Knowledge talk:WikiProject Mountains of the Alps/Archive 1

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should be AfD-ed, or merged together, until such time as the system gets generally recognised and adopted by a competent authority. And even then, reference to some esoteric classification system should be just that, and it shouldn't dominate the content or the intro paragraphs. I fear we are seeing yet another series of articles being created which self-support and validate those very articles, and with dubious supporting sources. see my comment in the previous topic. You guys seems to have a handle on this one, and I'm not keen to get dragged in to sort it out. However, I did look at a few of the pages created in the last year or two on subdivisions of this system. I added the following to the introductory sentence of a sample few which I don't think ought really ought to be in existence:

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copy and regurgitate dubious content ad nauseam, I can find no evidence to justify the 'fact' that the Mont Blanc massif is a part of the Graian Alps whatsoever. There's nothing in any of the Graiain Alps article's references that confirm this, nor anything I can find online. And Reynolds' books specifically differentiate the Graian Alps from the Mont Blanc range. In his "100 Hut Walks in the Alps", the chapter on the Dauphine Alps states: "Wedged between the Dauphiné Alps and the Mont Blanc range, the Graian Alps have at their hub the Vanoise National Park – a glorious region of glacier peaks reflected in a wealth of ..." You can find it with a Google book search with these keywords: Reynolds "Walking in the Alps" "graian" alps "wedged between". And again here:

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environment - be it on glaciers, alpinists, mountain biodiversity, geology, or alpine settlement or mountain refuges. But it probably wouldn't help to have the super-table confused with other content - that should stay with just the mountains. How could we get a 'glaciers of the Alps table to operate - would this actually be helpful I hope by broadening out what the Project encourages, we might get more editors to sign up to contribute. Does someone need to work on the instructions for applying the 'Mountains of the Alps' template, or is this now redundant? And should there also be guidance on our Project page for the best 'Categories' to use or to put articles into? (I could probably do with some guidance myself!)

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southern part of The Alps in Europe, so Southern Alps (New Zealand) seems a logical name to apply to that article. Maybe it somehow hurts national pride to have brackets after a Knowledge title, but common sense should be to help the user, not anyone's feelings of pride. At the end of the day, it's just an extra mouse-click. What concerns me far more is the way that so many righteous, but often not very knowledgeable Knowledge editors think its a quite acceptable policy to merge, delete, rename, re-order or generally dilute Knowledge content for pedantic or other reasons, rather than for sound common sense and with unseemly haste. To call any of these actions 'discussions' is a

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Braunschweiger Hut, with the 'er' kept in. I don't have the foreign language skills to say what's right - just the references to support sensible naming by english-speaking authors. I can offer to add a range of citations to mountain huts in any of the 4000mer ranges, and have guide books for the Otztal, too. To keep the 'evidence' (so-to-speak) all in one place, shall we first create a topic on Hut Names in English (on this page?), and add/edit all the citations there in a piecemeal manner and then gain a concensus. (Though I'm feeling rather wiki-ed out right now!) Any thoughts on the category name change - or is it best to do this task first?

1538:). I think it would be ok to have the same rating first (I guess the articles will be automatically tagged by a bot) then adapt it to the context of he Alps, which obviously means an increase of importance for many articles. Of course, I can also imagine many ways of having a neutral assessment with different criteria if we want that, for instance the more a mountain is listed, the more it is important... But at the end we should have a reasonable number of top-importance and high-importance articles, ideally high-quality articles that can be made and maintained. 2477:. Does anyone know if they really exist this far north, or is it a myth promulgated by a Wikipedian and accepted on every other website since that the massif is within them? The Vallee Blanche cableway system does need integrating better. I've just created a page on the new Skyway Monte Bianco (I was watching the cranes building it back in 2011 when I was there last). Might have some pics of, or from the summit of Mont Dolent I can add, too. A DYK for the MB massif is already submitted, and I'm doing another for the Skyway right now. Any chance 1731:

4000mer was top priority, but as a wikipedian I wouldn't view them that same way. I agree with all the gradings you've given here, but wouldn't agree that Signalkuppe and Zumsteinspitze are of the same 'top' importance' as the more stand-alone (and indeed recognisable by the informed tourist with a map or a postcard in their hand) summits as Lyskamm, Castor or Pollux. But these are small tweaks. It's good to see the template starting to be populated, letting one click each number and see a list of those peaks tagged at that grade.

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modern climbing facts (3 hours of step-cutting on the Jungfrau, for example), or "many routes of PD" being on the Taschorn! I'd like to get a bit more of a sense of what's needed, and best-practice for article structure, before I sign up as a contributor to this Project. But having climbed the majority of the 4000 m summits on Goedeke's list over the past few decades, I'd be pleased to help see one or two of the stubs expanded and better cited. I'll take a look at the

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could well be placed. Now we've got the super table working of articles by quality and importance, maybe we need a few more auto-filled tables, like huts, and mountain guides. Any takers? It's worrying to be able to see that 72 of the really 'High' importance alpine peaks still languish as tiny stubs, often less than 2,000 bytes in size after nearly 10 years in existence. Who was it who said this Project page should be deleted because the work has now all been done??

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number of Alps Project articles on actual mountains are still just a couple of sentences in length after many years in existence, and considerably shorter than each page created on the subdivisions of what appears to still be an unadopted classification system which, even if it does get accepted, isn't going to be relevant to most people wanting information on real mountains in real-world, recognised mountain range.

2008:. I knew I was free to discus them on that discussion page . . . But I wanted to discuss my draft response here first in case I had misunderstood the intention of your proposal, and not unreasonably thought there would be a few day's grace to do this. I was clearly wrong, and wonder whey the matter was brought here to the Mountains of the Alps project page for discussion if that was to be the case. 3051:

gets its own article. That could be based on size, relative importance, being recommended in a serious guide, whether the hut is a base for climbing one or more high mountains. I'd tend to err on the side of including them, but accept that some may be insignificant or e.g. just bog standard skiing or hiking cafes of which there are many (and very pleasant they are too!). --

2429:. Thanks for the rewrite (well, in that case it was more just writing than rewriting). I have a few suggestions to further improve the article: add an introduction including all aspects from geography to tourism (for those who are in a hurry), mountain ranges around the Mont Blanc massif (exhaustively), pictures of Mont Dolent and Vallée Blanche cable car... 1956:

people together and get a favourable decision, based on numbers, not common sense and constructive argument. In my view even 7 days is too short a time for key decisions to be made. I had certainly expected time to air my thoughts here before transferring them to the discussion page. Thank you for re-opening the discussion. How long has it got this time?

