-representation of admins and Arbs in the proposed membership has already aroused comment.

2042:

I'm actually surprised that no-one appears to have put themselves forward as registering their interest. Maybe it's the desire to not appear snobbish or cocksure by putting themselves forward. Or maybe my eyes are tired from reading. As an editor of over four years, I have noticed that the community,

1604:

I don't really see any fundamental change here, though. You'd be correct if this were an actual governance body; but, as I hope we've made clear—and we did try to make it very explicit—the body is purely an advisory one, and has no authority beyond discussing and making proposals (which is something

1523:

I'd certainly have voted for many of the people in the list to be given a say in the way the project is governed, and in the way it moves forward. But trampling on community consensus and presenting the whole thing as a fait accompli like this is not, imo, the way to do it. This is fundamental change

1192:

I'm sorry, but I and many others cannot accept the term "broad" being associated with the list that has already accepted. There are many, many wikiprojects that are ignored and many that are over represented. There is also a biased among many of the editors that have been selected that would severely

1060:

To address some of Tznkai's other points. Those invited have been asked about alternative names for the group, and everyone reading this is more than welcome to come up with a better name, though hopefully not too much time will be spent on that. The name should flow from the objective and purpose of

927:

ArbCom will probably suggest some items in the next week or so—we don't have anything resembling a coherent list at the moment—but some of them are likely to be low-priority and of limited interest. As a practical matter, I think the easiest way to get something like an agenda going might be to have

727:

The other aspect of the group, of course, is slightly more experimental; we think that pulling together a pretty diverse set of experienced, insightful editors and asking them to discuss issues relevant to the project is likely to produce something useful (regardless of whether the issues to consider

423:

edit, which has the comment "add new twinkle config var". He apparently is using Twinkle, a well-known edit automation tool -- & has already broken one of the four limits on his behavior. If he truly wants to redeem himself in our eyes -- & not his own myopic ones -- then he can wikignome the

10768:

I am already restrained, and mostly stepping away. I'll leave it to others to see this for what it is, but please, don't think you're better than me in responding to offense. You, half of Arbcom, and Jimbo (Jimbo will read this shortly, and I can provide diffs of the accusations against Jimbo) are

10560:

It's being dealt with (somewhat, it's still unfolding), but honestly Wikidemon you should not worry about it. Just move far away from this situation right now. I understand and share your indignation, but there are plenty of eyes on this and you do not want to fall afoul of your interaction ban with

9793:

to see how things worked. All MZMcBride and MASEM had to do was watch over the discussions to ascertain whether what was being proposed was uncontroversial, minor, or was significant but enjoyed a wide consensus. Then they simply copied some suggested verbiage and pasted it into place denoted by the

9695:

The basic concept is this: open an RfC on the guideline status of the MoS and propose an alternate solution. The bulk of Knowledge's internal MOS would be demoted from guideline to essay. For FAC and the few other places where such things count this would place the internal MOS on equal footing with

7218:

I really don't want to be a jerk here, but Geogre's user page still indicates that he is an administrator. I would say something on his talkpage but I have been savagely bitten by him before and have no interest in sticking my face in a blender. Could someone have a word, please? Non-admins (usually

5957:

is an interesting technicality, but given that the current motion presumes they can impose conduct restrictions on an editor in the absence of a case, I suppose they could (procedurally) also consider a desysopping by the same means, always provided that the administrator at issue has an opportunity

5923:

Given the lack of emergency, ArbCom would not normally consider a desysop by summary motion. There was discussion within the committee for the alternative of opening a full case in order to examine the situation with a wider view and consider alternate or supplemental remedies. However, how ArbCom

5111:

i)Throughout the topic ban and arbitration, Literaturegeek was uncivil to a degree that overshadowed both Doc James, and my documented examples of being uncivil. These instances would be impossible to miss because her comments are part of the record. Anyone involved with this case would have to know

4694:

This is not simply a matter of semantics, it goes to the heart of the disagreement. Roger and others are claiming the group will have no authority, formal or otherwise presumably, and as such many of the views of those in opposition must look rather odd to them (i.e., why would people complain about

4566:

Could this statement be clarified? How does this committee provide feedback and ideas from a cross-section of the community, given that the group is rather narrowly drawn and has no validation by the community? Are we to take this on faith, as there is no explanation of who these persons are? Also,

4530:

The RfC is very specifically about the ACPD. Obviously it implies that many members of the community think ArbCom - and Jimbo - made an error in judgement (but the RfC is far from over and it is too early to draw conclusions from its results, people are still weighing in). The fact remains that it

4245:

Samuel Wantman has added a further well thought-out statement to this thread that can't be reduced to a two line message. In my view, statements that "Knowledge is broken" or that "the community is dysfunctional" may have merit in certain areas (BLP and FICT spring to mind, as do some recent massive

4097:

Thank you for reading my thoughts on this issue. I'll be crossing my fingers and hoping that this entire mess eventually leads to some legitimate and constructive improvements in the direction of Knowledge's growth, but I feel there are better uses for my time and energy at this point (not least of

4065:

The announcement mentions that several people were invited to join but had not yet responded to the invitation by the time this announcement was posted. I was one of them. The invitation that I received last Monday morning was rather vague. Over the course of the next few days I exchanged several

3985:

I would serve as an Arb. Tell Jimbo to appoint me. Would I "fix" things? No. I believe that the constant meddling, creating ideas and abandoning them as soon as there is a little opposition, and pandering to attack sites are the most serious problems. There is an easy way to fix that - don't abandon

3814:

Really, Rlevse? Because it is rather obvious. Kirill screwed up. Instead of allowing the community to settle it, he dropped out. This happens all the time with admin who resigned and take wikibreaks instead of letting the community decide their fate. It is a shameful act and completely disrespectful

3690:

Kirill, I say the following without even having to double check your recent edits... you are definitely a good force on the ArbCom. You made a mistake. Maybe the mistake itself was a big deal, but the fact you made a mistake isn't a big deal at all. I made a few, with some specifically related to my

3085:

In my take on this, Mattisse has been hurling emotional napalm in her/his latest "someone is out to get me campaign", and now Kirill has caught the flack of that, with Mattisse apparently thinking this advisory group is some cabal to "get" him. I stand by my statement that Mattisse, who consistently

3021:

One more voice ought not to be necessary, but I'll add it anyway. Kirill, I hope you'll reconsider. When volunteer work is going well, it's incredibly rewarding; when it's going poorly, it's far more annoying than when you're being paid to take it. I can understand your frustration, but please don't

3001:

I hope that Kirill will reconsider. While the concept and creation of ACPD may or may not be flawed, the contributions of Kirill to the ArbCom are evident and valued. I know how frustrating it can be to work hard on something and then get boos instead of applause. The concept may be fixable and even

2865:

Piling on to the general consensus here. I don't think this was conceived of or rolled out particularly well at all and have said so, but I can't imagine that that's Kirill's fault solely or even perhaps primarily, and in any case it's far, far away from being cause for any resignations from anyone,

2849:

Bah. Totally unnecessary. You botched the launch of this thing, that's a given, but we don't need or want hard working people to quit everytime they make a well-intentioned mistake. There is a heap of irony that trying to create the ACPD is itself a testament to the difficulties inherent in doing

1789:

This is a strange coincidence, I had considered the creation of an advisory committee/council for a few weeks, precisely to provide advises on some broad issues affecting the community, and allow the development of consensus in those areas. But I had come up with so many reasons not to do it, that I

1467:

Kirill, please take a moment and look at my user page and see how it is not like the others. Also note that I don't put my name on projects, join various groups, or anything like that. I work in many, many fields and I have probably over 20 different WikiProjects attached to the various pages that I

1424:

In my view, the arbitrators are like liaison members, and also contribute their experience of Knowledge and of arbitration. The council (not committee) is intended to advise the community, not just ArbCom. The proposal has nothing to do with any current or past arbitration cases, so your observation

1389:

Giano, the one thing that is likely to cause a proposal like this to founder is arguing over who should be on it. After the body has been set up, there will be ample opportunity for the members to co-opt other people to join them or advise them, but at the moment, we are asking for self-nominations.

1215:

My concerns were similar to those of Risker and Vassyana and bainer (in particular that it would have been better for a proposal such as this to be worked up from the ground up), but I was also aware that if launched right and given an opportunity to show what it could do, such a body of experienced

1152:

This is a matter of broad project governance, which ArbCom shouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. The same basic goal could be accomplished by interested, motivated, and experienced Wikipedians starting a "think tank" WikiProject. If ArbCom needs advice, we can email the functionaries list or post to

1118:

going to act as a liaison between the community and the arbitration committee. It is merely going to make recommendations on large projects, and will sink or swim based on the quality of those recommendations. The arbitration committee has selected the current participants by proposing members and

775:

As I understand it Cla68, that will be the case - individual content disputes are not for the group which will concentrate on more general governance and long term objective (that will certainly be my input). Perhaps the goals and remit of the group need top be clearly defined before it convenes for

723:

I wouldn't say that the group was really formed with reference to specific issues, actually. There have been a few vague ideas bounced around recently (e.g. having someone analyze the impact of flagged revisions if or when that actually gets trialled, coming up with an easy-to-understand summary of

657:

The problem with edit restrictions on someone like Betacommand is that whenever he breaks them his friends will make up excuses. A good wikilawyer can always find something. Also, we need to waste valuable volunteer time watching over him. Anyone who does risks being accused of baiting or harassing.

622:

Llywrch, your comments on this page are despicable and I sincerely hope you strike them. Betacommand, at one point, was an administrator on this project and has devoted a substantial amount of time and energy to it. To say he has "contributed nothing of value to Knowledge" is simply beyond the pale.

366:

Does having had a community ban conditionally lifed by the ArbCom mean that only the ArbCom may block the account in the future? In this case it says that ArbCom may restore the ban, but it doesn't exclude anyone else from making a block. Similarly, in another recent appeal there were no enforcement

10827:

All editors are directed to refrain from analogizing the conduct of other editors to "Nazis" and from making any similar type of uncivil, offensive, inflammatory references. This is a collaborative enterprise in which we participate for our enjoyment. It has no place for this type of gross personal

10347:

be removed one way or another - it's untenable that anybody on Knowledge would use their talk page to call their perceived Knowledge adversaries Nazis. There must surely be policies on this, but beyond Knowledge policy that is a basic matter of decency, for people not to call each other Nazis. All

9788:

periods where MOSNUM was locked down due to protracted bickering over IEC prefixes and date linking. And in both cases, the admins (MZMcBride and MASEM) did fabulous jobs watching over WT:MOSNUM discussions. What about those discussions? Well, with MOSNUM locked down, suddenly there was an outbreak

9487:

While this is not the forum for such specifics, I hope the above points out how out-of-touch PManderson is with the modern world (and WP's role in that world), and gives an inkling why he is constantly at odds with other editors at WP. It is worth noting that nowhere above was there a denial of the

9342:

Such Crusades may be expected to continue indefinitely (unless these good souls - on this issue, Andy, HWV258, and Goodmorningworld - are outnumbered, which is unlikely to happen; it is this sort of editor who made Carcharoth too unhappy to continue with MOS); since there is always a new point on

9305:

Thanks Andy. Probably because of the bans (which I was not aware of) I do not know these people or the history of the case, and neither am I interested. All I know is that I want a relatively stable MOSNUM. To have it constantly changing underfoot helps nobody. When it changes, as it did, more than

9082:

The amendment explicitly leaves open the potential for further amendment based on evolving circumstances; editors involved in the case would be wise to be wary of repeating past actions on new guideline topics. The amendment also reminds editors addressed by the remedy to be careful to abide by all

9042:

I am dismayed by this development. Within 24 hours of this announcement, the atmosphere at MoS and related pages has palpably changed for the worse as parties who were under restriction immediately returned to revert each other at the MoS pages and introduce aggressive rhetoric into the Talk pages.

8817:

didn't get added to the procedures page. And reading the half-year report, I see that I noted that out of "88 announcements at the arbitration noticeboard", a full 16 were announcements of "changes to internal Arbitration Committee processes". Anyone can generate that list by going back through the

8789:

Some of the arguments against this include: the inevitable minority opposition to almost any sort of change that would distract from just taking a "working practices" decision and getting on with things; and (my argument) that the community should have primary say in the arbitration policy (the new

8415:

Is it just me, or does "appoints the following editors as checkusers, pending identification to the Wikimedia Foundation" make little sense. I think it should be "subject to" rather than "pending" - pending would imply they are appointed now, but that will change once the condition is met, whilst I

8182:

for an unsuccessful appeal in this manner? Risker above refers to "ill-considered action", apparently this extends to having the temerity to officially object to a sanction. I remain of the view that successive Committees have treated Everyking very badly and that he has never really known where he

7909:

True, it was open much longer than I would have expected. But changes in voting seemed unusually active, and while the case itself fluctuated randomly, support for the motion seemed to be steadily declining from a winning margin of 3, down to just 1 when it closed. I got the impression that arb's

6854:

Fine then, come up with a counter-scenario, where the use of abusive sockpupptry would likely NOT result in summary desysopping? I can certainly come up with valid use of alternate accounts by an admin, and even can imagine cases where an admin may use an undisclosed account, but this is clearly a

6596:

The first priority is to set it up (last time we asked it took ages). The main purpose is not investigative but so the arb is on the same footing as the non-arb party. Whether or not it is archived is still under discussion: one route is having the option to delete some discussions from the archive

6578:

Silly question, is the new mailing list archived? It would pretty much defeat the purpose of a list that doesn't include the involved party if as soon as the case is over they get to see all of the private discussion about themselves. People would feel no more free to submit evidence if they knew

6365:

If someone doesn't want a sock tag on their user page, they shouldn't sock. Problem solved. The embarrassment was their own doing, not the person who placed the sock tag. Coren is correct, we usually don't desyssop by motion unless it's time critical. As for a full RFAR case, see the link by Flo if

6135:

Okay, the warring seems to have stopped now so no immediate action is required, but I've watchlisted the Utgard Loki page and will act if required to. As to LoverOfTheRussianQueen, his contributions make it appear likely that this is not this person's first account, but I see no clear indication of

6045:

Further action by the Committee is possible in several ways. The Committee had some exchange of information with Geogre that led us to take this preliminary action. With more input from the Geogre or others in the Community then the block could be reviewed or a desysop motioned added. These are two

5857:

is an administrator, it seems a bit strange to me that there is not also a motion to desysop him over what appear to be clear and persistent violations of the sockpuppet policy. I assume that a checkuser has also been run to look for additional socks? Finally, a clerk might want to take action with

5139:

iii)Throughout the: Arbitration requests for comment, Arbitration, Topic ban proposal,...many of the parties provided a significant amount of accusations or evidence that was disingenuous or bogus. Evidence of this was provided in my initial response to each party, and in Nja247's case, in response

5097:

As I understand wikipedia and consensus, the ultimate goal is to get it right. Rules, procedures, etc...are all secondary if this causes a problem to not be addressed. Hence, Arbitration heard this case even though the main criteria to file arbitration was never met. The goal of "getting it right",

4981:

I am happy with the decision and accept the outcome. I accept the advice to avoid edit warring. I have learnt more about how the enforcements are going to work and I now have a much better understanding of how they will work. I think that it is likely that the editing environment on ADHD pages will

4590:

The composition of the group is not finalised yet, if only because the original announcement invited self-nominations (of which a fair number have been received). We are still working on these and how to handle them, plus some other matters to do with invitations and nominations that were caught in

4490:

Oh yeah, re:Giano's comment: when I've had the (oh so many lifetime) slaps in the face, I first consider whether my idea was all that good in the first place. Sometimes it turns out it wasn't all that good of an idea, in which case I just try to have a better one in future. Sometimes I'm still sure

4471:

Flo, with all due respect, if it was not a power grab, then why was a page created which I am presumably not allowed to edit? Specifically the ACPD and ACPD/Forum pages (that I know of). You have taken away my "power" to edit those pages and given others the "power" to revert any edits I make there

4379:

I think we are all wondering what the ARbCom's intentions are - if the RFC has no confidence in the ArbCom, which at present it seems not to, what then - a resignation en masse? Is that what the commuity wants? What sort of person would remain on the Arbcom having received such a slap in the face?

4302:

It is a mistake to create hierarchy among users. Each persons thoughts should be valued. Why value these people's thoughts more than others? Disband the group and if you have concerns about project development, start a community discussion. Eventually such a discussion may produce an election of

4265:

The present proposed advisory council and associated RfC may well move in this direction, but we are, unfortunately, starting from the wrong place. In my view, once the RfC is digested, a fresh start is needed. Or, in the spirit of a country yokel replying to a request from a tourist for directions

3704:

As a (very) minor contributor to the project but avid reader both of articles and the governance of the project I don't know if Kirill will take any notice from an unknown Wikipedian, but there are two points which spring to mind. 1. He's a volunteer so if he wants to step down, however much we may

3384:

LessHeard - that ArbCom dealt with content topic disputes. It did not claim that Mattisse cannot personalise matters which clearly deal with her person, as the above does. A user has the right to express concern about a high percentage of any make up which appears to be an imbalance. Your statement

2623:

It does demonstrate how severely out of touc this ArbCom member is with the community's belief about what ArbCom's parameters are. How can he think that accepting a position, as an ArbCom member, to a board that "advises" ArbCom on any subject is a reasonable idea? I think he needs to acknowledge

2472:

Not incidentally, you might have saved yourself some trouble by simply not making any Arbs members of the group. I have not seen any convincing arguments as to why that is necessary (it's not like the group can't be in contact with the committee if there are not committee members on it), and if the

2282:

done these days is evidence of that. Try gaining a consensus on any policy or procedural change that isn't utterly banal (and even then...), or anything that isn't a community ban of an obviously negative contributor. It just doesn't happen. We desperately need a group to pinpoint the problems, and

1856:

for example). I'm not sure, either, that the community could, speaking theoretically, shut down ArbCom. So the question arises. Does the ArbCom explicitly allows the community to review this group and gives it explicit authority to dissolve it, and modify it ? The ArbCom can indeed ask for advises,

1631:

Well, Vassyana, Cla68 and Giano have all said they see the primary concern of this panel to be governance of the project. So we now have a panel of unelected editors whose opinions regarding the governance of the project carry more weight than the opinions of their peers. And I guess that wp:arbcom

1273:

That would certainly be a good goal to aim for. I think it's fair to say that this body is, in many ways, an experimental one; it's quite likely that it will evolve into something that's constituted differently, or operates differently, depending on how productive it is and how the community views

1173:

Significant concerns to me were the lack of clarity in purpose and scope. My "oppose" vote was registered almost two weeks ago, and the Committee consensus has proved to be different than my opinion. My personal practice is to accept the consensus and work toward implementing it. As well, since the

585:

And this is the problem with community consensus. There was no ambiguity about 'no scripts of any kind', and if anyone believes that Betacommand made a good faith mistake on that, I am the Minister of Finance for Nigeria and I need your bank account information. Betacommand is doing exactly what he

346:

I opposed the measure due to a variety of factors. I will provide some of my main concerns. The problems were quite long-running and persisted despite a large number of attempts to resolve them. Betacommand was granted numerous "last chances", including under restriction. He engaged in sockpuppetry

10927:

I could use some help notifying the parties. We should probably close down this discussion, and also mention on Jimbo's talk page, that the matter is now under discussion there. I hope we do not have to wait for a full Arbcom hearing before the Nazi comments are removed - the damage compounds as

10748:

Yikes indeed. But take a break from this Wikidemon, please, as I've already asked. I think it likely that there will soon be a community discussion about ChildofMidnight. You will do yourself an enormous amount of credit by simply stepping away if and when that happens, hard as that will be to do.

