796:"medical guidelines and position statements from... international expert bodies" is an exact description of the SoC. Later on it calls medical guidelines or institutional position papers "ideal sources". On the topic of older research it notes "an older primary source that is seminal, replicated, and often-cited may be mentioned in the main text in a context established by reviews", which seems to back up what I've been saying (Reimer certainly fits that description). Not really surprising - if the 50 year-old literature is good enough for WPATH to base their position on, why on earth would it not be good enough for us? Even if it wasn't, surely we could just remove the citations and quote their conclusions on the basis that they are an international expert body? —
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treatment does not discuss this. The quote I added explains why this is not viewed as a treatment option. If you think that this is not relevant information for the article that people would not be interested to know, then please let me know why. I can certainly see that I could be wrong along those lines and would be open to being convinced of it. However I do not think that the quote can be dismissed on the basis of its source, any more than the one directly above it which I was adding to. —
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there are few robust scientific studies showing the effectiveness of sex reassignment, which is actually in agreement with the
Birmingham study that you posted, but it also adds some context to the statement: Robust scientific studies on this issue would largely be impractical or unethical to carry out, so experts in the field must lean more on clinical experience. --
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from the SoC, it is not a passage that the SoC has quoted (although I'm unsure how that would undermine it anyway). It is quite common for scientists to refer to older studies when writing about a topic, in cases where those studies were important and no studies since then have called their findings into question.
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I could give it a go. From my understanding of them one large direct quote is really not ideal, so the current paragraph in that section could probably be reworked a bit too. If discussion ends up indicating that there isn't any problem with the source of my addition, I'll maybe see if I can rephrase
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Thanks for the help, I'm fairly new to wiki editing (or at least I still feel constantly out of my depth) and I really appreciate getting pointers. I started this conversation here rather than on the talk page because I was already discussing an edit this user made there (I linked to it above) and I
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All I'm interested in is improving the article, and the article states very early on that "Treatment of gender dysphoria does not involve attempting to correct the patient's gender identity, but to help the patient adapt." I think many people will wonder why that is, why the section on psychological
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I think the part where people w/o transsexualism/GD avail of GRT should not be removed, as it is referenced (though some of it in the old "Brown 105" format) and factual. The part where ppl with other diseases seek it might not belong in
Eligibility. The Iran part does because "eligibility" does not
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This statement from the "Ethical, Political and
Cultural" section strikes me as entirely opinion, especially as it is single sourced and goes against the grain of many other references in the article: "though few post-operative transsexuals believe that sexual reassignment surgery was a mistake for
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I don't see how it's relevant, the full title is "contentious labels". Is saying that he's "a psychiatrist affiliated with the Roman
Catholic Church" contentious? It seems very relevant here; the previous paragraph describes how the Catholic Church is morally opposed to sex reassignment. Describing
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I would advise against that, because the statement of the existence of a broad clinical consensus comes from a reliable secondary source, the
American Psychiatric Association; Birmingham's study does not make mention of whether there is a consensus. Also, the same secondary source does mention that
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This whole article is simply terrible and is clearly written from an advocacy position. Pretty much everything is bad here. Staring with the title. These procedures do not alter the "sex" of the people, instead they would call it "gender" not "sex." A sex change is not a real thing (at least in
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A lot of the issues were with opinionated statements that were interspersed with factual statements in parts of the article that should have just been about the facts, like the issues of diagnosis and eligibility, and the various treatments. Opinions should be moved to their own area, but I wasn't
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Also here are a few new references, and i probably botched them, as CS1 is very complicated. And because of time limitations I just had to stop adding/changing things, concentrating on making the reorg itself work. AS a result, the "ethical/cultural/political" part is rather sparse at present - but
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According to the WPATH SOC v7, "Psychotherapy (individual, couple, family, or group) for purposes such as exploring gender identity, role, and expression; addressing the negative impact of gender dysphoria and stigma on mental health; alleviating internalized transphobia; enhancing social and peer
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which was cited in the article in no way links McHugh's opinions about sex reassignment surgery to his religious beliefs. McHugh was director of the
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science at the Johns Hopkins University for 26 years. His reasons for opposing this surgery seem founded in
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if you want to verify the source of the quote for yourself. It - like the passage directly above it - comes from that version of the SoC, which had not been published prior to 2012. I don't understand what you mean when you say that the source is recent, but the quote isn't. I am quoting directly
