1791:'s article uses 1964 since that is when she had a small role in a film, but her autobiography discusses her performances with the London Youth Theatre in 1962 and 63. I feel sure that there are problems with authors, scientists, politicians etc. that others might discuss. I fear that we may not be able to get a more specific definition but I would say, at the very least, that the dates need a reliable source attached to them or they should be removed - or at least the start date should be replaced with a "?". I also would have no problem with the field being removed entirely as too vague.
1727:
made them famous; Bob Barker's years active are 1956-2007 because that is the period during which he hosted game shows, even though he had worked at radio stations during the 1940s and has continued to appear frequently since 2007 as guest hosts at different events. There are more examples that are even more ridiculous, but I simply cant recall any at the moment. I'm sure you've seen them, though. I suggest that some specific definition of the term be formulated, though to be honest I'm not sure which of the two I've presented would be most appropriate....
737:(8000-odd transclusion). On the other hand military templates (WP:Milhist) seem to use underscores or run words together. In any case, forcing a high use template to change seems like making work for the hell or it, and likely to cause a lot of talkpage action in various wikiprojects and for little reward. Best course I can recommend is to reword the MoS to state that template parameters should be "clear in meaning" and that use of space or underscores to separate words is good practice to achieve that.
31:
974:
1519:, there was one editor who did not believe he is white until a direct reference to him referring to himself as white was tracked down and provided. I myself only looked up his article out of a desire to know whether he was black or white (or some other race) As such, and seeing as he is a personality known for speaking about racism, primarily racism against blacks, it seems appropriate to add his race to the article.
1185:
273:
is citizenship refers to legal citizenship, whereas nationality refers to some sort of identification with a country other than the country of one's birth. Thus, one could be born in
Venezuela but somehow identify with Hungarian national identification. I'd rather avoid discussing that distinction in this topic because it's very thorny. My proposal is simpler.
2436:". I find "inter" for this purpose wince-worthy; just because many people make a mistake doesn't mean an encyclopedia aspiring to asymptotically approach high quality should also settle for that mistake. But I do take from its prevalence the important insight that nobody else has found a really good solution to this problem either. --
1523:
was deemed giving his race undue weight. A compromise was eventually reached where Tim Wise's race was moved as a single word to the info box. Unfortunately, there is no entry for "race" in the info box so "ethnicity" was chosen. Some editors have complained that "White" and "Caucasian" are not truly ethnicities.
2293:(earth) -- but we shouldn't be misled by an over-literal understanding of the meaning of a word that despite its etymology has long been used to refer in an expanded sense to the depositing of bodies even when no underground burial is involved. Bodies placed in sarcophagi, for instance, are often referred to as
2011:. "Rest" has very strong, soothing connotations that are meant to soften the sting of death for the survivors, and I disagree with Senator2029 that the term is only "slightly" euphemistic. It is strongly euphemistic, and that's why it springs to mind when compiling a short representative list like the one in
1943:"Burial place" assumes a cemetery or mausoleum. What if the person's ashes are in an urn in someone's living room? Or if the ashes are scattered somewhere as a memorial? While "resting place" is slightly euphemistic, it does seem to encompass these other possibilities better than "burial place" does.
1726:
This term is inconsistently used in infoboxes. For some individuals the term seems to refer to the years during which they worked; Betty White's "years active" are 1939-present, because she got her first job in 1939. In other articles, the term refers to the years during which they worked at whatever
1358:
In some cases life is complicated. Obviously editors will always have the choice of which form to use in any particular case. The problem with the Jesus box is that "father", "mother" etc are not in the left hand column (and brackets are already used for other complications). I'd really rather not
2450:
Repeating other people's mistakes, once they gain sufficient currency, is more or less exactly what often ends up happening. Once a usage enjoys widespread currency, it no longer makes much sense to speak of a "mistake", because it's become just how people talk. You and I may agree that a particular
1575:
it were desirable for one particular article. Some things should not be reduced to a single word, and "race" in an infobox is one of them. If there is some encyclopedic reason to explain that someone is "white", that should be done in the article using as many words as are required, with references.