2659:) so I would rather go with the AVE which seems to be a more solid subdivision. That would imply using SOIUSA for the division between Western Alps and Eastern Alps, in the main descriptions and eventually for Knowledge categories if needed. Then we'll need to adapt either SOIUSA or Partizione delle Alpi for each individual range in the Western Alps. 396:. The mountain community is not the busiest corner in Knowledge, so we don't need two separate projects and (especially) discussion pages. Moreover, it's safe to assume that most members of WikiProject Mountains will be potentially interested in the Alps, like we, members of this project, are potentially interested in mountains in other areas. 2674:

what do we do where the AVE and PdA disagree. There are at least 2 options: we publish articles under both schemas, making sure they refer to one another where appropriate, or we follow national usage i.e. use the AVE in Germany and Austria, PdA in France and Italy and the Swiss system (which I gather follows neither!) in Switzerland. --

2655:. On the other hand, the Partizione delle Alpi (which I must say I first confused with SOIUSA) has different versions of the Western and Eastern Alps with the Central Alps in the middle. I think the latter partition has its flaws (like SOIUSA, some groups are just collections of distinct subranges, for instance nb 14 and 16 on this 3050:

I tend to be cautious about deleting articles, but in this case the logic is sound and I see no reason why the information it contains couldn't be incorporated elsewhere. In view of this and the Fritz Pflaum Hut discussion, it might be worth trying to come up with guidelines for whether an Alpine hut

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There's far too much effort wasted by some editors on 'wikiturd-polishing', and not enough real effort going into creating worthwhile content in my opinion. I would hate to see this particular pile to gain dominance in a mountain article, though it's a sad fact - and rather an indictment- that a vast

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you could enable a DYK section on the portal? I tried and failed. Nor could I work out why it takes +/- week for a new news item edit to resolve itself and appear on the portal. And while I'm in a curious mood, anyone know why the Refuge du Gouter page got a speedy delete some years back? I'm working

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It would certainly be interesting to see all the peaks listed within the Mountains of the Alps project and quickly view all their current importance gradings. (Anyone know of a short-cut to doing this?) It might be that this project doesn't need to give Alpine articles their own separate grading, but

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I was wondering whether the 'New Articles' section could be more helpful in showing project progress and activity if it were retitled 'New or Enhanced Articles'? we seem to be a bit thin on the ground for completely new content here, but there is a wealth of two sentence stubs relating to the Alps in

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Our parent project, WikiProject Mountains, seems to have an emphasis on climbing, so I don't see why notable Alpinists shouldn't come under the scope of this one. Quite a few first ascenders do have articles, both here but especially on German Knowledge, and I don't mind translating one or two when I

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Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Knowledge struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for

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I admire your courage to undertake that! I tend to think people would prefer to see (or at least would benefit from) good, informative articles, rather than lots of well-polished lists leading to extraordinarily minimalist content. The alpine refuge/mountain huts is a good example of where attention

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really does only deserve its current 'B' grading. I think it's quite dire for such an important mountain. So, I'd like to propose that this TaskForce undertakes to attempt to encourage editors to enhance at least one of our Top importance article, and that Mont Blanc would be the ideal candidate to

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Now that our Article Overview table is functioning (and a huge thanks to those involved), we begin to see just how much work remains to be done. One of the stated aims of this Project/TaskForce is "to create a high quality article for every significant mountain in the range". So, with only 23 out of

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are a southerly extension of the European Alps. Are Knowledge users expected to understand a subject before they look it up, or are we actually trying to help people find stuff here? I go with the latter approach and urge clarity and common sense, and avoid bowing to those who not unreasonably have

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I've just tried to grapple with what is being proposed here and have drafted a response which is to 'oppose'. But maybe I have misunderstood what is being suggested. So, @Hike395, does this mean that the page entitled Southern Alps (New Zealand) will be lost and renamed 'Southern Alps'? Bad move, in

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Ah yes thanks, I overlooked the guidelines (although I'm sure I've read them a long time ago). I'd be in favour of adapting them (I mean only the importance scale, not quality) with neutral criteria as suggested Bermicourt. Since we have to decide between 4 categories (low, mid, high, top), we could

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However this made me wonder whether, between those in this small group, we might have access to many of the key books we each might at times want to check for obscure references. This seems especially important for non-English reference books, and better than just copying references from non-English

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I believe that this page is ready for a close down Thanks to me and Bermicourt there is now a page for almost all the famous peaks of the Alps - and for the few important mountains that are missing, I can create short articles for them within a few weeks. I therefore believe that we should focus our

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Thanks for finding those guidelines. They are a good start. We probably need to tweak them for the Alps and I favour a set of criteria based on e.g. height, prominence, mountaineering importance, fame/popularity (although difficult to assess) and ranking (e.g. highest peak in a range or sub-range).

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I ask because I note that there are quite a few gaps amongst what I would consider notable early pioneers/first ascensionist, and would be happy to contribute to some of these articles. If not this group, which ones? And is there a category of 'alpine first ascensionist' or equivalent applicable to

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LOL - I can't promise that! - most of my work has been with creating stubs or start-class articles. I'll be interested to learn more about specific priorities here though. It doesn't seem that the Projects Article Overview table is very accurate; is this automatically populated or done manually? It

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I think guidelines on inclusion of which huts would be helpful. I presume this couldn't be poaching on any other Project's territory? Significance could, in my view, be tested by a refuge giving special (ie high) access to particular mountains or areas, access to climbs, and inclusion with access

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exist. But I challenge whether that name can legitimately be applied to any mountains further north than the Aosta valley, or that Mont Blanc (and not Gran Paradiso) is the highest peak in that range. Apart from that article and innumerable other Knowledge articles, plus all the spawned sites that

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itself, noting that many news journalists fail to distinguish between Mont Blanc and other lesser mountains in the range. To that end I have already removed a number of news stories relating to deaths occurring on routes not associated with the ascent of this mountain. I would welcome hearing what

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I do agree with you that the majority of people of the world - perhaps with the exception of many in New Zealand - think of the European Alps when they hear the word 'The Alps'. But following that logic along, the rest of the world are then just as likely to assume that the 'Southern Alps' are the

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OK - sounds like a fair bit of work. I presume that means there'd need to be a separate importance system for articles relating to Mountains of the Alps, rather using the same rating for general mountains? Are these criteria that already exist, or would they have to be worked up? Forgive the naive

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Hello Parkywiki, and welcome to the project. There is really a tremendous amount of work to be done and not so many Wikipedians, so it is good to see new people here. For the overview table, it is indeed not working but this is being discussed and hopefully fixed (see below). For the priorities, I

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Hi. Just for info: I'm currently creating articles for all Alpine three-thousanders that have articles on German Knowledge (mainly in Austria). When I've done that I will create at least stubs for the remaining Austrian three-thousanders i.e. those without an article on de.wiki. There are about 30

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It is clearly right that Wikimedia acts to ensure all country's laws are observed. However, there does seem rather a tendency towards 'Wiki-nazism' in this respect, with images flagged for potential copyright violation, then deleted within 10 days (which is undue haste in my opinion, and might be

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Hmm, good points. The snag is that, however good we think a given system is, Knowledge is supposed to reflect the sources. Currently AVE and PdA are schemas that appear to have sufficient authority for Knowledge to use them, but SOIUSA does not. But as you point out that gives us another problem:

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Wow - I'm stunned at the unseemly haste with which significant decisions like this are made on Knowledge - whether it's speedily deleting a brand new article before it's had time to get going, or moving/renaming a page. I am quite shocked how it's possible to quickly gather a posse of like-minded

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Offering a points-scoring approach to guide seems a sensible starting point, providing it's not applied absoluitely rigorously. Some further consideration might then be needed - especially to avoid too many articles being graded as top or high-importance. To me as a (sadly ageing) alpinist, every

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I'm willing to help out by enhancing a few of the quite poor stubs on the W.European 4000mers, though I am rather committed on another WikiProject at present. There seems to be quite a lot of garbled or uncited information on some of the main summit peaks, with hundred year old texts appearing as

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article to exclude every tourist-type of refuge, though felt it appropriate to include the Leschaux hut because of its incredible position, only accessible by glacier travel, and the mountains/routes to which only it gives access. In other lower ranges I would expect a similar, but lower cut-off

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Re SOIUSA, I think what we need to do is steadily go through the SOIUSA-only articles and, as you say, put them up for AfD. One or two do have names that are common in the literature or may be common to other schemas, so they can stay. In the latter case, the article should be based on its wider