10544:

I would hope that this place is the surest, most convenient forum for dealing with this. Can't an admin just delete these, and block CoM and protect his page if he continues? Were I not prohibited from interaction i would file a simple AN/I request. But cutting through the procedural fog, can we

10128:

I don't know if these attacks and smears are violations of Wikidemon's editing restrictions, but his campaign of stalking and harassment is very damaging to the encyclopedia. Thsi is the third time he's commented to or about me in recent weeks and nothing is done about. I can hardly be expected to

9728:

Please do. I could do with the entertainment, and (upon defeat) it would allow us to be rid of PMAnderson's agenda-based MOS edits. Bring it on. It would be nice to have one other outcome riding on the RfC: namely, that PMAnderson agree to walk away forever from the MOS (and related pages and talk

9700:

and other style guides. Editors who like the internal MOS are welcome to use it, but those who are accustomed to other established conventions are welcome to use those instead. We already have a precedent for this flexibility in the way the site handles national spellings. Elements of the internal

8523:

If it is not plain then the wording can be changed. My point was to confirm that it was more likely to be a problem in that the wording reflects a regional colloquial usage rather than a non-lawyer using legalese incorrectly. Since the use of the word can change over time, additionally, the age of

8200:

Everyking has filed 10 appeals and requests for clarification in the last 2-1/2 years, some verging close to vexatious ("I am allowed to edit in the same subject areas where Phil is interested?" etc.) Regardless of the merits of the argument that he "has never really known where he stood", now he

8169:

I realise that this Committee, like others before it, is frustrated by the frequency with which Everyking asks for the sanction(s) against him to be reconsidered. Personally, I think this reflects only the extent of the injustice that Everyking feels these sanctions represent. The extent that they

6291:

Giano, if you read what I have posted at the motion, you will see that I e-mailed Geogre my concerns precisely in order to give him a chance to defend himself. He wrote back and I wrote back to him. He didn't write back after the last e-mail I sent to him - the ball is still in his court. Based on

6073:

What a lovely collection you have here to talk to FLo, had Utgard gone about calling people "cocksuckers" they would probably be giving him barnstars. as the Arbcom knows full well, there were very good and valid reasons for the creation of Utgard. What a fuss about nothing - or is there something

5768:

I suppose the thing to note here is that the block suspension is not an exoneration but a second chance. He was blocked for a month and the suspected socks remain blocked. The clearest case, HobbieIP, had only one overlapping edit and could conceivably be another user on the same IP address (which

4680:

More to the point, were it true that the group has no power (and never gets any), then there is absolutely no way it can succeed. In order to convince people to go along with their proposals, the council will need to be persuasive. If they are, by definition they have attained a degree of power in

4073:

After further reflecting on my own concerns and the reaction of the community so far, I have decided that I will not be accepting ArbCom's invitation to participate in this process at this time. I can not in good conscience join an exclusive discussion group whose method of construction I feel is

4069:

During those discussions I felt a general sense of unease that this proposal was poorly thought out, with both vaguely defined scope and process. I was also concerned that an appointed body created without consultation would appear illegitimate. I am saddened to say those concerns appear to have

3775:

He didn't admit that he made a bad decision and apologize and accept the fall out. He resigned and ran. There is a difference between the courage of saying you are wrong and trying to do your job right, and fleeing from all responsibility. Militaries use to shoot people for such desertions and not

3734:

I and a lot of people don't regret Kirill's resignation. If someone resigns over a dispute like this, then it shows that they were unfit to begin with. We don't need sychophantic pleading drawing out any of this drama. If he wants to come back, he will. If not, then he wont. However, these actions

3411:

Has this resignation been accepted? If not, I very strongly request that the ArbCom do not respond until Kirill has had an opportunity to reflect upon the comments made in response to the announcement and contemplate whether the action was premature (or indeed appropriate reflection of the will of

3343:

Your very recent ArbCom required that you do not personalise disputes. I very strongly suggest that you withdraw now, striking the above comments, and discuss with your mentors how to mitigate your last few contributions to this debate. I would ask you to consider how the remaining Arbs, even with

3269:

I never requested that anyone resign. I never requested that Kirill resign. It is a misunderstanding to think that I did. I requested that any errors in judgment, or lapses in judgment, be acknowledged. I do not know the statement about resignation is being attributed to me. I did not request any

2900:

I guess I don't look at it that way PM, at least for this case. Obviously you're right that when an editor fundamentally disagrees with a major "consensus" decision, resigning a certain role/position or leaving the project might make a lot of sense. But I think this particular contretemps is being

2462:

I absolutely believe what you say and would not have thought otherwise, but when the "coordinating arbitrator" votes in favor of a new (potentially powerful - let's be real here) advisory group invented out of whole cloth by ArbCom with no community input whatsover, accepts membership on it, makes

2428:

I'm suprised to see that Kirill Lokshin saw fit to invite himself onto the advisory council, accept his own invitation, then vote support on the proposal to create it, despite this very obvious conflict of interest. He even announced it "on behalf of the Arbitration Committee." Is this just Kirill

2407:

I was just about to post something similar this morning. The above concerns are clearly divided into two sets of questions: those of legitimacy and those of execution. If we could clearly organize the questions of legitimacy here, perhaps we could start a real dialogue and easily see just how many

1457:

group of Wikipedians can come together and work on developing ideas for improving the project. If you think that this group's suggestions won't be worth listening to—and you are perfectly entitled to think so, although I would hope that you don't regard us quite so poorly—then why not gather up a

964:

looks very interesting, and certainly most welcome :-) - I'm crossing my fingers that at least most of the group's activity takes place on this wiki - there are any number of ways of achieving this sensibly... hopefully there are enough members cautious enough of private mailing lists, and private

637:

What has he contributed of value? In the two years before he was banned, BC was a perennial thorn in the side of Knowledge. I stand by my statement above. BTW, I have been an Admin on this project longer than he was a member, & devoted at least as much energy & time to it. Only I worked at

10730:

Yikes! How much longer must I be the subject of this vitrol? I don't see how, as the most frequent target, I should be restrained in this, the final forum, from objecting anymore than Nishkid, Bigtimepeace, Wizardman, or anyone else who has been the target of this. Please note, our founder has

10362:

All of you: this is not an Arbcom case page, or the place to make Arbcom requests. This is a noticeboard, and it is not the place to continue disputes. That goes for everyone posting here. If anyone feels that one of the editors posting here has violated the terms of their sanctions, the place to

10322:

I believe it would be either "to whom these refer" (correct old-style English grammar) or "who these are referring to" (colloquial and technically incorrect in times past, but through persistence of usage, probably legitimate now inasmuch as grammar like Knowledge policy is a summary of consensus

9100:

I have gone out on a limb and stood up for the editors affected by this amendment based on my impression that most if not all of them understand the seriousness with which their prior behavior was viewed and that they need to behave in a civil and professional fashion going forward. As to most of

8797:

As for the noticeboard, one of the big advantages of this is that it is a central venue where all changes and decisions are announced, allowing people to follow a single venue and also allowing a chronological view of what arbitration business has been done, and also to encourage comments at this

8793:

Your point about asking individual arbs what their reasons for support or opposition are, has been followed in some cases - look through the talk pages archives and you will see examples of arbs being asked their reasons and them answering - though I agree that more on-wiki vote rationales at the

8509:

Well, whatever it is, it isn't plain - and that alone is a reason to change it. It may be that it is a regional variation, but I'm fairly familiar with these and this just seems wrong. I suspect it should say with "are appointed checkusers subject to identification being completed". Pending means

8229:

In some ways yes it does that he has filed 10 appeals - the remaining sanction can be viewed in a number of ways - given EK has stated he has no desire to interact with Phil, then the sanction can be construed as having no impact and hence its existence moot. Repeatedly challenging a sanction can

8145:

Since I've now got a full year to wait, could you or the other arbitrators suggest something for me to ponder in the meantime? The ArbCom must feel my behavior has a lot of room for improvement if it believes a year-long extension is warranted. So any suggestions for improvement would be welcome.

8081:

Perhaps, Everyking, if you had spoken in response to the motions that were on the table, as you were urged to do by many people, there may have been a different outcome. As it is, there is now a finite point at which this sanction will end, barring complications. You did not object to it, knowing

7645:

Like I said below, that would depend on the circumstances and the judgment of the admin who dealt with it. Some might warn, some might block, some might also protect the page. It depends. That's why we have admins - to exercise judgment in such situations and to work out the best way to deal with

7174:

It's better, but I was rather critical of 9.2 and 13 being included as amendments, and I even said as much in my statement. I think this case shows that AC needs a layman advisory committee to act as a check on AC regarding sanctions so we don't get overly harsh sanctions like what was originally

6802:

It's probably not worth bothering, for a few reasons. First, in general, if an admin is found socking, they're probably going to be subject to desysopping. Second, that was clearly the case here. Thirdly, in the rare event there are extenuating circumstances, or the socking wasn't enough to merit

4535:

is that people can disagree without delegitimizing one another. If I can disagree with an editor's edit, without wishing that person blocked, I can also disagree with an act of ArbCom, without withing its members to resign. There must be space at Knowledge for dissent. Dissent should be part of

4426:

If I may (gently) chide Arbcom here, it's rather surprising that some relatively tame disclosures and objections could cause one and perhaps two of Arbcom's 16 members to resign their positions. As a body Arbcom makes far harsher determinations about other editors. We non-administrative editors

4249:

Arbitrators have drawn attention to a widely felt need for a smaller community of experienced editors to provide an advisory role on governance issues where it is becoming increasingly difficult to gauge or establish a community-wide consensus. I am not against Arbcom taking a lead on this in the

2736:

Matisse, I'm hoping you'll take this with the best of humour - I have absolutely no axe to grind against you and I hear your concerns that some of the people on the council were involved in your recent Rfar. For the record no one has so much as breathed your name to me. Rather than this become an

2371:

Obviously there is much to discuss here, but I think it is important to consider where discussion should go from here. One thing I want to avoid is a mixing up of discussion between arbitrators and those opposing this idea, and the ideas and thoughts of those who accepted invitations. That is not

2189:

This think tank is merely another step along that path. We have not instituted a governance model by fiat, nor set up a secret group to conspire against the wishes of the community; all we have done is gathered a group of people who we believe can offer insight into some of the issues facing the

2136:

I'm concerned about this. The ArbCom is a dispute-resolution body. It's not here to decide on the future of the project. Any Wikipedian is welcome to set up such a committee, but they're not allowed to restrict its membership. I am also generally concerned about the powers that Kirill seems to be

2108:

I find it hard to work out the purpose of this Council. In fact the fundamental problem appears to be the definition of ArbCom's functions. Let's consider the obvious contrast, with national governments. These make policy, i.e. they create new laws and regulations and amend older ones. Hence they

2087:

WikiVoices will be discussing this development at its next episode on 14 July 2009. Council appointees, arbitrators, and interested community members are welcome to join the roundtable discussion. The recording will begin at 10pm UTC (6pm Eastern, 3pm Pacific) via Skype. Signup is being held at

1731:

This just seems such a major change, right out of the blue. The people involved all appear to believe that their job is to advise how the project should be governed. Do you not agree that becoming involved in governing the project is a fundamental change in role for Arbcom? And if Arbcom has now

1332:

ArbCom members on an advisory committee (Community Advisory Committee?) that reports to the ArbCom is probably not the best way of going about this, especially since ArbCom controls who is allowed to be a member and who is not. It is a lot of power for those people who are on both. They can block

1297:

for the Committee. Our remit is dispute resolution, and while the definition of that can sometimes be quite broad, it cannot possibly be stretched to encompass project governance. The body is obviously intended to have an impact on project governance, even though it is framed as being an advisory

939:

MickMacNee, if you can't post sensibly then don't post at all - go play outside. On a serious note, what is the cap on numbers to this commottee going to be - to my mind, there is sufficient already - the more involved with any committee the more difficult it becomes to reach agreement. I am also

404:

This provisional suspension is not only a waste of time but an insult to the rest of us who follow the rules & try to play nice. Beyond his clumsy (if not incompetent) handling of Fair Use images, BetaCommand contributed nothing of value to Knowledge, & I'll be stunned if he ever does. --

10412:

These harassers adn stalkers are like Nazis. They go after anyone who doesn't agree with them. Their personal attacks and incivility was well documented in the Arbitration hearing. That the committee chose to ignore it has encouraged more thuggish behavior. The censorship and harassment has only

10228:

Risker you and the Arbcom committee have encouraged the stalking, harassment and abuse to continue. I have 30,000 edits over a wide variety of articles. It's only this small group of POV pushers that have caused problems. Their behavior is totally unacceptable and it's a disgrace that Arbcom had

5417:

Six votes is a majority of the unrecused Arbs, and the vote is unanimous. Tiptoety's dog could have closed the motion. I don't think there's any doubt that this was The Wrong Thing To Do, but it would be total wikilawyering to magically render the motion invalid because the bureaucracy was not

4619:

Well, gosh. As a matter of governance and administration, individual Arbcom members, and Arbcom as a body, are welcome to consult any sources they wish for advice. They could throw chicken bones for all it's worth. Where we get into trouble is where a group vested with the power to administer

4344:

The RFC was premature and flawed in the way that it was written. It has only been open for a few days. Let's wait to see how the Community thinks after the idea settles in that it was not a "power grab". I think that the RFC needs to run for a full month at least. People are still responding and

4125:

There seems to be a bit of a Catch-22 in dealing with large systemic problems on Knowledge. I too think there needs to be an open and structured policy development forum to centralize and organize the discussion of contentious policy issues. However, how do you get a dysfunctional community to

4081:

In the mean time, I will continue to believe that various reforms are necessary. At times that may mean that I am poking around the periphery of ACPD, and at other times I will be off working in other places (such as my ongoing work with the WMF on the licensing update, or my recent proposal to

1662:

Well, how much weight the group's opinion has in general is entirely up to the community, isn't it? If people find the group's suggestion's worthwhile, then it will presumably be because those suggestions are good ones, and not because the group happened to be convened by ArbCom. (ArbCom's own

954:

I don't think the body is likely to grow significantly, at least in the near term; I think we might add another half-dozen members or so, depending on interest. As far as non-admins go, we didn't look at admin status as a factor when putting together the list of invitees; I think it's largely a

259:

I thought it would have been those who supported that people wanted to hear from? Anyway, I abstained because I was heavily involved in the Betacommand (and non-free content criteria) discussions leading up to (and following) the second arbitration case, and sort of took part in that case (I was

10635:

Excuse me Bigtimepeace, but the grotesque historical innacuracies and ignorance shown by you and others is pretty shocking. The images I put up were from 1928 and 1934. Kristallnacht took place in 1938. So there was a period of years during which appeasement and neglect encouraged the cancer of

10132:

Those who aid an abet his efforts to censor and bias our content are doing a great disservice to Knowledge. Our neutral point of view policy and other guidelines and editing policies are clear. The constant attempts to censor and go after editors that Wikidemon disagrees with is disgraceful and

10059:

dismay at any instances that come to our attention of further misconduct that may take place on these pages, and quadruply so if it is by editors as to whom I played a role in allowing to return to those pages. Please, please do not make further arbitration proceedings in this matter necessary.

7894:

There was actually an extension of the closing time for the case, but even after the extension there was no change in the outcome after 48 hours; the motion was still passing, and the case was still not accepted. It's important to close these matters out in a timely way so that the parties can

7304:

There was no rush, and this had nothing to do with any sort of ritual humiliation, so you can take your usual assumption of ulterior motives and do something else with it. As I stated, the concern is new users or those unfamiliar with history thinking he is currently an admin. Here's the thing,

7009:

Joopercoopers - the edit you refer to, made after this case closed, is accurate. The arbitration committee decide on desysop requests brought to them. They have over many years, almost always desysopped for serious socking by administrators, which was the prior wording. The ruling confirms this

5125:

ii)No true attempt at mediation, negotiation, or true consensus seeking was ever made by the filing parties prior to seeking sanctions, or during the sanction processes. They avoided every attempt made to resolve differences during the processes. Arbitration is supposed to be a process of "last

3686:

If Kirill wishes to resign, then he can. We're all volunteers. To be honest, I find the wording of the "we do not accept" statement above to be slightly off; it sounds more like you're trying to force him to stay on some kind of technicality, though I admit it's completely clear that wasn't the

3318:

No, I called you irrelevant, which I probably shouldn't have, but you beat the dead horse of the "arbs out to get you here" so hard and fast that your own knuckles split open on the dead mare's skull. As a content creator, you have tons of value, as any of us do, but any of us that start on the

1945:

Actually, there is a long history of such ideas, in various forms, going back several years. If you dig around in all the essays and failed proposals, there *are* ideas similar to this one. One of the things I want to do at some point is gather them all together so a realistic assessment of the

1491:

So, at a stroke, Arbcom's remit is extended from dispute resolution to project governance. To help it in this new role, it has appointed a group of editors to advise it. It wasn't felt worthwhile to ask the community how it feels about Arbcom becoming innvolved in governance, nor to consult the

1346:

My feeling is similar to Carch's - in an ideal world (well, in an ideal world all new proposals and improvements, actions etc. would continue to be community driven) this would have happened 'from the ground up' - and I wished it would have, but the pragmatic side of me pondered whether someone

790:

I'd also hope that this council will not concentrate on content issues. This is an issue of having people from multiple areas of Knowledge in a "think tank" and I think someone who's had experience in content disputes, whether that's an issue the council will address often, would be of benefit,

137:

Outstanding job by the referees here, a big wiki kudos to all three. This outcome does an excellent job of both applying consensus and being in line with wiki policy. Before implementing this, please wait at least 48 hours from my posting here for additional arb and community input. Unless told

10843:

Good advice, which goes without saying (or should). However there is obviously only one editor analogizing the conduct of other editors to Nazis—everyone else who commented here and on ChildofMidnight's talk page was simply decrying the behavior. There's absolutely no need to be wishy washy by

10783:

Sorry if it came off as lecturing (that statement is responding to the previous version of your comment), which it quite possibly did, as that was not my intent. It was only meant as (admittedly fervent) advice. And I very much appreciate that being an admin, or being Jimbo, or being on ArbCom

10103:

That is one of the precise problems that this clarified ban may alleviate. Grundle is an amiable good faith editor who has tried the patience of a number of others with an ongoing rapidfire series of proposals to add poorly sourced, trivial, and/or irrelevant disparaging material to the Obama

9776:

I have an alternative proposal. Too often, editors come to MOSNUM to change things in order to lend legitimacy to their particular way of doing things in articles they’re working. However, this is often done with an insufficient understanding of the ramifications. This results in edit wars and

8785:

My initial views are that the actual discussions of bans and sanctions is sometimes (often) sensitive, and there is often a need for a private space in which to be frank in discussions, normally ones where the evidence is clear, but there is disagreement on the level of sanctions. But yes, the

8449:

Did you know Brad recently used the phrase "historical excursus" and referred to "caucus" in some legal sense that escaped me. I must ask him what he meant by that. I would point out that if Brad (or other arbitrators) use legal terminology, they have a duty of care to explain them to both the

7670:

Agreed with Fayssal. What happened tonight is finished and should not be dragged up again, but if edit warring like that happens in future, please can admins or clerks act here like they would anywhere else. No need to be stricter or more lenient, just act as you would if you found people edit

7289:

satisfies you needs Roux - any other form of ritual humiliation you would like to see? Him posing naked in the snow with a feather on his head perhaps? He seems not not be editing so perhaps the aims of certain people have been acheived. This was a shabby affair and Knowledge at its worst - no

6997:

Carcharoth, can you tell me whether Geogre was acting in bad faith, or if he may have just been careless or misunderstood policy? How many times was he warned about this (if any)? It seems like bannishing him from being an admin ever again is overly harsh. (The chance of passing RFA again is

6258:

Giano, you are welcome to defend Geogre's conduct with the Utgard Loki account, but I cannot in good conscience get into a discussion with this about you or anyone until Geogre has had a chance to reply in public. Could you extend the same courtesy and wait until Geogre has had a chance to say

4253:

The first step in such leadership is (or should have been) a statement, onwiki, from the Arbitration Committee that it believes it would be helpful to the community and Arbcom for such an advisory body to be created, making it clear that this body is only intended as a forum for discussion and

3720:

I share the view that resignation is totally unnecessary and would be a loss to the project. A good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia did not work out as hoped. To err is human: integrity is demonstrated not by never making mistakes, but by always taking responsibility for ones actions.