187:
to determine if a workgroup can demand that all infoboxes be removed from articles they control. For instance can
Project New Jersey remove all infoboxes from biographies of people born in New Jersey, or can Project Catholicism demand that all infoboxes be removed from biographies of people that are
2024:
I agree with Alan and
Darwinek that covering every possible means of disposing of a dead body in a single term would be ideal, but it may be impossible. If no such perfect term can be found, the best solution is whatever comes closest without any whiff of euphemism clinging to it. "Burial place" is
1522:
However, even after somebody tracked down references to Tim Wise calling himself white, one editor adamantly refused to allow race to be mentioned in the intro paragraph where it was added via a single adjective. All other locations required an entire sentence in order to sound encyclopedic, which
272:
I'd like to propose a change to the documentation regarding these two fields. Currently, the documentation briefly discusses the interrelationship between the two. However, it doesn't say when you should use them independent of that interrelationship. Based on previous discussions, my understanding
1879:
That doesn't do much for this discussion and again that is not what is stated in the instructions for the field nor has it ever been as far back as I have checked. Perhaps you could provide links to those previous discussions. As these infoboxes are not used outside of
Knowledge I am not sure what
1703:
I agree that 'Race' should not be included when 'ethnicity' already is - it would only lead to redundancy (or edit wars) when people try to include both. No, they're not quite the same thing, but 'ethnicity' is effectively used as a less contentious euphemism for 'race' where appropriate. I'd also
1410:
discussing the subject's religion are described in the article, then there is no reason to suppose that the subject's religion is sufficiently significant to warrant highlighting in a simplistic label in the infobox. The text in the article should be more than something like "X attended a
Catholic
2042:
should change, and if the outcome is to dictate by fiat that "resting place" shall henceforth be considered non-euphemistic, I'll figure out some way to keep from undergoing an involuntary spasm of ineffectual vomiting ("retch." Collins
English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition.
1829:
Where does it state that in the documentation for the template or in the current instructions for how to fill in the field or in any past discussions. It most certainly has never been used in that narrow capacity and I can guarantee you it is not currently used that way in 1000's if not 100's of
1786:
Thanks for bringing this up. The field has always had major problems. First and foremost the start date should be sourced and it rarely is. Next, it makes no distinction between amateur and professional activities - most athletes are "active" from a young age. In the case of actors (as in Bob's
1787:
examples) it is often tied to their first film or TV performance and, although not referenced as such, IMDb seems to be where the date comes from. a) IMDb is not a reliable source and b) more importantly most people are "active" in that profession before they get a TV or film role. For example
2464:
But since encyclopedias, like dictionaries, ought to follow usage rather than prescribe it, I think the question is whether the word is commonly used that way rather than whether the usage accords with the purist's strict sense of accuracy. Here, for example, is an image of a monument to the
396:
I've made the change, essentially per your wording, although I changed "can't" to "cannot". I still think it's confusing because there's no distinction made between the meanings of nationality and citizenship (those distinctions have been raised in discussions but not transferred to the
2025:
not perfect, but it is close. If whatever was left of the body was scattered over the
Pacific Ocean, put in an urn on the family mantelpiece, shot into space, fed to piranhas, or disposed of in some other way, a footnote could be added to the location given if that seemed necessary.
