1107:
of Kings, and Son of God according to
Kemetic, Hellenist, and Roman traditions -- the information we seek -- destroyed a long time ago. I say this not in jest but literally -- the Birth house of Cleopatra, "Mammsi of Cleopatra" was a structure at Armant that was decorated with reliefes and inscriptions forwarding the concept of Caesar(ion) as the Son of God -- that temple was destroyed in the mid 1860s, (right after men began to decipher heiroglyphs). It was used as fill to build a sugar factory. From this structure we would be able to learn volumes about Cleopatra, Caesar(ion) and their perspective -- but it is gone (and it's painful that the lost is so 'recent'--we just missed it). In 13 bc Octavian "destroyed over 2000 prophecies". The issue of Caesar(ion) litterally split the roman people, Vergil's Ecologue, and the Sybelene leaves weighed heavily on the minds of the populous. When Mark Anthony pledged loyalty to Caesar(ion) he destroyed the foundation of octavian's support. Octavian claims to be the adopted son of Julius Caesar, Mark Anthony's actions essentially made octavian illegitamate. THe issue even split the senate, fully 200 senators supported Mark Anthony, about 1/3. This issue rose to the level of the American Civil War -- it is amazing history is now this silent! Suetonius does record that Caesar(ion) "looked and walked just like his father" -- this may seem a minor detail -- BUT octavian has these coins with HIS image and the words "caesar augustus" and "divi filius". My point is if JR looks just like POPs, then the coin is purely propoganda -- a tribute penny. Upon his acension to the Earthly Throne, Caesar(ion) initiated a new dating system, beginning with his coronation (the year was set to "0"). Evidence of the use of this dating system is present on the Black Sea, a city Chronossus(sp) -- THe entire Mediterranean region was aware of this Caesar, King of Kings. That is why we are limited in what we will know about Cleopatra's Children. History is recorded by the "victor". "octavian" is supposed to be this great enlightened person who brought the transition from the pagan heathenish days of antiquity (bc) to our modern culture (ad). In all honesty, the way we in modern times view Mary and Jesus. That is the way people in the mediterranean viewd Cleopatra and Caesar(ion). --M.James
2455:
region it is stated in such a way that it implies that it wasnāt Greek. Further more the name
Cleopatra was used especially in the Greek and Hellenistic Royalty and not only in the Greek kingdom of Macedon. Read The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt. Bianchi, Robert Steven, et al. Cleopatraās Egypt: Age of the Ptolemies. Brooklyn, 1988. At the beginning of the article it is clearly stated that she was the daughter of Ptolemy XII (Ptolemy XII Neos Dionysos Philopator Philadelphos1 also known as Ptolemy Nothus and Ptolemy Auletes, ) and I considered it a repeated information. If you want you can add his father name as Ptolemy XII Auletes but as you can see his title is really big. Her title was "philopator" which means "Loves her father" but she also had several other titles such as "ĪøĪµĪ¬ Ī¦Ī¹Ī»ĪæĻĪ±ĻĻĻ" (Goddess Philopator) after 51BC. After 48BC, associated as senior ruler with her brother Ptolemy XIV her title became āthe Father-loving and Sibling-loving Godsā, āĪĪµĪæĪÆ Ī¦Ī¹Ī»ĪæĻĪ¬ĻĪæĻĪµĻ ĪŗĪ±Ī¹ Ī¦Ī¹Ī»Ī¬Ī“ĪµĪ»ĻĪæĪ¹ā In late 37 BC her title became āthe younger father-loving and country-loving goddessāĀ : āĪĪµĪ¬ ĪĪµĻĻĪĻĪ± Ī¦Ī¹Ī»ĪæĻĪ±ĻĻĻ ĪŗĪ±Ī¹ Ī¦Ī¹Ī»ĻĻĪ±ĻĻĪ¹Ļā, proclaimed "queen of kings" at the Donations of Alexandria autumn 34BC. It is not necessary to add all this information about her titles unless a short description is given in the beginning of the article! But the bottom line remains that Cleopatra is a known Greek name, not unique in Macedon and of course the title āPhilopatorā is also Greek which I also donāt see everywhere mentioned. Furthermore the information about the meaning of the name Cleopatra exists in the Cleopatra (disambiguation) page. A small expalnation can be added in this page also but certanly then Title āPhilopatorā was not a nickname. Thank you for your time (
927:
one will ever know whether she was a White
European or a woman of color. We'll never know. When dealing with a historic figure, where there are few and/or scattered records of ancestory, you give as many sides of as many arguments as possible, because more than likely there is no one truth. What are the arguments that would lead one to believe she was without a doubt White? What are the arguments that would lead one to believe otherwise? Gather the information, present both sides of the argument, step off of your holier-than-thou platform and shut the hell up. To say that the argument, which has been the primary reason anyone outside of scholarly circles has given a damn about the woman, is unimportant...is...REVISIONISM. It's one of the more contraversial, debate rousing arguments over a historic figure in the 19th Century, HOW CAN IT NOT BE HERE? And to just brush off it's importance like, "meh...we're into real facts...not Afro-American theory hardy hardy har." Is insulting, trivializing, demeaning and the primary reason Blacks go over the depictions of historic figures with a fine toothed comb, because Western historians like to pull this type of crap. "Oh, we know we're right. So there is no need to even mention that there was at some point a discussion on the subject...gafaw gafaw..." Jesus Christ...
2686:
resembling proof. She just tries to push her own theory that
Cleopatra was indeed murdered by Octavian. About the strongest point she manages to make is that the probability of three victims to die of three snake bites is low. But that alone does not constitute proof of murder. She also totally disregards that the snake expert in her 'documentary' gives an estimate of from 15 minutes to several hours for the cobra poison to lead to death. She does not even take into consideration that the message Cleopatra had delivered to Octavian could have been delayed (I don't think we even know the time of day this should have happened at) or that for whatever reasons Octavian might not have read it right away, therefore delaying the discovery of the three poisonned women. The mention of Isis could be seen as supporting both the suicide and murder case, obviously Cleopatra knew she was a goddess in the Egyptian pantheon and how powerful a symbol the cobra was in the Egyptian culture, so it could have seemed like a powerful symbol to use a cobra to commit suicide. Then comes the missing snake argument, unlike a dagger, a cobra is mobile and has a mind of its own, obviously I'm no expert on snakes, but even I know it could have left that particular room or the entire mausoleum on its own.
2478:" was pretty interesting: Philip II of Macedon, of course, is Alexander the Great's father, and the time span it is referring to is some 3 centuries before Cleopatra the queen herself. It would be very interesting, indeed, if her name had such old Greek/Macedonian cultural roots. In any case, I was unconvinced about your entire argument to begin with, and, in spite of all the Greek quoting I am still unconvinced. Especially about your very categorical distinction between Greek and Macedonian, and the dismissing of 'Macedonian' as being of a lesser category. Again, remember that Philip and Alexander were first of all Macedonian in their origins, and they were the real creators of Hellenistic culture and of the Hellenistic world. But, I am no specialist myself either in the language or in the region/period, and you seem quite adamant. So I guess there is no point in continuing quibbling with you. I'll have to let it be as you wish. Regards,
646:
that modern day egyptian represent the varying shades of the egyptians in the most ancient times we would conclude that only a small percentage of ancient egyptians would be considered black and would be from the fringes of southern upper ancient egypt,that is why there is even an arguement about the race of them because most do not pass as black and are called arabs by afrocentrics because most egyptians lack the phenotype of black people,also dont fall into the african origins afrocentric trap because we all have african origins that has been know for years im sure just as i do the ancient egyptians has african origins also but that dont mean they are black just as i am not black,so dont feed the afrocentric trolls--
1145:
ascribe to typical roman norms. He introduced "barbarians" to the senate -- that was not part of roman tradition. He made a golden statue of
Cleopatra as Venus Genetrix, and set it in a public place(very much roman tradition)! There is a Historian that records the name of the scribe who took down an order from Caesar that in effect would make it possible for him to marry wives, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROCURRING AN HEIR. That guy was murdered the same day Caesar was! J. Caesar traces his own descent in the Gens Julii back to Venus. Venus was the mother of the first king of Alba Longa in roman tradition. In his sister Julia's eulogy J. Caesar said:
579:
grand-grand- father all spent considerable time on the latter island. It would therefore be equally valid (or rather not valid) to have a
Cyprocentric fraction which claim that Cleopatra was partly Cypriotic. Thankfully enough, there is no such fraction. The early Ptolemaic empire also comprised Libanon, Israel/Palestine and cities in Asia Minor, and the Ptolemaic kings spent as much time there as south of Alexandria. I find it much more probable that any unknown mistress would be a Greek-speaking woman from Alexandria or any of the dozens of Ptolemaic Mediterranean strongholds than a native Egypt woman.--
1222:(Some of their stuff is reproductions, this looked to be "real"). My Username on the media site is "chiefio" (I'm working on getting the same thing here...) and the picture is PD-self and named "DSC_092420.MOD.JPG". (I'm also working on a better naming convention for pictures I uploadĀ ;-) The statue is in a very dark (black) stone. Perhaps that's part of the "Black Cleopatra" genisis... At any rate, if someone can find the picture of the statue and if it is found of merit, it might go well in the article. -E. M. Smith (chiefio) 2007-05-12
1697:
even the coin, may have been a slightly reworked die of her father's visage. As you read in the story Egypt was a dying dynasty, already over-run by Rome culturally and economically, if not yet militarily. They went through kings rapidly, Cleopatra killed her own sister, so it would have been a waste to build monuments to each person. They didn't care what she looked like, Julius and Mark Antony were more interested in her power, money and maybe her style. We only care about her looks because of the
Afrocentric/Hellenic debate.