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Someone has clearly put a lot of work in writing innumerable articles based on the SOIUSA proposal, and with what justification I'm not entirely sure. I would have thought that just one article on the classification system and all its subdivisions would have been quite adequate, and all the rest

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which look very workable within the context of just the Alps. The question this group needs to consider, I suspect, is whether the importance scale is equivalent and immediately transferable just to those mountains of the Alps. Does it actually want or need its own grading system? For example, I

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Oops - I should have said thank you for the warm welcome @Z and @B. Any chance we can just delete the rather depressing archival note at the top of this talk page, or is that against the rules? If anything is designed to put people off from joining its a 6-year old notice of a potential closure

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page in order to 'set the scene' and allow for content which relates better to the whole massif to be moved there. I have discussed this further on that article's Talk page, and have begun to remove irrelevant content from the various lists there as the first step. Suggestions or help is always

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meet at least the WikiProjectMountains Mid-importance criteria, and most curently do, from a quick check. Currently, Monte Rosa is Top-importance; Weisshorn is High importance, both Signalkuppe and Parrotspitze are Mid-importance, whilst Zumsteinspitze and Lyskamm are both currently graded as

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Couple of comments. First, the notability bar for biographical articles seems to be higher than many other topics (unless of course it's a sportsman, musician or entertainer!). Second, English Wiki is far more fussy than other Wikis in demanding inline citations. That said, we should strive for

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So my suggestion is whether between us there could be some merit in compiling a list of key reference books we each hold or can access, then simply sign our user names with three tildes after each one to indicate whether we have it. Of course, if there's an online version, that could be listed

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is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating

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Anyone considering uploading images to Wikimedia Commons of summit madonnas or other 'artworks' on mountain peaks (or statues of mountaineers in the valleys) in France or Italy should be aware of the copyright issue in these countries. This relates to their being no 'Freedom of Panorama' thus

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and the Ag. de Bionnassay stub (which I've just started working on) have not yet been graded. It's all subjective of course, and can be changed by Project members, but to a mountaineer, Lyskamm and the Aiguille Blanche are both far more significant, recognisable, and well-known than either the

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It could be helpful. I've not used proper references here, just given a quick summary, and have added a few more from my library.Happy to check any refs if anyone needs me to - and hopefully vice versa. Anyone got any Italian, German or French guidebooks to the 4000mers and neighbouring peaks?

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I've added an article counter to the project page, but it won't work unless we can add ratings to the project banner. I'm not really sure how to do this and also I wondered whether we would end up competing with the main WikiProject Mountains. One option is that we could become a task force of

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I agree that names ought to be based on accepted useage only if in properly published, printed sources in English, not the odd website (though www.summitpost.org and the english versions of pages on camptocamp.org are often informative). My only experience of the name structure you mention is

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With those criteria, Signalkuppe, Zumsteinspitze and Nordend would be actually only in the high category (0,1,1,0,0) but together with Lyskamm, Castor and Pollux. I'm really not sure if they should be high or top (Lyskamm, Castor and Pollux) but as I also think the criteria should be mainly a

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I don't think I was intending to suggest expanding the use of the banner to articles that aren't directly related to alpine mountains, but I would like us to feel able, as a Project, to encourage content creation and to celebrate many types of article that are relevant to the alpine mountain

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I also think consideration should also be given to the naming of mountain hut articles. Neither I, my fellow climbers, nor more importantly, any of my English (i.e. Alpine Club) climbing guidebooks covering 40 years ever call a hut by their French or German names. So it would be

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They'll update the Mountain template so we can include 2 new parameters: "alps=yes" and "alps_importance=xxx". I then need to test if this automatically reflects in the table and, if so, we can then start adding the new parameters to the templates on the talk pages of Alpine

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just needs the 'right' (if that's the correct word) to amend the parent project importance gradings), and maybe that avoids the need to review everyone from from scratch. It would be interesting to know what others think, and I for one will look forward to hearing how

3020:. The only other wiki language article (in French) is exceedingly thin on content. None of my climbing guides to Mont Blanc mention it, even in passing, yet the Tête Rousse Hut and Gouter Hut are covered in detail as befits a significant mountain hut. Any thoughts? 2793:

Madonna. In the latter case the wiki-nazis failed to appreciate the statue is on the border with Italy and Switzerland and was erected by the young people of Switzerland where there is no Freedom of Panorama restriction. However the image currently remains at risk

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Me too. I translate a lot of mountain articles from German, usually working my way down a list from highest to lowest. Hadn't spotted the overview table though. I don't know how they work but I thought they updated automatically. Can anyone else help with that?

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in the mid category (0,0,0,0,1) and so on. And, of course, if you think too many articles are in the low or mid category, just add other criteria such as the availability of first solo and first winter ascent dates, 300 m prominence (to distinguish between

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in that the latter contains 29 four-thousanders which are probably amongst the 82 mountains of the former (although I haven't checked). Do we want to remove the four-thousanders from the latter? And do we want to adjust the article names for consistency?

2633:. The last time I checked, it had only been given an airing at one of their conferences. And there were virtually no sources for it apart from the author's own book. The SOIUSA articles were mainly created by one editor who appeared to be promoting it. 3209:

or incidentally the hyphens in hyphenated names. Re category names... Mountain huts of France is the way to go. Reynolds refers to the French ones generically as mountain huts even though he tends to use the French (or Italian) native names for them.

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It gets mine too (ok maybe except the Mont Blanc Tunnel disaster section, which seems a bit off topic to me, aircrashes on the mountain are more interesting). And I couldn't agree more about the distinction between the mountain and the range.

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Nobody's contributing any more as all the major mountains in the Alps have been covered, yes? For mountain lovers, I believe we definitely need an active group for mountains outside of Europe, especially mountains in Africa and the Andes.

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the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please

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article into the one for the massif instead. I hope it makes a reasonable introduction to the range. The challenge for that mountain is knowing when it's not relevant, and ought to go into one of its satellites, or the whole massif.

2577:. Whilst the existence of the proposal might merit an article (albeit largely self-sourced), it doesn't justify the confusion of an unrecognised, alternative scheme of mountain ranges on Knowledge and IMHO they should be put up for 2999: 1813: 3246: 1552:

That does make sense, though there is a big difference between article 'importance' and 'quality'. I've now found there are some great guidelines for assessment of both criteria for general WikiProjectMountain articles here:

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WikiProject Mountains and ask them to amend their banner in some way so a) we could monitor our own progress and b) their banner in some way displays our subject field. Not sure where to go with this. Ideas appreciated. --

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appropriate had a court sought an injunction). But such haste prevents any reasonable opportunity for others to investigate and try to secure the relevant permissions whilst the image is still online. So the statue of

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don't bother trying to help Wikimedia by investigating ownership of artistic rights because the wiki-nazis will get their way and delete content long before you ever manage to elicit an answer from the relevant

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pride in a regional name and some damned fine mountains that I'd love to climb. If we use the term 'Southern Alps', it begs the question "southern to what?" So let's tell people. I'd be quite happy to support

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Yes, I think that would be a great idea, but given that we have only got three members – one of whom is now banned, one of whom is you, the other being me – I can't see that the readership will be tremendous.

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I'm happy to join. I'm already working with the Mountains WikiProject, but have already translated dozens of articles on the Alps from German Knowledge and created numerous categories for mountain ranges e.g.