1981:

I also have some real life experience with community advisory committees. Their structure is a strong determinant of their output and dynamics. One of my community committees's (for a local gov dealing with land use issues) poison pill was the inclusion of an elected official. Of course he was

1965:

Furthermore, while I think there should be a way to communicate better ideas to ArbCom and think it a good idea to facilitate that, such a communication should not in itself be a lightning rod for controversy or put these idea suggesters in the middle of drama. I don't want to have to cover my

1961:

That's now two editors who have asserted that LGBT editors or WP:LGBT is being overrepresented by this think tank thing. I'm so puzzled by this. I don't recognize any of the editors listed for this committee as contributors to primarily LGBT topics, major contributors to LGBT topics (and as I

1896:

Might I suggest that whatever role the proposed group takes, it might be beneficial to set up a page similar to this one? Namely, that group members post to the front page, and debate can continue in an alternate track on talk? I figure that there is some selection here, and while we shouldn't

1819:

This particular group has been under discussion amongst the Committee since late May, but the general idea of an advisory body has been brought up at various times over the past few months. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any discussion outside the Committee along these lines, although

10162:

Well, CoM has always seemed to hold Baseball Bugs in the highest contempt throughout all these theatrics, followed by you, Scjessey and then probably myself. So in his very unique point of view on the Wiki-world, I'd say Bugs is Adolph, you can be Goring, and Scjessey is Bormann. I'm just a

10113:

By encouraging other editors to fight the battles ChildofMidnight can no longer fight, he's trying to have his way by proxy. I don't know if Arbcom wants to allow that kind of venting on an editor's own talk pages, but if that spills over to other talk pages it's a real problem with tangible

6998:

virtually zero--we all know it.) Perhaps a warning and a temporary desysop for emphasis might be considered. What's been done here seems excessively harsh. Maybe I am jaded because I encounter sock masters who do really bad stuff, rather than those who write featured articles while socking.

491:

the letter and the spirit of his restrictions, and he has violated both in this case. As I tried to explain to him months ago when I was trying to help head off the community ban, he has a responsibility to keep his nose extra super squeaky clean, and avoid even the appearance of flouting the

10713:

I wouldn't even be posting here, but I saw Grundle's question and then soon after the hateful smears distortions and attacks from Knowledge's most abusive POV pusher smacked me in the face. He should have immediately been sanctioned for his outrageous attack on me in violation of his editing

3549:

With respect Will, I'm not sure if you were serious or not, but that's a horrendous idea. Sure, this resignation has been somewhat disruptive to the community, but block someone for it? Being an arbitrator is a thankless job, and I'm honestly not as suprised as I thought I would be when this

2563:

Please reconsider, whether or not this was a good idea or not, you are a valued (by me at least) member of Arbcom and losing your input and skills from Arbcom would be a big loss. I would hope that even the strongest critics of this idea agree that it does not need you to resign from arbcom.

1609:

group of Wikipedians can do). I would hope that people will find the group's ideas to be useful—certainly, this many experienced editors ought to be able to come up with something worth considering—but the community is perfectly free to agree, or disagree, with anything this group suggests.

10209:

Okay everyone, time to go back to your respective corners and cut it out. The posts above border on personal attacks, and are not acceptable, from any of you. This is not the place for rubbing salt in each other's wounds or continuing the type of poor interpersonal interaction that leads to

8762:

Yes, it does rather. I confess, having been away when this board came into being, that it rather amuses me. I presume it stems from the wish for greater openness about ArbComn decisions. It is self-evidently bureaucratic, but this is felt to be counterbalanced by the need to publicise which

4113:

These are profound words of wisdom on every account, from the need for reform, the good faith of those involved in this proposal, the flaws in the proposal as presented, and the encouragement to make the best of things. The above is not too long to read, and I encourage everyone to read it.

2804:

Kirill, I'd really beg you to reconsider - if this has got off to a bad start, it really has little to do with the purpose for which you were elected. What is to be gained from your resignation? The community beef seems to be the group will be an unaccountable executive formed without their

1011:

Its entirely unclear what the relationship of this group is to the arbitration/dispute resolution process is. Is this group going to be loosely affiliated, simply given the imprimatur of Knowledge's formal social mechanisms, or is this group "too involved" to be involved in bringing forward

6787:

Ok, but when Arbs voted on "3.2) Administrators using a second account in a forbidden manner will be summarily de-sysopped, per the "Administrative sock puppets" section of the sock puppetry policy." That's an inaccurate statement of policy then isn't it? Shouldn't the motion be changed?

10087:

I supposed that "broadly construed across all namespaces" even includes my own talk page. But I like talking with him about that topic on my own talk page. I don't think it's fair to apply the ban to my own talk page when I have no objection to him discussing that topic on my talk page.

2181:

Indeed. We have tried to make it very explicit that the role of this body is not to decide, but only to discuss and develop ideas for improving the project, in a slightly less chaotic fashion than might be accomplished by merely throwing vague ideas and premature proposals up on random

9984:

Looking at the archive in question, you did answer one of the "editprotected" requests. In fact, there were several such, and Masem was one of the admins answering such requests. Msgj (Martin) was another, as was Aervanath and Ckatz. Oh hang on. You are being sarcastic, aren't you? :-)

7010:

stating that admins who sock "will" be desysopped. That's worth noting in the policy, so that the few admins who try and sock know what Arbcom have stated their own stance, as the "final voice" on such cases and desysoppings, will be. The wording change was precise and accurate, from

4536:

ongoing conversations - about how to edit an article, about how to manage Knowledge. If dissent always led to one side of the argument quitting (or being banned), people will just stop expressing dissent. We don't want that, do we? There should be a way for people to work together

8777:

There has been discussion aimed at making much of the "administrative" internal discussion open and on-wiki (for motions involving sanctions where there is no need for consideration of private evidence, or no real urgency to act swiftly, we would probably use the newly-resurrected

6839:

Actually it does - if Arbcom have 'clarified' a policy here, it has an effect on future cases, conduct and the policy itself. The rules need to be clear. The use of IAR to explain away 'exceptions' or 'mitigations' isn't very helpful in providing a good ruleset for the community.

3627:

Hey, we've got to crack down on these problem editors. ;) The simplest solution here is for Kirill to just dust himself off and get back on the horse. My idea is just to say "OK, we've heard you, but that's not a reason to quit. Resign for personal reasons, but not for this one."

1823:

In principle, I suppose the community has the ability to shut down anything it wants, whenever it wants. Under normal circumstances, though, the Committee can ask anyone for advice without needing the community's approval, so I'm not sure what the practical effect of this would

6090:

Using socks to edit war and circumvent 3RR is not "a fuss about nothing" - had a rank-and-file editor been caught doing that, he would, at a minimum, be subject to a short block. We hold admins to a higher, not lower standard. A motion to desysop should be an obvious next step.

6931:

policy that for no good reason allows people to operate multiple accounts without full disclosure." Some of us are trying to tighten up that language but there is one editor who is vociferously opposing any change, and is even accusing editors of bad faith for suggesting it.

10664:, rather you're worried that, perhaps, Buchenwald and Kristallnacht are right around the corner and that today's Knowledge "brownshirts" (some admins, Arbs, and/or POV pushers...right?) are tomorrows' concentration camp guards (or something, at the very least we know they 1458:

group that you think could offer more insight? I would be quite happy if, in six months' time, we have a dozen different think tanks all doing their best to come up with proposals; it's not as though I think the editors we've gathered have a monopoly on good ideas! ;-)

739:

Interesting, definitely. Somewhat suprised that no-one who has experience in content disputes was invited, as far as i can see. While arbcom doesn't deal with content, someone who has experience doing so would probably be of benefit. Vassyana and Xavexgoem come to mind.

1095:

I do not think the "name" is important. I do not feel comfortable with any of those listed as serving as a "laison" between me and ArbCom, especially since two are already ArbCom members. And the rest of us have no say in who is "selected"? How were they "selected"?

6855:

different situation. The blatant use of an alternate account to votestack and give the illusion of two people in editting where they are clearly the same person is a major problem, and I cannot imagine that such a violation of community trust should go unchecked. --

3986:

your job, don't try to create new roles for yourself, and keep editing the damn encyclopedia. If that is too much to ask, then why are you even here? We have over a million users. I'm sure by percentage alone there are some decent people out there that can handle it.

724:

key rules that could be provided to new editors, and so forth), but these may not necessarily be things we ask the group to look at. A bigger motivator, I think, is just a desire on our part to have a someone readily available that we can turn to when we need advice.

5550:

Yes, I know that mistakes are made. What I'm trying to do is make sure that Tiptoety does not make this "mistake" again, something I certainly hope for. I was a bit aggressive with my third comment, but not the ones you were referring to. Hopefully, this solves it.

1857:

but there's a stretch in creating a permanent body for that. ArbCom has already called for RFCs, it could call for investigations and advises on a problem to the community in a way to be determined, which could be related to the suggested process I mention earlier.

10803:

Me too. Other duties call. I hope this can be dealt with by the time we return, so that responsible well-intentioned editors can go about our business without being called Nazis, vandals, censors, and whatever else by those attempting to upturn the apple cart.

10492:

article or any of the other article about him. I've been stalked to other articles, and when it's suggested that they are somehow about or related to Obama, I've left those too. Is this kind of hounding, stalking, censorship and harassment something you support?

7410:

As much as I hate endorsing the desysop of a longstanding and valued contributor, Aitias has a history of questionable judgment and was previously given another chance. I was surprised when ArbCom opted not to desysop last time, and now there isn't much choice.

1007:

This council doesn't have a clear mission statement or purpose but a series of hopes and caveats ("coming up with ideas that either the Committee or the community as a whole might choose to pursue" and "anything it might recommend will need to achieve consensus

3861:

He didn't take any responsibility - we as a community were not given the chance to decide his fate. This is like a person killing themselves before they are put on trial. The only way for justice to be served is for justice to be served, not by hiding from it.

2277:

needed. Consensus is all well and good, but Knowledge is having the same problem that communes did in the 60s; if they were popular, they became too big and collapsed under their own weight. Some sort of guidance is needed. The general impossibility of getting

10863:

I hear you. I deliberately hadn't focused on a particular editor by name, or read every word of the underlying discussion, so I couldn't be seen as having prejudged everything if we wind up with this situation back formally in front of the committee. Regards,

8994:), but I trust the appeals subcommittee knows what they are doing. That said, I do feel it would have been a nice gester to have been contacted prior to the unblock seeing as I was the blocking administrator. Maybe that can be incorporated into the BASCs SOP? 10303:, I always forget) these refer to. Reacting to being called a fucking (pardon my francais) Nazi is not rubbing salt or "continuing the type of poor interpersonal interaction", that is a completely absurd assessment of the situation. Thankfully there are 8258:

After analyzing the whole thing, all I can say is the ArbCom should have been a little kind towards Everyking. He has done a lot of good work, and ameliorated multiple articles. I really hope that the restriction imposed on him will be lifted one day....

10079: 6046:

on a list of possible further actions that could happen. Also, not everyone on the Committee has likely fully reviewed the diffs so there may be some delay in voting or adding motions until the evidence cited at the motion discussion is fully reviewed.

2008:

For some reason, I think it's worth it to clarify that I think no one so far has behaved in a self-important manner in this instance. I was just relaying my experience with advisory committees as it related to my apprehension of signing on immediately.

10133:

incredibly disruptive. I hope at some point those with administrative authority will put a stop to it. Grundle2600's article creation and editing work speaks for itself as does mine. Wikidemon's campaign of harassment and intimidation is an obscenity.

8096:

I'm not sure what you think I should have said. On the one hand, I was being told that it was wrong for me to appeal; on the other hand, I was being told to talk some more about it. In effect, I was being told to shut up and speak up at the same time.

7241:

If you would like to avoid drama, as suggested by your edit summary, why don't you email an arbitrator instead of posting publicly? Most likely Geogre hasn't thought to remove the template. Feel free to remove my comment if you decide to remove yours.

4726:

Well, it is really a matter of semantics as there is a world of difference between actual power and perceived influence. I would hope such a council would be influential, but based on the strength of its ideas rather than on the nature of its genesis.

1000:

Related to the previous, I'd like too see some opportunity for a voice for those who don't show up regularly in governance issues, on boards or so on, who can give a more ground level viewpoint. Perhaps someone who is active in particular wikiprojects

4845: 9507:

I acknowledge that I would prefer not to have a manual of style, rather than have one decided by someone who determines grammatical issues by Google search - and then misreads the search. We don't have to pick one; and if thirteen million people use

3118:

Definitely agree with Malleus here. Rootology, please retract both the above posts, it's completely inappropriate to bring your personal grudge into this. When you start getting civility warnings from myself and Malleus, something is seriously wrong

9157: 7671:

warring on any other page, judge what is needed for the situation and warn, protect (or archive discussions) and/or block as needed. The exception to this being edits by clerks or arbitrators, who may need to revert or edit through page protection.

3526:

I suppose that the resignation could be considered disruptive, and the editor could be blocked for that cause until he agrees to follow the consensus of the community by resuming working at the ArbCom. But that'd be a difficult remedy to enforce.

1316:"The advisory group will also advise the Committee directly, providing us with feedback and ideas from a cross-section of the community that's not otherwise involved in our work." - Since when were Casliber and Kirill not involved with ArbCom? :) 1043:

that currently remain unresolved. ArbCom is aware of some of these issues because we see them repeatedly in our work. We plan to jump start the discussion with some issues that we would like the new group to discuss. But the topics for discussion

9366:

As I said some time ago, I will leave others to reform this if they can; but I do intend to ignore any rule imposed by a vocal minority not supported by general consensus or by English usage; nor I do not see that the page serves WP in any way -

5588:

Forgot to disclose (when supporting publication in the original announcement) that I wrote most of the summary, with help from others. Stuff about the announcement itself should be discussed on this page. To discuss the summary itself, please go

4441:

You may perhaps be unaware that arbitrators work in an environment of persistent complaint and criticism, aggravated by frequent personal attacks, on- and off-wiki harassment and/or stalking; and a heavy work load. Final straw and camels' backs?

1933:" What a sweeping self-indictment! Not only was this a proposal introduced out of the blue as a fait-accompli with no community discussion, but those involved aren't even sure whether they attempted to discuss it outside private channels or not. 6983:. I'm aware of Geogre's concerns about what happened with that earlier alternate account's password, but he needs to follow that up and find out whether it is even possible (years later) to find out what happened there, rather than speculating. 5294:

Why wouldn't it? Tiptoey was a major participant in the case. He/she made a statement, presented evidence, made proposals on the workshop, and recused from the case as a clerk. I think that is more than good enough for another clerk to step in.

791:

either way. They may at times give advice or make proposals on to how to solve certain complex situations, or make proposals on new methods. This is why I think it would benefit to have someone from the content DR aspect of things at the table.

10428:

Well then if we could swing back to the original question that started this, out of curiosity...would ChildofMidnight be prohibited from discussing Obama-related material on another user's talk page? Grundle's question never did get answered.

1871:

I would assume that the community shutting down ArbCom would be in the vein of a constitutional crisis of some sort, no? My feeling has always been that the community retains the authority to do so in principle, despite the lack of any actual

1695:

You can ask anyone for advice, but it's informal. I don't think you have the right to set up a formal committee to decide the project's future *and* to close the membership *and* to include yourself (whether someone else suggested you or not).

4201:

Consensus is a series of discussions. That is all we really can do, unless you want to switch to a straight up vote. I think all of the thousands of bytes added to threads like this is proof that people are perfectly able and willing to talk.

2113:, mainly to keep WP out of the courts, policies and guidelines are supposedly the result of consensus within the community (how far that is true is a different matter). Since ArbCom is largely reactive, functioning as the highest level of the 10035:) and Kotniski (who has not edited MOS pages or talk pages since the restriction was relaxed). I would (again) urge that the Arbitration Committee seriously look at reviewing the stability of MOS pages and the conduct of those who edit them, 10545:

please just deal with it? It is most upsetting, and completely counter to what I understand the purpose of Knowledge to be, to be called a Nazi for rejecting the attempt to claim in our encyclopedia that Obama is not a citizen of America.

8351:

While it is theoretically possible for an Arbitration Committee to appoint people who have less than 70% support, I expect that the foundation would be alarmed it if ever happened. The closest checkuser/oversight vote that I can recall is

5052:

I cant speak for all arbitrators, but we do usually watch the case pages closely as the case draws to a close. Late additions to the Workshop are less likely to gather community or committee interest, because there is less time to discuss

4815: 1875:

As far as this body is concerned, the community shut down the "think tank" aspects (i.e. by dissolving the body's public gathering); but it can't prevent ArbCom from coming to the people in the group for advice without shutting down ArbCom

10000:

I am wondering why Mr Anderson is in so many negative situations at the moment, which appear to be part of the larger picture of his behavioural issues brought to ArbCom's attention here. Today, for example, I see that people are annoyed

1119:

using a majority vote to determine who will be asked to be a founding member. Some candidates have declined, so that has also played a part in the make up of it. We have not decided how the membership will be maintained in the future.

9036: 3427:

Resignations from ArbCom are unilateral and automatic. In most cases though people that step down of their own initiative are free to change their mind and reclaim their seat later (as long as their elected term has not yet expired).

1837:

Thanks for the replies. Just noting that I didn't mean the executive committee would be related to the advisory council, it would be entirely separate in my mind. An advisory committee in this context shouldn't have any special power.

808:

Steve, I've no idea who else has been invited, but the statement currently says that there are some people who've yet to respond, so it could be that someone/s will pop up, and it also seems that ArbCom would welcome more suggestions.

10232:

Am I forbidden now from uttering certain words and discussing certain topics on Knowledge? Based on what? Shame on you and your colleagues for creating this Orwellian environment of thuggery, intimidation and abuse. It's disgusting.

9211:

WP:MOSNUM is declared historic. It shall be tagged {{historic}} and kept protected; neither it, nor any of the material it now contains, shall be considered to have any more force than an editor's opinion, for all purposes including

8052: 9550:

To PMAnderson: have the maturity to unwatch the various MOS pages and simply walk away. When we start to discuss issues such as "19th" versus "nineteenth", we are not interested in embarking on a discussion of the philosophy behind

6679:

I opposed because of archival needed to be clarified first. In my opinion, knowing that the party under discussion might read the archive after the fact is a problem, and that had not been clarified by the time the motion passed.

4872: 2109:

need "think tanks" to examine and extrapolate in detail both proposed new /changed legislation and circumstances that might require such changes. However AFAIK ArbCom does not make policy - apart from a few that are mandated by the

371:

due to that lack (though it might have been rejected anyway due to other factors). Could the ArbCom please be clearer when lifting appeals as to how editors with complaints against these unbanned editors are expected to proceed?

5535:. Comments like "Please don't ever let it happen again" or "Hopefully" are needlessly snarky and completely unhelpful. They add nothing to the discussion except ill-will and a negative attitude. Please adjust your tone. Thanks. -- 4830: 8326: 7403: 5197: 1234:

I am personally very concerned with the ill defined scope and grand sweep. What I hope to see out of this is something much less formal than it is titled - a group of dedicated Wikipedians with working relationships that act as

5112:

about this abuse. She was also shown to be uncivil and edit war outside of the ADHD pages. Why is there no mention of her uncivilness in the findings, and why was there not a more significant response given to her edit warring?

3815:

to the community. Anyone doing such is unfit to have held the position they had to begin with. History and tradition for thousands of years verifies my claim, and no amount of protestation can change what is a universal truth.

3139:

I've got virtually no history of interaction ever with Mattisse, but have just observed from a distance. Is it really a personal attack for me to say that I consider Kirill more valuable to the project than Mattisse? Honestly?

219:

Seems like s/he won't be able to cause any harm under the restrictions proposed (though God knows there'll be a quibble about the definitions soon)... but why are we going to all this trouble in order to help a trouble-editor?

4753: 8818:

noticeboard archives. A list of what I included in that stat will be in the fuller report, but as it is based on public on-wiki pages, I will provide that list on request if anyone asks at the discussion page for the report.

8183:

stood. Conceptually, I can see that when someone appeals a decision they run the risk that they may be worth of after their appeal, but to have an automatic penalty for an unsuccessful appeal is a pretty dubious proposition.

5612: 4695:

a toothless committee?). Many who oppose this endeavor view the group as far from toothless or would say that, if it were, then it is merely pointless because it will be impossible for them to actually accomplish anything. --

3022:

take such rash action. BTW, I have a watchlist that's 3662 pages long (x2 when you consider talk pages); what does it say about us as a community when literally 99% of what's showing up on it today are updates to this page?

10472:

Based on the Request for clarification identified on the noticeboard, ChildofMidnight. The motion was open for two full weeks, and the request made on August 7th. You commented there. This should not be a surprise to you.

9354:

Consensus discussions should always be attempts to convince others, using reasons. When a discussion breaks down to a mere polarized shouting match, there is no possibility of consensus, and the quality of the article will

9027: 8974: 10389:

I believe we're listening, Risker, we just disagree. This is a matter that could be dealt with swiftly by any administrator, and probably should be if Arbcom is not ready to act. Why encourage the filing of a new case?

8475:

hope that won't be required. I suspect as well that this may be a regional variation in the use of the terms, as this is certainly common North American usage. This isn't legalese, either, Scott, it's just plain English.