1564:. Whether or not, say, Dan Brown is more widely read than Charles Dickens, I think most people, in general, would more expect to find an encyclopedia article on Dickens. But this is all irrelevant. The core biographies is project is a project, as far as I'm concerned, to identify fairly important people and improve articles on them. Given that the basic goal is to improve articles, I don't particularly see why it matters. Beyond that, what about moving the article? Cleopatra VII of Egypt is deeply unnecessary.
31:
628:, that view is about as wrong as it gets. The lineage of Cleopatra could be traced back to the generals of Alexander the Great with very few exceptions, those possibly being that her grand-mother may have been a concubine, very likely a Hellenistic woman in that case. The Ptolemies married incestously, which makes the genealogy far easier to trace, and every single one of her ancestors were thus Macedonian. There is an ounce of Persian blood coming in through the
2675:- Motive: Mary Anthony, & Cleopatra's children through Mary Anthony, plus maybe most important Cleopatraās son with Caesar. She was the treat to 'his' empire, she wanted control, she was a masterful controller too meaning: treat to his rule. Ptolemy expert Nicole Douek says, āThe child is the biggest threat of all because heās the direct descendant of Julius Caesar, who had no other children.ā Cleopatra & Caesarās son was later murdered by Octavian
612:
nations. It is also not clear to me that people even identified with "races" with the same perspective and loaded connotations that people do today. It seems that people identified more with their nationality than the color of their skin. Speaking on these terms, it seems to me that the
Ptolemys were indeed Greek, except for the last one (Cleopatra) -- because she felt she needed to prove her "Egyptianness" in order to gain credibility with her people.
1943:
cause has been recorded ā suicide by snakebite. Now, cold case criminal profiler Pat Brown and a team of experts that includes an underwater archaeologist and a toxicologist, are re-examining the circumstances of her alleged suicide. Using techniques of 21st century criminal investigations, they reconstruct the 2,000-year-old death scene (which is now submerged beneath
Alexandria harbor) and reveal the sinister power games that led to her death.
1801:"ETHINC THESPROTIAN" (the last two in case somebody says that Macedonia was not a city-state like Sparta, or some silly comment like that). Ancient Macedonia was greek at the Hellenistic times, even if by a miracle it is proven at some point that there was a Macedonian language that would have been extincted centuries ago at the time of Cleopatra. This cannot be disputed by anyone. Thank you.
152:
resonsiblity. However
Octavius probably would have killed Caesarion no matter how old he was as he was too much of a threat for Rome.The other kids, Alexander, Selene and Ptolmey were still quite young and Romans didn't like killing children if they didn't have to. The twins were no older then Octavius' own daughter, who was just a little girl at the time, so I can understand why spared them.
2400:
Dionysos Philopator Philadelphos1 also known as Ptolemy Nothus and Ptolemy Auletes, ). Cleopatra certainly did not have a nickname (philopator) but it was her formal name (to be more precise it was a title). Therefore I am removing that information. If the etymology of her name and title in Greek is needed then a new paragraph should be added which already exist in the page Cleopatra (
1102:
rome, they are never wed, never have any kids -- the history becomes too silent. Helios was engaged to Iotape; after octavian conquers Caesar(ion), she is given to one of Herod's sons -- that is one of the reasons I don't think he lived, another historian in the Jourrnal of Roman Studies ww.Tarn also notes that Helios was murdered and gives the political reasons for the necessity.
2441:."? Or to state so categorically that this is a Greek name, not Macedonian at all? What about the information that she was the third daughter of Ptolemy XII Auletes? Where else do you see this piece of information in the article? Thanks for any clarifications you can offer on your very categorical statements, totally dismissing the information that was there. Regards,
552:
groups (which you can't), they still probably wouldn't all have perfectly homogenous opinions about Cleopatra's racial background. I think we should revise the article to focus on the actual historical facts and different readings of those facts, without trying to make it into a battle between Egyptologists and Afrocentric historians.
216:
assasinations or revolts or them marrying other rivals to the throne. (The Dynasty's historie has examples of all of that). Both the written sources and the coins present both King and Queens as ruling. Cleopatra was as much a pharaoh as her three male co-rulers Ptolemy XIII, XIV and Ptolemy XIV Caesarion (Greek for little Caesar).
114:
that, when Ptolemy made a journey to Rome with Cleopatra. Shortly after arrangements for Roman assistance in Egypt, Ptolemy's followers assassinated Tryphaena and killed her guard. Berenice's guards in turn killed those followers. This left Cleopatra with her husband and younger brother, Ptolemy XIII, joint heirs to the throne."
134:
and Iullus. Octavius killed Caesarion and Antyllus, but let the others go, sending them all to live with Octavia. Why did he let the others go? Selene I could understand, she a girl and couldn't cause too much trouble. The two boys Antony had with Cleopatra, were both quite young and may have been let off... But why Iullus? --
2502:~Warshy, I think you're missing Seleukosa's point. "Cleopatra" and even "Ptolemy" were Greek names regardless of which city states of ancient Greece used them. So, whether Macedonian or Athenian or Corinthian - the names are still Greek, just like Philipos - hence the language used in all city states. ApplesnPeaches~
1148:"...Descended by her mother from Kings, and immortal gods, for the Marcii Rege go back to Ancus Marcius, and the Juliiā¦to Venus. Our stock therefore has at once the sanctity of Kings, whose power is supreme among mortal men, and the claim to reverence which belongs to the Gods who hold sway over Kings themselves. "
2669:
but that is highly unlikely because not every bite from the snake carries venom in it. The venom takes a good 2 hours to kill its victim. This would mean that from the time she sent the suicide note to Ocatvian & the time it took for the soldiers to get back to her she should have been found alive, not died.
2103:
handsome. An ugly king was looked down upon. Anyway, also considering the fact that egyptian art used cookie-cutter images of queens, any computer reconstructions would not be accurate, and probably very ugly. I doubt egyptologists have enough data to even attempt, and it would be foolish to try. -Pandora958
2681:- Ability: The men at his disposal itās very likely that both Plutarch and Cassius Dio got their accounts from Octavianās memoirs. Therefore he had the ability to influence written accounts. - Opportunity: He had control of the crime scene. The Queen was said by Romans to a only as a seductress, & diva.
2668:
Pr. Warrell: a poison expert. The Egyptian Cobra releases venom causing toxins to block transmition of nerve impulses. A progressive paralysis results. beginning with the eyes then the chest, & stomach. The person dies of suffocation. Dr. Warrell confirmed that 3 people could die of a snakebite,
2641:
1. Pr. El-Abbadi., said all the sources on her death at best are 2nd hand sources. The 2 most prominent, written a century after her death, are from Plutarch (wrote about it more then a 100 years later, Plutarch was not born until 75 years after Cleopatra's death.) & Cassius Dio. Bothsay she was
2454:
Thanks for your reply Warshy. The name Cleopatra is a Greek name. In every dictionary you will find it listed as a typical Greek name. It is NOT a unique Greek name from the kingdom of Macedon , or unique Athenian, or unique Spartan name. Although "ancient Macedonian" entails that it was from a Greek
2399:
I am deleting the paragraph as it has unnecessary and strange information. Cleopatra was not an āancient Macedonian nameā as it was not āancient Athenianā, or āancient Corinthian nameā! It is a Greek name. Further more the article already states that she was daughter of Ptolemy XII (Ptolemy XII Neos
2284:
So which one is right? Obviously someone has not checked their facts. I'm tempted to remove both until a date is actually known. If it is questionable, that is to say, if there is still an ongoing debate of the date, then it should state so clearly in both articles. Thoughts? If no one responds, then
2102:
It was customary for the image of a female ruler on a coin to be made to look ugly; this signified that she was a powerful ruler. For some reason, if the woman was portrayed as being beautiful it seemed to have detracted from her competency. Talk about sexist... kings were supposed to be physically
2004:
The coins in question were most likely clumsily re-worked images of Cleopatra's Father Ptolemy XI. Cleopatra was indeed ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait of
1696:
Not necessarily, the Romans wanted to remove her from history once she was dead, so may well have wrecked all the statues. Paintings, if made and hidden in a protected place, would have faded by now anyway. There are no court photographs, obviously, like we have for modern monarchs. As said above,
1348:
I'm removing the following passage: "From a recently found coin we may also conclude that Cleopatra was not beautiful at all, unlike the Cleopatra we see in films and pictures." I do so for these reasons: 1. "Beautiful" is a matter of opinion. 2. A profile on a coin is not an accurate depiction. 3.