2473:. Maybe this is one occasion when the WP:MOS guidance on picture galleries is worth ignoring? Adjacent ranges could be good, though I shall scream if I hear any more references to the mysterious and elusive 2628:

is the current system used in France and Italy; so both of them carry some authority. But SOIUSA isn't accepted outside Italy and I'm not even sure it's been endorsed by the Italian Alpine Club to supersede

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I've taken the liberty of reordering the content of the Project page, and have slightly broadened the goals of the Project. Would other project members please check they are happy with this modification.

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Sorry, I didn't see Parkywiki's comments in time (For next time, you may wish to use {{ping|Hike395}} to alert me through the notification system). You should always feel free to post directly to the RM

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they tend to get rejected if the adminstrator can't quite understand the specific area for which they are notable, of if one can't point to a reasoned justification on a Project page. Do we have one?

3110:, not Mischabelhütte as it is commonly cited in anglicised form as such. Has this ever been pronounced upon? (no pun intended). I recently put each country's sub-categories into the main entry for 3205:

and also to split compound nouns appropriately as the convention indicates. Once we are agreed on a convention for huts, we can simply add it to that page. Certainly we don't need to retain the

850:). I was mildly irked because it was already more extensive and better cited than all the wikipedia articles on him in other languages (Fr, Es, It), though I probably shouldn't have included 1982:. When anyone says "The Alps", they mean the European ones, even in New Zealand (although you'd have to ask a Kiwi to double-check). They certainly don't mean a minor mountain range like the 1534:

I found nothing about how to assess the importance of any article in the Mountains project, I think it is mainly individual editors who decide how important the subject is (see for instance

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adequate referencing; not least because it's the only way to raise the Wiki class of articles on the Alps and maybe even get some Featured Articles. Meanwhile here are a few of my sources:

2604:). Unfortunately, there are no universally-accepted subdivision of the Alps (especially the western Alps) and we have to deal with that. Yes folks, a lot of discussions and work ahead! 582: 2846: 755:

Can I ask whether this group avoids straying into the territory of people or of features related to mountains (e.g. glaciers/alpine huts or first ascensionist and/or their guides)?

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Appearance which 'Displays an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header' and changes the title colour to reflect this. We could do with this in Hovercards, too.

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starting point, I don't mind at all if they are applied in a flexible way. I think we will see much better of to adapt those criteria when the categories are fully populated...

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wouldn't give us much more of an article (!), but at least it could form a guide to inclusion - and maybe it might bring in a few more recruits to the project, too. Thoughts?

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That's good to hear. Maybe a discussion on the scope of the project/task force is in order to see what other priorities it could include that relate to mountains in the Alps.

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and taking a look over the border in Germany. But you're right, there are lots of stubs that need expanding, probably in order of height and notability. And I'd like to get

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one way or another that desperately need enhancing. Maybe this is a way to show off some of these once they've been enhanced? In some case the minimum 5x increase used by

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I concur. The SOIUSA system is interesting, but it has its flaws and should not be used in Knowledge in general, or at least it should be used carefully (see for instance

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Looks excellent - a really great intro to the region. It could maybe do with a DYK section, too. (I tried to add a recent news story, but must be doing something wrong).

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Good idea. I think I prefer the DYK section to the recent news, since the latter tends not to be well maintained IMHO. I'm happy to change it if that's the consensus.

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sometime, and maybe enhancing it might bring back a few pleasant memories, too! As for "all the major mountains in the Alps have been covered, yes?" . . .I think, no!

322:! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you! 66: 3016:, and seems more of a tourist destination/hotel than a refuge. At an altitude of 2,372 metres it's just 200m from the terminus of a rack and pinion railway line, the 353:

I've created (by translation) the five wanted articles listed that are linked to German Knowledge. If any of the others are on German Wiki I may create those too. --

2781:

in Courmayeur was deleted in 10 days over the christmas period, despite a clear demonstration of good faith in investigating ownership with the Italian authorities

3005: 563: 2911:

banner. That is ok for ranges, passes, geology etc. (and I was planning to propose it) but not glaciers, lakes or even mountaineering (which is in the scope of

759:

the Alps - or indeed anywhere else for that matter? The categories I can find relate to their nationality, not their sphere of achievements. The sortable table

191: 1535: 343: 241: 3106:. (It's owned by the CAI and is on the Italian/French border, and mostly accessed from Italy.) Equally, I would expect an English article to refer to the 2590: 382: 2887: 2823: 2773:

and the rules applying in individual countries. Obviously, if the usual amount of time has passed for copyright to have expired, this won't be an issue.

1520:

questions - I've not much involvement in article assessments or the auto-population of tables. Just interested in understanding the process, that's all.

112: 2915:). But that obviously doesn't mean we can't use this project to improve all related Alpine-related topics, we just won't see them in the super table... 2234:

Classic mountaineering routes (ie the well-known but more challenging routes, arranged by face Brouillard, Brenva, Peuterey Ridge, Freney Pillar etc)

2068: 362: 1380: 2952:) to have an "alps" parameter in the banner template in the same way than the WP:Mountains banner. Then WP:Alps would be, technically, a centralized 2830:

Hi, just to say that I'm currently working on creating the missing Austrian two-thousanders in the above list by translation from German Knowledge.

573:

I've just been taking a holiday. I'll be back to do more mountains. Many of them are still just stubs, so there's plenty of work to be done here. --

3099: 2782: 2051: 1870: 750: 47: 17: 3152:

as "Hut", but leave the rest of the name, so I've copied that until now. Where the hut is named after a city and has the German adjectival ending

2893:

That looks good to me. I'm happy that we're about Alpine-related topics, not just the mountains of the Alps (which are amazing none the less!). --

533: 518: 472:

so you need to list summits above 4000 m there (otherwise there will be people thinking there are no such summit in the Alps). On the other hand,

2824: 682:

OK, now done. If there's no response to our query concerning the article overview table, I'll contact a UK colleague who may be able to advise.

2619: 2647:

I see that SOIUSA at least agrees with the Alpine Club classification of the Eastern Alps (AVE) on one essential point: the limit between the

1623:

have a series of questions with any positive answer adding one point of notability (0 points=low, 3 points and more=top). Here is an example:

263: 2716:

Totally agree with all those points. I'm steadily adding new articles and expanding existing articles by translating them from German Wiki (

480:

because it's more a climbing list than a mountain list (many of the listed summits aren't technically mountains). In short you can see the

1371:. The links need expanding and reviewing, but the basic structure is there and up and running. It's wider than just the mountains though. 411: 1576:

Signalkuppe or Parrotspitze. I suspect this just needs a tweak to put Lyskamm and the Ag. de B. into Mid-importance ranking, defined as

281:(Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) 1554: 766:

I was also curious whether first ascensionists are, by default, notable. I searched the WikiProjectMountains archive for discussion on

481: 469: 445: 435: 1760:

I just moved the 4000 m subsidiary peaks to the mid category (they are in general less than 150 m prominent, like Nordend and co, but

627:

doesn't seem to show many articles of any grade, which is a bit odd, and even the Matterhorn at B-class/Top-importance isn't counted.

509:

energies to the many important mountains that have very poor articles and try to improve them - this is a far bigger task! Thoughts? {

3198: 2041: 3114:, but saw no consistency in naming here at all, either of huts or of categories. Just look at huts listed in Italy and Switzerland. 2119:

Put biennial Elevation data into a table for future updating every 2 years. (Needs better clarification of 'official' height, too.

719:

No worries. I think we need to keep links to those discussion. I changed the template, not sure if it looks really better though.

3134:

and one has to question why Refuges of the Alps is the only one so-named. Doesn't it need changing to Mountain Huts of the Alps?

833: 780:

The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field.