2453:(The fact that I happened to be the one to post the announcement about it is neither here nor there; I make most of our announcements, simply because doing so is one of my responsibilities as the coordinating arbitrator.) 10268:

Like Germany under Hitler and Hermann Goering, seen here at Nuremberg in 1928 (before their rise to power), Knowledge is patrolled by "brownshirted" stormtroopers in 2009 censoring those they disagree with from speaking"

4975: 4883: 3652:

I hope Kirill changes his mind, but he's a volunteer in all his positions in Knowledge (and I'll acknowledge here the outstanding role he continues to play in the Military History wikiproject) and it's totally up to him.

9282:

That's counting thousands of editors who have singly protested some crusade; most of them have been revert-warred out of MOS by a combination of two or three Crusaders; I suppose I should be honored by attracting six.

9076: 2578:

As kindly as possible, this isn't the British Parliament, resignation is not a form of apology. Say you may have made a mistake, buck up, and move on. Resigning may look like the right thing to do, but its really just

10048: 8043: 7429: 9978: 9319: 9264:

I was of course referring to the multitude of editors who have worked on the various MOSs at WP over the years (you have stated that you would like to see all their work marginalised). Incidentally, it hasn't been a

8111:

Well, the middle ground was chosen. As pointed out above, you now have a clear endpoint for this sanction. It will not last forever, and it won't end today either. But, unless you take some ill-considered action, it

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It will be appropriate to announce the question/voting phase by watchlist, however; it meets the criteria of being an event of relevance to the entire editing community with a well-defined 'crowd control' mechanism.

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small, and I would prefer to topic ban those editors rather than put an article under complete administrative control. If the current remedies do not appear to be working, the community can request an amendment at

4836: 4798: 9129:. I was asked repeatedly, "Why does a given piece of text mean X?" It means Y, which directly contradicts X, and I suggested clarifications which make it beyond doubt that it means Y. At the third repetition, the 5950:

Insofar as the public evidence suggests that Geogre used his sock in discussions related to his administrator actions, this is arguably a matter involving the use of admin tools. Whether the ArbCom may open a case

2737:

issue you get hot under the collar with, can I ask you talk through your objections with your mentors and if you still feel you'd like to pursue it, take their advise on board, before posting here again? Cheers. --

996:

While I appreciate this group is a series of experienced and dedicated Wikipedians, I am concerned by the appearance of elitism - which I am afraid will dull its effectiveness to address the problems of those less

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whatever incident they are dealing with. Anyway, I'm done here for the night. It's time for bed where I am. If you have any more questions about how administrators would handle such an incident, please ask at the

10022: 7833: 211: 7397: 5188: 4246:!votes), but are misleading in general. The consensus model that lies at the root of Knowledge's success continues to work well in most cases, and rumours of its demise have been somewhat exaggerated recently. 4216:

Some form of democracy is going to happen. I also think it will have to be imposed on us, to a certain extent. I respect arbcom for trying. Maybe Jimbo will do something what with all these resignations. -

486:

okay. This is supposed to be his absolute final double secret probation chance. And he's already pushing it. Yes, he only used it once, but that is hardly the point. The point is that he is required to follow

10487:

This is a completely new restriction that was not in place before. So I want to know what it's based on. I haven't intentionally violated any of the previous restrictions. I haven't made a single edit to the

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A few answers. No plan to include members on Funct-l. The group is more or less a think tank that is intended to hold discussions in a way that will help the Community find better ways to develop solution to

390:

I second Will's question here since, as he says, one incident was already brought to AE for handling. If someone believes one of these provisional unbans has been violated, how/where should that be handled?

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Dammit, if we can stop a "volunteer" from vandalising the project we can as sure damn (try to) stop another volunteer from resigning responsibilities a whole lot of other volunteers agreed they could have.

3166:

What Malleus and Iridescent said ... Mattisse has made many fine content contributions to this encyclopedia ... everyone, take a break from this, if you possibly can. You'll feel better for it later on. ;)

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The idea of devolving authority from ArbCom is an interesting one, although I'm not sure what we could devolve that would be useful to a group of this nature. Generally speaking, I would suggest that the

5319:

Nishkid64 is another clerk. He (as a uninvolved clerk) has stated that he feels the closure was proper. Now it is just a matter of whose name is associated with it, which honestly does not really matter.

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I should think it is very unserious - if there had been a chance of it being successful he would likely have done it. Anyhow, there are other ways to diminish disruption outside of blocking. Allegedly.

8320: 8170:(and now 1 last remaining one) trouble him is self evident. That the sanction has been reduced to one year is a positive step that I hope will give him some confort, but I am troubled by the addition: 7985:

Precis: if abstentions were counted as votes, they would be little different than oppose votes. The same system is used at RFA, where neutral comments are not counted towards the success ratio. — Carl

6774:"Will" is inaccurate because administrators who use socks in a forbidden manner might never get discovered. And, they might get a pass (unlike this case). "May" is entirely appropriate... Amending... – 6397: 5607: 4895: 9939:

Convergence of opinion: that’s good. BTW, I was indeed present throughout the period of both lock-downs and was totally unrestricted at the time as to the topics on which I could weigh in. And it was

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any Arbs feel that the community rejection of this council has made it impossible for them to do the job that they were elected to do, they should go ahead and resign. Short of that, I hope none do.

9133:

does become tendentious, irrelevant, and inflammatory, just like the notoriously unanswerable question quoted. Doubtless the next accusation will be that I called Noetica a wife-beater</irony: -->

6975:), and a consistent style used by both accounts that more people should have picked up on earlier, but there was in no way, shape or form the full disclosure that was required. What was required was 4595:). I've also been working on two documents, one is a brief summary and one is a fuller summary, detailing what ArbCom have done in the last six months, pursuent to the current top item on the agenda 10687:

Thank goodness! Things are looking up. An end to your one-sided interventions and aggressive actions against me and others who you disagree with on content would be a wonderful thing for Knowledge.

5912:

blocked, and while there's attempts to whitewash the fact that he's abusively used it as a sock, shouldn't we be holding him to SOCK anyhow? The motion just restates what should already be clear. --

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The alliance of work and people as displayed in a 1934 Nazi exhibition, an environment not unlike that on Knowledge where content contributors who don't toe the line are subject to grotesque abuse

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find workable solutions without, sorry, everyone and their dog throwing in their snark or two cents' worth. I think the fact that this group will explicitly have zero power should be comforting. →

1546:"Community consensus" is a millstone, a dead weight that we continually drag around behind us, an excuse for doing nothing. Nobody can even adequately define what it means, or how it's measured. -- 8295: 7850: 4094:

to centralize and organize the discussion of contentious policy issues, to formalize polling procedures when necessary, and to help bring closure to some of the issues that perpetually divide us.

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new users) are regularly admonished for claiming they are admins, and this seems to fit within that general principle, as any user unaware of the history who visits his page would think he is. →

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the person would see it in a month, as opposed to currently and arbs would feel no more free to comment on a colleague's behavior if they would see it in a week than if they would see it today.

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could open a case on its own impetus (or, for that matter, whether it is appropriate that it does so in the first place) is an open matter and we didn't deem it wise to conflate the issues. —

4648:

If it were entirely irrelevant we would not be here commenting about it. Accepting that it is an attempt to oversee our particular corner of the world, principles of governance are relevant.

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I would hope that a desysop doesn't come by motion unless there is an emergency, and is related to the use of admin tools. Anyway, the placement of a sockpuppet tag is not mandated by policy (

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a MOS. Everyone of your "contributions" to the MOS discussions reverts to your agenda-driven debate (which diverts from the basis of the original question posed by a Wikipedian—in this case

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Risker, are you not reading what this is actually about? Our dear ChildofMidnight has a whiny screed at the top of his talk page, a pair of Nazi images with accompanying captions that read

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function of long-term editors who are known to us being more likely to be admins than non-admins. Of course, if you have any suggestions for additional members, please do send them to us.

7876:

I'm a bit surprised to see this closed, since voting on both the case and motion had been going back and forth quite a bit. The last vote on the motion was only 4 hours before closure. --

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role as an Arbitrator. If you stay on ArbCom, ArbCom and Knowledge will be better off for it. I know this for certain. Please don't feel obligated to resign because you made a mistake. --

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On wikipedia, anything from the ground up is stamped on and beaten into submission - accept that and we are half way to helping the project. Now, on a more realistic note it appears that

850: 9063:. Editors (including myself) who were driven away from the MoS pages by the constant warring were finally coming back and getting some work done. I fear we are going to devolve again. -- 6130: 4821: 1274:

its work. Hopefully, the effort will lead to a better Knowledge in one way or another—even if the benefit winds up being a lesson in what works and doesn't work in groups of this type.

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This entire discussion arises from an issue typical of MOSNUM, a Crusade even more useless to Knowledge than date delinking. Because Andy and a half-dozen of his friends like to write

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Feel free to prove yourself more capable at that than at this specious charge, or than in attempting to reform the English language. I should like a pleasant surprise from Knowledge.

9306:

20 times in one day, how can an article editor expect to conform to it? I politely requested, at the MOSNUM talk page (section "Flurry of edits", that matters were sorted out in talk

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editors are worried about this issue. I don't know about the other people who accepted invitation, but I anticipated such questions from the outset and I am ready with my answers. :)

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Then I would indeed unwatch it. As long as there are bots, and as long as Language Reformers can use FA and GA to get their way, that would be a real improvement. Where do we start?

8440:

I think the problem is people with no real understanding of legalese trying to write in it (I speak as an ex-lawyer). They should either write it out long-hand or leave it to Brad.--

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which was sanctions. Does this not demonstrate a "gaming of the system"? In disregarding quality of evidence to such a degree, did they not approach arbitration in a dishonest way?--

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show a lack of conviction which only verifies a problem with all of these circumstances. This was a very bad move by Kirill and will damage his ability to function as an Arbitrator.

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Ok, we'll look to implement tomorrow evening (UTC) unless told otherwise. Not sure if you want this process logged anywhere else, so leaving it in the hands of Arbs and their clerks

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No, that way lies madness and the usual wikilawyering. The conditions are stark and clear: no automation. Period. BC is already nibbling around the edges of the boundaries. This is

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One further question, in the interests of transparency, would Risker, Stephen Bain, or Vassyana like to explain their opposition? (Or Casliber and Carcharoth their ambivalence?)--

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just the parties to this case. It was the date-delinking case that brought some people to the attention of ArbCom, but not everyone's behaviour got the scrutiny that was needed.

8444: 8435: 8362: 7885: 5643:, as on past experience, he/she will return to the page at some point, which given the previous sockpuppetry, is just not going to foster a good faith reaction from me at least. 4735: 3616: 3558: 2805:

consultation. Ok, lets deal with that then - listen, adapt and evolve - if even my esteemed colleague above hasn't called for your immediate desyssoping, it can't be that bad. --

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same way the rest of us do: manual edit by manual edit, clicking the "Save page" button each time. Any other interpretation of that limitation is wikilawyering in my opinion. --

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should work both ways. Issues about procedure, timelines, etc...shouldn't become roadblocks to meaningful closure. Bellow are issues that I would like Arbitration to comment on:

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invitation to join this august body has been lost on the post - Kirill, perhaps you would like to redress that, one more confirmed non-admin would help the balance wouldn't it?

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making the edits, with mixed success. I have no interest in any personal conflicts here, and simply refuse to get dragged in to any, I just want a stable, and better, MOSNUM.

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Note that just as admins are told to protect disputed pages on the most recent version, I have stepped in here without regard to who had the last word or not. Enough already.

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project development. You, and seven other arbitrators, and eighteen volunteers all meant well. For all the sound and fury, no one really wants to throw you to the lions.

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community about which editors should be appointed advisors. It will allow the community to suggest additonal nominees, whom it will appoint or not, as it sees fit. Cool. --

1434: 1307: 1109: 799: 766: 414: 254: 10097: 9845: 9110: 9095: 8864: 8799: 8628: 8253: 8224: 8215:. My point is mainly that having an express punishment (extension of sanctions) for someone who is unsuccessful in an appeal is Draconian and hard to justify objectively. 8205: 7659: 7640: 7612: 6916: 6895: 6879: 6797: 6782: 6447: 4421: 4138: 4083: 4048: 4034: 4010: 3995: 3824: 3809: 3705:

regret it, it's his choice (though I think it would be a great loss). 2. Being coordinating Arbitrator must be a thankless job and I applaud him for all of his hard work.

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also the targets of these accusations. I'm not an admin. Do admins have a special privilege to object, whereas nonadmin users like me just have to suffer accusations?

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pull the plug on this swamp. It's a breeding place for controversy, and a indiscriminate mass of unsourced, uncited, arbitrary and silly edicts made up in class one day.

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I will graciously strike the "irrelevent" comment but note in the strongest terms that our tolerance for the useless political players is one of our greatest weaknesses.

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abuse that would justify requesting a checkuser. (He may well have taken notice of the userpage the way I did: by watchlisting this noticeboard and following the link.)

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Well, I just assumed it was a general AGF sentiment that convinced them to support. If that's an incorrect notion, however, I would indeed be interested in knowing why.

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What I am attempting to avoid is the same class of editor telling some newbie to change their spelling. This will lose us editors, without benefiting the encyclopedia.

9611:

Folks, this page is not intended as a forum for debating style rules. Truly, if you feel the spirit or letter of an arbitration remedy has been violated, it belongs at

9588:! Change this horror or be denied FA/denied GA/have to face edit wars with meddlesome bots"; this irrelevant noise supplants all too much of FA's actual effectiveness. 8701: 8496: 6641: 6560: 6497: 6178: 5903: 4878: 4787: 3662: 2965: 2760: 2637: 2588: 2299: 2018: 1999: 1268: 1162: 1055: 433: 10837: 10332: 10190: 10172: 8794:

time of publication would help (or indeed moving on-wiki entirely, but note that even on-wiki some arbitrators don't give reasons for their votes or failures to vote).

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clearly shows how his uncivil behaviour and the amount of personal attacks directed towards other users' has lead to himself been blocked for his behaviour. Is it not

5005:

Substantial and significant material was added to the proposal section just before the arbitration was closed. Specifically, with added comments to Nja247's proposals

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applicable policies and to be civil when discussing other style guidelines. To me that suggests complaints of incivility or edit warring by covered editors belong at

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We the community note Kirill's request to resign from the Arbitration Committee. We the community respectfully deny the request and ask Kirill to continue in service.

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I think it looks great to include the "motions" and "requests for cases" sections. I also think it good to include a "hide" button on the sections of the template. —

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feasible for a 'likely' result to have come from this situation, surely. And what happens if Melonite edits from work as an IP logged out from the Melonite account?

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Speaking less of principle and more of practical approaches, I would of course encourage the community to constructively modify the group to better serve its needs.

520: 508: 477: 462: 10453: 10438: 10316: 9197:). For PMAnderson it is not enough to make a comment as to his preferred wording (re. the original "nineteen" issue); instead, he is personalising the discussion (" 8786:

administrative discussions and decisions could well be taken on-wiki (the discussion for internal motions usually takes place on the arbwiki, not the mailing list).

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would be the best place to take considerations of that sort; the policy could be modified to include something along those lines before it goes up for ratification.

10937: 9220:", yes, it is true that PMAnderson can take part (and has taken part) in rational discussion at the MOS, however for some reason it is all too easy for him not to. 7037: 4143:

Exactly. You can't use a broken consensus-forming process to form a consensus to replace itself with something better. :) I wanted to work on fixing this problem.

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Mother Mary an Jozef, this is way out of proportion. C'mon Kirill, you're one of the good guys -- withdraw your resignation and get back to work. Matisse, enough.

2557: 2380:, and also state their objections to ArbCom convening this advisory council, and their objections to the way this was announced and set up. But that discussion of 869:

and off we go. Kirill, I suggest we start by formulating some kind of agenda. As this is an innovation of Arbcom, are there any wishlists you'd like prioritise? --

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attack, irrespective of any perceived provocation or impropriety by the editor or editors targeted. I hope that it will never be necessary to revisit this issue.

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In any case, I take full responsibility for the errors in judgment made in convening the ACPD, and have tendered my resignation from the Arbitration Committee.

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listening to the community. There are still issues here with separation of powers, but they are much reduced compared to those associated with an advisory body

3961:

I look forward to Ottava getting elected to arbcom this fall so he can a) fix everything he thinks is wrong and b) he will then see what it's like to be an arb

3753:

On the contrary, the fact that Kirill is willing to admit that he thinks he made a bad decision is in itself an indication of his suitability for the position.

3344:

their renowned dispassionate reviewing abilities, might consider these violations of the remedies recently attached to your continuing editing of this project.

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Is this group going to be added to Func-L, since they share some of the "community leadership" responsibilities but not necessarily the privacy responsibilities

638:

contributing content -- the stuff users actually read -- & not making automated edits of a controversial nature. "Despicable"? -- bah. I'm going to bed. --

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In any case, I take full responsibility for the errors in judgment made in convening the ACPD, and have tendered my resignation from the Arbitration Committee.

3038:

Kirill, your value to Knowledge outshines Matisse by about 50:1 at a minimum. Please get back in your judicial robes, or underwear, or whatever you Arbs wear.

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I don't think relying on the system administrators to routinely delete archived messages is a good idea nor do I think such requests would be fulfilled. See

8333:

Congratulations to the new appointees! Feel free to consult a seasoned CheckUser or Oversighter if you have any questions or just need a second set of eyes.

7910:

opinions seemed to be shifting towards rejecting the motion, and usually there's a bit of time after the last active vote is cast before a case is closed. --

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says explicitly that the templates are not covered by the policy): these tags only seem to serve to humiliate. But why should an ArbCom clerk look at that?

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too much time is being wasted under the current system, which breeds anarchy and where the only remedies are to start big formal ANIs, WQAs, and ArbComs.

6207:

Is there a reason all this is so secret? Can there be "valid reasons" for the creation of Utgard, and can the way the account was used be justified? —

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Indeed; and anyone expressing their interest is very much encouraged to mention if they can bring experience that the group currently lacks to the table.

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Based on what Risker? Why is my restriction being stepped up? Because of the stalking and harassment I've been subjected to? how does that make sense?

6803:

desysopping somehow, IAR allows us to ignore that bit as needed. As with most policy, "may" and "will" are almost synonymous here, for that last reason.

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Only some people at that. Its not like people are actually asking for Kirill's head, and if they have, I guess I've been ignoring them as melodramatic.--

9140:

a particularly imbecilic provision is brought to my attention, I do indeed intend to continue the experiment of seeing how MOS evolves without my help.

5513:

Sorry, I know I started with the metaphor, but I don't follow. The fact that Tiptoety enacted the motion doesn't change the fact that it passed 6-0-1. –

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Re (2), the point here is that it's never been clear whether the community has the power to overturn broad decisions or processes introduced by ArbCom (

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Can you provide diffs of such abuses? I still haven't seen anything more than assertions. Where's the evidence? Please include diffs in your reply.

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he'd be watched to a point that any violation would be (a) discovered quickly, and (b) dealt with promptly, thus I felt safe enough in a trial unban.

10919: 10665: 10179: 9029: 7161: 6015: 3790:"If someone resigns over a dispute like this, then it shows that they were unfit to begin with", Ottava, you have no idea what you're talking about. 866: 10343:

was hasty. Asking those objecting to being compared to Nazis to stop complaining about it is probably not the swiftest thing. The Nazi accusations

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Yes, indeed. Action should be taken should someone dare edit war like that again. Giano didn't even provide an edit summary for the reverts made. —

7748:. This really should be an end to it. If someone could add something to the (non-existent?) edit notice for this page about this, I'd be grateful. 6409: 21: 10028: 5061: 4968: 2431:

Also, since we're informed that each proposed candidate was accepted or rejected with an up or down vote, are these votes going to be made public?

572:

I had a look at his contributions earlier this morning to check the throttle and saw that he'd configured Twinkle. I didn't notice he'd used it.

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many edicts. I am pleased to see that A. di M. is currently attempting to clean up the mess; but if he fails, as all before him, have failed, we

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Could the ArbCom publicize the next round of elections better? As it stands, the August announcement page has had 514 pageviews in total so far

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Well, it is not like I planned on purposefully enacting a motion on case which I was recused. But yes, I will ensure this does not happen again.

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Perhaps he read what is written here by your colleagues, not too mention the peanut gallery approaching orgasm, and thinks like me - who knows?