2300:
At any rate, a cursory Google search reveals that any variety of above-ground disposal methods from inurnment to scattering are referred to collectively as "interment options," including placement in a
Columbarium. For although the word literally means a dovecote -- from the Latin
2410:
There seems to be consensus that "resting place" is godawful; what's lacking is consensus on what to do about it. Hence my question, in which I really didn't mean to seriously suggest "Location of remains" (I like your characterization of it), but was hoping to be clear on the
2140:
Not necessarily the correct naming of the params but the usage would be "|burial_place=Highgate
Cemetary" to give "Buried: Highgate Cemetary" in the infobox and "|burial_place=Manchester |burial_place_alt_name=Cremation" to give "Crematated: Manchester". Or something like
2071:"Intern" and "internment" refer to the confinement of prisoners of war, enemy aliens and the like. The word sought here is "inter," meaning to bury or entomb. "Interred" is suitable alternative to "resting place" that covers burial, entombment, depositing of ashes, etc.
2574:
is yet near broad acceptability of a change of basic meaning; acknowledge that you may disagree with my assessment of this; and suggest that, in seeking a consensus we'd both approve for this infobox parameter, we'd do well to seek somewhere removed from the meaning of
468:
also uses underscores, except for honorifics, where it uses a hyphen. I think a standard of underscores is best, as it is then clear, even to an inexperienced user, that the words are part of a single parameter and need to be copied exactly when using the template.
2308:"Interred" is perfectly adequate, is commonly used to cover all manner of depositing and disposal (even ashes dumped overboard are often described as having been "interred at sea"), and in any event represents a marked improvement on the execrable "resting place".
320:
I agree with this idea, though I would phrase the addition "Should not be used unless citizenship/nationality can't be inferred from the birthplace". This would cover disputed territories and territories which have changed hands (one could imagine cases where
2377:
Fair enough as to the first point, the disabling of the edit request: the request was premature. As to the second, a Google search will easily confirm that the word is indeed commonly used in the more expansive sense I've described -- and that nothing else
1880:
you are referring to in relation to academia, geneaology etc. All I can say is good luck on getting the field restricted to that narrow definition and in retroactively making the change to the info entered in that field that already exist.
304:
We have a lot of articles in which someone is born in New York and someone puts in "nationality=American". It's unnecessary to say the nationality if it's the same as where the person was born. The proposed documentation would make that
156:
2198:"Interred" is a suitable alternative because it is commonly used for burial or entombment of an intact body as well as the burial or depositing of ashes etc. I agree that "resting place" is a silly euphemism that ought to be replaced.
2501:...or, in other words, scattered into the sea, which, strictly speaking, isn't "interring" at all. But then again, by the same strict accuracy, to speak of being "buried at sea" doesn't make any sense either. Nevertheless, that's
361:
We have two editors in favor of making a change. Is that enough? If not, how do we generate more comments? (I left a TB a while ago for an editor with whom I had a discussion about this issue with respect to a particular article,
807:). (Thanks to editor Old Moonraker for researching this). The simplest way to implement this is add "organisation" as a keyword and note in the documentation that it should not be used in articles written in American English. --
2121:
I was just coming here to say the same thing. Unfortunately, a drawback to "place of burial" is that not everyone's remains are buried. Some remain in above-ground mausoleums; others are cremated and stored above-ground.
1238:. It is possible to merge the first into the second? ("Template:Infobox Christian leader" is by far better, but the merge is not so easy because in "Infobox bishop" there are some fields not present in the other). Thanks.
1555:, any such addition should be strongly couched as "only to be included if relevant to the subject of the article, such as advocates of racial equality or superiority whose actual race may not be widely known." --
2451:
usage is vile -- for instance, I wince every time I hear that people, rather than places, have been "evacuated" -- but who are we against so many? Hope not, but I suspect that usage is probably here to stay.
1391:
Not sure myself, but I would think that there should be at least a sentence or two on it in the main article text. If there is no mention in the main text then I would think that it's not very relevant. --
482:
I just quickly looked up a few infoboxes, going more-or-less randomly through the infobox categories (but trying to pick up the "big" ones where I saw them). Using underscores seems to be the most popular.
1254:
2552:
is not limited to ground (an example I see used on
Wiktionary is 'she buried her head in the pillow'). Burial doesn't seem to cover scattering of ashes, though, nor putting relics on display. <sigh:
1978:"resting place" is not a euphemism, because "rest" means "come to a stand" as well as "relax". The resting place is the last place their body, or what is left of it, ceases to change location.