3164:. I'd prefer Innsbruck Hut and Ravensburg Hut but we need to show that English sources use those names. Where the name ends in 1296: 1282: 2837:, we probably ought to look at improving the referencing on other mountain "huts" and adding the missing ones there too. -- 2532: 2451:

too! Great expansion of this article. Hope it gets a DYK. We should also get it reviewed for at least a B-Class article. --

1605: 1578:

This article is relatively important to this project. The highest peaks in a mountain range generally fall into this class.

1475:, although they don't have a table themselves, so we may have to try a project like Trains where they know how to do this. 541: 311:

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that

3004:

I have not formally proposed it yet, but I can see no reason for keeping the article on the 'mountain hut' known as the

1490:

I saw the reply to your crie-de-coeur on their talk page, but I'm not sure I followed the answer. What's the next step?

1839: 1601: 329: 79:

I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea to be a little pro-active in inviting membership of the project? Perhaps

2815:

only upload summit photos containing a modern summit statue if it is incidental to the view, and not the main feature.

1473:

Knowledge talk:WikiProject Mountains#Template help and conversion of WikiProject Mountains of the Alps to a task force

2138:

Elevation (currently unclear and very complex – maybe a tabular form. Needs a clear statement of 'official' height.)

3168:

I've resisted the temptation to change the name to "Foo House" although there is a translation logic in doing so. --

2228:

First ascents (first summer/winter ascents and traverses from either side, plus key new routes e.g. Peuterey Ridge)

2074:

2840 articles being above Start class - and 90% being just Stubs - there's clearly a huge amount for editors to do!

778:

has this to say, which I interpret as including first ascensionist and/ or those creating major new alpine routes:

90: 3233:

I started moving a few pages (when appropriate). I also asked the Refuges of the Alps category to be renamed (at

1716:

and subsidiary peaks of Monte Rosa), more flexibility like "either 1500 m prominence or range high point" etc...

485: 473: 441: 393: 179: 3237:). It looks like one editor started many stubs systematically using "refuge", so we'll have to move many pages. 2907:

No probs. However, if we really want to "physically" include other articles in this project, we have to use the

1906:' takes users to the European mountain ranges, it is logical to assume those 'not in the know' will believe the 296: 3032: 2132:

Topographic features (associated peaks, and glaciers, cross ref-ing to the wider Mont Blanc Massif article)

477: 465: 271: 74: 1902:

gives immediate clarity, and will be returned by a search just on 'Southern Alps'. As the article entitled '

2565:

system; a one-man reclassification of the Alps that AFAIK has yet to endorsed. Examples appear to include:

1572: 2770: 1934: 1899: 1866: 1831: 1102: 275:

and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my

2050:, a mountain hut in the Austrian Alps run by the German Alpine Club, has been nominated for deletion at 1941:

which I did not get time to comment on. I'm going to open a further move request to widen the debate. --

3242: 2985: 2920: 2664: 2609: 2434: 2366: 2346:

It gets my vote. I'm not sure if there's a standard layout for mountain articles, but this looks good.

1818:

The above move request was closed within a day as a "technical closure". The result is that, currently

1789: 1751: 1721: 1683:

in the top category with (0,1,1,1,0) all the remaining 4000ers in the high category with (0,1,1,0,0),

1543: 1391: 1249:

In due course, maybe the online resources could help expand the main Project page, too. Any thoughts?

724: 695: 493: 401: 141: 38: 686:

think they have never been discussed anyway. But at least we have pretty accurate lists of mountains (

119: 196: 3024: 328:

To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to

1784:, I think there is still room for a few additional summits there..). Let me know if you disagree. 2872: 2556: 854:

as prompts for future work to reference new route info gleaned from the foreign language pages.

367: 319: 313: 301: 3131: 2789:

has equally been flagged for deletion, as has been inextricably linked to another image of the

1979: 1823: 1627: 1559: 612:

Agree, there's still a lot of work to be done. And some featured articles would be good too! --

591: 524:

And not forgetting DF5GO who has created some very important Alpine pages in recent months... {

156: 3028: 2855:

BTW: I've only today just discovered the superb little setting in Knowledge's Preferences: -->

2104:

Improve English/grammar and remove irrelevant or repeated content. Clarify complex paragraphs.

2092:

Lay out a plan on the Mont Blanc Talk page to encourage wider support, these tasks to include:

161: 3238: 2981: 2916: 2660: 2624: 2605: 2601: 2570: 2566: 2470: 2430: 2362: 1785: 1747: 1717: 1539: 1387: 760: 720: 691: 489: 397: 3285: 3257: 3215: 3173: 3156:, it contradicts the usually WikiProject German convention where we drop the ending. Hence 3056: 2957: 2898: 2842: 2729: 2679: 2638: 2586: 2574: 2517: 2456: 2351: 2059: 1946: 1847: 1613: 1558:

would suggest that any of what I would innocently call the 'main' 4000mer summit peaks (eg

1510: 1480: 1454: 1419: 1376: 1333: 807: 767: 673: 659: 617: 578: 553: 454: 426: 389: 378: 358: 348: 237: 187: 85: 2402:

was needed, and have now put some of the content I had originally thought might go in the

2101:

Temporarily add citation or clarification needed tags to challenge all uncited statements.

893:

Eastern Alps The Classic Routeson the Highest peaks. (1992 English translation) D.Siebert

8: 3271: 3188: 3139: 3040: 2961: 2935: 2908: 2883: 2862: 2802: 2743: 2707: 2538: 2487: 2412: 2389: 2336: 2021: 1961: 1927: 1736: 1590: 1525: 1495: 1440: 1405: 1360: 1348: 1254: 1242: 1231: 1220: 1209: 1198: 1187: 1176: 1165: 1152: 1141: 1130: 1119: 1089: 1078: 1067: 1048: 1030: 1019: 1008: 997: 986: 975: 964: 953: 942: 931: 920: 909: 898: 887: 876: 821: 791: 710: 632: 599: 529: 514: 253: 220: 3073:

details in mountaineering guidebooks. (I specifically chose 2,500m as a cut-off in the

2561:...what is more doubtful are the made-up ranges and article names that are based on the 1328:

If people think this is useful, we could easily create a subpage of the project for it.

215: 3066: 3017: 2969: 2965: 2949: 2945: 2912: 3074: 3013: 2399: 2380: 2323: 2322:

Care needs to be taken throughout to separate information more relevant to the wider

2114: 1991: 1878: 3115: 937:

The Mont Blanc Massif - the 100 finest routes (1975 english translation) G.Rebuffat

846:

turned down, partly on the grounds of notability, but mainly lack of citations (see

3161: 3127: 3079: 3031:, and am work up fuller content on the glacier as a whole. I've left a note on its 3009: 3000:

2 Proposals: Delete a Mountain Hut article and rename Mont Blanc glacier flood page

2977: 2834: 2047: 1676: 1668: 503: 318:

easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested,

3012:

which we discussed recently, this hut is not in a significant location within the

3281: 3253: 3211: 3169: 3157: 3052: 2973: 2894: 2838: 2725: 2675: 2634: 2582: 2513: 2478: 2452: 2347: 2055: 1942: 1843: 1814:

Proposed disambiguation of Southern Alps (New Zealand) and Southern Alps (Europe)

1708: 1609: 1582: 1506: 1476: 1450: 1415: 1372: 1329: 847: 803: 771: 669: 655: 613: 574: 549: 450: 422: 374: 354: 339: 287: 276: 233: 205: 183: 80: 2054:. The outcome of this may decide the fate of all similar Alpine hut articles. -- 1764:

Castor, Pollux and Aiguille de Bionnassay) and moved a few to the top category (

948:

Valais Alps East Selected climbs.(199() L.Swindin & P.Fleming - Alpine Club

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3267: 3234: 3184: 3135: 3036: 2931: 2879: 2858: 2798: 2739: 2703: 2692: 2534: 2483: 2408: 2385: 2332: 2082:

focus on. Could we not get it to GA or even FA standard? What do people think?