1259:
For consisency, IMHO we should refer to Augustus as Octavian throughout the whole article. For starters, he was known as Octavian throughout the period discussed in the article I believe. More importantly, suddenly changing just confuses people who don't know the history that well. If you really need
1221:
Not exactly a picture, but I've just uploaded a picture of a statue of Cleopatra to the WIkimedia site. I'm new to all this, so I don't yet know how to point folks to it. The statue is at the Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum in San Jose and the placarding seemed to indicate it was a real "period" piece.
1144:
HERE IS THE KICKER -- ROMAN LAW DOES NOT DEFINE LIFE ON EARTH!!! Historian tend to make their assesments of Caesar's proposed action based on roman legal norms. Even if Romans did not accept him, the rest of the world did, he looked just like his father, how can you say he isn't his? Caesar did not
979:
IMO the issue is not whether Cleopatra was herself light skinned or dark skinned, but whether we can present the historical debate in an historically rigorous, consistent and informative way in the body of this article. To be blunt, I've never seen the "pro-African" side of the debate even presented
810:
one paragraph on the many questionable aspects of her "suicide" (in addition to an edited version of what already exists about her death in this article), to include especially that the primary accepted account of her death comes from Plutarch, having written it an entire century after her death, and
615:
I'm not a historian, and I'm sure someone will remind me of that (although I might as well be, since I have spent the last few years studying it extensively). However, I think it is wrong for any one race of people to try to "claim" Cleopatra as theirs. I think it is more accurate to simply remember
597:
personally, i thought the afrocentric view was misrepresented. i find it hard to believe that this dichotomy is the best wikipedia can do. and why is one "-centric" and the other "-ologist". the "ist" sounds like a legit ideology, while the other sounds like a subjective and wrong opinion. can we
578:
The article points out several reasons for disqualifying any serious afrocentric claims, and I have added a last: the Ptolemaic empire is often referred to as "Egypt": in fact it was an eastern Mediterranean state, with its centers in Alexandria, Libya and Cyprus. Cleopatra's father, grand-father and
435:
I'm not sure whether this is the right place for this, but I have a question. Why did Caesar Augustus (Octavian) kill Ceasarion but spare Cleopatra's children by Marc Antony? It seems to me that the children of Antony would be just as much of a threat to his power as another Caesar. Of course, none
133:
When Octavius invaded Egypt, where did he take the children captive? Were they all with Cleopatra and Mark Antony or were they all sent away and just ran into Octavius on the way? The children were Caesarion, Alexander Helios, Cleopatra Selene, Ptolemy Philadelphus and Mark Antony's two boys Antyllus
2948:
Octavian supposedly allowed Cleopatra a traditional burial to appease the Alexandrians. She was said to be interred with Antony, but the location of the tomb (and likely that of many other Ptolemaic monarchs) was lost over time. A popular theory is that the tomb sunk to the bottom of the Alexandrian
1942:
The Mysterious Death of Cleopatra tackles a cold case of regal proportions. Cleopatra inherited the throne of Egypt at age 17, before dodging assassination to rule for more than 20 years. Her life is filled with the enigmatic and the unexplainedā¦ as is her untimely death. For two millennia, only one
1919:
New evidence shows that she was not the suicidal type, and that it is believed the snake thing comes from the fact that cleopatra is often though as the incarnation of the god Isis. Isis was depictied with a cobra, which is one of the snakes thought to have been used. in alternative to a asp. Also a
1106:
The most reference to Cleopatra's children that will be found, are text asserting that Caesar(ion) was not the son of Caesar -- and that is as far into that as ANY sources I've found will go (and I look everywhere). THe reason is this was the ruling IMPERIAL FAMILY, Caesar(ion) was the crowned King
926:
I find this horrendously insulting. This is NOT a "non-debate." In history, there is NO SUCH THING as a non-debate. Just like there is no real proof that Cleopatra was Black, there is no debate-ending, oh-you-people-are-so-stupid proof that she wasn't. Due to having a concubine for a grandmother, no
908:
and his people's ethnicity, is Greek or a specific Mac. identity. It was concluded this article was on the life of Alexander, not on the language the Macedonians spoke, and so the question was ignored; after all there are articles that treat the problem in a more ample view. Doing the say, we should
842:
THE ARTICLE DOES NOT ASCRIBE HIM HIS PROPER TITLE, HE WAS KING OF KINGS!!! If he had to die for it, the least we can do is recognize it. Also the article says he was "ruler only in title" -- At Dendera in the releif of Cleopatra and Caesarion she stands BEHIND HIM. BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY evidence
782:
Yep, that page seems pretty rubbish, certainly as source material. However, some claims are mirrored in a more scholarly book: Johnathan Margolis' "O: The intimate history of the orgasm", 2003. p136. Here, he mentions that the greeks called Cleopatra the 'gaper', 'the ten-thousand-mouthed woman' and
611:
I have always felt the Afrocentric AND Eurocentric views surrounding Cleopatra are all ludicrous. It seems evident that during Classical times, there was a lot of intermarriage (not even including the various couplings between concubines, prostitutes, and slaves) between virtually all Mediterranean
2371:
This was, however, the first time Mark Antony is mentioned in the article, so if his relationship is being "renewed" when and how did it begin? Also, the article begins "In 42 BC," then abruptly stops, as if this section originally began discussing 42 BC when the relastionship first began but that
2129:
The coins in question were most likely clumsily re-worked images of Cleopatra's Father Ptolemy XII. Cleopatra was indeed ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait
1520:
is as important as actual importance to history. Personally, I think the number of core biographies is overly limited, and that we would be better off if we had a much larger number, but what can you do? At least Cleopatra is genuinely world famous, and unlike Helen of Troy, she actually existed.