291:
nationality - Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ.
280:
nationality - Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ.
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2322:...and "location of remains" is not an expression in common use, and has the added downside of sounding like a clue in a scavenger hunt or a game of geocaching gone terribly wrong.
1143:
Now fixed in the sanfbox & testcases look ok. You can either wait a little while & I'll make the changes live if a few more hours or you can re-enable the edit request. --
227:
2401:
Although it may be something of a trivium, it's a rather standard one; standard means people expect to find it, and in an encyclopedia that's a pretty good reason for inclusion.
188:
Catholic? In this case Project Gilbert and Sullivan are removing all infoboxes from articles that are under their project scope. Please join the debate and keep an open mind. --
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that "resting place" is not appropriate language in a WP article but then forcing that term into potentially every biographical article on the site. Either this template or
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I've made a version in the sandbox with the changes. I'll wait a while to see if there are any further comments and the make the change later if everyone is happy. --
1526:
Therefore, can we please add "Race" to the person info box template so that people confused by Tim Wise's various writings can come here to see whether he is white?
1381:
Instructions indicate that the religion parameter should be used "if relevant". What does "relevant" mean here? What would make an individual's religion "relevant"?
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I'd like to point out that "organization" is British English too, so any change here should not imply that "organisation" is the only way to spell that word in BE.
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Since I'm not currently up to writing a scholarly paper about venue-appropriate treatment of changing usage, I'll just observe that I do not believe the sense of
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That said, as this is Knowledge and not FindAGrave, I'm not completely persuaded of the usefulness of this field anyway -- only that "resting place" is godawful.
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race. What people call races are ethnicities. (3)I've already seen edit wars dealing with ethic backgrounds in the text. This would create more edit warring. --
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articles which explicitly distinguish between the two. The wikipedia consensus seems to be that "race" is biological, while "ethnicity" is cultural. --
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1042:, this change results in the removal of the birthplace and deathplace from the infobox as seen on an article, I don't think doing this is a good idea.
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I think it will make things more complicated and infoboxes to become larger. Use of parentehses is acceptable. Jesus infobox looks OK to me. --
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As I indicate above, the parameter is needed for people whose birth and/or death dates are not known; it should not be used where they are.
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documentation). Still, it's better than before, in my view, and provides a basis for deleting unnecessary use of either field in articles.--
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Although it is possible, as Andy proved, to parse the euphemism out of "resting place" if you are determined to do so, the term definitely
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I recall discussion when it was added to this and/ or other templates. That's also how it's used in academia, genealogy, and so on.
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Since WP is not censored and we do not use euphemisms the "resting place" label should be changed to "internment" or suchlike. --
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note that whatever you call it, this parameter should only be used where it is highly relevant, and not just for the sake of it.
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I'd be inclined to use it only when birth or death dates are not known (e.g. for classical composers, mediaeval painters, etc)
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Please can we have these parameters to optionally replace parents? It would help the formatting of complicated cases (e.g.
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EditRequest disabled; I don't see any consensus, yet, and I'm not convinced by arguments that "Interred" is appropriate.
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2305:-- it evidently continues to perform adequately, not provoking undue confusion despite the total absence of pigeons.
1599:(1)There's too much talk of "race" today. We should be beyond that by now. (2)I believe there is only one race--the
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Only the item without the class works. If it has a class then it only seems to work if wrapped within an #if --
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114:: Party per pale, gu. and az., on a fesse, wavy, arg., three billets, of the second, between three garbs or.
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The solution would be to pick one general phrase, and then have a field for an alternate name. Sort of like
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That's very helpful; thank you I;ll put a pointer to this discussion, on the relevant MoS talk page.
