305:. Comments are split between those favouring the town as primary, based on its longer-term significance primary topic as well as questions over whether the camp really is just called "Ohrdruf"; and those who feel that the extra page views of the camp give it a claim to primacy. Policy and evidence-wise, both of these arguments can be sustained so the result here is that there is no consensus either way. Given that the original long-term status quo, prior to a recent undiscussed
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497:). "Ohrdruf" is best known in English speaking countries as the concentration camp toured by Patton and Eisenhower. Pageviews strongly suggest that readers who search "Ohrdruf" are more likely to be looking for the camp. (How many readers will type out "Ohrdruf concentration camp", especially on a mobile device?) Therefore, this page should not be moved. (
749:, the fifth largest city in Germany and the birth place of Handel, does require disambiguation. In WW2 so much was damaged in Ohrdruf, including the church. In the 1970s, it was sometimes possible to visit the DDR, including Weimar, Eisenach and Buchenwald. At that stage, the bomb-damaged Bach House in Eisenach had not been spruced up: the
963:
The following comments were written by Carl
Peterson, President of the Division Society: When our Tour of Rememberence: (Fall of 1999) reached Ohrdruf, no one in authority in the area was available to guide us or talk to us about the place. It is currently a German Army training center. All vestiges
845:
For clarity: I'm unconvinced that users would generally "expect" to find the concentration camp when typing only "Ohrdruf" in a search engine: there are some peaks in readership of the concentration camp page, which are indeed much higher than the peaks for the town, but no clear indication that the
606:
are telling to be sure. The dab page gets 21 views a day, but no more than one of those appear to go forward to the town. The rest seem to go forward to the camp. Also crucial to PTOPIC is "long-term significance", and the town of
Ohrdruf is the hands-down winner in that category. I see no need to
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for the
Ohrdruf name, as has been shown now in the discussion area below, so the town should not have been moved away from that page name without discussion, and moving back could be treated as a technical page move (which preferably should have been operated before a RM discussion).
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of Luther was the place to see. The very small Bach museum in the ruined church of
Ohrdruf is a curiosity, but not a substitute. The proximity to the concentration camps in Thuringia seem more significant, particularly from the point of view of 20th century history.
882:
Indeed, you didn't bring anything to the discussion that demonstrably supports your preconceptions: I'm trying to find something at least, but am unsuccessful. In other words, lack of evidence does not support having the concentration camp as primary topic – compare
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Still, totally unimpressed with evidence as presented. Seeing it all, I also think some kind of POV is pushed. Ohrdruf is a (still existing) town in
Germany. People live in that town. They should not be stigmatised as living in a concentration camp. Same goes for
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I've moved the page because, although it's a famous cathedral, it's also the name of a famous concentration camp (which gets far more google hits). If that gets an article, this should become the dab page for both - or a page for the city itself.
569:
The place is the primary topic, has been for centuries, all things named for it should go second, even if infamous, and need natural or other dab. Yesterday I met an abbey which has an article in
English, but the town has not. We still say
805:
899:" is primary topic for the disaster. Similar for Ohrdruf: even if the concentration camp is the most significant part of the town's history, that doesn't mean that it would be the primary topic for the town's name. --
1064:. We are only concerned with helping our readers get to the articles they want to read, not at all what some people may or not think about our article title scheme. I have been following the steps in
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can always be referred to as "Ohrdruf", so we don't really know where most readers want to go after reaching "Ohrdruf". The best solution is to retain the disambiguation page where it is, and run a
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per Gerda Arendt's comment. This is the only town named "Ohrdruf," so there's nothing to distinguish there, and a hatnote can take care of the people looking for the concentration camp.
964:
of the place had long since been dismantled and bull dozed over to the extent that it was simply open ground on a ridge line over which German troop units conducted training exercises.
420:
the 2nd nomination was added on 9 August 2020, so this request should stay open and active for at least seven days following that date, that is until 14:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC).