1151:
Can a man feel this about his sister, and not feel at least the same (if not more) toward his own son? Julius Caesar did wish to make his son his heir, he demonstrated that when he made the statue of Cleopatra as Venus (it's implication is overt). Julius Caesar gave Caesar(ion) religious authority
1039:
Please correct your spelling, as I am uncertain about what you are referring to. The Macedonian ruling class in Egypt made a point of marrying within it a great deal, to the point where incest became the norm. There is admittedly no evidence of what race one of her grandparents was, but her parents
798:
While this debate goes on I saw something on tv. A woman mudder investigater found evcidence that may prove that Cleopatra did not attempt suicide. But was murdered by her guard under the orders of Alexander Ceaser himself. Although the investigatter herself believed at one point that Cleopatra did
758:
Message to Merovingian: I'll let your change stand (unless someone else wants the word "millions" added back), but FYI - Yes, millions of mummies. For centuries egyptian mummies were dug up en mass and used for FERTILIZER (yech), and in the late 19th early 20th (I think) it was done using powered
414:
married? And judging by both men's actions, neither one of thought a poor (or even a rich, for that matter) Roman citizen was "better" than Cleopatra--marrying her would have hardly been the only thing either one ever did on her account that risked the wrath of SPQR or put their political position
155:
Iullus, on the other hand, was fifteen. A few years older, he probably would have been killed too. Nonetheless, the two sons of Cleo and Antony died and no one knows why (It's unlikely Augustus killed them after sparing their lives). The only ones who really gained anything out of being spared were
113:
In 58 BC Cleopatra's older sister, Berenice IV seized power from her father. With the assistance of the Roman governor of Syria, Aulus Gabinius, Ptolemy XII overturned his eldest daughter in 55 BC and had her executed. Cleopatra's other older sister Tryphaena seized the Crown of Egypt shortly after
1411:
I found several instances of vandalism in this article tonight that were not reverted. I fixed those. I'm very tired now and am not able to proofread well so I may have missed others. Perhaps someone else can eyeball the article and see if any vandalism remains. The problem appears to be that some
1094:
She had three sons and one daughter, I believe. Caesarion, Julius Caesar's son; the twins Cleopatra Selene and Alexander Helios; and then her youngest, Ptolemy Philadelphus, the latter three being fathered by Marc Antony. Caesarion was murdered by Octavian, I believe the other three were raised by
1016:
First of all. i belive that cleopatra was a mixed race. ok theres no way in hell that she could not have one ouch of african blodd in her. her grand mother was african and her grandfather was greek. her mother and father were he broter. so there its it. it just goes to show you, yes eurpoen people
645:
it does not matter even if she had native egyptian mixture that dont mean shes black either falling into that arguement is falling into a common afrocentric trap and are basically concedeing that ancient egyptians were black folks,which of course when most scientist and egyptologist keep repeating
398:
I tried to tidy up a bit, based on what i know by heart. I'll try and investigate more. One thing I am sure: Cleopatra DID NOT marry either Caesar or Antony - they were Romans and like every other proud of it. In Ancient Rome, a poor Roman citizen was "better" than Cleopatra. Actually, they were a
2715:
I spent a couple of hours trolling through reputable sources, and not one of them mentions the "nine children" business; they all stick to the known offspring with Antony -- the twins, and Philadelphus. I also note that of the links given in the "Issue" sidebar -- to Caesarion, Alexander Helios,
2711:
It looks like this article was vandalized by a practical joker, as internal inconsistencies alerted me that Cleopatra (said early in the article to have had "four children, one by Caesar (Caesarion) and three by Antony (Cleopatra Selene II, Alexander Helios, and Ptolemy Philadelphus)") was rather
2245:
In the sentence, "Her unions with her brothers produced no children: it is possible that they were never consummated; in any case, they were not close", the phrase "they were not close" is not clear. Since the word "close" has several meanings that could be applied in this particular sentence, it
1472:
redirects here. Any reference to plain old "Cleopatra" is bound to refer to this Cleopatra. There are no Cleopatras who were monarchs of other countries than Egypt. This Cleopatra was more or less the only one to be fully ruler in her own right. And, um, it's stupid to not have our article on
1101:
Some historians say that Helios and Philadelphus were taken back to rome, but after that it gets murky, some historians say in the first year they 'died from the cold', others say they went to live with Selene and Juba II. I think all of this is false, because there is never a mention of them in
566:
On the contrary, I would say. We should not encourage the illusion that there is any serious debate. Afrocentrist considerations are certainly valid when it comes to classic Egyptian pharaohs, but there simply aren't any arguments to say that Cleopatra had any "black" ancestry. The debate goes no
1994:
I have heard that the Discovery Channel aired an image of Cleopatra that was a computer reconstruction. It was made from reconstructing the likeness from the various images of her on ancient coins and statues. I also read that Goddio's divers retrieved ancient coins which were used in a computer
1086:
I know Cleopatra had a child by the name of Caesarian, he was the son of Julius Caesar. Anyway, the whole reason I came to this article and talk page was because of the suicide versus homicide debate mentioned earlier on this talk page. One thing I knwo was that the debate was sparked off by the
802:
While this debate has only been fairly popular for about a year now, it is a significant matter that must be better addressed in this article. It was even used as a primary reason on why it should not become a featured article, and still the problem has not been covered in the many months since
1653:
manipulative and intelligent than she was beautiful, as if these two qualities can be compared in the first place, and while it may be fitting to mention her reputation for beauty, making an assertion one way or another seems unprovable. Also, this whole seems to have been intended to dodge the
1603:
This is probably a stupid question but I am confused... why do historians refer to her as Cleopatra VII? Wasn't she the only Cleopatra to ever actually hold the throne alone? I know other Cleopatras were wives of kings, but consorts aren't usually given a number (right?). I think I am missing
551:
I can see how this section of the article represents an important debate in the literature over Cleopatra... But don't you think we're making these categories of Egyptologists and Afrocentric historians a little too black and white? Even if you could separate historians cleanly into these two
370:
They were crucified -- the three theives (who stole roman territory). Because of the cultural and political implications of their names and families, none of them could have lived -- the would forever remain rallying points for revolt. Since they were all crowned Kings, they all had perceived
119:
What about the thing about her bathing in asses milk? I've read elsewhere that it's true (I think Nero's wife did it too?). It's one of the most common things quoted about Cleopatra - and it's a scene frequently seen in the films noted in the article - so it would be nice to include that in the
2689:
In the end, that entire 'documentary' is so full of speculation and unprofessional that it should not be considered a reliable source. At best one could add a single line saying something like: 'US Criminal Profiler Pat Brown (who is not even notorious enough to have her own wikipedia article)
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6. The snake story story might be borrowed from a myth surrounding Isis. Another, more poetic, is the symbolic power of the cobra as an emblem of pharaonic divinity ā an apt metaphor for her death in the coils of international politics. Either way, the snake would have been well up to the job.
2386:
I am confused by this article's account of Arsinoe's involvement in the civil war, when Cleopatra was briefly ousted by Pothinus & Co. According to what I've read, Arsinoe was helping Pothinus, and after Caesar and Cleopatra crushed the rebellion, she was exiled. This may be wrong, but I
1800:
Enough with this ethnic Macedonian and Macedonian-Greek thing. We are talking about the ancient times and not 20th century politics and whether there is a "Macedonian ethnicity" today, which has nothing to do with the ancient Macedon. Now, nobody says "ETHNIC SPARTAN" or "ETHNIC THESSALIAN" or
1373:
The coins in question were most likely clumsily re-worked images of Cleopatra's Father Ptolemy XI. Cleopatra was ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait of
1040:
were Macedonian in appearance so there's a very good chance that she was too. Secondly Egyptians of that era were semitic in origin and appearance. And thirdly if she was African in appearance then the Romans for one certainly never mentioned it. Cite your sources and prove your claims please.
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Not exactly.The Queens of the Ptolemaic dynasty were usualy siblings (and the rare niece), to their husbands and since they had rights to the throne (and ambitions) they acted as co-rulers. The male members of the dynasty apparently prefeared that to having them conspire against them, organise
1504:
What I would really like to know is by what process of assesment is her life considered to be a 'core' biography? Her role in history seems more akin to that of the fictitious Helen of Troy, and she hardly merits top consideration in her own right. If it had not been for Ceasar, Anthony and
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The article still contains inconsistent information on the number of Cleopatra's children. The introduction says "In all, Cleopatra had four children", which according to the "Nine children?!" section above appears to be correct. However, the section on Cleopatra and Marc Antony says "He and
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Just thought to add to this discussion in case someone else comes along and tries to alter the article based on that theory. This is based on a discovery channel (as far as I can tell, saw it on German TV) 'documentary' by Pat Brown a Criminal Profiler. At no point does she present anything
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of the nature of their relationship it must be of greater weight than speculation. Justy saying, she has written in stone her support of him, how can we conjecture otherwise? When he was a child he sat on her lap -- she depicted that too,why is the one acceptable and the other not?-M.James
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H..mm, yes; I've had a look at the 'core' list and have to confess that there are some people even I have never heard of! All very eclectic. But we are getting too far from the point. Surely 'most people' have heard of Rameses? Perhaps I have not yet understood the logic behind 'core'
838:"Cleopatra and Caesarion visited Rome between 46 BC and 44 BC and were present when Caesar was assassinated." Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought that it was Ptolemy XIV that accompanied her to Rome, not Caesarion. Anyone have some pages to back up either Little Caesarion or Ptolemy VIV?
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life because he was a child still (IE had not put on his manly gown). At the time of the then Gaius Octavius (Augustus) capture of Egypt, the children were all of certain ages. Caesarion and Antyllus were both seventeen. They were grown-ups in the Roman world, as many boys started to take
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some of the Egyptologist views may state incorrect information about the demographics of modern day Egypt being mostly not-African, while really (quoting from wikipedia 'ancient egypt' modern day Egyptians "reflect a mixture of European, Middle Eastern, and African." research needed.
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The article is still the target of unexplained and difficult to verify additions. I have changed her list of "three children" (which included four children) back to those verified by the online genealogy cited, and put a notice about the possible factual inaccuracy on the page. --
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and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one JESSICA to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much.
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mention that she was not actually physically attractive as we tend to think today, but she had a very charming personallity, she was a capturing speaker, very pleasant as a person and a character. I believe all debates on whether she used this or that beauty tip have no ground.
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Well, what can you do? My basic feeling is that "core biographies" should be of people that readers would expect to find biographies of in an encyclopedia, an issue which is generally easier to determine than who the "most important" people are, which is subjective.
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Warshy you did not understand my arguments. I did not categorical distinct Greek and ancient Macedonia. On the contrary. The ancient kingdom of macedon was a Greek kingdom! I only said that Cleopatra is a known Greek name and not a unique Macedonian Greek name.
