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944:. The historical map is useless at the present resolution—I haven't a clue what that piece of land above is supposed to be. Anything that isn't red on the modern map should be removed from the Empire template. Exploration does not equal Empire. Until someone took that land from its inhabitants (yes, it had inhabitants before the Portuguese, Spanish, French, and English came along), it cannot be considered in any way to be part of the empires of any of those nations.
81:
900:, specially the protestant countries and Francis I of France. And if you see again the maps I putted in that page, you'll see half Nova Scotia, Labrador and Newfoundland in the Portuguese side. Cartography was not so exact as today, so errors were made. Of course the Portuguese cartographers tried to put everything the more to the east they could, to fall within the Portuguese side. And also look how the Portuguese shield was also shown.
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to not to use this template for former colonies, as then one island might have a lot of Empire templates from the
Portuguese, the Dutch, the British and even more if there are ancient empire templates in the future. It is more appropriate to use only wikilink in the See Also section. This is also the same case for
1060:
uses small caps to designate those that are still in the empire. They don't really give an indication in the title that the states may have been former territories. Would you suggest a title like "Current and former
Portuguese Empire"? (It's clear enough if one actually looks at the contents, and can
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c) Well, and the
Algerian-Libyan border in some spots? Surely is not defended. And in case of need, Portuguese were the first to arrive, from Azores. But this is "virtual control". But as the Portuguese empire was so big, and Portugal so small, some possessions were abandoned, the ones that were less
880:
a) Portuguese nomenclature, at least in
Newfoundland, is well alive: in the North Coast almost everything was named by Portuguese explorers. See the maps I posted in the Portuguese Empire discussion page and if you translate from Portuguese you'll see most names are alive today, translated to English
1211:
The
Portuguese built a trading post/fortress on the coast, which does not constitute colonizing the island or making it part of their empire. Several other European countries did the same (especially France) but none of these was long-lived and none managed to capture land and rule local communities
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Well, yes there are dates for readers to look the template in detail, but at a glance (esp. when the template is in collapsed state) it looks like the article currently belongs to the empire. Particularly for a small size articles which the template then fills half of the article's space. I'd argue
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There were
Portuguese fishermen in these places, and Labrador is named for a Portuguese explorer, but I hardly can imagine that any of these places could even in the slightest bit be considered to be part of a "Portuguese Empire". I don't believe that there has ever been any evidence of Portuguese
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part of
Portugal in, say, 1994, even if the United Nations considered its nominal status to be that of a "non-self-governing territory under Portuguese administration." (quote is from the East Timor article, but is there a source to back it up?) And if the UN did not continue to pass resolutions to
423:
Well, as i see it, this is too big a template. As such there are many Indian places which at some point of time were ruled by some or the other kingdoms. Are we going to include the details of all such kingdoms in each of the respective places’ articles? In some articles, these templates are even
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the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the
Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
842:
a) Unless I'm mistaken, there are few
Portuguese names that have remained. There are the obvious, like Labrador, but as far as I'm aware, there are a couple other minor place names, but that's about it. As for pointing out Portugal not having control over the coast of Brazil by a certain date,
1004:. It gives a false impression to common readers, whom are the readers of why we are editing in Knowledge, that the article they are reading at is currently belonging to the Portuguese Empire. I suggest to rename the template, although I prefer to link those little stubby islands with a link to
970:
Well, as far as the cartography in the XVI century said, they were in the
Portuguese side, so it is not important if they are really on that side, as we know on the XXI century. I was not talking about the map on the Portuguese Empire page, I was talking about the maps on the Portuguese Empire
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complex. Surely there are huge amounts of non habited regions in Siberia, but that doesn't prevent it to be Russian. It is Russian because it is recognized to be so. Portugal only was capable to hold the land possessions of the empire because of the Treaty of Tordesillas, who gave Portugal the
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The Portuguese Empire only later tried to control all the main land of its possessions, like Brazil or Angola. In the beginning they only claimed the coast. For example Brazil only in the 1530's started to be colonized and explored inland, although it was claimed in 1500. The control thing is
820:
c) I'm not pointing to the whole Siberia: I mean the isolated forests of Siberia. Nobody ever went or live there. Or isolated deserts of Algeria, or cold deserts of Greenland, or some parts of the Amazonian forest. I'm thinking of isolated lands were nobody lives
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section. For the record, I am not against the template. The template layout is interesting although it is a bit too big to fill half space of a small article. Only that the inclusion of this template makes a factual error that we should avoid. —
562:, and in the Danish case, this lack of recognition included a refusal to conduct official meetings on Baltic soil or the posting of consular missions there. A more famous example is Cyprus: All nations save Turkey don't recognize the
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a) We don't know. Portuguese presence may have been strong because of the Portuguese names that survived until today. Anyway, I point again to Brazil: from 1500 to 1530 Portugal did not have control of the coast either, and it was
927:
I'm sorry, but I don't find your interpretation of the treaty correct. There is no way that Newfoundland, Labrador, and Nova Scotia were considered to be on the Portuguese side (and even if they were considered to be, they
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recognition of the lands on its side. Challenging that treaty was challenging not only Portugal, but also Spain and the Pope, that's why most European nations used piracy and not an "official" rejection of it until some
722:
Actually, there are weather station crew there. But small useless little islands are a little different from claiming huge chunks of land as part of your Empire. If you land a man at Nova Scotia, I'll grant that
530:
I think it was like you said "non self-governing territory under Portuguese administration", and Portugal nor any country I know have recognized Indonesian occupation, but I can't exactly say how it was.