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Second step: you completely failed that one, using general search engine results which, per the guidance, "may be problematic due to limited sources, open interpretation, and
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We should also consider how many people are clicking the links. The strong pageviews differential strongly suggests that the links to the camp are being clicked more often.
974:
The purpose of this story is to fill in the blanks for some and/or refresh the memories of others who had first hand knowledge of the
Ohrdruf Concentration Camp because ...
344:– Contextless (that is, without referring to WWII, holocaust, concentration camps, etc), "Ohrdruf" generally refers to the town. The name of the town is used as such as a
1038:, my OP example – the musician should not be stigmatised as living in a concentration camp, because some US war veterans fail to distinguish history from location. --
582:, the place had better chances to be found when some reader looks for such a camp. I bet almost any reader searching for Ohrdruf alone would mean the town, and there
490:
The concentration camp gets four times as many pageviews, and is often referred to by the name "Ohrdruf", without "concentration camp" attached (just a few examples
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So, no, even if the
Knowledge article on the town is visited far less than the page on the disaster that is named after it, that doesn't mean that the name "
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dab the town's article with the more specific qualifier "Thuringia". A hatnote to the dab page (if it is kept, and I think in this case the dab page
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1110:– none shown; besides, they will show that "Ohrdruf concentration camp" is a more popular name than "Ohrdruf" – no reason to move one to the other
541:
Actually, you have shown no such thing. I kindly request that you assume good faith and drop unsupported allegations of wrongdoing on my part. (
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move, was that the town was primary, the no-consensus outcome means that we revert to that situation, i.e. the pages are moved as proposed. —
977:
Indeed, with the addition "... Concentration Camp", to distinguish from the meaning of "Ohrdruf" as used earlier on that page. In short: this
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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that even in World War II context the unqualified expression "Ohrdruf" would be generally used to refer to the concentration camp.
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I compare to the village, and see a big difference, as
Ohrdruf is not a village but a major town with importance in history. --
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924:) "Ohrdurf was a Nazi concentration camp" is a common phrasing, I doubt the same is true of "Chernobyl was a disaster...". (
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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bias" – the more specific searches have not been used or presented, nor will likely show anything useful in this context.
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Which taken at face value is utter nonsense: Ohrdruf was established many centuries before Nazis even existed.
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615:) can be used after the page move to aid readers who want to read about the camp or another Ohrdruf mystery.
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1068:, to determine the primary topic. You have not. So please don't make unfounded accusations of pov-pushing. (
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Article traffic statistics: have been presented, showing that 4x as many readers are interested in the camp
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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with
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I kindly request that you assume good faith and drop unsupported allegations of wrongdoing on my part. (
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gets much higher pageviews, but we don't know how many of them would search for just "Ohrdruf", whereas
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This is a small town, formerly in the DDR, where Bach spent five years as a schoolboy. In comparison,
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referred to as just "Ohrdruf", not "Ohrdruf concentration camp" in many places (just a few examples
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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by creating special-purpose redirects for the two and measuring the outgoing traffic for each. --
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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These comparisons are on different scales, making them pretty useless for determining anything. (
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This reads to me as if you'd argue differently if only Ohrdruf had not been bombed. Really? --
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to bypass search engine bias. Result: six out of ten results on the first page mean the camp
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concentration camp page is generally accessed by typing only "Ohrdruf" in a search box. --
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taken as meaning "Ohrdruf concentration camp" – which only happens in the next sentence:
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Chernobyl should probably be a disambiguation page. However, the concentration camp
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As I stated above, I did several searches, including the recommendation to use
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1052:"Contextless" or "context" contrary to your claims is nowhere mentioned in
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url gives "holocaust" context, and the foot of the page highlights "Camps"
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https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/ohrdruf-concentration-camp
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In November 1944, the Nazis established Ohrdruf south of Gotha, Germany.