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i would agree on a popular culture section, but not like this. Black Africa is below the Sahara desert. Bringing American culture to the article and putting it like this is not a good thing to do and missleades the reader. She is, above all, an historical figure.
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I've again reverted your additions concerning speculation about Cleopatra's suicide. Your edits failed to provide any sources for their claims. Note that a teleivision show is not normally considered a particularly reliable source. Also please note the warning:
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I want to thank you for being there and want to know if you people can helpme with my project that im doing on about Cleopatra.....what i need help is that i'm doinh an essay. But if you want to help can you give me some information.... Thank You, Larry Jackson
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the 'thick-lipped' due to having serviced a 100 roman soldiers orally in one evening, and a thousand men in all. Hence, there is something here scholarly and of note - if only that she was unusually highly sexed and that others (enemies?) used this against her.
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to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article
2391:, and I would trust her extensive research. Furthermore, this is not the only place I have seen this, though I can't think of where else off the top of my head. Somebody should look into this. It is very different than this article's account. -Pandora958
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This is a non-debate and a wound to historical truth due to politics. Either this section should be removed, or a section for intelligent design be added immediately to the evolution article. Double standards are hypocritical and do not forward scholarship.
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5. When the guards returned Queen Cleopatra was dead and there was no snake (mysterious). With any suicide there is always the body & the implement of death which in this case was not there, because the died person can removed the implement of death.
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This is all very true, but she was a foreign ruler of a foreign dynasty of an Egypt in decay. Who springs to mind when you think of the high noon of ancient Egypt? Surely Rameses the Great or even Akhenaten, not poor old Cleo, no matter how notorious!
410:(2003 edition; Cleopatra article) states quite clearly that Antony and Cleopatra did indeed get married, even going so far as to cite the political problems such a union caused an already-married Antony. Does anyone have any sources that state they
175:"Do we have to have teh word Greek popping up everywhere all the time? I man have you actually read the number of instances it appears unnecssarily - under photo tags etc., Cleopatra's hair in a Greek bun? I mean...c'mon. Knowledge is became a joke.
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Are you disputing that "Philopator" means "Loving her Father?" That sounds right to me, even if it is a title, not a nickname. Also, are you an Ancient Greek language specialist and Ancient Greece history specialist to dispute the statement that
674:, the cutoff is listed as Egypt's conquest by Alexander the Great. This seems like a problem to me, since the article is linking to one that considers itself unrelated. If you want to read about the history of Cleopatra's Egypt you have to go to
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that there are no known contemporary accounts of her death. Along with this should also be qualifiers appended to any other statement in the article relating to her death denoting that the "suicide" tale is only what is most commonly accepted.
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Cleopatra was not greek she was Macedonian. Macedonians and greeks have been in consistant battle even before Alexander the great of macedonia. Your right wikipedia has become a joke, a greek must have wrote cleopatra's article very biased.
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IMHO needs further explaination. What part of his behaviour? His marrying Cleoptra? The wars he was waging? What? I guess maybe it's explained better in the Antony article and perhaps eslewhere but IMHO it does need brief explaination here.
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How about you all just stick your foot in your mouth! Cleopatra was beautiful! (on the inside) I mean how are you supposed to know what she REALLY looked like... You can never be sure gosh! *sticks tongue out* Go scratch your cats butt for
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then. A single, off-handed remark about an alternate theory does not give it much credit, especially considering that there is more evidence to support it than the African-heritage argument that is addressed in more depth in this article.
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Cleopatra Selene II, Ptolemy Philadelphus, Tryphanea, Berenice, Ptolemy Philometor, Ptolemy Philopater, Antiochus, and Mithridates -- only the first four go to pages on children of Cleopatra. I'm removing the other children as spurious.
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I thought I'd point out that the article talks about Cleopatra dying from snakes in a fig basket, while popular art and media has her applying the snake to her bosom. This should be explained somehow as it makes the article inconsistent.
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Well what they had there was silly, but I would like to know if she dressed like a Greek or like an ancient Egyptian (which is how she is usually portrayed). I think that whole Pharaoh look with the sphynx like headdress is anachronistic.
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At literature: other The Royal Diaries: Cleopatra: Daughter of the Nile, Egypt, 57 B.C. by Kristiana Gregory (ficitionlized story of Cleopatra's childhood and _adolecense_) (adolescense is the correct spelling, I don't have an account)
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I don't believe that this needs to be in the Cleopatra article, whether or not historians were "relieved" about Caesar's sexuality does not seem to belong in an encylopedic entry on Cleopatra. It also doesn't feel very NPOV to me.
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The only Egyptian-born people who are "non-African" are those born east of Sinai (because geographically that's Asia). The Caucasian and racially mixed peoples of North Africa are no less African than black sub-Saharan Africans.
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Wow. Why don't you learn to speak English, and then do the project yourself. Do you honestly think that some random person is going to do it for you because you typed in a run-on sentence with terrible spelling that asks them to?
1481:, you'd have a revolt on your hands. I shouldn't have to provide any particular "compelling reason" to move the article beyond the fact that this is in line with "common naming" procedure. At the very least, it should be at
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Since I have no history with this article, having never been one of its contributors, perhaps one of you more familiar with it would prefer to make these edits - it's your choice, but something certainly needs to be done. --
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of Antony's kids succeeded at rising up against him later, but even so, if I had been Octavian, I think I would have been just as worried that one of them would seek vengeance for the death of their father. Just a thought.
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biographies, but Cleopatra seems a figure of little real significance-an historical epiphenomenon, if you like. What biographies most people would expect to find would, I suspect, be a list with very little weight indeed.
1485:. Note, though, that she was never called that at the time - it is a retrospective ordinal given by later historians (possibly incorrectly - as far as I can tell, there was no Cleopatra VI), and was not used by she herself.
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Why are there no pictures of what she actually looked like, according to the coins with her image? Even if the coin images are not perfectly accurate, they're much more so than the romanticized depictions that came later. ā
2088:). Greek sculpture was more realistic, but still weren't meant to be true-to-life portraits. So basically there's no way to know how Cleopatra really looked; we can only reconstruct the image presented to the public. ā
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Cleopatra was indeed ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait of Cleopatra, visit
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Cleopatra was indeed ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait of Cleopatra, visit
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The second and third paragraph of the section "Accession to the throne" should be rearranged; Tryphaena takes over and is assassinated without being identified (P2), then is identified and takes over the throne (P3).
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unlikely to have had TEN surviving children. And even more unlikely to have had nine of them with Antony -- all of whom "were spared and taken back to Rome" -- in the limited time Cleopatra and Antony had together!
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Cleopatra was ethnically Macedonian. And there are references that give us a good idea of what she really looked like. For a scholarly article (with references) about Caesar Augustus' Portrait of Cleopatra, visit
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Pointless even to comment on this, but anyway... Cleopatra was speaking Greek, her name is Greek, the historians of that time mention her as Greek (and, i guess, she considered herself as well), the Slavs of modern
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Well, I don't think she is truly beautiful,an article said in one of her coins it showed that she had a hook nose! and how could she kill her own brothers like wht sh e did! She's acting s bit like a wild animal!
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out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,
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believes Cleopatra may have been murdered by Octavian for political reasons'. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, no serious scholar seems to have attempted to debunk that supposed 'documentary'.--Caranorn
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In 42 BC, Four years later, in 37 BC, Antony visited Alexandria again en route to make war with the Parthians. He renewed his relationship with Cleopatra, and from this point on Alexandria would be his
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The article introduces Cleopatra as queen of ancient Egypt, which is true in the common meaning of ancient ("really old"), and (at least according to Knowledge) in the scholarly meaning of ancient (see
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The Romans were not at all fond of her and instituted a progaganda campaign against her during the Octavian/Marcus Antonius final split. If she had been black then they would surely have mentioned it.
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Ah, thanks for the heads-up Phil; makes perfect sense. I'm the guy who removed the Category from the page. Now I'm no Ptolemaic scholar (despite the resources on my site, the most germane of which is
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Yes I don't think Cleopatra and Mark Anthony would had christened one of their children "Mithridates" because this was the name of one of the enemies of Rome in Asia. Of course it's spurious data.
970:^ Romans incorporated many ethnicities and cultures into their empire. Including Greek, Egyptian, Etruscans, etc. Btw, Egyptians are Semitic related people, while Cleopatra was a Ptolemaic Greek.
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Sorry, newbie here. I don't really find the "what did Cleopatra look like?" section very useful, and I would suggest deletion - its source material doesn't back up the claim that Cleopatra was
2149:"Cleopatra and Caesarion visited Rome between 47 BC and 44 BC and were present when Caesar was assassinated on 15 March, 44 BC. Before or just after the assassination she returned to Egypt."