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But what is most important here is the contradiction: Knowledge is sending a strong message in
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Good point, however an infobox does not need to take into account every single eventuality. --
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The various templates that are used in ship articles (under WP:SHIPS) are underscore free. (eg
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shows an example of an infobox where I've added heraldic information as notes, and here is the
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How about just "remains"? The field content could then specify "Buried at sea", "Cremated",
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a euphemism in practice. If it were not, it would not have been called out specifically in
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2160:. You may want to move this thread up there so the conversation can be kept in one place.
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school"āthere should be some discussion of how the adult subject regarded their religion.
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I've had to revert your sandbox changes, in order to make the edit request listed below.
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If what people call races are ethnicities, then what are what people call ethnicities?
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It's all ethnicities (I believe). It's about people's ancestral/genetic background. --
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Can we set up a tracking category (or categories) for instances of this template with
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I have no problem with rephrasing as long as the issue is clear for editors. Thanks.--
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isn't wrong, at least not if what is put into the sea is heavier than water, because
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1913:"Internment" could be ambiguous. "Burial place" seems a little bit more concrete. -
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I think that's the main idea. To put it more formally, I would suggest that if no
120:: Three wheat-ears, two in saltier, one in pale, or, encircled by a ducal coronet.
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This item was already being discussed just a few finger scrolls above this here
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Knowledge:Village pump (technical)/Archive 132#Template:br separated entries
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I can't see why that should be; can someone check/ debug my markup, please?
763:, "organisation" should be accepted as a keyword as well as organization. --
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where the information comes from, and is typical for English gentry. --
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Talk:Richard_Dawkins#Please_stick_to_one_spelling_convention this one
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to the infobox myself, but it still doesn't work on the info box of
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citizenship - Citizenship. See usage notes for nationality, above.
2253:. And "interred" may even exclude the possibility of a mausoleum.
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Multi-word parameter names should be separated with spaces, thus:
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Since no one's objected, I suppose you can just go ahead and edit
283:
citizenship - Citizenship. See usage notes for nationality, above.
126:: Labore omnia florent (trans. everything flourishes through work)
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Btw, I draw a rather different lesson from the prevalent use of "
1234:), the first is a stand-alone infobox, the second is redirect to
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Should not be used at all unless it is different from birthplace.
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Should not be used at all unless it is different from birthplace.
2579:. (Though, I admit, I was curious enough about the history of
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No, I do not think an infobox should have a "race" field, even
1091:}} * {{br separated entries|{{#if:1|<span class="test": -->
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123:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/reportererin/937120014/sizes/l
2212:"Interred" isn't any better than "Place of burial", as "to
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HarperCollins Publishers. 17 Oct. 2011. <Dictionary.com
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survivors who chose to have their ashes "interred" at the
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would allow that the remains may not have stayed put, and
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is indeed to place within the earth -- from Vulgar Latin
1927:
Agreed. I had trouble thinking of a suitable phrase. --
759:
Because of articles written in British English, such as
1441:? Then we can get them added; by a bot where possible.
1089:}} * {{br separated entries|<span class="test": -->
2518:
Yes, "dumping ground": just so. How about "plunked"?
2108:. Would not "place of burial" be simpler and better?
333:, etc. would need clarification in those fields). --
366:, but I guess he wasn't interested in commenting.)--
2415:we're trying to put a name to. In the same vein,
2583:to do a bit of reading in our dead-tree OED.) --
1321:Mother, Father, Adoptive mother, Adoptive father
433:. Should we change, or is the MoS out of step?
921:Infobox sportsperson: generic biography fields
203:That question is invalid, because they do not
2045:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retch
2265:"Location of remains" could work, though.
925:Should we add generic biography fields to
2137:|burial_place= |burial_place_alt_name=
1218:Now there are two different infoboxes:
1129:to see if anyone has any ideas why. --
14:
2158:Template talk:Infobox person#Euphemism
1663:That doesn't seem consistent with the
1087:* {{br separated entries|<span: -->
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1282:It was deleted, and now redirects to
1007:) to apply hCard microformat classes
268:Nationality/citizenship documentation
175:Deletion of infoboxes in biographies
25:
23:
2104:"Resting place" seems to be a bit
1001:Please sync from the the sandbox (
24:
2646:
1236:Template:Infobox Christian leader
1157:Thank you. When you're ready....