2017: 1957: 1923: 1869:: the latter should move to the former. Feel free to join in the discussion at 1781: 1777: 1732: 1704: 1656: 1586: 1521: 1491: 1436: 1401: 1344: 1250: 1238: 1227: 1216: 1205: 1194: 1183: 1172: 1161: 1160:

Alpine Climbing: Techniques to take you higher (2004) M.Houston & K.Cosley

1148: 1137: 1126: 1115: 1085: 1074: 1063: 1062:

In Monte Viso's Horizon - climbing all the Alpine 4000m peaks (1991) W.McLewin

1044: 1026: 1015: 1004: 993: 982: 971: 960: 949: 938: 927: 916: 905: 894: 883: 872: 817: 787: 706: 628: 595: 525: 510: 249: 136: 126: 763:

is unfortunately not sortable by anything other than the first-named climber.

3119: 3107: 3103: 3087: 3083: 2622:

has been officially accepted by the German and Austrian Alpine Clubs and the

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Article class and importance table, conversion of the project to a task force

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There has been a surprisingly rapid (1-day) discussion and decision to move

1891:

my mind. Here's my draft response - do tell me if I've got this all wrong:

2738:

OK, Good luck! And the Zugspitze is looking a pretty fine article now, btw.

2652: 2648: 2597: 2003: 1987: 1874: 1660: 464:

I think the two lists are quite different and the overlap isn't a problem.

172: 131: 688:

Knowledge:WikiProject Mountains of the Alps#Lists of mountains of the Alps

332:. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X. 146: 2790: 2764:

Mountain artworks and copyright infringement in France, Italy or Slovenia

2527: 2497: 2474: 1672: 1368: 1361: 775: 226: 2157:

Pre-history/archaeology (if available?) Origin of name 'Cursed Mountain'

1696: 3123: 3095: 2786: 2403: 2376: 2327: 2078: 1769: 1680: 1652: 1648: 1567: 1299: 1285: 335: 283: 3065:

I've now added text and citations about the Nid d'Aigle refuge in the

2769:

requiring explicit permission from the artist or their relatives. See

2724:

meaning, not the SOIUSA definition. I'll start taking a look at this.

1922:

Any clarity that can be added here would be appreciated by this user!

1571:

Low-importance. Other big, serious and stand-alone 4000mers, like the

2778: 2717: 1700: 1684: 981:

Bernina & Greaglia Selected Climbs (1995) L Griffin -Alpine Club

843: 545: 167: 151: 1688: 770:

for guides/climbers and found nothing relevant. There is nothing in

2508:) do appear to exist. They're certainly listed in Reynolds classic 2013: 1919:

if that helps - and for precisely the same reasons I have outlined.

1861:

I have proposed that the primary topic for the disambiguation page

1773: 1171:

Extreme Alpinsism: Climbing light, fast and high (1999) M.F.Twight

1136:

In Search of Limits - climbing the Alpine 400m peaks (1994) M.Bles

992:

Pennine Alps East -Saas & Mischabel Chains (1975) Alpine Club

100: 3266:

Great stuff, thanks. (BTW: Mont Blanc massif is a DYK right now.)

2398:

Thanks for the feedback. In the end I felt a total rewrite of the

2107:

Encourage everyone to enhance individual sections, where possible.

1107: 926:

Mont Blanc Range Vol (1976 reprinted 1987) R. Collomb Alpine Club

2285:

Literature (include 7 line quote from Percey Shelley Mont Blanc)

1713: 1600:

Some of that data can be taken straight from other articles e.g.

1563: 1182:

Peaks, Passes & Glaciers (1981) W.Unsworth - The Alpine Club

1871:

Talk:Southern Alps (New Zealand)#Requested move 29 November 2015

1471:

I've placed a request for help on the parent project talk page,

970:

Bernese Oberland Selected climbs. (1993) L.Swindin -Alpine Club

959:

Valais Alps West Selected climbs. (1998) L.Griffin -Alpine Club

882:

The Alpine 4000m Peaks by the Classic Routes (1990) R. Goedeke

232:

Do we want to have slot on the project page for new articles? --

2562: 1765: 540:

Thanks Hudds. I'm currently going through the red links on the

1536:

Knowledge talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 9#Low-importance?

3069:

article, prior to proposing deletion, which I hope covers it.

1692: 1226:

Climbs on Alpine Peaks (1923) A.Achille Ratti (Pope Pius XI)

690:), so if you don't know where to start, have a look at them. 484:(and the following lists) as a mountain-related list and the 96: 2089:

Seek agreement from the Alps Task Force/discuss initial plan

2960:. In this manner, we would have as much tables as we want ( 2696: 1912: 1903: 1827: 1147:

World Mountaineering (1998) A.Salkeld ed. Mitchel Beazley.

2085:

My thoughts on a step-by-step improvement are as follows:

1084:

High Mountains of the Alps(1994) Dumler & Burkhardt

3102:, and certainly not the French name currently used. i.e. 2313:(suggest separating explanatory footnotes from citations) 1025:

Ecrins Park Dauphinw Alps (1986) R.Collomb - Alpine Club

668:@Parkywiki. Oh and do add yourself to the members' list. 421:. Then I'll probably break for a cup of tea... Gruß :) -- 2482:

on redoing that one - just don't tell anyone down under.

1822:

is an article about a mountain range in New Zealand and

1633:

Elevation: Is it listed amongst the 82 four thousanders?

1323:, 1st ed., Cicerone, Milnthorpe, ISBN 978-1-85284-538-4. 1274:, 2nd ed., Cicerone, Milnthorpe, ISBN 978-1-85284-497-4. 178:

I've also just added a new map and table with images at

2231:

Normal routes (i.e. the four popular routes of ascent)

1316:, 2nd ed., Cicerone, Singapore, ISBN 978-1-85284-261-X. 2695:

in a new, and as yet unadopted, classification of the

2163:

Ownership of summit (currently a very complex section)

388:

Thanks, yes I also think this project should become a

3086:, followed the next night by my least favourite, the 2618:

That's true, there isn't a universal schema, but the

1857:

Proposed primary topic for Southern Alps: New Zealand

1307:

Italy, Switzerland and Austria. A Geographical Study.

1114:

High Level -The Alps from End to End (1983) D.Brett.