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Cleopatra had all in all four known children: Caesarion with Julius Caesar; the twins Alexander (Helios) and Cleopatra (Selene), and finally Ptolemy Philadelphus with Marcus Aurelius. The
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Yeah, the cheap, fuzzy waxwork picture of a naked woman (omg bewbs!) is not in very good taste, and I think it rather cheapens up the entire page. I vote that it be removed or replaced. --
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article that just redirects back here. i am removing said link. if this is wrong, please reverse -- and explain why. my best guess is that at one point these were two separate articles.
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It should just be Cleopatra. I doubt even specialists would use 'Cleopatra VII', other than in highly refined debate. Or, to be more correct, should we start refering to Shakespeare's
325:"Alexander was probably killed when the Romans, led by Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, invaded Egypt in 30 BC and his parents both killed themselves. There is no further mention of him."
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Cleopatra and Caesar were a better couple than Cleopatra and Mark Antony... I mean psh i would have died for Caesar not Mark antony... But Cleopatra is a big fat beeeeeeep! sonvm...
334:"Augustus Caesar took him (Ptolemy Philadelphus) and his sister Cleopatra Selene back to Rome as captives after their parents killed themselves (and their two brothers died) in 30 BC"
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in the Biographipcal summary on the side of the page under her photograph it says the date of death is November 30 BC. This is either incorrect or written in a confusing manner...
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cleopatra died of a venom posin of a snake Somebody put the scenes from the HBO series ROME into this entry. I don't know the history well enough to fix this. Can somebody help?
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for the moment, as I think that should be wholly uncontroversial. Then I might do an RM to move it to Cleopatra, depending on how I feel. But this will probably happen tomorrow.
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So there is no need at all to introduce any vagueness. Cleopatra's lineage is the best known in the entire ancient world and almost all of her ancestors were Macedonians royalties.
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A good article (and a very interesting picture of Cleopatra) based on new information from Roman and 19th century sources gives an idea of her ethnic background and appearance:
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A good article (and a very interesting picture of Cleopatra) based on new information from Roman and 19th century sources gives an idea of her ethnic background and appearance:
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A good article (and a very interesting picture of Cleopatra) based on new information from Roman and 19th century sources gives an idea of her ethnic background and appearance:
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A good article (and a very interesting picture of Cleopatra) based on new information from Roman and 19th century sources gives an idea of her ethnic background and appearance:
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earth moving equipment. Every Egyptian tried to be mummified. If he couldn't actually afford that, his family tried to bury them so the hot/dry sands would have the same effect.
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that Alexandria fell in August. Seems unlikely that Cleopatra would wait more than two months. The source cited in the suicide section here does not mention any date at all. ā
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A good article (and a very interesting picture of Cleopatra) based on new information from Roman and 19th century sources gives an idea of her ethnic background and appearance:
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The snakebite death story is only a legend, it should be menetion is unlikly she died by snake bite at all, Cleopatra's Death it believe to caused by Octivan, by some experts.
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Does the claim that Cleopatra had quote-African-unquote blood have any modicum of support? It's pure conjecture and I don't see any debate on the issue among serious scholars.
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her as an Egyptian of Greek (and possibly other) descent. Thinking in those terms, I think we can ALL be proud of her as a symbol of independence and revolutionary thought.
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7. It's not that a single cobra would not have had enough. "There's a misconception," says Professor Warrell, "that snakes can exhaust the supply of venom with one strike.
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4. Cleopatra would have had to feign an unusual appetite for figs in order to justify to Octavian's guards a basket big enough to conceal it. Or pitcher then a big snake.
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Jeeze, how could ol' Cleo be so inconsiderate? For info on why the image on a coin is not accurate, see COMPUTER RECONSTRUCTION OF WHAT CLEOPATRA LOOKED LIKE. -Pandora958
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movie about Cleopatra was CleĆ³patra SĆ©tima (Cleopatra the Seventh), directed and produced by Julio Bressane. Although the movie was presented, out of competition, in the
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made her look like them. hell look what they did to pochonist. she was white. but they mad her look that way. cleo was mixed ok. and she represtented her african part.
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in such a fashion in the first place, so I have my doubts. We should also recognize that it will become a lightning rod for revert wars and vandalism pretty quickly....
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but there should be some records about about "how the lady look like?"..... how is this possible that nobody has found ant ancient document about how she looked like??
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A good point. I've seen the coins, they don't even look like real human faces. That should have been these researcher's first clue that this was a waste of time.
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I know we've probably all heard that Cleopatra might have had red hair, but does anyone know of a credible source to give merit or denounce this popular thought?
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Traditional Egyptian sculptural style was to depict idealized faces of leaders with almost no relation to how they actually looked (with the notable exception of
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I'm removing the disputed notice because this dispute happened seven months ago, and the article seems fine, and if no one's going to voice further objections...
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section was cut. I couldn't find the old information in revisions, does anyone know what was removed? As it is now the article is confusing in this section. --
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imprisoned in her mausoleum on the day of her death, & that she met her end at the hands of a cobra. . .they do differ on how the snake was smuggled in.
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Asp is to painful of a death, and she was not likely to use it as a choice. Snakes also only inject venom 50% of the time, thus making it not reliable.
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2870:(look under Cleopatra VII) is probably the best online resource for the Ptolemies. This fact is by no means contested, it is well known. Best regards
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I think this section exists for the same reason that articles on crazy pseudoscience theories exist: to present the facts on well-known theories. ā
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because it does not attribute these hypotheses to any person (thus making them sound like the author's alone). They need to be attributed and then
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this section should not exist even the proper section states that it is a delusional theory.~Just keep to the facts not Afro-American theories. ---
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Recentally in the Month of september, on discovery the channel or history channel. A show premeired that put new light on the life of cleopatra.
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I thought it was silly when I saw it, too. Thanks for giving me a push to get rid of it; we don't really need to cover internet speculation. ā
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In the article it says she died on 30 November 30 BC. Is this right? I always thought she died on 12 August 30 BC. That's what's it says on the
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leaves confusion. One needs to know if they lived close to each other, had good relationships with each other, were genetically clse (??), etc.
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Considering Cleopatra VII of Egypt was her actual name and title, is there any compelling reason why we should move it? Also considering just
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Why the hell is it that according to Knowledge Cleopatra killed herself 3 days before the battle of Actium? Knowledge is reporting that today
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The correct version is the going to Rome and raised by Octavia one. I dont know what happened to him afterwards. ] 12:37, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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If anyone disagrees with the deletion should explain me why. Revert with out the use of the talk page will cause another revert! Regards (
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You are quite right; and though what you have written is-or should be-blindingly obvious, the challenge to ignorance is never pointless.
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I believe Augustus murdered Cleopatra. Cleopatra had power, power Augustus wanted. He had the motive, he had the ability. He did it. --
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The list of people that the most people have heard of is not the same as the list of the people that most people would expect to find
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Some historians were relieved that it confirmed Caesar's interest in women, despite tales of his adventures in Bythinia and elsewhere
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I would agree that illustrating the article with coins of Cleopatra would be the most accurate way of presenting an accurate visage.
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If it were my work to do, I would certainly make an entire section devoted to the events surrounding her death. It should include
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i am not knowledgeable in this subject but i don't see a reason to have a link here (in the anthony and cleopatra section) to the
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generated image of Cleopatra. I have tried in vain to locate a pictures of this images. Does any one know where it can be found?
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My very thought. It does make both sides so extreme that they both look silly. Tho maybe the debate has really got so polarized?
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harbor with the majority of the royal quarters during a series of earthquakes centuries ago, but no one truly knows for certain.
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to change (AFAIK you don't), then this should be explained the first time it's done. E.g. Octavian, by now known as Augustus...
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315:"The three sons of Cleopatra with Antony were spared and taken back to Rome where they were reared by Antony's wife, Octavia."
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I was looking at the article and noticed that it completely avoids the subject of what happened to her body after she died.--
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Octavia, Marc Antony's Roman wife. Cleopatra Selene, I think, married a King, I'm not sure about Cleopatra's two other sons.
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The arguments have been very well summarized, with sources, by Chris Bennett, who is the online authority for the Ptolemies.
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I was told that she didn't have red hair, but that Egyptians often dyed their hair red using the Henna. ~ApplesnPeaches ~
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In the article it says, "It is said that Cleopatra took her own life on August 12, 30 BC, allegedly by means of an asp."
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I've started an approach that may apply to Knowledge's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on
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have been Caesar's heir. Not only was he a bastard, but foreign-born. I think we should replace the said sentence with:
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Antony's behavior was considered outrageous by the Romans, and Octavian convinced the Senate to levy war against Egypt.
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what kind of water did cleopatra use to take her bath? did she ever use magnets in her water.... i reallly wonder....