4783:

Roger: It's probably best if, even as co-ordinating arbitrator, you don't make announcements to which you are a subject. It just seems odd. :-)

10561:

C of M. Please move on to greener pastures, and if possible don't even bother to reply to this as it will only risk enflaming the situation. --

8653:

It wasn't intentionally omitted: it ended up on the cutting room floor by mistake. Significant numbers of arbs travelling is the main reason.

8045: 6912:, but that happened two years ago. The reaction here seems over the top, as if it is some sort of score settling. This makes me feel uneasy. 2450:

recuse, obviously, from considering my own membership; and I voted on the general proposal long before I, or anyone else, was actually invited.

1732:

been asked to fulfuil that role, don't you feel that it would better if the people who you turn to for advice are endorsed by the community? --

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pages) if the RfC is defeated (I faithfully promise never to go near a MOS-related page if the RfC mentioned above is carried.) How about it?

7333:

I never thought otherwise Roux. I'm sure the other millions watching this page agree with me on that. Your motives were of the highest order.

4412:

There are many, many voices on the RfC to work through and 148,258 active users in "the community". Lets not summarize the results just yet.--

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That is a good idea and we should have thought of that. Sorry. Anyway, the unblock has some conditions so hopefully things will go smoothly.

8887:

For many of us, I suppose. I know for a fact that I'll be there (I'm leading a panel on day two), and so will a number of my colleagues. —

8353: 7186: 4865: 10654:(posting out of sequence, but this is where this comment goes) I know when the images were from, and what they were of. I know in what year 10341: 8748:

You're clearly missing the point which is that this level of bureaucracy looks foolish. At least that is the point I was trying to make. -

3832: 9855: 4939: 4770: 9205:"), in an attempt to bully other editors as he continues his crusade of undoing the work of thousands of editors at the various MOSs (See 4902: 1931:

Off the top of my head, I don't recall any discussion outside the Committee along these lines, although perhaps I'm overlooking something.

1666:

The Committee will ask the group for advice, of course; but I would think that we're free to ask whomever we want for advice in any case.

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ought to be updated. At the moment it defines Arbcom's role as dispute resolution. It should reflect its new role in project governance.--

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of the page before removal says: "With thirteen active arbitrators on this case, seven is a majority." and I count 6 supports. Checking

5933:@Fuchs, the motion goes further than the SOCK policy to state that he cannot operate undisclosed legitimate socks which is permitted by 10006: 8807: 7159: 6960: 6760:

The motion summary makes it look like this was already policy, and no note to that effect is made. That's just plain rude to Geogre. --

5741:

past practice of returning to the Quayside article to reignite long dead disputes, and the suspicion of sock-puppetry which arose from

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I think the idea is to come up with ideas that can be run by the community, which then has the power to reject, modify or accept them.

6408:, which doesn't exactly bode well for a high turnout. (The February page, on the other hand, had 718 pageviews on its first day alone 6349: 5797: 928:

each member suggest a couple of topics that they'd like to see discussed; at least then we'll have a decent-size pool to choose from.

10054:

Internal Knowledge-space pages such as the MOS typically attract attention from our most experienced and dedicated editors. There is

10027:

Noting here that the arbitration enforcement request Laser brain (Andy Walsh) filed on Pmanderson has been closed by Shell Kinney by

7498:

This was apparently an internal motion. Can we have the vote tally (names) posted with the announcement and on the case page please?

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that he is "not planning to return for a while, even if this amendment passes", PMAnderson has already been on the Talk pages with

7554:

This is to inform that any future edit warring in ArbCom pages —especially from established editors— will be dealt with firmly. --

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The community has spoken via the RfC: this council is rejected by the community. Does the ArbCom intend to dissolve the council? →

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resignations. Please stop implying that I did. This misperception is not a justification to make personal attacks on me. Regards, —

9439:

Shrug. Striking, in the interests of harmony - although this is an editor who believes that if we simply allow everyone to edit,

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Yeah? Policy or practice? Anyway, this is a Wiki - these things can change, and should do to reflect the wishes of the community.

2525:

I am really quite concerned about the implications of this. I've set up an RfC so that people can express their views. Please see

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Thank you for raising this Andy Walsh. I too am disappointed by the breakdown that has happened in the previous day or two (e.g.

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something on his own behalf? When he has done that, then specific points can be discussed, including the points you have raised.

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express dissent when one feels called upon to express it. Surely an RfC concerning the ACPD is one way to do that ... isn't it?

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for the sole reason that "ArbCom says so". Yet they are not pages created for the sole purpose of resolving intractable disputes

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would, before it can be implemented", so I don't see the ArbCom as deciding the future of the project, but rather the community.

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emails with Kirill discussing the matter, but had not reached a decision on joining by the time ArbCom made their announcement.

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membership – I don't see how a self-appointed star chamber of Arbcom's friends is somehow acceptable less than a month later. –

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Mattisse, while your code of conduct is bizzarre at the best of times, you seems to be currently behaving like a <removed --

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We can't make a volunteer do anything. We can only urge them to do some things and (try to) prevent them from doing others.

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so tragically happened, and I know how to spell it. I know you are not saying that the current state of Knowledge is akin to

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I shouldn't be editing content? Beyond offensive, and another display of what got you banned from the pages to begin with. --

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The question period started earlier today now, and there will be a series of watchlist and noticeboards announcements soon.--

4318:

Without sounding overly adversarial (I would like to reiterate that I support this idea in its entirety), I have a question.

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Sorry, but a consensus that the consensus system is broken just boggles my mind and I just can't accept that conclusion. :P

2624:

this severe lapse in judgment in some meaningful fashion, if indeed he believes it is. Where is the resignation tendered? —

1776:

There were a variety of factors, but I can assure you that their current or past relationship with you was not one of them.

1570:

I guess; but a discussion and a !vote would have been a starting point. Perhaps it's true that a proposal to establish this

438:

Aw, crap. It's been what, 48 hours? Less? And he's already breaking the terms? (re)Ban. Ban and delete his userspace and be

9809:

A reasonable proposal. The gatekeeper doesn't have to decide all the issues himself; he just needs the authority to impose

7543: 6888: 2508: 810: 659: 51: 17: 10304: 8510:"while awaiting; until" (dictionary US definition), which would mean that the condition (being appointed) was interim and 6904:

policy that for no good reason allows people to operate multiple accounts without full disclosure. (My second account is

6193:

Is there something else? If this is decided by motion instead of a case / normal channels, we'll probably never find out.

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Mattisse, please withdraw yourself from this discussion, because you've thus far accomplished nothing but hurt feelings.--

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restrictions, but as usual I'm the one under attack. Well fuck that. His thuggery should sicken people as it sickens me.

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I have hopes--probably in vain--that one day you will stop trolling and act like a semi-reasonable adult human being. →

420: 10888: 10854: 10794: 10759: 10678: 10607: 10571: 9534:(ec)My goodness—another departure from reality by an editor who cannot tolerate being shown having weakness. I didn't " 8803: 4705: 2911: 2876: 2643: 2483: 1810: 6414:

Next time, please send a note to the mailing lists, or even add one of those super-controversial watchlist notices. -

5208:

Wasn't Tiptoety not suppose to act as a clerk? He/she was to a certain level involved in the case, and even recused. —

1239:

community leadership. In my view, I hope that future members are promoted by accolade - not appointment or election.--

8238:. The current motion is a compromise as there is evidently a range of opinions on how this matter can be dealt with. 5009: 536: 234: 9470:

Regarding "...not supported by general consensus or by English usage;...". Hmmm; please note the following results:

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If that is the case and there is so much evidence, are you certain that a motion is the best way to approach this?

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An RfC is standard in the case. There is already one about the merits of the project. He could have waited it out.

1987:

And I echo the warning about 'self-importance'. They all start with an understanding that they are to only provide

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Obviously this Committee was formed with particular issues in mind that need addressing. What are some examples? --

7841:

something odd in point 1.4 - where it says '30 half hour' and '10 announcing it' - thought you'd like to know :-)

4082:

improve the way refs are embedded in wikicode). However, before I conclude this statement, I would like to renew

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1–Why now? Is this in response to any particular incident? 2–Why did the opposers oppose, if they wouldn't mind.

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trying to determine the future of the project. I've opened up an RfC for a community-wide discussion. Please see

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I realize that as an arbitrator you are entitled to police the arbitration pages. However, I think this comment

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Yes, that's definitely the plan at the moment, although we're not quite sure yet how exactly they'll be set up.

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who chooses to ask for it, and I would also like to thank ArbCom for the support implicit in their invitation.

2211:

The problem is that you chose the members in secret, and included yourself and your friends. That suggests you

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against himself from his talk page. I wish he would calm down and enjoy collaborating. It's getting too much.

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Any good publication needs a manual of style, and demoting MOSNUM to an essay does not seem at all wise to me.

6821:

Oh, and fourth, Geogre is desysopped anyway, so the exact wording of the motion doesn't matter terribly much.

5737:

My block log (which incidentally has no blocks for sockpuppetry) is wholly irrelevant to the issue of whether

5435:

Please note that Nishkid64 is another clerk. Also, I am sorry for all the needless silliness this has caused.

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Couldn't agree more. The current "consensus" model is irretrievably broken, wikipedia needs some new ideas. --

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Is it possible this council is given a less.... whats the word... pretentious title? "Advisory Group" perhaps.

9467:

I feel it is important to leave the above diatribe as a permanent reminder of Pmanderson's true agenda at WP.

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One very brief observation would be that ArbCom is not the U.S. Supreme Court and the council has no power.

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Any particular reason why? And if so, why was it intentionally omitted? That seems spectacularly unhelpful.

7105:

Being the biologist chap I am, I'm pretty sure that pith doesn't apply to bones, only to vascular plants. --

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and was generally adversarial. This is more of a round table for hammering out ideas, transparently, and is

2057:

I threw my hat in the ring last night via email, and your last sentence applies equally to my own status. →

286:

Yes, you assumed about right, combined with the assurances provided by the stringency of the restrictions.

7251:

Because in my experience and that of others emails to ArbCom fall into a black hole and never resurface. →

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Agreed, attempting to claim the motion isn't in effect is just wonkery. I don't think it needs re-signed. –

5276:

Honest mistake on Tiptoety's part. It doesn't invalidate the fact that motion #2 is now in effect, though.

6749:

And to make it worse, the sock puppet policy "Administrators using a second account in a forbidden manner

6153:

By following what link and when? LoverOfTheRussianQueen edited the Utgard Loki page yesterday, not today.

4357:

Granted on timing. If the outcome of the RfC does not change in a month, what does ArbCom intend to do? →

3939:

Your digression of hate above makes me unwilling to even read what you are stating now, so I wont bother.

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Appeals, clarifications and any other requests concerning this motion should be directed to the relevant

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The comment with the smiley that intentionally ignores the contribution by Krill is nothing but "mean".--

757:

I hope that this council will concentrate on project governance issues, not individual content disputes.

9359:

a handful of editors agreeing on something does not constitute a consensus, except in the thinnest sense

8718:

Exactly. But what was the decision here? Was Rlevse denying the other arbitrators their vacation? ;-)

2593:

Agree. You had what seemed like a good idea and people didn't agree. It's hardly a resignation issue. –

1524:

in the structure of the project; handing it down as an announcement on a notice board can't be right. --

7423: 5828: 4285: 4222: 4161: 3839:" He resigned because he thought that he is unfit for the job, not because he is "running and hiding". 3249: 3205: 3201:

Your take on this irrelevant. Two wrongs don't make a right. Set an example, don't hurl napalm back. --

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which anyone with at least a shred of familiarity with this case will know precisely to who (or is is

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properly conducted. At maximum, it would be nice to have another clerk sign off on the announcements.

5032:

Was all this new information considered by all the arbitrators before the final decisions were made?--

299:

I can only comment for me, but I felt that the restrictions were comprehensive and structured enough,

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That wasn’t what I was proposing. Mediation is a big, time-wasting, formal hassle. What I propose is

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Aye. Thank you for letting us know. In the past I have been loath to use sysop tools on these pages.

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Giano: some of us state very clearly exactly why we are doing something. I am one of those people. →

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The gatekeeper doesn't have to decide all the issues himself; he just needs the authority to impose

2718:. It is an indication of why you might not be a good nominee for membership on such a committee. — 8878: 8813:

Reading the latter page reminds me that this concept of a "recess" should be added there, and that

8067:. Can anyone think of another restriction that's been in place for so long without any violations? 7846: 7124: 7096: 5822: 4992: 4103: 3710: 3573: 3513: 3447: 3433: 3417: 3349: 2975: 2891: 2855: 2110: 1901:", if we're going to be selected for our opinions we should have a similar venue to put them up. -- 1015:

It is my hope that this group acts with energy and solicits input from a broad range of Wikipedians

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appears to be to permit self-appointed Language Reformers to yell "MOS breach! this article used

1079:

Just note, I expanded one of my comments above, I apparently was sleepy when I wrote it all out.--

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Does the reason matter, except inasmuch as it satisfies the curiosity of individual Wikipedians?

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blocked me without warning in 31 October 2007 for 24 hours. Please stop impugning me. Regards, —

2248:

I have to agree with Slim here. Given the kicking that was given out to Peter for proposing the

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give the impression one has not taken on board why the sanction was placed in the first place,

7474:

The consensus seems to be that 'what you need to do' is disruptive. Thus the motion passing. →

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I volunteer to be ArbCom's stand-in while they're gone. Address all your arbitration needs to

7696:

Could someone link to the behavior in question? I just searched around and couldn't find it.

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Mythdon: Your attitude on this page is entirely inappropriate. All users are entitled to make

2553:

I apologize to the community for the unfortunate situation that has resulted from my actions.

543:(specifically, the prohibition from "running automated scripts of whatever nature") by making 10869: 10833: 10367:.If anyone feels that another full Arbcom case is required, then the place to post is at the 10093: 10064: 9916:

Well, a lot of the regulars were absent, including both of us; that doubtless helped. ;-: -->

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Someone had to do something, 'cos right now this project is headed for Hell in a handcart. --

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did someone mention that the style anarchist Pam Anderson getting personal again at MOSNUM?

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Rlevse would have to answer that. But the decision is given in the text of the announcement

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Blah! I haven't even mentioned the details or been specific, so, a big whatever to you. :P

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Actually, I already knew about those policies with my comment above. I was just asking if

6244:

Ah Mattisse, fancy finding you here; what a pleasant surprise, to find you still with us.

5691:

has taken it upon himself to request this does it not show that the witch hunt continues?

2984:

You who baited Rlevse to resign the ArBCom should refrain from making such the nonsense.--

728:

are originally suggested by us, by the members of the group itself, or by other editors).

8: 10933: 10903: 10898:

a few minutes I will be filing a request to enforce the arbcom sanctions here. Thanks,

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If this is the main complaint in reaction to the announcement, then I'm not alarmed. :-)

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to the new advisory council, "oh ar, if I were going there, I wouldn't start from here".

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This case was not handled well. We've done a disservice to a long-standing contributor.

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Indeed, I never even knew these were going on until someone asked me if I had applied. –

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Ah yes, "leading a panel". Of course that's what elected officials do in Argentina. ;)

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With thirteen active arbitrators, less two abstentions, a majority is six. It passed.

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Thank you to the Committee for resolving this issue in a timely and conclusive manner.

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However, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that I am worthless to the project, as

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I have to agree, NE2: with overt irony or without, that comment is in very poor taste.

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concerned by the huge ratio of admins and Arbs to non-admins - hardly a cross section.

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CoM has just restored his comments comparing other editors (including me) with Nazis.

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Us pedants pick up on small things when there's nothing else to complain about ;). --

8082:

that it was about to pass, so there is no reason for anyone to believe you objected.

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Fortunately for you, they asked you prior to the close of the acceptance period =| –

6478:

Like Xeno, I didn't know about the elections until someone asked me if I'd applied.

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Never seen that page before! The "Wikimedia Board" section needs updating as well.

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who has the problem with those who disagree with him, instead of merely moving on?

5619:

Can you clarify please, the committee has presumably found that User:HobbieP was a

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representatives. Imposing leadership top down, from ArbCom, is not going to work.

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happened. I hope Kirill and Rlevse reconsider, but I can understand their reasons.

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Indeed? What is the "purpose of the various MOS's", in your own words? Their only

8416:

think what is intended is that they will be appointed once the condition is met.--

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fair on those who accepted the invitations. What I propose is that people discuss

2317:

Or someone else has the power to act on its recommendations. Who would that be? --

989:

Congratulations to all of the appointees. I have a couple comments and questions:

10040: 10017: 9986: 9918: 9814: 9751: 9682: 9652: 9638: 9589: 9521: 9490:...it is this sort of editor who made Carcharoth too unhappy to continue with MOS 9444: 9407: 9371: 9337:. (I'm for permitting both, myself.) Look for yourselves; I'm not making this up. 9284: 9251: 9179: 9161: 9141: 8819: 8681: 8669: 8451: 8392: 8300: 7911: 7877: 7749: 7735: 7713: 7701: 7672: 7651: 7604: 7600: 7525: 7449:

I wish this motion hadn't passed. It destroys quite a bit of what I need to do. —

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I am surprised that there is no motion to desysop him also. Geogre made mischief

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It's up to him, of course, but I hope and assume he'll feel better next morning.

3362:

Since my block log was brought up above, I have not been blocked for cause since

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raises the possibility that one has not indeed moved on from the original issue

7571:

Let me guess; any future edit warring will result in a block. Is that correct? —

6398:

WT:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 4#CheckUser and Oversight elections

444:"prohibited from operating bots or running automated scripts of whatever nature" 442:

with this mess, permanently. No chance of coming back. None. The restriction is

50:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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gotten worse and I'm certainly not the only one who has been subjected to it.

9160:, also compiled in the last 24 hours, as an example of what I can do for MOS. 7286:

I find E-mails to arbcom are very swiftly seized upon, anyay I hope this edit

5679:

of occasions for uncivil behaviour concerning his editing. As the saying goes

3880:. Had you already measured your red robes, Ottawa? 19:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 2499:

to rescue us, whether we want to be rescued or not. And whatever happened to

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of peace and tranquility and awfully civil, good-faith discussion. Check out

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Sometime last month, I noticed checkuser and oversight weren't mentioned at

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Perhaps it was the Knowledge Review thread on this matter that began July 1

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Militaries use to shoot people for such desertions and not give them awards.

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Except that I was not the person who suggested that I should be a member; I

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is the work of six editors, and long though it is, MOSNUM doesn't contain

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Fixed it. Translation error when converting the Arb's links to fullurl's.

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But wouldn't the baker have to remember before finishing the final touch? —

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I am actually curious as to why he wasn't placed on the Twinkle blacklist.

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Thanks; I'll have to go read about abstentions being subtractive. Cheers,

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Also note they haven't edited since the motions passed. What's the rush? –

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together by ArbCom to discuss the overall direction of the project has no

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I don't think someone who resigns at the drop of a hat is fit for ArbCom!

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With deep astonishment, I find myself in complete agreement with Giano. →

10528: 10474: 10445: 10376: 10211: 9947: 9903: 9795: 9730: 9702: 9671: 9616: 9568: 9495: 9270: 9222: 9088: 8924: 8897: 8476: 8131: 8117: 8083: 7941:, I see 12 active arbs and 6 out of 12 isn't a majority, either. Cheers, 7896: 7765: 7029: 6957:"one user was able to find the disclosures in about 5 minutes of looking" 6704: 6552: 6369: 5805: 4954: 4413: 4018: 3964: 3793: 3654: 3023: 2825: 2752: 2610: 2580: 2093: 2024: 1240: 1175: 1139: 1080: 1020: 179: 141: 8706:

For some time now, all official AC decisions have been decided by vote.

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MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details#August checkuser and oversight election

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I didn't think anyone would take that seriously. Missing emoticon ;-)

3069:

That personal comment is completely uncalled for and arguably untrue. --

176:

I put a link on the main case page underneath the decision in question.

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Yes, effective the time of the close of the decision and its posting.

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Arbitration Committee motion regarding Aitias administrator permissions

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And also, given the disruption, can you please topic ban Melonite from

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Knowledge talk:Arbitration Role of Jimmy Wales in the English Knowledge

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I propose that there be a gate keeper on MOSNUM. There were some nice

9567:(do I need to add more text as to the outcome of those discussions?). 5769:

loophole, if it is one, has been closed with a specific warning about

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Knowledge:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development

2217:

Knowledge:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development

679:

Knowledge:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development

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As you will see, the discussion, Noetica aside, is also contrary to

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such an account. This motion is minimal handling and disclosure. —

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Would the Arbs who opposed or abstained mind noting why they did so?