1103:

The Glaciers of the Alps(1860) J.Tyndall (Searchable)

2113:

Define Mont Blanc more clearly and distinguish from

1003:

Pennine Alps Central (1975) R.Collomb - Alpine Club

2095:

Offering a revised layout structure for the article

1830:. So there is a move request to move the former to 862:instead. Here's a taste of what I was thinking of: 1840:Talk:Southern Alps#Requested move 30 November 2015 838:I'd like to offer a suggestion: I've just had a 3082:. As an aside, my favourite hut to visit was the 2691:xxxxx is the proposed name for a subdivision of 2375:Rather than immediately addressing issues on the 2077:Not all the gradings are perfect, but the iconic 1608:. But first we need to ensure the table works! -- 1043:Walking in the Dolomites G.Price -Cicerone Press 440:Hi team. There is clearly an overlap between the 2052:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Fritz Pflaum Hut 1270:Bourne, Grant and Körner-Bourne, Sabine (2007). 1073:Alps 4000 - 75 peaks in 52 days) (1994) M.Moran 18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Mountains of the Alps 2581:, unless the names are used outside of SOIUSA. 1647:With these criteria we would have for instance 782:I tend to find when I put new biog articles on 3197:The guidance on translation of names is here: 2620:Alpine Club classification of the Eastern Alps 1295:(3rd ed.). London: Chatto & Windus, 1972. 3252:Well done, Zach. We can help with the moves. 2379:article, I have decided to work first on the 2160:Early exploration (link to Top of Mont Blanc 1978:, I think that goes against the guideline at 564:It's time for this group to be closed I feel? 2496:Just a quick response between meetings: the 1639:Fame: Is it amongst the 6 great north faces? 915:Mont Blanc Massif Volume 2 (1992) L.Griffin 904:Mont Blanc Massif Volume 1 (1990) L.Griffin 2825:List of mountains of the Alps (2500–2999 m) 2110:Seek input from other Projects (eg Geology) 1986:, even if standing in the middle of them. — 1636:History: is the first ascent date recorded? 858:language wiki pages without checking them. 225:Also categories for some new groups in the 2069:Mont Blanc - a proposal to enhance article 1691:in the top category with (1,0,1,0,1), the 1279:Germany: A regional and economic geography 774:, although the 'Any Biography' section of 482:List of mountains of the Alps above 3000 m 470:List of mountains of the Alps above 3000 m 446:List of mountains of the Alps above 3000 m 99:, he must have some ideas about alpinism. 3199:Knowledge:WikiProject Germany/Conventions 2944:Maybe we should ask other projects (like 2469:Good to hear - and nice suggestions, too 2123:Here's a suggestion for a better layout: 1237:Baedeker's Switzerland (1895) K.Baedeker 2259:Air crashes (brief expansion worthwhile) 1215:Mountaineerig Holiday (1940) F.S.Smythe 751:Scope of Group and a Notability question 122:. Articles I've recently added include: 1826:is about the range in the south of the 1125:Companion to the Alps (1974) H.Merrick 14: 1695:in the top category with (0,0,1,1,1), 1675:in the top category with (1,1,1,0,0), 1642:Popularity: Has it tourist facilities? 1204:The Mountain Vision (1941) F.S.Smythe 1014:Pennine Alps Central (1875) R.Collomb 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2811:The lessons from this seem two-fold: 264:Comment on the WikiProject X proposal 1606:List of highest mountains of Germany 1108:The Alpine Journal (part searchable) 542:List of highest mountains of Austria 25: 2098:Check/read all references/footnotes 1555:WP:WikiProject_Mountains/Assessment 1309:Harrap, London, ISBN 0-245-51993-9. 412:Focus on Austrian three-thousanders 23: 2785:. Meanwhile the summit Madonna on 1602:List of Alpine peaks by prominence 436:Alpine three- and four-thousanders 330:Knowledge:WikiProject X/Newsletter 300: 24: 3305: 3148:The guide books I have translate 2307:(remove Matterhorn reference (??) 2042:Mountain hut article for deletion 1703:in the mid category (0,0,1,0,0), 3280:Seen it. Awesome - well done! -- 2443: 2421: 871:Walliser Alpen (1983) M.Vaucher 29: 3023:I also propose renaming of the 2331:others think of this proposal. 2144:Geology (seek help from Project 834:Suggestion: Key Reference Works 486:List of Alpine four-thousanders 474:List of Alpine four-thousanders 442:List of Alpine four-thousanders 180:List of Alpine four-thousanders 2600:, in total contradiction with 488:as a climbing-related list... 258:13:11, 13 September 2011 (UTC) 13: 1: 3290:21:22, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3276:20:55, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3262:19:08, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3247:15:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3220:14:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3193:11:59, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3178:09:13, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3144:02:43, 23 February 2016 (UTC) 3061:18:07, 22 February 2016 (UTC) 3045:20:38, 21 February 2016 (UTC) 2990:14:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC) 2940:23:41, 20 February 2016 (UTC) 2925:14:34, 19 February 2016 (UTC) 2903:07:23, 19 February 2016 (UTC) 2888:01:35, 19 February 2016 (UTC) 2867:00:45, 16 February 2016 (UTC) 2847:22:09, 14 February 2016 (UTC) 2807:01:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC) 2356:19:35, 21 December 2015 (UTC) 2341:14:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC) 1966:22:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC) 1951:21:37, 30 November 2015 (UTC) 1883:20:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC) 1852:21:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC) 1838:the disambiguation page. See 1794:17:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC) 1459:11:52, 27 November 2015 (UTC) 1445:10:08, 27 November 2015 (UTC) 1424:20:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1410:20:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1396:16:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1381:11:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1353:01:25, 16 November 2015 (UTC) 1338:14:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1259:13:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 826:23:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC) 812:15:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC) 729:15:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC) 715:00:39, 10 November 2015 (UTC) 534:02:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC) 519:01:59, 21 February 2015 (UTC) 478:List of mountains of the Alps 466:List of mountains of the Alps 459:20:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC) 431:21:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC) 3112:Category:Refuges of the Alps 2748:21:46, 9 February 2016 (UTC) 2734:09:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC) 2712:03:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC) 2684:18:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC) 2669:17:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC) 2643:18:17, 6 February 2016 (UTC) 2614:17:39, 6 February 2016 (UTC) 2591:17:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 2543:02:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC) 2522:17:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 2492:21:00, 31 January 2016 (UTC) 2461:18:08, 31 January 2016 (UTC) 2439:13:05, 31 January 2016 (UTC) 2417:20:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC) 2394:23:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC) 2371:17:09, 20 January 2016 (UTC) 2064:12:09, 5 December 2015 (UTC) 2026:10:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC) 1996:04:37, 1 December 2015 (UTC) 1756:17:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC) 1741:12:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC) 1726:15:51, 8 November 2015 (UTC) 1618:20:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC) 1595:19:48, 7 November 2015 (UTC) 1573:Aiguille Blanche de Peuterey 1548:17:30, 7 November 2015 (UTC) 1530:16:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC) 1515:12:53, 7 November 2015 (UTC) 1500:23:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC) 1485:19:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 1281:(2nd ed.). London: Methuen. 