1040:Template:Infobox person/testcases
803:3:2 favor "organisation" though (
1359:write my own custom infobox. --
1183:
972:
29:
1092:With Class and If</span: -->
1038:Considering that, according to
735:Template:Infobox aircraft begin
287:My proposal (new text bolded):
238:How should display honorifics?
234:Honorifics in Infobox scientist
107:How about adding, for example:
2216:" means "to bury in a grave".
1485:. Your views will be welcome.
315:21:57, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
190:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
146:19:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
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655:Mix of spaces and underscores
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392:10:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
263:11:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
228:11:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
169:12:19, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
18:Template talk:Infobox person
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1958:20:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
1937:19:10, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
1923:08:31, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
1908:08:00, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
1278:23:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
995:to reactivate your request.
983:has been answered. Set the
731:template:infobox ship begin
383:Template:Infobox person/doc
376:17:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
354:00:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
340:00:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
198:02:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
132:: Palmer's Lodge, Elstree.[
103:Genealogy and heraldic info
10:
2651:
2048:.) every time I read it.--
1669:race/ethnicity in the U.S.
1408:reliable secondary sources
1253:I've nominated the former
415:Parameter naming standards
2423:has an admirable brevity.
1763:11:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
1737:14:20, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
937:Your comments are invited
855:
850:Infobox person/Archive 12
848:
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831:Infobox person/Archive 12
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240:Your comments are invited
185:Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte
1767:I completely agree with
1471:It is proposed to merge
1287:Infobox Christian leader
1090:With Class</span: -->
755:Use with British English
2277:The literal meaning of
1248:12:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
1228:Template:Infobox Bishop
1220:Template:Infobox bishop
1214:Template:Infobox bishop
329:, cities in the former
153:John Drinkwater Bethune
2417:Disposition of remains
1377:Religion "If relevant"
1088:No class</span: -->
626:infobox former country
586:infobox Egyptian deity
576:infobox amusement park
2613:"Launched into orbit"
1830:1000's of infoboxes.
606:infobox historic area
42:of past discussions.
930:Infobox sportsperson
671:infobox oil refinery
646:infobox organization
463:Infobox officeholder
420:According to the MoS
385:with the change. --
2234:location of remains
1665:race classification
1481:into this one; see
686:Infobox equilibrium
616:infobox prison riot
181:request for comment
151:The Wiki entry for
1439:|native_name_lang=
531:infobox manuscript
2236:, are we not? --
1528:I tried adding it
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2617:-- Rrburke
2544:Actually,
2520:-- Rrburke
2385:-- Rrburke
2324:-- Rrburke
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2200:-- Rrburke
2073:-- Rrburke
1553:my attempt
1084:How odd,
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985:|answered=
793:SlimVirgin
364:Bill Gates
161:Iantresman
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95:ArchiveĀ 15
90:ArchiveĀ 14
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73:ArchiveĀ 11
68:ArchiveĀ 10
2283:interrare
2251:See above
2162:MarnetteD
1894:Euphemism
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2110:Ignorant
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1661:Musdan77
1648:Musdan77
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1578:Johnuniq
1532:Tim Wise
1517:Tim Wise
1413:Johnuniq
1098:No class
775:Javaweb
305:clear.--
2599:ukexpat
2585:Pi zero
2438:Pi zero
2413:meaning
2303:columba
2238:Pi zero
2173:Moved.
1551:As per
1437:but no
819:Javaweb
809:Javaweb
765:Javaweb
205:control
39:archive
2267:Anomie
2255:Anomie
2218:Anomie
2124:Powers
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1749:(User:
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1230:(with
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