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It also states "Treatment aimed at trying to change a person’s gender identity and expression to become more congruent with sex assigned at birth has been attempted in the past without success (Gelder & Marks, 1969; Greenson, 1964), particularly in the long term (Cohen-Kettenis & Kuiper,
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It also states "Treatment aimed at trying to change a person’s gender identity and expression to become more congruent with sex assigned at birth has been attempted in the past without success (Gelder & Marks, 1969; Greenson, 1964), particularly in the long term (Cohen-Kettenis & Kuiper,
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Information about Paul McHugh came back in the reorg, it's now in the ethical/cultural section as its primary notability is not medical. (It is a documented case of ethics-derived bias, and is usually cited by political opponents of treatment). As for a
History section, it was raised before, the
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Thanks for helping with this. I guessed that WPATH's citations wouldn't be wanted in the article, but I wasn't sure how to format it. I tried to copy the existing formatting of the section I was adding to, but the part of the source used for the previous quote doesn't have citations so it's not
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This is false and needs to be changed. "The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the
University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically
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And you both need to take this to the article talk page. Wide review of editing is the most important tool in the proper interpretation of medical sources. I have no idea which of you is right and very little interest in finding out. Just trying to make sure we present the best information
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expected this issue to be a simple clarification. I really don't see how the source could be an issue when it's already used throughout the article on the exact same topic, but I'm very happy to leave the discussion to other people. I don't come to wikipedia to get my head bitten off. —
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sure where to immediately move them, so I hid them in this thread. What do you think should be done with them? Ramendik seems to have the right idea by looking at these issues in the social/ethical/political considerations section, so perhaps we should work on moving them there?
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claiming that it's a 50 year old quote. That is not the case: it's from the SoC Version 7, the same version as the quote directly above it that I was expanding on. This version was published in 2012. The studies it cites are old, but clearly the organisation still considers them
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243:, as before the development of synthetic hormones, surgery was the only way available. So the question is what to put in the History section apart from some older single studies. I actually feel such a section would be a good idea - just not sure how to populate it.
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I could perhaps add back the 2010 Sweden study. Also, there was a couple of really old primary sources that didn't seem to be referenced in any of the reliable, recent medical secondary sources, so I thought that maintaining them in the article would violate
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No matter how recent the source was, the quote you added is 50 years old. My grandpappy was buying his new
Oldsmobile when your quote was written, and you want to add it to a current article about sex reassignment surgery? Get real.
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In light of the expansion, I am considering removing the broken/outdated and not verify tags. Please post here any specific objections to that (i.e. any citations you find that are broken or outdated or do not verify the text).
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While some feel that formal diagnosis helps to destigmatize transsexualism, others feel that it only adds stigma, essentially feeling that such a diagnosis is equivalent to saying something really is wrong with them. (Brown
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empirical research. Unless you can find a reliable source stating that McHugh's opposition was based on his being a
Catholic...then don't add just to demonize this person and make a sloppy point. Editors must maintain a
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Using psychotherapy to change a person's gender identity and gender expression has been attempted in the past without success, particularly in the long term. WPATH states that "such treatment is no longer considered
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Also, I wonder if we can maintain this about intersex people. Perhaps a link to "sex assignment" (which deals more with intersex issues) at the bottom of the article would help (click edit to see text):
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I have no expertise on this subject, and no opinion about the scientific merit of the information you added. I'm concerned about the encyclopedic value of adding a review of 50 year-old literature.
208:. WP:MEDRS does not suggest that we can't use any single studies or primary studies at all. And the repeated bolding of "sex reassignment therapy" is out of hand; that should only be bolded once, per
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Thanks. I am removing some superfluous opinions scattered throughout the article and placing them here. Here are the things I've removed from the article to clean it up (click edit to see the text):
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directly comparable. I thought that leaving it unedited would be the best way to avoid accidentally breaking policy or causing misunderstandings, and that someone would reword it if it wasn't right.
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adding the quote into the section. If current secondary sources quote it, and if indeed current secondary sources depend on it, then it belongs in the article. This is the correct interpretation of
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This kind of procedure (castration) has been performed on gender non conforming men for centuries typically against the will of the person. Shouldn't there be some mention of this?