1277:Dickinson, Robert E (1964). 1272:Walking in the Bavarian Alps 796:14:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC) 700:14:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC) 678:18:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 664:18:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 637:12:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 622:08:10, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 604:01:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 406:15:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC) 383:18:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC) 363:18:05, 25 January 2015 (UTC) 344:16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC) 113:05:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC) 7: 3078:would be used, as with the 2771:Commons:Freedom_of_panorama 1935:Southern Alps (New Zealand) 1900:Southern Alps (New Zealand) 1867:Southern Alps (New Zealand) 1832:Southern Alps (New Zealand) 1585:gets on. All greats stuff. 292:22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC) 279:. Thank you for your time! 10: 3310: 3201:. It's normal to drop the 2833:Having averted the AfD on 2199:Modern tourist development 1193:Mountains (1975) J.Cleare 142:Johannisberg (High Tauern) 2272:Impacts of climate change 583:09:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC) 558:22:20, 3 March 2015 (UTC) 548:to a featured article. -- 498:20:26, 2 March 2015 (UTC) 476:is not a good target for 242:16:31, 10 July 2011 (UTC) 3025:Mont Blanc glacier flood 2265:Environmental protection 2250:Timeline of achievements 2180:Subterranean observatory 1367:Hi, finally created the 272:review the proposal here 192:06:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC) 2526:I don't doubt that the 2246:Exploits and incidents 468:currently redirects to 120:Category:Kitzbühel Alps 3132:Category:Mountain_huts 2128:Geography and Landform 1824:Southern Alps (Europe) 1628:topographic prominence 1560:Aiguille de Bionnassay 1319:Reynolds, Kev (2009). 1312:Reynolds, Kev (2005). 866:Alpine Climbing Guides 592:Aiguille de Bionnassay 305: 297:WikiProject X is live! 157:Hinterer Bratschenkopf 3006:Refuge du Nid d'Aigle 2631:Partizione della Alpi 2625:Partizione delle Alpi 2602:Geography of the Alps 2571:Northern Styrian Alps 2567:Eastern Rhaetian Alps 2282:Cinema and television 761:List of first ascents 394:WikiProject Mountains 304: 75:Need for more members 42:of past discussions. 2783:see here for details 2699:, located in yyyyyy. 2575:Tyrol Schistose Alps 2384:welcome, of course. 2296:(properly captioned) 2141:Weather (Permafrost) 1305:Rees, Henry (1974). 1291:Elkins, T H (1972). 1057:4000m peaks, general 3130:. In fact, look at 3029:Tête Rousse Glacier 2510:Walking in the Alps 2175:Janssen observatory 2046:The article on the 1626:Prominence: Is the 1386:Very good! Thanks. 1314:Walking in the Alps 221:Mittlerer Sonnblick 162:Großes Wiesbachhorn 95:could advise. As a 3122:, but in contrast 3067:Mont Blanc Tramway 3018:Mont Blanc Tramway 2269:Impacts of Tourism 2208:Mont Blanc Tunnel 1321:Walking in Austria 306: 3245: 3075:Mont Blanc massif 3035:seeking opinions. 3014:Mont Blanc massif 2988: 2923: 2667: 2612: 2437: 2400:Mont Blanc massif 2381:Mont Blanc massif 2369: 2324:Mont Blanc massif 2115:Mont Blanc massif 1921: 1915:being changed to 1792: 1754: 1724: 1630:more than 1500 m? 1546: 1449:Totally agree. -- 1394: 727: 698: 496: 404: 282: 197:More new articles 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3301: 3241: 3162:Ravensburger Hut 3128:Cabane du Trient 3080:Fritz Pflaum Hut 3010:Fritz Pflaum Hut 2984: 2919: 2835:Fritz Pflaum Hut 2720:is one example). 2663: 2608: 2447: 2446: 2433: 2425: 2424: 2365: 2218:Mountain refuges 2205:Aerial cable way 2186:Second World War 2048:Fritz Pflaum Hut 2007: 1892: 1788: 1750: 1720: 1677:Grandes Jorasses 1669:Barre des Ecrins 1542: 1390: 853: 723: 694: 492: 400: 308:Hello everyone! 280: 216:Großer Sonnblick 109: 103: 93: 88: 83: 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3309: 3308: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3300: 3299: 3298: 3158:Innsbrucker Hut 3002: 2875: 2873:Review of goals 2828: 2766: 2693:mountain ranges 2559: 2557:SOIUSA question 2444: 2422: 2071: 2044: 2001: 1980:WP:PRIMARYTOPIC 1859: 1816: 1709:Rochers de Naye 1583:User:Bermicourt 1469: 1365: 851: 848:Draft:Emile Rey 836: 753: 566: 506: 438: 414: 370: 368:Article counter 351: 299: 266: 206:Venediger Group 199: 107: 101: 91: 86: 81: 77: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3307: 3297: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3292: 3231: 3230: 3229: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3223: 3222: 3116:Mischabelhütte 3100:Rifugio Torino 3091: 3070: 3008:. 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Thanks! — 1673:Piz Bernina 1369:Alps portal 1362:Portal:Alps 227:High Tauern 164:- expansion 36:This is an 3282:Bermicourt 3254:Bermicourt 3212:Bermicourt 3170:Bermicourt 3124:Trient Hut 3096:Torino Hut 3088:Vallot Hut 3084:Durier Hut 3053:Bermicourt 2954:collection 2895:Bermicourt 2839:Bermicourt 2787:Tour Ronde 2726:Bermicourt 2676:Bermicourt 2635:Bermicourt 2583:Bermicourt 2514:Bermicourt 2479:Bermicourt 2453:Bermicourt 2404:Mont Blanc 2377:Mont Blanc 2348:Bermicourt 2328:Mont Blanc 2305:References 2079:Mont Blanc 2056:Bermicourt 1943:Bermicourt 1844:Bermicourt 1770:Monte Viso 1681:Matterhorn 1653:Monte Rosa 1649:Mont Blanc 1610:Bermicourt 1568:Monte Rosa 1507:Bermicourt 1477:Bermicourt 1451:Bermicourt 1416:Bermicourt 1373:Bermicourt 1330:Bermicourt 1300:B0011Z9KJA 1286:B000IOFSEQ 804:Bermicourt 670:Bermicourt 656:Bermicourt 614:Bermicourt 575:Bermicourt 550:Bermicourt 451:Bermicourt 423:Bermicourt 390:task force 375:Bermicourt 355:Bermicourt 234:Bermicourt 184:Bermicourt 3268:Parkywiki 3185:Parkywiki 3136:Parkywiki 3037:Parkywiki 3033:Talk page 2962:mountains 2932:Parkywiki 2880:Parkywiki 2859:Parkywiki 2799:Parkywiki 2779:Emile Rey 2740:Parkywiki 2718:Zugspitze 2704:Parkywiki 2535:Parkywiki 2484:Parkywiki 2409:Parkywiki 2386:Parkywiki 2333:Parkywiki 2311:Footnotes 2018:Parkywiki 1958:Parkywiki 1924:Parkywiki 1834:and make 1733:Parkywiki 1701:Piz Roseg 1685:Zugspitze 1587:Parkywiki 1522:Parkywiki 1492:Parkywiki 1437:Parkywiki 1402:Parkywiki 1345:Parkywiki 1251:Parkywiki 1239:Parkywiki 1228:Parkywiki 1217:Parkywiki 1206:Parkywiki 1195:Parkywiki 1184:Parkywiki 1173:Parkywiki 1162:Parkywiki 1149:Parkywiki 1138:Parkywiki 1127:Parkywiki 1116:Parkywiki 1086:Parkywiki 1075:Parkywiki 1064:Parkywiki 1045:Parkywiki 1027:Parkywiki 1016:Parkywiki 1005:Parkywiki 994:Parkywiki 983:Parkywiki 972:Parkywiki 961:Parkywiki 950:Parkywiki 939:Parkywiki 928:Parkywiki 917:Parkywiki 906:Parkywiki 895:Parkywiki 884:Parkywiki 873:Parkywiki 844:Emile Rey 818:Parkywiki 788:Parkywiki 707:Parkywiki 629:Parkywiki 596:Parkywiki 546:Zugspitze 526:Huddsblue 511:Huddsblue 277:talk page 250:Ericoides 168:Hohe Dock 152:Bratschen 147:Eiskögele 67:Archive 2 61:Archive 1 2980:, etc). 2966:glaciers 2796:see here 2651:and the 2300:See also 2202:Railways 2135:Glaciers 2014:misnomer 1937:back to 1898:because 1774:Jungfrau 1697:Piz Palü 1505:peaks.-- 772:WP:SPORT 504:Closure? 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