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678:. I was thinking about just changing the link to the latter, but the whole think seems a little sticky to me. Anyone?
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I edited the article to best fit other cases. The article is not neutrual and shows only one side of a complex story
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She had two old sisters, the eldest being another Cleopatra, and the other one being named Berenice. They both died.
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ncient Egypt after Ceaser's intrusion. There's a similar problem with naming eras in ancient Greece. Our article
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3. Plutarch proposed an alternate suicide method, poison hidden in a hollow comb that she carried in her hair.
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The three essentials of crime are motive, means and opportunity. In imperial abundance, Octavian had the lot.
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reverts were made, which brought back old vandalism. Otherwise, it's a very nice article. Very informative. --
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936:, let me check that damn article to see if anyone's gotten snip happy about the debate over his ethniticity.
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Cleopatra is distinguishable as the last of three women ever to use the title Pharaoh. Her predecessors were
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Seeing as how Cleopatra Selene II has her own page, I decided to add her link in Cleopatra VII's info box.
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The article is closed, but if you find it important, you could incude this data on the sub-title "Films":
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I beleive the BBC source is relating a modern invention. Especially considering how half of it is LATIN.--
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and Iullus was praetor in 13 BC, consul in 10 BC and Asian proconsul. His mistake was getting up to some
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bunch of snobs. Besides, both men were already married at the time: to Calpurnia and Octavia. Cheers,
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1.coins were produced in her own reign, how could she had allowed her to be depicted as not beautiful
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provides a lot of general background information while linking to the later dynasties, including the
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Cleopatra Selene, was wed to Juba II, they had a son Ptolemais that was later murdered by Caligula.
525:, and not during Dynasty 6 or 18. The claim that "Nitocris" was a female is an error on the part of
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1441:? It's clearly a primary use, and Cleopatra redirects here. The current title is kind of silly.
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And Cleopatra", and I didn't learn anything, either. Man, this Knowledge jazz is for the birds! --
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2.the two greatest men of that time, who could get any women, selected non other than Cleopatra
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1131:"However, Caesar refused to make the boy his heir, naming his grand-nephew Octavian instead."
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I noticed a strangeness in the Mark Antony and Cleopatra section of the article. It begins:
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Uhh... Why? The Romans enslaved and demeaned people of all races and non-Roman ethnicities.--
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I also thought that the little piece of knowledge (if it is correct, of course) that "is an
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profiler Pat Brown. If anyone else is unwilling to take up the challenge, then I'll do it.
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Works for me. I've added a link to History of Greek and Roman Egypt just for good measure.
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There is quite a lot of vandalism on this article lately. I've requested semi-protection.
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Octavian I suspect she would have remained as obscure as her predecessors and namesakes.'
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472:), but I'm as queer as the next guy and have never run across Cleo in that context.... ā
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It's under the "Caesar and Caesarion" section and bears no relevance to that topic. --
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Personally, I do agree for removong the section. We had a similar question, concerning
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that surpassed the senate. He was actively changing politic when he was assasinated.
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There is some inconsistency which needs to be corrected in one or the other articles.
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You might find you learn more doing it yourself. Usually helpful come exam time. ā
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Somebody has mixed their milk and meat, in other words, this definetly aināt kosher.
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were some thousands of miles away and the Cyrillic alphabet was not yet invented...
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Cleopatra, Thea Philopator, Philadelphus, Thea Neotera, Regina Regum Filiorum Regum.
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Iullus and Selene. Octavius treated them both very kindly, allowing Selene to marry
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You've hit on rather interesting point, which is that although Cleopatra lived in
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If they were present when Caesar was murdered, they can't have returned to Egypt
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She was the last independent ruler of ancient Egypt. I would add that sometimes
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Cleopatra can refer to, as well as that the article title is consistent with the
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I moved this from higher up in the page to make any discussion easier to follow:
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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2. Plutarch also said that he didn't know how she really died. āNobody knows".
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http://www.discoverychannelasia.com/ontv_egyptweek/death_cleopatra/index.shtml
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Yes, somebody should stop that Cleopatra before she starts wreckin' the place!
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Cleopatra was the daughter of the King and his own sister that he married to
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ignore the problem, since general articles on the rival views already exist.
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1. This article was corrected. "three sons" changed to "three children". 2.
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The description of the intrigues of Cleopatra's sisters is contradictory.--
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Do not copy text from other websites without permission. It will be deleted
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hello i am doing my project on cleo patra sooo who whats to do it for me?
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Cleopatra followed his example by committing suicide on August 12, 30 BC.
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Hi Yami, I've reverted your additions for now, since they are unsourced.
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How is it possible that the word "nose" isn't even once in the article?
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Also, why is there the greek spelling and not the macedonian spelling?
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legitmacy within the minds of the people conquered by roma. --M.James
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Dunno. I came here wondering why Jonathan Richman wrote a song called
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I appreciate this article is primarily about Cleopatra but this line:
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i would like to know more about cleopatras children where do i look?
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This is incorrect on a couple of points. "Pharaoh" was not used as a
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I think I'll start signing all my posts the same way! :D Inspiring
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Cleopatra had four more children, including Ptolemy Philadelphus".
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A few days later, on November 30, Cleopatra also died by snakebite.
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2801:, Cleopatra is played by the Brazilian actress Alessandra Negrini.
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P.S.: Don't recall my password right now, so just signing as annon
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considers the period to end at Alexander, too, being followed by
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282:, the battle of Actium took place. It is also reporting that on
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2678:- The cover up motive: Prevented a bigger chance of rebellion.
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So was she the second daughter, or did two older sisters die?
206:"Cleopatra VII (69 BC - 30 BC) was pharaoh of ancient Egypt."
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ok rock on dude. whatever you say. be proud of who you are.
1054:"She was the third daughter of the king Ptolemy XII Auletes"
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In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article
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the royal diaries daghter of the nile by kristiana gregory
1057:"as Auletes' oldest child (one older sisters having died)"
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Cleopatra killed herself. Apparently she was clairvoyant.
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Royal naming conventions only apply to modern countries.
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The truth in this is neglible to the point of laughable.
573:"The Ptolemies MUST have had liasions with black people".
301:. Can this be verified and, if so, should it be noted? -
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No, this was her brother and husband Ptolemy, wasn't it?
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she was descended from, it seems best to keep it as is.
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moribund debate between egyptologists and afrologists.
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http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/Mlandimperial_itch.htm
1877:
information. I started that last year while I raised
569:"She was an African queen and therefore she was black"
1990:
COMPUTER RECONSTRUCTION OF WHAT CLEOPATRA LOOKED LIKE
1473:
Cleopatra be at Cleopatra. If you attempted to make
1421:
1134:Actually, by Roman law, Ptolemy Caesar (Caesarion)
164:
with Augustus daughter, Julia. C'est la vie, eh? --
2810:http://pt.wikipedia.org/Cle%C3%B3patra_%28filme%29
2645:- Plutarch: Basket of figs - Cassius: A pitcher.
2338:is a link in this article that refers back to same
1067:No, the eldest was Tryphaena, she was beheaded. --
1437:Would anyone object to moving this to plain old
799:commit suicide. She proved that not to be true.
244:Discussion of the movies should be merged with
1846:Do we really want a fuzzy photo of a waxwork?
533:; the real "Nitocris" of Dynasty 6 was a man.
297:that Cleopatra was, um, well, an accomplished
1868:Cultural depictions of Cleopatra VII of Egypt
1824:This cannot be disputed by anyone. Thank you.
1344:LOL! And teach that poor guy how to spell!
2797:. In this version, filmed and produced in
2793:, it will be only released commercially in
2844:Still inconsistent information on children
2387:definately read this in Margaret George's
1895:Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great
794:Addressing the suicide-vs.-homicide debate
704:(cause they weren't Hellenes before) and
353:also was rewritten. 3. And I changed the
248:, with just a link to that kept here. --
2791:64th Venice International Film Festival
575:This is but a parody of afrocentrism.
537:of Dynasty 12 ruled as a female king. ā
14:
2630:In my reply please read the following
1645:"What did Cleopatra really look like?"
1292:in order to remain in the article. ā
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1934:This is off a Discovery Channel Site
2815:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0488515/
1974:, that occurs on every edit screen.
717:In this case I'd leave it be; while
670:). The problem is that if you go to
25:
1733:Cleopatra was a Macedonian princess
1284:This section currently sounds like
309:What happened to Alexander HeliosĀ ?
23:
1887:Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc
24:
2995:
2395:Deletion of unnecessary paragraph
692:ncient Egypt, she didn't live in
357:article to conform to the above.
295:http://www.world-sex-records.com/
235:that looks a lot better. thanks.
223:the placement of these images is
2813:Internet movie database --: -->
2808:Portuguese Knowledge -----: -->
2285:I'll remove them in a few days.