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I'd suggest that the article would better be titled: "Sex reassignment surgery" and that any relevant mention of "Sex reassignment therapy" might be made within the article text.
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I was trying to expand on the section and the statement in the opening that "Treatment of gender dysphoria does not involve attempting to correct the patient's gender identity".
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this point in medical science). This error is repeated again in the "Sex reassignment surgery" section. There's much more wrong with the article, but that's a start.
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Glad to have you aboard. We can now work faster to improve this article on then have it reassessed on WikiProject Medicine, to move it beyond start class. --
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Thanks. I am in agreement. I'm not sure how to fit it into the article, though, so I leave that up to your judgment. Let's see what you do with it. :) --
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possible. Let some people who do know what they are talking about in on the discussion. Feel free to copy this discussion over to the article talk page.
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him instead as "a well-known opponent of sex reassignment therapy" seems much more subjective and vague, which is exactly what WP:LABEL warns against. —
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Why would it not be mentioned that similar procedures on gender nonconforming (gay) people have been performed for centuries? It's obviously relevant.
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already has an article. Secondly, castration (removal of the testes) is not sex assignment. Men do not stop becoming men if they undergo
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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at least it's here to add things from Hijra to details of insurance coverage, without cluttering up the medical parts.
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Thanks for responding, I'm sure we can come to an understanding without this being adversarial. You can download
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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If I were you, I'd take those citations in parentheses out and just quote directly from the WPATH standards. --
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140802135807/http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC%2C%20V7.pdf
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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This should allow us to start fresher with the article. I will also archive the older comments here. --
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1063:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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1300:"Sex reassignment therapy" gets "... 2,560 results" with no inclusion of this term in the book titles.
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the section when I edit it again. For the part I added, perhaps something like this would be better?
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Here's another. We may want to redo the way the citations are done as well for that Brown source:
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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Also, if you want to create a history section, then let's see what you come up with. Remember
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Common name for the "medical aspect of gender transitioning" is "Sex reassignment surgery"
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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I've been looking through policy some more though, and I think after going through
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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support; improving body image; or promoting resilience" is a treatment option.
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I actually just typed out a comment questioning another of your edits,
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1984; Pauly, 1965). Such treatment is no longer considered ethical."
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1984; Pauly, 1965). Such treatment is no longer considered ethical."
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In my opinion, you have removed too much from the article. A lot of
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http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC%2C%20V7.pdf
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http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC%2C%20V7.pdf
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OK. There don't seem to be any objections. Go ahead and add it. --
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http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
673:. I'll keep this separate as these are two separate issues. —
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The reorg has been done! All the tidy neat sections are here!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Sexual_reassignment_surgery#History
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The section on psychological treatment currently reads:
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considering removing broken/outdated and not verify tags
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758:Just a thought, but perhaps you should both read
631:I added this, from the same version of the SoC (
618:Expanding on the psychological treatment section
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1211:This message was posted before February 2018.
1101:This message was posted before February 2018.
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519:— Preceding
512:
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739:Magnolia677
689:Magnolia677
664:definitive.
604:Magnolia677
566:Magnolia677
457:orchiectomy
451:First off,
422:Historical?
36:This is an
1293:In books:
1274:Report bug
1164:Report bug
1035:Memarshall
560:I noticed
453:castration
329:WP:BE_BOLD
288:WP:MEDDATE
210:WP:MOSBOLD
1335:article.
1257:this tool
1250:this tool
1147:this tool
1140:this tool
1010:Beneficii
980:ethical."
961:WP:INTEXT
933:Beneficii
908:Beneficii
580:that page
562:this edit
542:Beneficii
382:Beneficii
333:Beneficii
305:Beneficii
202:WP:MEDMOS
180:Beneficii
153:Beneficii
116:Beneficii
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
1263:Cheers.—
1153:Cheers.—
1033:them".
965:WP:QUOTE
904:WP:MEDRS
760:WP:MEDRS
576:contribs
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245:Ramendik
206:WP:MEDRS
139:Ramendik
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1187:my edit
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900:support
359:Flyer22
218:Flyer22
39:archive
135:WP:EW
16:<
1371:talk
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1323:Kaye
1320:Greg
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1014:talk
963:and
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