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page. As to the posts on ChildofMidnight's talk page, just remember

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consequences in terms of other editors disrupting the Obama pages.

9473:

Google search of "nineteenth-century" results in 13,500,000 matches.

8577:" with a cymbal crash and out pops an "identified to WMF" template. 2305:

If it has "zero power", then all it will be able achieve is zero. --

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Yes, to me it means "awaiting". I see no problem with the wording.

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Announcement: Results of Checkuser/Oversight elections, August 2009

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Appeals to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee: Melonite & Geologician

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This is said to be drawn from the from the original announcement:

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opinions tend to be ignored more often than not, in my experience.)

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arbitration requests and jump early in attempts to defuse disputes?

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though some arbitrators — including myself — found it unconvincing

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Are these council discussion sessions going to be held in public?

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Per Arbcom's request, the referees in the discussion arising from

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what happened twice before (and can be forensically inspected on

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Appeals to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee: Keeblesound and Arindamp

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except I suppose to keep these editors too busy to edit content.

6273:

No! I have already read above from one of your colleagues that "

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Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria

3586:

Agreed. I didn't think he was serious...or at least hoping not.

2773:

Agree with above, there is no need for you to resign over this.

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have made a determination of consensus, which we have listed at

9917:

But as long as it has the usual tag, protection will work too.

6753:

be summarily de-sysopped" was only changed the other day from "

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I'm in a similar boat as Xeno; I found out about this election

5380:

The closing clerk doesn't change the way the cookie crumbled. –

4879:

Appeals to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee: Aarandir & Anonimu

978:

plus I get to throw stones at people I like then... always fun!

8573:

accent...."...appoints the following editors as checkusers....

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And before anyone accuses me of having dragged it up again...

6654:: Jimbo is a subscriber to arbcom-l. Can't help you WRT 2... 5988:

account to fan the flames when I tried to edit and comment on

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tag that was placed on the sock's user page by an arbitrator.

4187:? Or even the proposals for solutions? That is the key issue. 965:

wikis to ensure some good old fashioned wiki-transparency :-)

446:. Twinkle is automated. No wikilawyering. Enough is enough. → 8059:

Just to be clear, this restriction was originally imposed in

2547:

I see. It's not quite what I'd hoped for; a pity, I suppose.

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theatre style and use an exaggerated east end/Leonard Sachs/

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inappropriate use of alternate accounts will be identified.

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In regards to the second proposal by Nja247, we usually use

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the objections they have to the idea of an advisory council

9629:

Agree with Nathan. And one point for Pmanderson - he said:

9476:

Google search of "19th-century" returns 73,400,000 matches.

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on that page and how you found your way there 5 days after

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Understood and point well taken. Thanks for your reply. --

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further ArbCom page edit warring will result in a block. —

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Motion amending Ryulong Arbitration case regarding Mythdon

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Only once all the pith has been extracted, it would seem.

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Publication of half-year summary of arbitration activities

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political games are all utterly worthless, in my opinion.

3002:

if it isn't there's no need for resignations over this.

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This is a temporary notice while waiting for a formal one

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General comment about the Geogre announcement and motion.

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Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science amended

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to battle and fight and carry on like a petulant politico

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assuming for himself. It's getting to be a bit too much.

9479:

WP search of "nineteenth-century" returns 3,911 matches.

8524:

the person might be a factor in deciphering the meaning.

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but I don't yet know how technically feasible that is.

6536:

I have requested a watchlist notice for the election at

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I don't really get much point of the motions. Utgard is

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actions on that specific article, merits a topic ban of

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and myself have both had disagreements over the article

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and an entourage of rubber stamps? Why didn't he recuse?

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Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Case/ADHD#Final_decision

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which come under the purview of the Arbitration process

9492:" is beneath contempt, and is bordering on actionable. 9269:" recently—prior to a certain event a day or two ago. 7730:. I thought it was on one of the current case pages. 5237:, and clerks please see my mailing list post. Cheers, 4098:

which is finishing my PhD thesis due this December).

6979:. After all, it's not like Geogre didn't know how to 5056:

In regards to your proposals, the first one is about

4809:

Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Midnight Syndicate

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since the unban... once. Discretion may be key here.

120:

Knowledge:Centralized discussion/Macedonia/consensus‎

9969:-related drama? Surely you have the wrong man.... -- 9443:, and who has dishonestly represented my edit here. 6757:

be summarily de-syssopped" as a result of this case.

6121:? I'll ask Sandstein if he wants to follow this up. 5998:

Knowledge:Featured article review/Restoration comedy

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and therefore placing a topic ban on myself and not

206:

Provisional suspension of community ban: Betacommand

10163:sideline antagonist, so maybe I can be Axis Sally. 9538:" (this is a consensus-driven project, and I don't 7603:if you want to find out more about how this works. 5008:, with added comments to Stephen Bain's proposals, 2886:disagree with it, you should consider leaving, no? 1293:I opposed the proposal because, in my view, it was 8845:This looks like "Arbitration Committee Vacation". 7119:or even 2. as a trans verb - or, Beauty is Truth. 7077:. When can we agree to stop savaging a dead bone? 2117:, I don't see what use it has for a "think tank". 525:I agree with Roux. Accordingly, I have re-blocked 9854:I've filed a Request for Arbitration Enforcement 9742:If you promised not to go near it if the RfC was 9030:Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking 6566:Motion to establish secondary ArbCom mailing list 5355:Should I wait a few days, and see what happens? — 4250:absense of any other leadership in the community. 551:, an automated script. I will cross-post this to 10029:re-imposing the year-long MOS ban for Pmanderson 8514:when the condition (being identified) was met.-- 5659:I believe that a request of a topic ban by user 4903:New rules for inactivity on internal resolutions 1912:You are quite right. I will propose that below. 673:Advisory Council on Project Development convened 8294:appeals are not free of consequences. See what 5687:I would find wholly unfair, the very fact that 2822:I don't need this totally thankless job either. 2384:such a council would do, and how it would work 1991:but that (always) quickly turns to a belief in 138:otherwise, the outcome may then be implemented. 8046:Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Everyking 3 6652:Knowledge:RFARB#Jimbo Wales' block of Bishonen 9858:, with regrets, per Nathan's advice above. -- 9536:determine grammatical issues by Google search 8354:commons:Commons:Checkusers/Requests/SB Johnny 7524:And has been archived at the case talk page. 7369:This aspect of the discussion is now closed. 7201:This aspect of the discussion is now closed. 4866:Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine 4852:Ban Appeal Sub Committee - amending procedure 10129:ignore these vicious smears and distortions. 9117:Andy Walsh misstates what I said, which was 8980:I'm not sure I agree with the unblocking of 8450:community and their fellow arbitrators! :-) 8236:(I sincerely hope I am wrong on that one EK) 6612:m:Mailing list#Removing emails from archives 6021:, as well as disparage me in edit summaries. 4940:Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse 3412:the community) and suitable for withdrawal. 10307:with the temerity to call a spade a spade. 9615:. Please don't continue your dispute here. 9482:WP search of "19th-century" returns 10,204. 6074:else worrying these conscientious editors? 4891:Changes of account name by restricted users 4824:Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Ayn Rand 10205:(cleaned up stray bits of previous edits) 9047:, it's already started again. Despite his 7206:The following discussion has been closed. 5675:has in the past himself been blocked on a 5191:Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong 4927:Second draft of updated arbitration policy 2714:. You need not attack my motives. Please 867:WP:Advisory Council on Project Development 539:) indefinitely for failing to observe the 10148:page header? Or am I not on that list? 9488:true agenda that I pointed out. Lastly, " 9238:of editors? This current Crusade against 9218:...as an example of what I can do for MOS 7895:proceed, knowing what the decision was. 4752:Please see the section I started on this 10518: 9178:, so I can leave without abandoning it? 5446:Please don't ever let it happen again. — 5074:Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment 4505:I can't ride a horse to save my life :) 9053:snide remarks about regular MoS editors 7762:Tonight's edit warring was sad indeed. 7726:Thanks, sorry, I didn't realize it was 2090:Knowledge:Wikivoices#Our_next_Skypecast 1048:be limited to an agenda set by ArbCom. 367:provisions, and a case was rejected at 14: 9557:Querying "nineteenth-century painting" 8213:actually resulted in reduced sanctions 6014:calling me a troll and to ridicule me. 3876:It sounds like you were expecting the 2706:Please apologize for such a statement 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 10323:rather than a prescriptive rule). - 9174:And is somebody willing to take over 7187:Arbitration motion regarding Geogre 2 3687:intention behind the message at all. 3245:You're taking the piss aren't you? -- 2367:Where should discussion go from here? 10283: 10261: 9209:for PMAnderson's true agenda: e.g. " 9125:when did you stop beating your wife? 8672:during the eight days of no ArbCom. 5011:and two new proposals which I added 4771:Audit Subcommittee: personnel change 894:Item 2. Plot the overthrow of arbcom 29: 18:Knowledge talk:Arbitration Committee 9127:and irrelevant tp the issue at hand 9057:calling others' opinions irrelevant 8609:Reduced activity: 23–31 August 2009 7929:Hmm... It doesn't seem to actually 7746:"What happened tonight is finished" 7016:"risk being summarily de-sysopped" 6969:), and rebuffs to questions asked ( 6691:Arbitration motion regarding Geogre 6650:WRT 1, almost certainly because of 1816:As far as your specific questions: 27: 7012:"risk being summarily de-sysopped" 6614:for a (very) brief explanation. - 4915:Procedure for internal resolutions 1820:perhaps I'm overlooking something. 28: 10948: 10527:and the biography of its coiner, 9943:a peaceful and harmonious place! 8957:Motion regarding The Rambling Man 8692:What exactly was the vote for? - 6391:CheckUser and Oversight elections 5663:is unjustifiable. Merely because 4280:is going nowhere fast as well. - 9945:{{insane unbelievable emoticon}} 7290:Durova, don't you dare comment! 6719:n a timely and conclusive manner 2926: 2665:) 03:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC): --> 890:A nice cup of tea and a sit down 323:I, for one, will be watching. -- 33: 10928:long as they remain. Thanks, 10075:Obama articles: ChildofMidnight 8575:(drumroll.....................) 8201:knows exactly where he stands. 7074:Enough! This has become a bore 5252:I've just read and responded. — 2083:WikiVoices episode announcement 8550:Shouldn't it be "We pedants?" 6117:, and less than a month after 5076:for the committee to consider. 4597:"Review Committee performance" 3508:Franamax's denial of request. 3465:Noted and declined. Carry on. 2501:Knowledge is not a bureaucracy 13: 1: 9331:seriously and solemnly !voted 9028:Arbitration motion regarding 8815:Unexpected arbitrator absence 8808:internal rules and procedures 8063:and is now being extended to 8044:Arbitration motion regarding 7822:Arbitration motion regarding 5189:Arbitration motion regarding 5174:Arbitration motion regarding 4953:Arbitration motion regarding 4864:Arbitration motion regarding 4837:Arbitration motion regarding 4822:Arbitration motion regarding 4807:Arbitration motion regarding 3697:Champion of the Frozen Wastes 2644:Short Brigade Harvester Boris 329:Champion of the Frozen Wastes 9670:, not hyphens and ellipses. 9061:tendentious and inflammatory 8342:Make articles, not wikidrama 8299:would it actually be heard. 8296:I wrote at the motion itself 7544:Edit warring in ArbCom pages 6927:"I see that we have a vague 5749:from that specific article. 5285:Make articles, not wikidrama 4405:(formerly Sarcasticidealist) 555:for any further discussion. 492:restrictions he is under. → 7: 10938:15:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC) 10908:09:27, 31 August 2009 (UTC) 10893:20:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10874:19:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10859:19:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10838:18:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10814:07:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10799:06:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10779:06:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10764:06:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10744:06:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10724:05:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10697:06:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10683:06:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10646:05:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10627:05:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10612:05:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10591:05:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10576:04:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10555:04:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10515:Calling other parties Nazis 10503:04:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10483:04:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10468:04:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10454:03:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10439:03:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10423:04:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 10400:03:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 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(UTC) 9647:01:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 9624:23:33, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9598:15:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 9576:00:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 9530:23:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9503:23:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9453:23:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9435:22:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9416:22:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9402:22:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9380:15:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9333:a rule that nobody may use 9320:12:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9293:15:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 9278:06:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 9260:22:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9230:04:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9188:00:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9170:00:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 9150:23:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 9111:19:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 9096:18:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 9077:18:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 9022:01:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC) 9001:17:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8941:15:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 8932:13:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 8915:13:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 8906:04:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 8892:23:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 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8269:18:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8254:14:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8225:12:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8206:12:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8193:11:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 8178:Should Everyking really be 8156:16:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 8141:06:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 8126:04:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 8107:04:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 8092:03:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 8077:01:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC) 6900:I see that we have a vague 5069:Knowledge:article probation 4554:Another question for ArbCom 4061:A note on non-participation 3040:Ignore the irrelevant user. 10: 10953: 10337:(copied from my talk page) 9441:we will not be a community 8039:05:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7998:13:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC) 7973:07:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC) 7960:05:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC) 7946:04:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC) 7920:17:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7905:15:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7886:14:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7868:05:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7851:05:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7806:02:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7782:01:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7758:01:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7740:01:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7722:01:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7706:01:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7690:01:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7681:01:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7660:01:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7648:administrators noticeboard 7641:01:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7613:01:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7591:01:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7566:01:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7534:01:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC) 7520:17:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7503:16:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7491:15:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7469:15:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7430:08:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7382:20:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7364:20:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7343:20:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7322:18:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7300:18:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7282:18:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7268:18:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7247:18:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7236:17:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 7182:18:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC) 7140:01:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC) 7038:05:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC) 7023:05:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC) 7003:21:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC) 6993:14:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC) 6946:01:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC) 6917:01:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC) 6366:someone wants to file it. 6351:arbitration requests page. 6105:Sandstein mentioned above 4015:Well, you're whining now. 2252:– which would have had an 2115:dispute resolution process 676: 10920:Enforcement request filed 9199:prejudices of six editors 8426:No, it's not just you... 7136:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 7129:23:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 7112:23:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 7108:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 7101:23:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 7087:21:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6981:mark an alternate account 6959:- my response to that is 6896:20:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6880:20:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6871:19:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6850:14:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6835:14:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6817:14:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6798:14:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6783:14:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6770:14:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6745:13:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6726:11:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 6721:" — shameless hypocrisy. 6713:02:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC) 6685:10:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC) 6671:19:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 6642:19:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 6624:18:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 6606:07:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC) 6588:07:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC) 6561:14:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC) 6547:04:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 6532:03:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 6516:21:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6498:21:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6485:21:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6470:21:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6448:21:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6438:20:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6424:19:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6386:22:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6361:18:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6331:22:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6316:21:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6302:21:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6287:21:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6269:21:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6254:18:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6234:18:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6221:18:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6203:17:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6179:22:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6163:22:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6149:22:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6131:21:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6101:18:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6084:17:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6069:17:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6054:17:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6038:16:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 6006:For example, Geogre used 5971:18:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5946:16:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5929:16:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5919:16:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5915:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 5904:16:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5885:15:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5782:06:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 5759:17:52, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5725:16:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5698:16:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5653:15:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5634:15:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5603:04:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC) 5571:20:59, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5545:20:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5522:20:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5501:20:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5477:20:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5466:20:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5442:20:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5431:20:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5413:20:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5389:20:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5375:20:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5340:20:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5327:20:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5315:20:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5290:20:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5272:19:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5244:19:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5228:19:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5164:21:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5085:00:59, 20 July 2009 (UTC) 5042:23:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC) 5024:16:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 5000:00:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 4788:00:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC) 4766:11:30, 19 July 2009 (UTC) 4736:07:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC) 4710:21:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4658:10:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4644:08:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4630:07:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4609:06:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4585:23:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4549:12:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC) 4521:01:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC) 4501:09:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4486:09:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4451:07:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC) 4437:08:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4422:02:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC) 4408:21:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4390:21:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4374:20:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4353:20:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4338:20:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 4308:13:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4294:01:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4273:01:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4231:00:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4212:00:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4197:00:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4179:00:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4165:00:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 4153:23:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4139:23:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4121:21:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4108:21:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4049:21:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4035:21:00, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 4011:19:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3996:19:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3981:19:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3949:19:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3931:19:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3893:19:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3872:19:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3857:19:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3825:19:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3810:18:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3786:18:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3771:18:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3745:18:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3728:17:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3715:12:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3700:11:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3679:04:28, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3663:00:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3638:00:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3617:00:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3595:00:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3578:00:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3559:00:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3541:00:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3518:00:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3495:00:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3475:23:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 3452:23:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 3438:23:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 3422:23:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 3395:18:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3385:is highly inappropriate. 3380:00:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3354:00:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3339:00:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3310:00:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3284:00:28, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3253:00:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3237:00:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3209:00:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3181:00:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3160:00:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3131:00:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3110:00:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3077:00:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3061:00:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 3032:23:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 3016:22:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2992:22:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2980:22:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2966:22:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2949:22:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2936:22:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2916:22:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2896:22:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2881:22:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2860:22:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2842:22:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2815:22:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2791:22:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2761:22:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2747:22:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2732:22:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2699:22:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2676:22:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2652:21:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2638:21:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2619:21:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2605:21:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2589:21:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2574:21:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2558:21:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2538:17:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2513:21:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2505:Who then was a gentleman? 2488:19:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2458:12:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2441:10:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2418:16:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2402:09:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2345:20:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2327:20:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2313:18:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2300:17:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2268:17:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2250:Established Editors board 2228:17:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2195:17:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2169:16:51, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2146:16:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2131:07:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2104:What is this Council for? 2099:22:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 2074:05:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 2050:04:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 2033:21:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2019:20:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 2000:19:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1976:15:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1956:09:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1940:06:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1922:09:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1908:03:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1904:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 1884:12:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1867:09:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1848:04:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1833:03:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1800:03:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1781:00:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1772:23:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1742:01:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1705:16:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1671:01:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1642:01:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1615:00:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1588:01:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1554:23:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1534:23:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1515:23:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1502:23:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1478:01:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1463:00:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1453:As I've mentioned below, 1449:23:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1435:22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1420:22:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1400:22:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1384:22:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1363:22:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1338:21:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1326:19:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1308:03:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1279:00:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1269:00:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1253:That is/was my view too. 1249:00:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1226:21:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1203:21:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1184:21:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1163:18:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1148:14:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1126:04:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1110:00:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1089:00:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 1071:21:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1056:15:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1029:14:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 975:12:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 960:12:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 950:12:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 933:12:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 906:12:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 879:12:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 861:11:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 851:10:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 828:11:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 819:08:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 800:08:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 786:07:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 767:06:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 749:03:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 733:03:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 718:03:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 704:03:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 668:13:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 648:07:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 633:05:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 603:17:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 581:10:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 568:09:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 521:09:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 509:06:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 478:05:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 463:05:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 434:05:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 415:04:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 396:05:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 386:02:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 357:00:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC) 332:16:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 319:12:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC) 295:10:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 282:09:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 270:09:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 255:09:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 242:09:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 10369:requests for arbitration 9176:this effort at mediation 8008:ArbComOpenTasks template 7209:Please do not modify it. 6119:your account was created 5787:ArbCom motion re: Geogre 4092:policy development forum 2497:the man on a white horse 1811:draft arbitration policy 196:09:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC) 172:09:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC) 158:21:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC) 132:20:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC) 10365:Arbitration Enforcement 9698:Chicago Manual of Style 5958:to be heard in public. 