708:, all of which clearly fit into
676:History of Greek and Roman Egypt
29:
2274:page we see this date instead:
2190:good catch. This is now fixed.
1737:Does the article mention this?
1155:That will is False -- M.James
2737:And rightly so. Good spotting.
1772:05:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
1762:03:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
1747:02:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
1169:) 12:55, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
1121:) 12:38, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
1045:11:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
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857:) 13:08, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
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385:) 12:02, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
13:
1:
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1572:would either one of them do.
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103:11:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
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2765:02:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
2742:10:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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2096:16:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
2039:04:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
1982:20:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
1961:17:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
1948:16:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
1925:16:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
1907:17:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
1836:16:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
1817:08:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
1707:03:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
1682:23:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
1329:04:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
1215:04:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
985:23:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
951:15:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
941:14:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
656:18:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
547:Egyptologists vs Afrocentric
201:16:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
7:
2968:How do you do a refrence?
2899:17:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
2732:06:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
2626:19:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
2573:11:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
2236:05:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
2140:11:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
2015:11:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
1893:. Recently I also created
1851:20:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
1787:11:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
1725:11:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
1581:Yes, of course: go for it.
1453:how many different articles
1446:21:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
1417:05:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
1280:Other theories of her death
963:16:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
820:09:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
751:07:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
738:14:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
683:12:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
561:10:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
362:09:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
10:
3000:
2356:Mark Antony and Cleopatra?
2312:14:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
2292:03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
1639:10:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
1624:12:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
1590:I think I will move it to
1479:Cleopatra (disambiguation)
1401:12:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
1387:09:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
1369:obviously she was beatiful
1354:12:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
829:02:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
769:oral sex + the queen true?
721:stops before Greek Egypt,
470:Bevan's authoritative book
209:Was she actually Pharoah?
169:16:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
125:12:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
2959:01:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
2700:21:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
2611:09:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
2555:09:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
2541:18:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
2497:21:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2486:20:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2470:name, frequently used in
2460:19:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2449:18:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2433:name, frequently used in
2415:17:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2405:17:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2351:21:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
2270:Now if we actually go to
2160:Requested semi-protection
2056:) 00:25, 3 December 2006
1610:states that her name was
1499:Anthony and Cleopatra VII
1300:04:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
1072:17:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
1006:06:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
834:Caesarion or Ptolemy XIV?
571:or possibly the dogmatic
567:further than the shallow
523:Third Intermediate Period
464:20:23, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
419:17:01, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
342:11:35, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
305:17:23, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
261:22:06, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
252:22:00, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
231:05:25 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
139:20:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
2924:13:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
2078:) 01:53, 8 December 2006
1265:16:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
1250:16:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
1227:11:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
719:History of Ancient Egypt
626:With all respect Raphael
621:21:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
542:21:44, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
476:20:33, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
441:20:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
431:20:39, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
408:Encyclopaedia Britannica
403:08:40, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
270:00:41, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
239:06:30 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
2616:Snakebite inconsistency
2377:00:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
2344:donations of alexandria
2336:donations of alexandria
2327:14:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
2201:conflicitng information
598:just say 'afrologist'?
2369:
2260:Okay. This page says:
2228:
1407:Vandalism not reverted
642:12 October 2007 (UTC)
2903:Ancient sources like
2362:
2224:
2181:a fast spelling error
2177:3 januarius, morning
2130:of Cleopatra, visit
1889:, which has become a
1161:comment was added by
1113:comment was added by
849:comment was added by
377:comment was added by
42:of past discussions.
2476:Philip II of Macedon
2439:Philip II of Macedon
2389:Memoirs of Cleopatra
2331:How so? -Pandora958
2300:seems to agree with
521:regularly until the
355:Ptolemy Philadelphus
330:Ptolemy Philadelphus
1305:It's she Beautiful?
906:Alexander the Great
415:back home in peril.
2885:cleopatra's beauty
2468:Ancient Macedonian
2431:Ancient Macedonian
2005:Cleopatra, visit
1875:in popular culture
1562:in an encyclopedia
1374:Cleopatra, visit
1232:Antony's behaviour
1191:ā¢ 2006-06-04 17:10
702:Hellenistic Greece
507:Eighteenth Dynasty
390:Marriage to Antony
158:Juba II of Numidia
120:relevant section.
2986:
2974:comment added by
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2914:comment added by
2837:
2825:comment added by
2787:Portuguese-spoken
2767:
2755:comment added by
2734:
2722:comment added by
2634:Cleopatra's death
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2583:comment added by
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2508:comment added by
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2113:comment added by
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2070:comment added by
2048:comment added by
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2025:comment added by
2001:
1819:
1807:comment added by
1608:BBC.co.uk History
1331:
1315:comment added by
1286:original research
1255:Augustus/Octavian
1217:
1201:comment added by
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1170:
1122:
1035:
1023:comment added by
858:
727:Ptolemaic Dynasty
386:
246:Cleopatra (movie)
203:
191:comment added by
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48:current talk page
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817:Faenor Mornedhel
485:I removed this:
446:Gay Icon Project
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351:Alexander Helios
321:Alexander Helios
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147:probably spared
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2707:Nine children?!
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1080:
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845:āThe preceding
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668:Ancient History
663:
661:"Ancient Egypt"
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373:āThe preceding
323:article saysĀ :
313:Article saysĀ :
311:
219:User: Dimadick
95:131.211.191.107
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1127:Refused/Unable
1125:
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1123:
1092:
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1079:
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1051:
1050:Check the math
1048:
1037:
1036:
1025:72.155.204.238
1009:
1008:
991:
988:
968:
967:
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965:
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713:
712:ncient Greece.
698:Ancient Greece
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2724:24.63.72.201
2714:
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2692:85.93.201.34
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2153:
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2145:Leaving Rome
2128:
2115:71.239.72.80
2100:
2043:
2018:
2003:
1993:
1971:
1941:
1936:
1932:
1928:
1918:
1915:
1912:New Evidence
1899:
1874:
1872:
1845:
1823:
1799:
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1775:
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1742:
1739:
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1477:redirect to
1461:Sxeptomaniac
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1177:
1163:71.52.16.198
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1130:
1115:71.52.16.198
1100:
1097:
1093:
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1042:Darkmind1970
1038:
1010:
993:
978:
969:
948:Darkmind1970
945:
934:Jesus Christ
932:Speaking of
920:
865:
851:71.52.16.198
840:
837:
823:
813:
807:
805:
801:
797:
777:
772:
761:24.10.102.46
757:
709:
706:Roman Greece
693:
689:
664:
644:
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624:
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610:
603:Saltyseaweed
600:
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550:
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393:
379:71.52.16.198
368:
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273:
264:
259:Someone else
255:
250:Infrogmation
243:
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183:
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132:
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43:
37:
2970:āPreceding
2910:āPreceding
2821:āPreceding
2805:Sources:
2751:āPreceding
2718:āPreceding
2623:Rolypolyman
2579:āPreceding
2504:āPreceding
2272:Caesarion's
2109:āPreceding
2066:āPreceding
2050:71.79.98.90
2021:āPreceding
2000:āPreceding
1976:Paul August
1955:Paul August
1879:Joan of Arc
1803:āPreceding
1794:WAKE UP''''
1769:White Guard
1604:something.
1583:White Guard
1553:White Guard
1533:White Guard
1509:White Guard
1311:āPreceding
1224:4.246.3.195
1197:āPreceding
1019:āPreceding
972:Intranetusa
960:71.37.5.106
535:Sobekneferu
293:It says on
284:August 30th
187:āPreceding
166:Camblunt100
162:ooh laa laa
36:This is an
2936:Marhawkman
2872:Sponsianus
2864:Hi Joriki!
2785:The first
2739:Sponsianus
2585:Graffixguy
2565:Graffixguy
2421:Seleukosa,
2348:uri budnik
2233:Nautafoeda
2221:Relevance?
2132:Graffixguy
2027:Graffixguy
2007:Graffixguy
1858:Promus Kaa
1779:Graffixguy
1717:Graffixguy
1631:Marhawkman
1317:Graffixguy
1203:Graffixguy
648:Mikmik2953
637:Sponsianus
632:dynasty.
581:Sponsianus
539:Nefertum17
503:Hapshepsut
299:fellatrice
237:Kingturtle
229:Kingturtle
2964:Refrences
2819:Thanks.
2546:Red hair?
2536:pages. --
2530:12 August
2494:Seleukosa
2472:Macedonia
2457:Seleukosa
2435:Macedonia
2427:Cleopatra
2412:Seleukosa
2402:Seleukosa
2374:Atamasama
2302:Caesarion
2217:jemusser
2086:Akhenaten
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