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https://www.accuweather.com/en/de/ohrdruf/99885/weather-forecast/1002024
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https://exhibit-archive.library.gatech.edu/holocaust/ohrdrufdes.htm
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and Buidhe's analysis below. Favor King of Hearts' suggestion for
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40 mainspace pages link to the article on the concentration camp
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Third step: no "what links here" results shown: here they are,
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Up to that point in the narrative on that page, "Ohrdruf" is
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Conclusion of third step: the town is the primary topic. --
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a contentious and disruptive page move: the town is the
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https://www.expedia.co.uk/Ohrdruf.dx553248634649670450
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One website does not prove anything – counterexample:
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103 mainspace pages link to the article on the town
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http://www.89infdivww2.org/ohrdruf/ohrdrufintro.htm
477:, please explain your reasons, taking into account
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1204:Editor's support moved to Survey section above.
960:The content under the "Ohrdruf" header starts:
1036:Johann Christoph Bach (organist at Ohrdruf)
578:, not even for an only topic. Also, called
350:Johann Christoph Bach (organist at Ohrdruf)
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1009:WWII: The National WWII Museum New Orleans
475:polling is not a substitute for discussion
282:The following is a closed discussion of a
1097:Re. "I have been following the steps in
1270:Start-Class WikiProject Cities articles
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955:89th Infantry Division of World War II
945:Taking your examples in same order:
812:and revisit in a month or three. --
479:Knowledge's policy on article titles
301:The result of the move request was:
197:This article is within the scope of
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303:No consensus ⇒ Pages moved back
135:This article has been rated as
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467:, then sign your comment with
219:and see a list of open tasks.
115:Knowledge:WikiProject Germany
109:and see a list of open tasks.
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393:08:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)—
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702:Ohrdruf concentration camp
700:: I would even argue that
644:Ohrdruf concentration camp
580:Ohrdruf concentration camp
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360:for the "Ohrdruf" name. --
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613:Ohrdruf (disambiguation)
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933:
914:
888:
870:
844:
841:
838:
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784:
770:Gerda Arendt
743:Weak oppose.
742:
728:Gerda Arendt
697:
680:
671:
666:
661:
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639:
617:
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588:Gerda Arendt
583:
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418:Relist note:
417:
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136:
96:
40:WikiProjects
979:contradicts
714:K.e.coffman
574:, not just
294:move review
213:settlements
30:Start-class
1249:Categories
828:Discussion
810:WP:DABTEST
683:per nom.--
652:WP:DABTEST
604:Page views
572:Lüne Abbey
396:Relisting.
386:Relisting.
373:Relisting.
897:Chernobyl
789:Ejgreen77
657:King of ♥
642:for now.
250:Page move
814:JHunterJ
685:Ortizesp
601:Support.
473:. Since
257:Grutness
806:traffic
785:Support
756:Mathsci
706:Ohrdruf
681:Support
567:Support
335:Ohrdruf
330:Ohrdruf
311:Amakuru
307:WP:BOLD
139:on the
112:Germany
103:Germany
59:Germany
1188:buidhe
1080:buidhe
936:buidhe
873:buidhe
802:Oppose
751:castle
710:Belzec
698:Oppose
640:Oppose
609:should
553:buidhe
509:buidhe
449:Survey
391:(talk)
378:(talk)
222:Cities
205:cities
164:Cities
36:scale.
1060:, or
883:also:
400:DrKay
209:towns
1151:talk
1044:talk
905:talk
852:talk
818:talk
804:per
793:talk
774:talk
760:talk
732:talk
718:talk
689:talk
592:talk
576:Lüne
533:talk
520:this
470:~~~~
404:talk
366:talk
315:talk
264:wha?
1219:ed.
969:not
627:ed.
432:ed.
259:...
131:Mid
1251::
1229:)
1206:**
1202:**
1184:)
1180:·
1153:)
1076:)
1072:·
1056:,
1046:)
932:)
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915:is
907:)
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762:)
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549:)
545:·
535:)
527:--
505:)
501:·
461:or
406:)
337:→
328:→
317:)
286:.
207:,
1200:(
1182:c
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667:♣
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590:(
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531:(
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481:.
402:(
383:—
370:—
364:(
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143:.
42::
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