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
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see that the dates of nearly all territories were relatively short.) Whatever is chosen, it would probably be best to make it apply to all of these former/current colonies the same, of whatever empire.
374:
I'd say not so much big as too dense; are the dates really necessary...? Â If so, might they be sorted into bands/eras to form a column between the regions (in bold) and places...? Â Regards,
503:
control at some point in time (and would generally be considered to be retroactive to the point of first control by Indonesia). I can't imagine that East Timor was considered to be
846:
b) Okay, that treaty, which hardly would hold up as international law today, seems to give these places to Spain, not Portugal, so it can't be used to support Portugal's claim.
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The t/p currently has the end of Portuguese control in E. Timor as 1975 (the date Indonesia invaded) instead of 2002 (the date of independence). Which is correct? - Thanks,
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Portuguese from 1975 to 1999, although the note must say it was invaded by Indonesia in that period. From 1999 to 2002 it was of the United Nations, not Portugal, I think.
363:
I tried to make the template show only on clicking the show button...but something seems to be wrong. It now shows only when you click twice! Could somebody fix that? --
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that you mentioned above. However, if the template editors insist to include all islands and areas, then the title surely needs to be changed to avoid factual errors. —
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What's the problem with Greenland? It was a frozen Brazil. Labrador claimed it to Portugal. Portugal had good relations with Denmark and would not claim a Danish land.
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status don't necessarily match. The United States and several other countries (including my own: Denmark) never recognized the Soviet Union's annexation of the
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In glancing through the various lists, it seems that very few of them are still in the empire (Azores and Madeira were the only ones I found). I notice both
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I have already done so, and still take issue with the presumption that these places could even in the slightest be considered part of a Portuguese Empire.
1204:
I've removed Madagascar from this list. The Portuguese were an insignificant player in the island's history and including Madagascar here is misleading.
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Like probably you have read, it's exactly like Brazil in the 1500-1530's. The question is: do you need a settlement/colony to have possession of a land?
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The airport is not listed as JoĂŁo Paulo II anywhere. The airport's own website calls itself simply Ponta Delgada, and has no mention of JoĂŁo Paulo.
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the effect that it should be returned, then there should be no real basis in international law that it continued to be a part of Portugal.
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figuring out the proper line of longitude, Portugal would have lost out). The map with the pink shows that the coasts of these areas were
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Kudos on the new design. I happened across it and I think it's fantastic. Absolutely one of the best templates out there. If we have a
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then, well, I'd argue that it should be removed from the places in the Portuguese Empire until such time as they did control the area.
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you can claim that small area he's walked around as part of the Empire, but not the whole of the (now) province. If there's no
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c) No, even isolated areas of Siberia are "controlled" by Russia, since Russia can prevent others from entering those lands.
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Have reformatted template in effort to keep template size controllable and reduce density via aligning dates. Regards,
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Therefore all the territories listed are former territories. Continental Portugal, Madeira and the Azores
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This template was linked in many articles, including former Portuguese Empire islands and areas. This is
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settlement in these areas. It's a bit presumptuous to put them on a template for the Portuguese Empire.
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bigger than the article itself. Isn’t it enough if we just mention the kingdom which ruled the city?
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or French. Brazil was claimed by Portugal and was within its Tordesillas side. If you eliminate the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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1496–1550 dates are impossible, as the first European did not set foot on the island until 1500.
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Mumbai and Salsette Island are same.. could be merged.. please check both and ammend template...
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settlement. If you have no control over the land, then it is obviously not possessed by you.
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listed explicitly and not assume they are only intermunicipal entities (which accessorily are
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Note that I only think these were Portuguese possessions in the beginning of the XVI century.