3407:"tendered resignation"? 2656:<after conflict: --> 1993:advice (constitutional) 924:Patience, patience. ;-) 865:Suggest someone clicks 541:conditions of his unban 10536: 10181:after below caution - 9777:instability on MOSNUM. 9329:(the adjective), they 6093:LoverOfTheRussianQueen 5980:<edit conflict: --> 5671:in the past, and that 4748:Where to go from here? 4564: 4183:What is the consensus 1897:silence those not of " 10522: 10229:aided and abetted it. 10081:Original announcement 9894:WT:MOSNUM Archive 120 9791:WT:MOSNUM Archive 120 9203:six 'usual suspects' 9037:Original announcement 8563:We could write it in 8410:Grammatical pedantry. 8130:Excellent summation. 8053:Original announcement 7595:Mythdon, please read 7511:I see, it was public 6396:Earlier discussion: 6115:the edit you reverted 5681:it takes two to tango 5583:Original announcement 5198:Original announcement 5183:Original announcement 4962:Original announcement 4933:Original Announcement 4921:Original announcement 4909:Original announcement 4897:Original announcement 4800:Original announcement 4560: 685:Original announcement 677:Further information: 46:of past discussions. 10617:(comments removed - 7160:Amendment regarding 6891:that concerned you? 6107:ongoing edit warring 5860:ongoing edit warring 5233:Please see my reply 2543:Kirill's Resignation 419:P.S. I just noticed 10531:. Note the name of 10007:removed a complaint 8804:second policy draft 8371:Knowledge:Elections 8211:not have been made 6000:, on his talk page 5994:Augustan literature 5984:and then used his 4615:Governance question 4314:Question for ArbCom 3878:Spanish Inquisition 469:He has used Twinkle 10537: 9965:I was involved in 9794:proposing editor. 9619: 9586:nineteenth-century 9510:nineteenth-century 9421:I have done so. -- 9335:nineteenth-century 9240:nineteenth-century 9091: 8927: 8771: 8434: 8223: 8191: 7117:Archaically (No.6) 3776:give them awards. 3296:states. Regards, — 885:Suggested agenda: 690:Cool story, bro. — 110:ARBMAC2 Conclusion 10891: 10857: 10797: 10762: 10681: 10610: 10574: 10363:bring this up is 10297: 10296: 10276: 10275: 9925: 9830:<wakes up: --> 9821: 9758: 9689: 9659: 9617: 9596: 9528: 9451: 9414: 9378: 9291: 9258: 9186: 9168: 9148: 9134:; do let me know. 9089: 8925: 8764: 8570:The Good Old Days 8467: 8427: 8385: 8216: 8184: 7996: 7564: 7493: 7395: 7394: 7372: 7366: 7324: 7270: 7238: 6743: 6147: 5990:Buckingham Palace 5969: 5883: 5204:Tiptoety clerking 4708: 4406: 4376: 4340: 2914: 2879: 2716:assume good faith 2701: 2536: 2486: 2424:Failure to recuse 2302: 2226: 2144: 2076: 1703: 979: 605: 566: 511: 465: 107: 106: 58: 57: 52:current talk page 10944: 10882: 10848: 10788: 10753: 10672: 10666:"are like Nazis" 10601: 10565: 10284: 10262: 10020: 10015: 9946: 9921: 9887: 9869: 9864: 9817: 9754: 9748:had wide support 9734: 9705: 9685: 9674: 9655: 9592: 9572: 9524: 9520:- but we don't. 9499: 9447: 9432: 9427: 9410: 9399: 9394: 9374: 9287: 9274: 9254: 9226: 9182: 9164: 9156:Please see also 9144: 9074: 9069: 8998: 8861: 8855: 8849: 8675: 8659: 8640: 8554: 8462: 8378: 8374: 8361: 8338: 8035: 8029: 8023: 7986: 7957: 7864: 7802: 7796: 7790: 7780: 7777: 7637: 7631: 7625: 7587: 7581: 7575: 7561: 7558: 7489: 7487: 7480: 7465: 7459: 7453: 7426: 7420: 7416: 7370: 7362: 7360: 7353: 7320: 7318: 7311: 7266: 7264: 7257: 7234: 7232: 7225: 7211: 7198: 7197: 7137: 7109: 6942: 6937: 6884:Did you not see 6866: 6859: 6742: 6740: 6668: 6660: 6603: 6584: 6545: 6529: 6482: 6384: 6381: 6213: 6146: 6144: 6137: 6030: 5968: 5966: 5959: 5916: 5882: 5880: 5873: 5871: 5865: 5856: 5779: 5771:shared addresses 5722: 5695: 5567: 5561: 5555: 5497: 5491: 5485: 5474: 5462: 5456: 5450: 5439: 5409: 5403: 5397: 5371: 5365: 5359: 5324: 5311: 5305: 5299: 5281: 5268: 5262: 5256: 5241: 5224: 5218: 5212: 5083: 4997: 4989: 4986: 4733: 4699: 4641: 4577: 4569:powerful cabinet 4448: 4404: 4372: 4370: 4363: 4336: 4334: 4327: 4282:Peregrine Fisher 4219:Peregrine Fisher 4137: 4033: 4030: 3979: 3976: 3847: 3808: 3805: 3761: 3613: 3608: 3593: 3591: 3557: 3555: 3537: 3532: 3491: 3486: 3372: 3335: 3329: 3323: 3302: 3276: 3233: 3227: 3221: 3177: 3172: 3156: 3150: 3144: 3128: 3123: 3106: 3100: 3094: 3086:is on this site 3057: 3051: 3045: 3012: 3007: 2930: 2905: 2870: 2840: 2837: 2781: 2724: 2697: 2695: 2688: 2630: 2602: 2597: 2535: 2533: 2477: 2341: 2336: 2298: 2296: 2289: 2265: 2260: 2225: 2223: 2143: 2141: 2096: 2072: 2070: 2063: 1989:advice (opinion) 1905: 1764: 1702: 1700: 1412: 1124: 1102: 977: 798: 796: 776:the first time. 747: 745: 601: 599: 592: 578: 565: 563: 556: 507: 505: 498: 461: 459: 452: 382: 377: 292: 240: 237: 231: 226: 194: 191: 156: 153: 85: 60: 59: 37: 36: 30: 10952: 10951: 10947: 10946: 10945: 10943: 10942: 10941: 10922: 10716:ChildofMidnight 10689:ChildofMidnight 10638:ChildofMidnight 10517: 10495:ChildofMidnight 10460:ChildofMidnight 10415:ChildofMidnight 10235:ChildofMidnight 10178:Comment removed 10135:ChildofMidnight 10077: 10018: 10011: 9944: 9919:Septentrionalis 9881: 9867: 9860: 9815:Septentrionalis 9752:Septentrionalis 9732: 9703: 9683:Septentrionalis 9672: 9653:Septentrionalis 9590:Septentrionalis 9570: 9522:Septentrionalis 9497: 9445:Septentrionalis 9430: 9423: 9408:Septentrionalis 9397: 9390: 9372:Septentrionalis 9285:Septentrionalis 9272: 9252:Septentrionalis 9224: 9180:Septentrionalis 9162:Septentrionalis 9142:Septentrionalis 9072: 9065: 9033: 8996: 8971: 8959: 8859: 8853: 8847: 8673: 8670:User talk:Harej 8655: 8638: 8611: 8552: 8541:Scott Mac (Doc) 8516:Scott Mac (Doc) 8442:Scott Mac (Doc) 8418:Scott Mac (Doc) 8413: 8376: 8359:John Vandenberg 8357: 8345: 8334: 8323: 8049: 8033: 8027: 8021: 8010: 7953: 7862: 7831: 7800: 7794: 7788: 7775: 7763: 7635: 7629: 7623: 7585: 7579: 7573: 7556: 7546: 7483: 7476: 7463: 7457: 7451: 7438: 7424: 7418: 7414: 7400: 7356: 7349: 7314: 7307: 7260: 7253: 7228: 7221: 7207: 7189: 7165: 7135: 7107: 6940: 6935: 6906:User:Jehochman2 6864: 6857: 6738: 6693: 6664: 6656: 6599: 6582: 6568: 6543:John Vandenberg 6541: 6527: 6480: 6393: 6379: 6367: 6209: 6140: 6138: 6026: 5962: 5960: 5914: 5876: 5874: 5869: 5863: 5858:respect to the 5808: 5789: 5775: 5720: 5693: 5610: 5579: 5565: 5559: 5553: 5495: 5489: 5483: 5472: 5460: 5454: 5448: 5437: 5407: 5401: 5395: 5369: 5363: 5357: 5322: 5309: 5303: 5297: 5288: 5277: 5266: 5260: 5254: 5239: 5222: 5216: 5210: 5206: 5194: 5179: 5081:John Vandenberg 5079: 4993: 4987: 4984: 4972: 4958: 4943: 4929: 4917: 4905: 4893: 4881: 4869: 4854: 4842: 4827: 4812: 4796: 4773: 4750: 4729: 4637: 4617: 4573: 4556: 4444: 4366: 4359: 4330: 4323: 4316: 4135: 4090:and structured 4063: 4028: 4016: 3974: 3962: 3854: 3841: 3803: 3791: 3768: 3755: 3611: 3606: 3589: 3587: 3553: 3551: 3535: 3530: 3489: 3484: 3409: 3368: 3333: 3327: 3321: 3298: 3272: 3231: 3225: 3219: 3175: 3170: 3154: 3148: 3142: 3126: 3121: 3104: 3098: 3092: 3055: 3049: 3043: 3010: 3005: 2835: 2823: 2788: 2775: 2720: 2712:personal attack 2691: 2684: 2626: 2600: 2595: 2545: 2531: 2523: 2426: 2369: 2339: 2334: 2292: 2285: 2263: 2258: 2221: 2139: 2106: 2094: 2085: 2066: 2059: 1903: 1760: 1698: 1408: 1122:John Vandenberg 1120: 1098: 794: 792: 743: 741: 681: 675: 595: 588: 574: 559: 557: 501: 494: 455: 448: 380: 375: 288: 235: 229: 224: 221: 208: 189: 177: 151: 139: 112: 81: 34: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 10950: 10921: 10918: 10917: 10916: 10915: 10914: 10913: 10912: 10911: 10910: 10825: 10824: 10823: 10822: 10821: 10820: 10819: 10818: 10817: 10816: 10727: 10726: 10710: 10709: 10708: 10707: 10706: 10705: 10704: 10703: 10702: 10701: 10700: 10699: 10649: 10648: 10632: 10631: 10516: 10513: 10512: 10511: 10510: 10509: 10508: 10507: 10506: 10505: 10426: 10425: 10409: 10408: 10407: 10406: 10405: 10404: 10403: 10402: 10338: 10295: 10294: 10291: 10288: 10281: 10274: 10273: 10270: 10266: 10259: 10257: 10256: 10255: 10254: 10248: 10247: 10246: 10245: 10230: 10223: 10222: 10203: 10202: 10201: 10200: 10199: 10198: 10197: 10196: 10195: 10194: 10130: 10076: 10073: 10072: 10071: 9998: 9997: 9963: 9962: 9961: 9960: 9959: 9958: 9932: 9931: 9930: 9929: 9877: 9876: 9875: 9874: 9849: 9848: 9827: 9826: 9825: 9771: 9770: 9769: 9768: 9767: 9766: 9765: 9764: 9763: 9762: 9719: 9718: 9717: 9716: 9715: 9714: 9713: 9712: 9711: 9710: 9635:Staying mellow 9609: 9608: 9607: 9606: 9605: 9604: 9603: 9602: 9601: 9600: 9548: 9493: 9485: 9484: 9483: 9480: 9477: 9474: 9468: 9462: 9461: 9460: 9459: 9458: 9457: 9456: 9455: 9437: 9383: 9382: 9363: 9362: 9345: 9344: 9339: 9338: 9300: 9299: 9298: 9297: 9296: 9295: 9221: 9215: 9191: 9190: 9172: 9153: 9152: 9136: 9135: 9115: 9114: 9113: 9032: 9026: 9025: 9024: 8970: 8967: 8958: 8955: 8954: 8953: 8952: 8951: 8950: 8949: 8948: 8947: 8946: 8945: 8944: 8943: 8875:Dragons flight 8843: 8842: 8841: 8840: 8839: 8838: 8837: 8836: 8835: 8834: 8833: 8832: 8831: 8830: 8811: 8795: 8791: 8787: 8783: 8689: 8688: 8665: 8664: 8650: 8649: 8648: 8647: 8632: 8631: 8610: 8607: 8606: 8605: 8604: 8603: 8602: 8601: 8600: 8599: 8598: 8597: 8596: 8595: 8561: 8560: 8559: 8525: 8502: 8501: 8500: 8499: 8472: 8471: 8470: 8469: 8468: 8412: 8407: 8406: 8405: 8404: 8403: 8366: 8365: 8349: 8339: 8322: 8319: 8318: 8317: 8316: 8315: 8314: 8313: 8312: 8311: 8280: 8279: 8278: 8277: 8276: 8275: 8274: 8273: 8272: 8271: 8176: 8175: 8167: 8166: 8165: 8164: 8163: 8162: 8161: 8160: 8159: 8158: 8143: 8138: 8048: 8042: 8009: 8006: 8005: 8004: 8003: 8002: 8001: 8000: 7978: 7977: 7976: 7975: 7963: 7962: 7927: 7926: 7925: 7924: 7923: 7922: 7889: 7888: 7873: 7872: 7871: 7870: 7854: 7853: 7843:Privatemusings 7830: 7820: 7819: 7818: 7817: 7816: 7815: 7814: 7813: 7812: 7811: 7810: 7809: 7808: 7694: 7693: 7692: 7668: 7667: 7666: 7665: 7664: 7663: 7662: 7650:and not here. 7545: 7542: 7541: 7540: 7539: 7538: 7537: 7536: 7506: 7505: 7495: 7494: 7447: 7446: 7437: 7434: 7433: 7432: 7399: 7396: 7393: 7392: 7391: 7390: 7389: 7388: 7387: 7386: 7385: 7384: 7331: 7330: 7329: 7328: 7327: 7326: 7325: 7271: 7213: 7212: 7203: 7202: 7188: 7185: 7164: 7162:Obama articles 7158: 7157: 7156: 7155: 7154: 7153: 7152: 7151: 7150: 7149: 7148: 7147: 7146: 7145: 7144: 7143: 7142: 7121:LessHeard vanU 7093:LessHeard vanU 7065: 7064: 7063: 7062: 7061: 7060: 7059: 7058: 7057: 7056: 7055: 7054: 7053: 7052: 7051: 7050: 7049: 7048: 7047: 7046: 7045: 7044: 7043: 7042: 7041: 7040: 7007: 7006: 7005: 6954: 6953: 6952: 6951: 6950: 6949: 6948: 6830: 6827: 6819: 6812: 6809: 6731: 6730: 6729: 6728: 6692: 6689: 6688: 6687: 6676: 6675: 6674: 6673: 6645: 6644: 6631: 6630: 6629: 6628: 6627: 6626: 6591: 6590: 6567: 6564: 6523: 6522: 6521: 6520: 6519: 6518: 6475: 6474: 6473: 6472: 6451: 6450: 6441: 6440: 6392: 6389: 6346: 6345: 6344: 6343: 6342: 6341: 6340: 6339: 6338: 6337: 6336: 6335: 6334: 6333: 6242: 6241: 6240: 6239: 6238: 6237: 6236: 6191: 6190: 6189: 6188: 6187: 6186: 6185: 6184: 6183: 6182: 6181: 6003:and elsewhere. 5978: 5977: 5976: 5975: 5974: 5973: 5931: 5906: 5788: 5785: 5766: 5765: 5764: 5763: 5762: 5761: 5730: 5729: 5728: 5727: 5701: 5700: 5656: 5655: 5609: 5606: 5578: 5575: 5574: 5573: 5529: 5528: 5527: 5526: 5525: 5524: 5511: 5510: 5509: 5508: 5507: 5506: 5505: 5504: 5503: 5353: 5352: 5351: 5350: 5349: 5348: 5347: 5346: 5345: 5344: 5343: 5342: 5282: 5247: 5246: 5205: 5202: 5193: 5187: 5178: 5172: 5171: 5170: 5169: 5168: 5167: 5166: 5146: 5145: 5144: 5143: 5142: 5141: 5132: 5131: 5130: 5129: 5128: 5127: 5118: 5117: 5116: 5115: 5114: 5113: 5104: 5103: 5102: 5101: 5100: 5099: 5090: 5089: 5088: 5087: 5077: 5065: 5054: 5047: 5046: 5045: 5044: 5027: 5026: 4979: 4978: 4971: 4966: 4957: 4951: 4942: 4937: 4928: 4925: 4916: 4913: 4904: 4901: 4892: 4889: 4880: 4877: 4868: 4862: 4853: 4850: 4841: 4835: 4826: 4820: 4811: 4805: 4795: 4792: 4791: 4790: 4772: 4769: 4749: 4746: 4745: 4744: 4743: 4742: 4741: 4740: 4739: 4738: 4717: 4716: 4715: 4714: 4713: 4712: 4687: 4686: 4685: 4684: 4683: 4682: 4673: 4672: 4671: 4670: 4669: 4668: 4616: 4613: 4612: 4611: 4555: 4552: 4528: 4527: 4526: 4525: 4524: 4523: 4488: 4466: 4465: 4464: 4463: 4462: 4461: 4460: 4459: 4458: 4457: 4456: 4455: 4454: 4453: 4315: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4299: 4298: 4297: 4296: 4263: 4251: 4247: 4243: 4242: 4241: 4240: 4239: 4238: 4237: 4236: 4235: 4234: 4233: 4155: 4123: 4100:Dragons flight 4062: 4059: 4058: 4057: 4056: 4055: 4054: 4053: 4052: 4051: 3998: 3959: 3958: 3957: 3956: 3955: 3954: 3953: 3952: 3951: 3934: 3933: 3908: 3907: 3906: 3905: 3904: 3903: 3902: 3901: 3900: 3899: 3898: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3852: 3829: 3828: 3827: 3766: 3748: 3747: 3731: 3730: 3707:AlexandrDmitri 3684: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3649: 3648: 3647: 3646: 3645: 3644: 3643: 3642: 3641: 3640: 3624: 3623: 3622: 3621: 3620: 3619: 3598: 3597: 3581: 3580: 3570:LessHeard vanU 3562: 3561: 3544: 3543: 3521: 3520: 3510:LessHeard vanU 3498: 3497: 3478: 3477: 3457: 3456: 3455: 3454: 3444:LessHeard vanU 3430:Dragons flight 3414:LessHeard vanU 3408: 3405: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3397: 3382: 3364:LessHeard vanU 3357: 3356: 3346:LessHeard vanU 3341: 3313: 3312: 3287: 3286: 3266: 3265: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3255: 3240: 3239: 3212: 3211: 3192: 3191: 3190: 3189: 3188: 3187: 3186: 3185: 3184: 3183: 3163: 3162: 3134: 3133: 3113: 3112: 3080: 3079: 3064: 3063: 3035: 3034: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2994: 2972:Privatemusings 2951: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2918: 2888:Privatemusings 2852:Dragons flight 2847: 2846: 2845: 2844: 2802: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2786: 2771: 2770: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2749: 2704: 2703: 2702: 2544: 2541: 2522: 2519: 2517: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2451: 2430: 2425: 2422: 2421: 2420: 2368: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2347: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2187: 2183: 2174: 2173: 2172: 2171: 2149: 2148: 2111:project office 2105: 2102: 2084: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2003: 2002: 1984: 1983: 1959: 1958: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1924: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1887: 1886: 1877: 1873: 1850: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1821: 1814: 1803: 1802: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1718: 1717: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1709: 1708: 1707: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1664: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1646: 1645: 1644: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1597: 1596: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1539: 1538: 1537: 1536: 1518: 1517: 1489: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1403: 1402: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1365: 1341: 1340: 1329: 1328: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1271: 1229: 1228: 1210: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1187: 1186: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1133: 1132: 1131: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1114:This group is 1092: 1091: 1074: 1073: 1058: 1017: 1016: 1013: 1009: 1005: 1002: 998: 994: 987: 986: 985: 984: 983: 982: 981: 980: 967:Privatemusings 937: 936: 935: 925: 917: 916: 915: 914: 913: 912: 911: 910: 909: 908: 895: 892: 839: 838: 837: 836: 835: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 811:86.170.162.220 803: 802: 788: 770: 769: 752: 751: 736: 735: 725: 674: 671: 660:193.11.232.222 655: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 620: 619: 618: 617: 616: 615: 614: 613: 612: 611: 610: 609: 608: 607: 606: 401: 400: 399: 398: 364: 360: 359: 344: 343: 342: 341: 340: 339: 338: 337: 336: 335: 334: 217: 216: 207: 204: 203: 202: 201: 200: 199: 198: 111: 108: 105: 104: 99: 96: 91: 86: 79: 74: 69: 66: 56: 55: 38: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 10949: 10940: 10939: 10935: 10931: 10926: 10909: 10905: 10901: 10896: 10895: 10894: 10890: 10886: 10881: 10877: 10876: 10875: 10871: 10867: 10862: 10861: 10860: 10856: 10852: 10847: 10842: 10841: 10840: 10839: 10835: 10831: 10815: 10811: 10807: 10802: 10801: 10800: 10796: 10792: 10787: 10782: 10781: 10780: 10776: 10772: 10767: 10766: 10765: 10761: 10757: 10752: 10747: 10746: 10745: 10741: 10737: 10733: 10729: 10728: 10725: 10721: 10717: 10712: 10711: 10698: 10694: 10690: 10686: 10685: 10684: 10680: 10676: 10671: 10667: 10663: 10659: 10658: 10657:Kristallnacht 10653: 10652: 10651: 10650: 10647: 10643: 10639: 10634: 10633: 10630: 10628: 10624: 10620: 10615: 10614: 10613: 10609: 10605: 10600: 10595: 10594: 10593: 10592: 10588: 10584: 10579: 10578: 10577: 10573: 10569: 10564: 10559: 10558: 10557: 10556: 10552: 10548: 10543: 10541: 10534: 10530: 10526: 10521: 10504: 10500: 10496: 10491: 10486: 10485: 10484: 10480: 10476: 10471: 10470: 10469: 10465: 10461: 10457: 10456: 10455: 10451: 10447: 10443: 10442: 10441: 10440: 10436: 10432: 10424: 10420: 10416: 10411: 10410: 10401: 10397: 10393: 10388: 10387: 10386: 10382: 10378: 10374: 10370: 10366: 10361: 10360: 10359: 10355: 10351: 10346: 10342: 10339: 10336: 10335: 10334: 10330: 10326: 10321: 10320: 10319: 10318: 10314: 10310: 10306: 10302: 10292: 10289: 10286: 10285: 10282: 10279: 10271: 10267: 10264: 10263: 10260: 10252: 10251: 10250: 10249: 10244: 10240: 10236: 10231: 10227: 10226: 10225: 10224: 10221: 10217: 10213: 10208: 10207: 10206: 10193: 10192: 10188: 10184: 10180: 10176: 10175: 10174: 10170: 10166: 10161: 10160: 10159: 10155: 10151: 10146: 10145: 10144: 10140: 10136: 10131: 10127: 10126: 10125: 10121: 10117: 10112: 10108: 10106: 10102: 10101: 10100: 10099: 10095: 10091: 10085: 10083: 10082: 10070: 10066: 10062: 10057: 10053: 10052: 10051: 10050: 10046: 10042: 10038: 10034: 10030: 10025: 10024: 10021: 10016: 10014: 10008: 10004: 9996: 9992: 9988: 9983: 9982: 9981: 9980: 9976: 9972: 9968: 9957: 9953: 9949: 9942: 9938: 9937: 9936: 9935: 9934: 9933: 9928: 9924: 9920: 9915: 9914: 9913: 9909: 9905: 9901: 9900: 9895: 9891: 9885: 9880:Quoting PMA: 9879: 9878: 9873: 9870: 9865: 9863: 9857: 9853: 9852: 9851: 9850: 9847: 9843: 9839: 9836: 9834: 9828: 9824: 9820: 9816: 9812: 9808: 9807: 9806: 9805: 9801: 9797: 9792: 9787: 9785: 9778: 9773: 9772: 9761: 9757: 9753: 9749: 9745: 9741: 9740: 9739: 9736: 9735: 9727: 9726: 9725: 9724: 9723: 9722: 9721: 9720: 9709: 9706: 9699: 9694: 9693: 9692: 9688: 9684: 9680: 9679: 9678: 9675: 9669: 9664: 9663: 9662: 9658: 9654: 9650: 9649: 9648: 9644: 9640: 9636: 9632: 9628: 9627: 9626: 9625: 9622: 9620: 9614: 9599: 9595: 9591: 9587: 9583: 9579: 9578: 9577: 9574: 9573: 9566: 9562: 9558: 9554: 9549: 9546: 9541: 9537: 9533: 9532: 9531: 9527: 9523: 9519: 9515: 9511: 9506: 9505: 9504: 9501: 9500: 9494: 9491: 9486: 9481: 9478: 9475: 9472: 9471: 9469: 9466: 9465: 9464: 9463: 9454: 9450: 9446: 9442: 9438: 9436: 9433: 9428: 9426: 9419: 9418: 9417: 9413: 9409: 9405: 9404: 9403: 9400: 9395: 9393: 9387: 9386: 9385: 9384: 9381: 9377: 9373: 9370: 9365: 9364: 9360: 9356: 9351: 9347: 9346: 9341: 9340: 9336: 9332: 9328: 9324: 9323: 9322: 9321: 9317: 9313: 9309: 9304: 9294: 9290: 9286: 9281: 9280: 9279: 9276: 9275: 9268: 9263: 9262: 9261: 9257: 9253: 9249: 9245: 9241: 9237: 9234: 9233: 9232: 9231: 9228: 9227: 9219: 9213: 9208: 9204: 9200: 9196: 9189: 9185: 9181: 9177: 9173: 9171: 9167: 9163: 9159: 9155: 9154: 9151: 9147: 9143: 9138: 9137: 9132: 9128: 9126: 9123:is therefore 9122: 9116: 9112: 9108: 9104: 9099: 9098: 9097: 9094: 9092: 9086: 9081: 9080: 9079: 9078: 9075: 9070: 9068: 9062: 9058: 9054: 9050: 9046: 9040: 9039: 9038: 9031: 9023: 9019: 9016: 9013: 9009: 9005: 9004: 9003: 9002: 8999: 8993: 8990: 8987: 8983: 8982:Mrinal Pandey 8978: 8977: 8976: 8966: 8965: 8964: 8942: 8939: 8935: 8934: 8933: 8930: 8928: 8922: 8918: 8917: 8916: 8913: 8910:... what? — 8909: 8908: 8907: 8903: 8899: 8895: 8894: 8893: 8890: 8886: 8885: 8884: 8880: 8876: 8872: 8870:In Argentina 8869: 8868: 8867: 8866: 8862: 8856: 8850: 8829: 8825: 8821: 8816: 8812: 8809: 8805: 8801: 8796: 8792: 8788: 8784: 8781: 8776: 8775: 8774: 8770: 8767: 8761: 8760: 8759: 8755: 8751: 8747: 8746: 8745: 8742: 8739: 8735: 8731: 8730: 8729: 8725: 8721: 8717: 8716: 8715: 8712: 8709: 8705: 8704: 8703: 8699: 8695: 8691: 8690: 8687: 8683: 8679: 8671: 8667: 8666: 8663: 8660: 8658: 8652: 8651: 8646: 8643: 8636: 8635: 8634: 8633: 8630: 8627: 8626: 8620: 8619: 8618: 8617: 8616: 8594: 8590: 8587: 8584: 8580: 8576: 8572: 8571: 8566: 8562: 8558: 8555: 8549: 8548: 8547: 8546: 8545: 8542: 8538: 8537: 8536: 8533: 8530: 8526: 8522: 8521: 8520: 8517: 8513: 8508: 8507: 8506: 8505: 8504: 8503: 8498: 8495: 8492: 8488: 8487: 8486: 8482: 8478: 8473: 8466: 8461: 8457: 8453: 8448: 8447: 8446: 8443: 8439: 8438: 8437: 8433: 8430: 8425: 8424: 8423: 8422: 8419: 8411: 8402: 8398: 8394: 8390: 8389: 8388: 8383: 8379: 8372: 8368: 8367: 8364: 8360: 8355: 8350: 8348: 8343: 8337: 8332: 8331: 8330: 8329: 8328: 8310: 8306: 8302: 8297: 8293: 8288: 8287: 8286: 8285: 8284: 8283: 8282: 8281: 8270: 8266: 8262: 8257: 8256: 8255: 8251: 8248: 8245: 8241: 8237: 8233: 8228: 8227: 8226: 8222: 8219: 8214: 8209: 8208: 8207: 8204: 8199: 8198: 8197: 8196: 8195: 8194: 8190: 8187: 8181: 8173: 8172: 8171: 8157: 8153: 8149: 8144: 8142: 8139: 8137: 8136: 8132: 8129: 8128: 8127: 8123: 8119: 8115: 8110: 8109: 8108: 8104: 8100: 8095: 8094: 8093: 8089: 8085: 8080: 8079: 8078: 8074: 8070: 8066: 8062: 8058: 8057: 8056: 8055: 8054: 8047: 8041: 8040: 8036: 8030: 8024: 8017: 8016: 8015: 7999: 7994: 7990: 7984: 7983: 7982: 7981: 7980: 7979: 7974: 7971: 7970:Jack Merridew 7967: 7966: 7965: 7964: 7961: 7958: 7956: 7950: 7949: 7948: 7947: 7944: 7943:Jack Merridew 7940: 7936: 7932: 7921: 7917: 7913: 7908: 7907: 7906: 7902: 7898: 7893: 7892: 7891: 7890: 7887: 7883: 7879: 7875: 7874: 7869: 7866: 7865: 7858: 7857: 7856: 7855: 7852: 7848: 7844: 7840: 7839: 7838: 7837: 7836: 7829: 7825: 7807: 7803: 7797: 7791: 7785: 7784: 7783: 7778: 7772: 7771: 7769: 7761: 7760: 7759: 7755: 7751: 7747: 7743: 7742: 7741: 7737: 7733: 7729: 7725: 7724: 7723: 7719: 7715: 7711: 7709: 7708: 7707: 7703: 7699: 7695: 7691: 7688: 7684: 7683: 7682: 7678: 7674: 7669: 7661: 7657: 7653: 7649: 7644: 7643: 7642: 7638: 7632: 7626: 7620: 7616: 7615: 7614: 7610: 7606: 7602: 7598: 7594: 7593: 7592: 7588: 7582: 7576: 7570: 7569: 7568: 7567: 7563: 7559: 7552: 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4848: 4847: 4846:Original post 4840: 4834: 4833: 4832: 4831:Original post 4825: 4819: 4818: 4817: 4816:Original post 4810: 4804: 4802: 4801: 4789: 4786: 4782: 4781: 4780: 4779: 4778: 4768: 4767: 4763: 4759: 4755: 4737: 4734: 4732: 4725: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4721: 4720: 4719: 4718: 4711: 4707: 4703: 4698: 4693: 4692: 4691: 4690: 4689: 4688: 4679: 4678: 4677: 4676: 4675: 4674: 4666: 4661: 4660: 4659: 4655: 4651: 4647: 4646: 4645: 4642: 4640: 4634: 4633: 4632: 4631: 4627: 4623: 4610: 4606: 4602: 4598: 4594: 4589: 4588: 4587: 4586: 4582: 4578: 4576: 4570: 4563: 4559: 4551: 4550: 4547: 4543: 4539: 4534: 4522: 4518: 4515: 4512: 4508: 4504: 4503: 4502: 4498: 4494: 4489: 4487: 4483: 4479: 4475: 4470: 4469: 4468: 4467: 4452: 4449: 4447: 4440: 4439: 4438: 4434: 4430: 4425: 4424: 4423: 4419: 4415: 4411: 4410: 4409: 4402: 4398: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4387: 4383: 4378: 4377: 4375: 4371: 4369: 4364: 4362: 4356: 4355: 4354: 4351: 4348: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4339: 4335: 4333: 4328: 4326: 4319: 4309: 4306: 4301: 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2673: 2669: 2664: 2660: 2659:Joopercoopers 2655: 2654: 2653: 2649: 2645: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2635: 2631: 2629: 2622: 2621: 2620: 2616: 2612: 2608: 2607: 2606: 2603: 2598: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2586: 2582: 2577: 2576: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2562: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2556: 2551: 2548: 2540: 2539: 2534: 2528: 2518: 2515: 2514: 2510: 2506: 2502: 2498: 2489: 2485: 2481: 2476: 2471: 2470: 2469: 2468: 2461: 2460: 2459: 2456: 2452: 2449: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2438: 2434: 2433:24.18.142.245 2419: 2415: 2411: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2399: 2395: 2391: 2387: 2383: 2379: 2375: 2346: 2343: 2342: 2337: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2324: 2320: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2311: 2308: 2304: 2303: 2301: 2297: 2295: 2290: 2288: 2281: 2276: 2271: 2270: 2269: 2266: 2261: 2255: 2251: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2242: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2238: 2229: 2224: 2218: 2214: 2210: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2196: 2193: 2188: 2184: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2170: 2166: 2162: 2157: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2147: 2142: 2135: 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10177: 10086: 10080: 10078: 10055: 10036: 10026: 10012: 10005:and that he 9999: 9964: 9940: 9898: 9897: 9889: 9883: 9861: 9833:Quoi de neuf 9832: 9829: 9810: 9783: 9781: 9779: 9775: 9747: 9743: 9731: 9697: 9667: 9637:to the mix. 9630: 9610: 9585: 9581: 9569: 9552: 9547:Wikipedians. 9544: 9539: 9535: 9517: 9513: 9509: 9496: 9489: 9424: 9391: 9368: 9358: 9353: 9350:WP:CONSENSUS 9334: 9327:19th-century 9326: 9307: 9302: 9301: 9271: 9266: 9247: 9243: 9239: 9235: 9223: 9217: 9210: 9202: 9198: 9192: 9158:this section 9130: 9120: 9118: 9066: 9041: 9035: 9034: 9014: 8988: 8979: 8975:Announcement 8973: 8972: 8963:Announcement 8962: 8960: 8936:Ah! :-) — 8921:Mark Sanford 8844: 8780:motions page 8657:Roger Davies 8656: 8622: 8615:Announcement 8614: 8612: 8585: 8574: 8568: 8564: 8511: 8465:wikt:pending 8414: 8409: 8327:Announcement 8325: 8324: 8291: 8246: 8235: 8231: 8212: 8179: 8177: 8168: 8134: 8133: 8113: 8064: 8060: 8051: 8050: 8018: 8014:Announcement 8013: 8011: 7955:Roger Davies 7954: 7935:last version 7933:passed; the 7930: 7928: 7860: 7835:Announcement 7834: 7832: 7767: 7766: 7745: 7728:on this page 7727: 7618: 7553: 7548: 7547: 7484: 7477: 7448: 7443:Announcement 7441: 7413: 7404:Announcement 7402: 7401: 7357: 7350: 7315: 7308: 7275: 7261: 7254: 7229: 7222: 7208: 7193:Announcement 7192: 7190: 7176: 7173: 7169:Announcement 7168: 7166: 7133:Well met. -- 7015: 7011: 6956: 6933: 6885: 6862: 6861: 6824: 6823: 6806: 6805: 6776: 6754: 6750: 6718: 6697:Announcement 6696: 6694: 6665: 6657: 6635: 6601:Roger Davies 6600: 6580: 6572:Announcement 6571: 6569: 6550: 6535: 6524: 6503: 6491: 6465: 6459: 6431: 6413: 6402: 6395: 6394: 6371: 6370: 6364: 6350: 6347: 6274: 6226: 6210: 6172: 6141: 6111:your conduct 6106: 6042: 6041: 6027: 5979: 5963: 5952: 5939: 5909: 5877: 5849: 5843: 5837: 5831: 5825: 5819: 5813: 5803: 5798: 5793:Announcement 5792: 5790: 5777:Roger Davies 5776: 5767: 5746: 5742: 5738: 5680: 5676: 5618: 5614:Announcement 5613: 5611: 5587: 5582: 5580: 5530: 5515: 5481:Hopefully. — 5426: 5420: 5382: 5354: 5333: 5207: 5196: 5195: 5181: 5180: 5058:WP:CONSENSUS 4994: 4980: 4960: 4959: 4945: 4944: 4932: 4930: 4920: 4918: 4908: 4906: 4896: 4894: 4885:Announcement 4884: 4882: 4871: 4870: 4858:Announcement 4856: 4855: 4844: 4843: 4829: 4828: 4814: 4813: 4799: 4797: 4777:Announcement 4776: 4774: 4751: 4731:Roger Davies 4730: 4697:Bigtimepeace 4664: 4639:Roger Davies 4638: 4618: 4596: 4574: 4565: 4561: 4557: 4542:Slrubenstein 4537: 4529: 4513: 4473: 4446:Roger Davies 4445: 4367: 4360: 4331: 4324: 4320: 4317: 4269:Geometry guy 4267: 4259: 4255: 4184: 4130: 4117:Geometry guy 4115: 4096: 4087: 4080: 4076: 4072: 4068: 4064: 4020: 4019: 3966: 3965: 3918: 3843: 3836: 3835:mean then? " 3795: 3794: 3757: 3724:Geometry guy 3722: 3703: 3689: 3685: 3668: 3604: 3528: 3505: 3482: 3459: 3458: 3410: 3369: 3299: 3273: 3168: 3039: 3003: 3000: 2986: 2961: 2955: 2943: 2924: 2903:Bigtimepeace 2868:Bigtimepeace 2848: 2827: 2826: 2803: 2777: 2721: 2692: 2685: 2627: 2552: 2549: 2546: 2524: 2516: 2494: 2475:Bigtimepeace 2447: 2427: 2389: 2385: 2381: 2378:in principle 2377: 2373: 2370: 2332: 2293: 2286: 2279: 2274: 2253: 2212: 2155: 2119: 2107: 2086: 2067: 2060: 2044: 2041: 1964: 1960: 1936:Geometry guy 1934: 1930: 1928: 1761: 1606: 1575: 1571: 1490: 1454: 1409: 1369: 1355: 1294: 1261: 1236: 1115: 1099: 1045: 1041:broad issues 1040: 1018: 988: 840: 707: 689: 684: 682: 656: 596: 589: 576:Roger Davies 575: 560: 533: 515: 502: 495: 488: 483: 472: 456: 449: 443: 439: 373: 363:Enforcement: 311: 300: 290:Roger Davies 289: 275: 248: 218: 213:Announcement 212: 181: 180: 143: 142: 113: 82: 47: 41: 10866:Newyorkbrad 10830:Newyorkbrad 10731:weighed in. 10529:Mike Godwin 10210:sanctions. 10090:Grundle2600 10061:Newyorkbrad 9838:Ohconfucius 9813:mediation. 9216:Regarding " 9103:Newyorkbrad 8738:Paul August 8708:Paul August 8377:Luna Santin 8261:AdjustShift 7824:Jimbo Wales 7415:Master& 7374:Newyorkbrad 6936:Will Beback 6910:Peach Tower 6008:Utgard Loki 5986:Utgard Loki 5829:protections 5804:Given that 5621:meat puppet 4955:User:Coffee 4397:Steve Smith 4204:Ottava Rima 4171:Ottava Rima 4041:Ottava Rima 4003:Ottava Rima 3988:Ottava Rima 3941:Ottava Rima 3885:Ottava Rima 3864:Ottava Rima 3817:Ottava Rima 3778:Ottava Rima 3737:Ottava Rima 3607:Will Beback 3531:Will Beback 3485:Will Beback 3387:Ottava Rima 3006:Will Beback 2579:quitting.-- 2386:in practice 1470:Ottava Rima 1441:Ottava Rima 1318:Ottava Rima 1295:ultra vires 1195:Ottava Rima 527:Betacommand 376:Will Beback 40:This is an 22:Noticeboard 10662:Buchenwald 10041:Carcharoth 9987:Carcharoth 9923:PMAnderson 9886:mediation. 9862:Andy Walsh 9819:PMAnderson 9756:PMAnderson 9687:PMAnderson 9657:PMAnderson 9639:Carcharoth 9594:PMAnderson 9526:PMAnderson 9449:PMAnderson 9425:Andy Walsh 9412:PMAnderson 9392:Andy Walsh 9376:PMAnderson 9289:PMAnderson 9256:PMAnderson 9184:PMAnderson 9166:PMAnderson 9146:PMAnderson 9119:Noetica's 9067:Andy Walsh 8820:Carcharoth 8463:See also: 8452:Carcharoth 8393:Carcharoth 8301:Carcharoth 7912:InkSplotch 7878:InkSplotch 7750:Carcharoth 7714:Carcharoth 7673:Carcharoth 7652:Carcharoth 7605:Carcharoth 7526:Carcharoth 6985:Carcharoth 6739:SlimVirgin 6323:Carcharoth 6294:Carcharoth 6261:Carcharoth 6155:Carcharoth 6142:Sandstein 6123:Carcharoth 6024:Regards, — 6010:to defend 5964:Sandstein 5954:sua sponte 5878:Sandstein 5867:sockpuppet 5841:page moves 5751:MickMacNee 5716:MickMacNee 5712:MickMacNee 5689:MickMacNee 5685:MickMacNee 5673:MickMacNee 5665:MickMacNee 5661:MickMacNee 5645:MickMacNee 5626:MickMacNee 5595:Carcharoth 5593:. 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