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until the French military incursion in 1895 that forced the collapse of the Merina monarchy.
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recognition, then why nobody seized the Portuguese lands? They were man-free, resource-rich.
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shows some pink on Greenland as well. I guess it's part of the Portuguese Empire too.
892:. That's why other nations used piracy in the beginning. Only later they defended the
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235:: statistical (NUTS3) subregions and intercommunal entities are confused; they are
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I think there might be some confusion in this discussion. The Portuguese Empire
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c) Russia really does has fairly effective control over Siberia in addition to
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Then why, for exmple, Juan de Nova Island is French? Nobody lives there.
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over the land, then there can be no valid claim to ownership of it.
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i think some factories and forts are missing in the template.
1112:(not yet included). I'm sure it is also the case for the other
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Let's please discuss this before adding it back in. Cheers,
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divide into sections for former and current colonies, while
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b) There was no treaty which said they belonged to Portugal
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but consider the territory part of the Republic of Cyprus.
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a) Portugal didn't even control the coast of these places
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975:. Obviously the pink-red map is a modern composition.
98:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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353:don't you guys think this template is too big?
1108:and even there's a specialized article about
603:See the "Portuguese Empire" discussion page.
583:Newfoundland, Labrador, and Nova Scotia?!
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
1000:because the title of the template says:
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414:page I'd nominate it in a heartbeat.—
92:This template is within the scope of
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172:Improve key articles to Good article
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38:It is of interest to the following
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1055:Territories of the British Empire
1240:Template-Class Portugal articles
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1245:NA-importance Portugal articles
439:Mumbai and Salsette are same...
112:Knowledge:WikiProject Portugal
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1194:13:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
474:Maybe 1999 as East Timor was
469:03:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
115:Template:WikiProject Portugal
106:and see a list of open tasks.
1144:07:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
1069:15:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
1025:08:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
419:06:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
412:Knowledge:Featured templates
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232:Template:Regions of Portugal
224:Category:History of Portugal
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386:17:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
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932:, so when it came down to
888:b) The Pope was a kind of
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608:17:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
598:15:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
535:08:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
518:18:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
483:17:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
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1159:Portugal - not colonies.
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499:control has to turn into
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271:Help assessing articles.
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1117:French overseas empire
1110:Taiwan under the Dutch
1106:Netherlands New Guinea
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227:: lots to remove there
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815:Treaty of Tordesillas
288:Portuguese Knowledge
95:WikiProject Portugal
813:b) Yes it was: the
992:Incorrect template
259:Requested articles
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942:nothing more
941:
937:
933:
929:
898:mare clausum
897:
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889:
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398:David Kernow
395:
376:David Kernow
365:thunderboltz
352:
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40:WikiProjects
29:
1174:more to add
1098:Dutch India
894:mare librum
810:Portuguese.
785:recognition
659:Possession
568:Valentinian
277:Need images
196:Os LusĂadas
1234:Categories
1200:Madagascar
934:eventually
1218:Lemurbaby
1094:Mauritius
1063:Rigadoun
1182:unsigned
1161:The Ogre
1010:See Also
938:explored
904:wealthy.
854:this map
552:De facto
497:De facto
416:Perceval
252:Requests
178:Portugal
109:Portugal
100:Portugal
59:Portugal
30:template
1008:in the
946:Lexicon
930:weren't
883:de jure
858:Lexicon
791:Lexicon
783:de jure
759:de jure
733:Lexicon
729:control
665:Lexicon
618:Lexicon
590:Lexicon
556:de jure
510:Lexicon
505:de jure
501:de jure
493:de jure
476:de jure
426:Kesangh
355:__earth
210:More...
189:Improve
145:history
1090:Ceylon
1066:(talk)
977:Câmara
950:(talk)
912:Câmara
862:(talk)
823:Câmara
821:there.
795:(talk)
764:Câmara
737:(talk)
695:Câmara
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640:Câmara
622:(talk)
605:Câmara
594:(talk)
532:Câmara
514:(talk)
480:Câmara
445:Chirag
402:(talk)
392:Update
299:Wikify
265:Assess
217:Review
183:Lisbon
36:scale.
1139:reply
1134:Indon
1020:reply
1015:Indon
852:BTW,
762:time.
725:maybe
309:Vote:
245:box).
155:purge
150:watch
28:This
1222:talk
1190:talk
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1142:) —
1122:and
1040:and
1023:) —
772:But
564:TRNC
554:and
430:talk
381:talk
257:See
140:edit
1157:are
465:hie
460:Hos
242:not
237:not
1236::
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